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A Harry Potter Quest: He who was not

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MysteryCPU said:
To even get into the tests, a symbol of all four houses needs to be attached to the entrance. So, that is the purpose of the tests.

As to the numbering, I don't agree with the method of attributing certain house traits to aspects of the puzzle. What I think is the numbering system told by the riddle itself:
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That would make sense if Jacob didn't think the exact opposite though.

Tabula Rasa said:
"It is 'the steps' that are of importance," you said, coming closer, thinking already of what to do after repairing the statue.

First you would have left someone behind. Now it seemed, that you needed to portray traits of a specific house for the second step.
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Jacob notes that we need to portray traits of a specific house for this riddle.

MysteryCPU said:
So, in otherwords, there are 3 Houses here: Ravenclaw, Slytherin, and Gryfindor in whatever order you want. There is one house that is left out- which would be the fourth house: Hufflepuff. Also, the order of the statutes where Hufflepuff is not mentioned (the 4th statue).
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Correct, there are 3 houses left. Ravenclaw, Slytherin, and Gryffindor. The order of the statues don't seem to matter, as those were for the previous riddle. It asked us the following:

So, say my children, who is amiss?
That they may remain, so the others see bliss.

Basically, what statue is missing? The answer was Hufflepuff. Then we move onto the next riddle with the three remaining house members.

MysteryCPU said:
So, looking at that, it means the fourth house (the only house not here and thus must be the fourth) is the first.

Which makes sense with the "your words must be reversed" because the only words that the trials required to be spoken "Hufflepuff" to leave someone behind (as the riddle notes) then reverses the previous words by brining them here. Thus, the "words must be reversed".

And, all that makes sense given the theme is how the four houses needed to work together. It would be odd if the test intentionally sidelined one house and then left them in the literal dark the entire time.
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A couple problems with this thought. Just because that house isn't here doesn't automatically make it the fourth house. If that were the case, then the rest of the riddle would be pointless, the answer would always be Hufflepuff then. It is the steps that are important. How do you reconcile the fact that the riddle tells us that Hufflepuff was our first step.

The three are here now, may smart or bereft,
For one foot they set down, three there still left.

Hufflepuff can't be both the first step and the fourth step?

Edit:
Basically, the whole problem I have with Hufflepuff being the answer is that seems to ignore Jacob's realization and the riddle explicitly stating that Hufflepuff was the first step as we left them behind:
Tabula Rasa said:
"It is 'the steps' that are of importance," you said, coming closer, thinking already of what to do after repairing the statue.

First you would have left someone behind. Now it seemed, that you needed to portray traits of a specific house for the second step.
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It just doesn't seem to fit well with what Jacob himself deduced.
 
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ShyGuy said:
Hufflepuff can't be both the first step and the fourth step?

Edit: Basically, we can't say that just because Hufflepuff isn't here that they are the fourth house. Because then all the other lines don't matter at all.

Edit2:
Basically, the whole problem I have with Hufflepuff being the answer is that seems to ignore Jacob's realization and the riddle explicitly stating that Hufflepuff was the first step as we left them behind:
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Note that Jacob's realization wasn't that each step exemplified one of the houses and their traits- merely that step 2 required him to exemplify an act of a house (bravery). However, I would agree that the 1st step = Hufflepuff, because it was the literal answer. And, nothing in the riddle said that each step exemplified any single house (though it seems to have been designed with the houses in mind: Ravenclaw to read French in AD 1000 England, Gryffindor to be brave enough to fix the broken statue, and probably Slytherin for trickery).

He outlines 3 steps and we can infer a 4th:
1. Hufflepuff (answer)
2. Repair Statue
3. Trick Statue
4. Answer to Riddle

The last step is the fourth (house and step), the fourth is the 1st (1st Step is Hufflepuff and also the fourth house).

Thus, the 1st and 4th step are the same. Which is, by Jacob's realization, Hufflepuff (1st step=Hufflepuff= 4th step).

For here to pass, your words (Hufflepuff) must be reversed (brining Hufflepuff back when our last words kept them out of this riddle). Also, I do like the persistence statement as saying the same answer x2 is certainly persistent.

Edit:
Or, if you absolutely think that each step = 1 house trait...

1. Hufflepuff (Sacrifice for the team and trust in team mates)
2. Gryfindor (Bravery in fixing a broken statue to fight you)
3. Ravenclaw (Making someone a fool requires someone that is clever)
4. Slytherin (Lying about who you are to solve a riddle is pretty Slytherin) (Which requires the lie of 1st step=4th step=Hufflepuff)
 
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Wait, the fourth is the first.

Slytherin is the fourth cause we tricked the statue thing, which is the fourth challenge.

And a true Slytherin would be in Hufflepuff?

Ignore me, I'm fucking stupid. I'll let the smart people work.
 
MysteryCPU said:
He outlines 3 steps and we can infer a 4th:
1. Hufflepuff (answer)
2. Repair Statue
3. Trick Statue
4. Answer to Riddle

The last step is the fourth (house and step), the fourth is the 1st (1st Step is Hufflepuff and also the fourth house).
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Shit, now I think I see where we are interpreting this differently. You take it to mean that our last step needs to become our first step and that becomes the answer where as I take it to mean that the last step is the answer.

Basically, you see it as
1. Hufflepuff (answer)
2. Repair Statue
3. Trick Statue
4. Answer to Riddle

Where as I see it as
1. Hufflepuff
2. Repair Statue
3. Trick Statue
4. Ravenclaw Answers Riddle (answer)

For me,
Tabula Rasa said:
The last step is the fourth, the fourth is the first.
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This line of the riddle is saying that there are only four steps and that our last step, our fourth step, is the first. I take this to mean that the last step is our answer (Ravenclaw). Whereas you take it to mean that the fourth step becomes the first step and that becomes our answer (Hufflepuff).

So, I suppose the question is now if the phrase "the fourth is the first" means the fourth step becomes the first step (answer: Hufflepuff) or that the fourth step is the answer (answer: Ravenclaw).

I'm inclined to think the answer if Ravenclaw for a couple reasons. The first being that if your theory is correct, then it literally doesn't matter what the last one is. Hufflepuff would always be the answer with your interpretation of that line. It seems weird for them to give us a riddle but then be like, that middle part doesn't matter at all, the answer will always be Hufflepuff. The second reason that I think it is Ravenclaw is that it doesn't tell us that the fourth becomes the first, it says the fourth is the first. Which I think is an important distinction here. Lets look at it again.

Tabula Rasa said:
The last step is the fourth, the fourth is the first.
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If it said something along the lines of "the fourth becomes the first" then I would agree that Hufflepuff seems to fit. But it says that the "fourth is the first", I take that to mean that the fourth (Ravenclaw) is the answer. For that reason.

[] I am the Ravenclaw

Edit: Basically, because it says "the fourth is the first" and not "the fourth becomes the first" I don't think Hufflepuff is the answer, but Ravenclaw.

Edit2: Unsure of what it is now. Some decent points were made for Ravenclaw.
 
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[X] I am the Hufflepuff

Just kinda guessing, but what if by reversing words it is mean to be going get the hufflepuff back and then going forward?
 
Hellarion said:
Just kinda guessing, but what if by reversing words it is mean to be going get the hufflepuff back and then going forward?
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I took that to mean that we have to speak the words in the reverse order that they happened.

Basically, it seemed to go like this
  1. Hufflepuff
  2. Gryffindor
  3. Slytherin
  4. Ravenclaw
If we start with the last step (the fourth is the first) like it says at the end, then it would go as follows:
  1. Ravenclaw
  2. Slytherin
  3. Gryffindor
  4. Hufflepuff
Though, that is just my interpretation. But I don't see how anything else fits better than that.

Edit: Either that or we have to speak the word backwards.
 
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Wait a minute, it can't be Hufflepuff. Guys, the one asking the question "Who are you" thinks we are a group. Maybe it is asking us to give it the all the Houses, just in the reverse order that they occurred/contributed.

It happened this way.
  1. Hufflepuff
  2. Gryffindor
  3. Slytherin
  4. Ravenclaw
Maybe the riddle is saying that the fourth is first because it wants us to start with the 4th person and say everything in reverse from there, so it becomes as follows.
  1. Ravenclaw
  2. Slytherin
  3. Gryffindor
  4. Hufflepuff
As such, we can't start with Hufflepuff, because then it would become
  1. Hufflepuff
  2. Slytherin
  3. Gryffindor
  4. Hufflepuff
That leaves out Ravenclaw entirely. The riddle literally just seems to be asking for the group to name what House they are in the reverse order that they contributed. I don't see how we can start with Hufflepuff if that is the case.

Edit:
Tabula Rasa said:
The last step is the fourth, the fourth is the first.

For here to pass, your words must be reversed.
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Edit: Does that make sense or am I maybe being paranoid here?
 
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ShyGuy said:
This line of the riddle is saying that there are only four steps and that our last step, our fourth step, is the first. I take this to mean that the last step is our answer (Ravenclaw). Whereas you take it to mean that the fourth step becomes the first step and that becomes our answer (Hufflepuff).
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ShyGuy said:
If it said something along the lines of "the fourth becomes the first" then I would agree that Hufflepuff seems to fit. But it says that the "fourth is the first", I take that to mean that the fourth (Ravenclaw) is the answer. For that reason.
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There are a few issues with the answer of "Ravenclaw" that I can see.

1. It does not address the other parts of the puzzle such as: How is that persistent? And how is that reversing anything?

2. It assumes that the question that the last step is asking which house the last step was designed for rather than actually answering the riddle itself. This is based upon an assumption that each step is assigned to a single house, and that the answer to the Riddle is assigned to Ravenclaw. That assumption does not come from the riddle itself, but from an expansion of an observation that Jacob made that the 2nd step would require him to encapsulate a trait of a house.

3. It does not fit smoothly with the other parts. Such as, how is Ravenclaw being the fourth step make it the 1st step?

"Hufflepuff" works in multiple ways and fits in with all of the riddle.

Tabula Rasa said:
The three are here now, may smart or bereft,

For one foot they set down, three there still left.
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A nice play on words. Three people (houses) now, intelligent/hurt or deprived, (due to Hufflepuff not being here), for one foot they set down (a play on steps and also saying that the missing one is a step), three there still left (stating there are 3 more steps, and playing on the three people here).

Tabula Rasa said:
For the guardian is whole, all other were cruel,

As one they will act and follow the jewel,

With their swords in hand, swift and gallant,

Then at last trick and dupe, make the mountain a fool.
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These are steps 2 and 3 as described by Jacob.

Tabula Rasa said:
This gate will open only after walking all distance,

The Riddler will speak to offer assistance,

You may then greet, and then be persistent.
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Okay, some afterwards, a Riddler will speak and we can greet them and...be persistent? What is persistent?

Tabula Rasa said:
The last step is the fourth, the fourth is the first.

For here to pass, your words must be reversed.
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The last step is the fourth step (which was already stated that there were three + one steps in the second line), and the fourth step is the first step (not becomes, but IS the first step). If the answer is Ravenclaw...that makes no sense and actually is a contradiction: if the last step is Ravenclaw, then the 1st step is Ravenclaw, which we know it isn't because the instructions already said the first step was Hufflepuff.

But...if we say that the first step and the last step are the same (which the instructions say they are) then the only answer is Hufflepuff because the instructions said the first step was Hufflepuff. I already pointed out how that is a persistent answer (which fulfills the "you may greet, and then be persistent" which Ravenclaw would not and reverses our last words of Hufflepuff which Ravenclaw does not).

Basically, the answer of Ravenclaw does not fit into all of the instructions/riddle and is an answer based upon the assumption that the riddle was quesitoning who the riddle was designed to be answered by (which is not in the instructions)..and that the answer is it was designed for Ravenclaw when it could be designed for Slytherin if the answer is Hufflepuff.

And, you agree that Hufflepuff is a potential answer.

On the otherhand, following the instructions/riddle, the ONLY answer possible is Hufflepuff without adding in any assumptions into the instructions. And, unlike Ravenclaw, the answer of Hufflepuff also furthers the test's purpose of showing cooperation.
 
Idk I'm just voting for Hufflepuff because I like the idea that no one gets left behind, it seems like something the founders would promote.
 
ShyGuy said:
That leaves out Ravenclaw entirely. The riddle literally just seems to be asking for the group to name what House they are in the reverse order that they contributed. I don't see how we can start with Hufflepuff if that is the case.
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I think you may be basing a lot of your analysis on assumptions that are not in the riddle itself: namely that the riddle is seeking who contributed to the solution to each step. That was not described in the riddle. One of the clear rules in the riddle is:

Step 4 is Step 1.

Therefore Step 1 is Step 4.

What was the answer to Step 1?

Hufflepuff

Therefore, the answer to Step 4 is the same as Step 1...

Hufflepuff.

It is the only answer internally consistent that fulfills everything in the riddle.
 
In regards to this, here are my thoughts:
MysteryCPU said:
There are a few issues with the answer of "Ravenclaw" that I can see.

1. It does not address the other parts of the puzzle such as: How is that persistent? And how is that reversing anything?

2. It assumes that the question that the last step is asking which house the last step was designed for rather than actually answering the riddle itself. This is based upon an assumption that each step is assigned to a single house, and that the answer to the Riddle is assigned to Ravenclaw. That assumption does not come from the riddle itself, but from an expansion of an observation that Jacob made that the 2nd step would require him to encapsulate a trait of a house.

3. It does not fit smoothly with the other parts. Such as, how is Ravenclaw being the fourth step make it the 1st step?

"Hufflepuff" works in multiple ways and fits in with all of the riddle.
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1) It reverses the puzzle by starting with the last person that contributed to it, the Ravenclaw. As for being persistent, I take that to mean we can't falter in our answer. We may have to convince them that we are who we say we are. Like the Ravenclaw door knocker sometimes wants a "well reasoned" answer when answering their riddle.

2) No, I assume that the last step is asking which house contributed last to the puzzle. Which would be Ravenclaw as their House entrance involves solving riddles and the last task has the Riddler speaking to the group. Hence his time to step forward.

3) My thoughts on this is that the Riddler isn't asking one person who they are. The Riddler is asking a group of people who they are. The problem then arises, who speaks first. This is where I think "the fourth is first" comes in.

MysteryCPU said:
Okay, some afterwards, a Riddler will speak and we can greet them and...be persistent? What is persistent?
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Again, I took that to mean that the Riddler may not accept our answer off the bat. Like the entrance to the Ravenclaw dormitory, our answer needs to be well reasoned.

MysteryCPU said:
The last step is the fourth step (which was already stated that there were three + one steps in the second line), and the fourth step is the first step (not becomes, but IS the first step). If the answer is Ravenclaw...that makes no sense and actually is a contradiction: if the last step is Ravenclaw, then the 1st step is Ravenclaw, which we know it isn't because the instructions already said the first step was Hufflepuff.

But...if we say that the first step and the last step are the same (which the instructions say they are) then the only answer is Hufflepuff because the instructions said the first step was Hufflepuff. I already pointed out how that is a persistent answer (which fulfills the "you may greet, and then be persistent" which Ravenclaw would not and reverses our last words of Hufflepuff which Ravenclaw does not).

Basically, the answer of Ravenclaw does not fit into all of the instructions/riddle and is an answer based upon the assumption that the riddle was quesitoning who the riddle was designed to be answered by (which is not in the instructions)..and that the answer is it was designed for Ravenclaw when it could be designed for Slytherin if the answer is Hufflepuff.

And, you agree that Hufflepuff is a potential answer.

On the otherhand, following the instructions/riddle, the ONLY answer possible is Hufflepuff without adding in any assumptions into the instructions. And, unlike Ravenclaw, the answer of Hufflepuff also furthers the test's purpose of showing cooperation.
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It says the last step is the first, not that it is the first step. I took that to mean that the last step (Ravenclaw) are the first ones to speak. But if the last step is the first step like you believe, then were is Ravenclaw in all this? This is supposed to be a group task, with all 4 houses contributing in some way. If the last step is the first step like you believe, and not the first one to speak like I believe, then Ravenclaw isn't contributing at all. Which doesn't make sense. In your interpretation of the puzzle you have Hufflepuff, Gryffindor, and Slytherin all playing their part. Where is Ravenclaw in all this? They have to be there. It doesn't make sense for only 3 of the 4 Houses to play a part in the Riddle. So, it makes more sense to me for it to have Hufflepuff, Gryffindor, Slytherin, and Ravenclaw working together than it does for it to be Hufflepuff, Gryffindor, Slytherin, and Hufflepuff again and Ravenclaw to be nowhere in sight.

MysteryCPU said:
I think you may be basing a lot of your analysis on assumptions that are not in the riddle itself: namely that the riddle is seeking who contributed to the solution to each step. That was not described in the riddle. One of the clear rules in the riddle is:

Step 4 is Step 1.

Therefore Step 1 is Step 4.

What was the answer to Step 1?

Hufflepuff

Therefore, the answer to Step 4 is the same as Step 1...

Hufflepuff.

It is the only answer internally consistent that fulfills everything in the riddle.
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Again, if this is a puzzle that is meant for members from 4 houses to work together to complete, where is Ravenclaw in your interpretation?

Edit: Also, it doesn't say that step 4 is step 1. It says that step 4 is first, and that you must speak in reverse. I'll give you that it could be talking about the steps there, but I find it more likely that it is talking about the order they want the group to speak. Because if step 4 is step 1 and step 1 is step 4 like you believe, then Ravenclaw isn't anywhere in there and the puzzle is designed to have a member of each house in it. How is having Hufflepuff contribute twice internally consistent with the logic that a Ravenclaw must be involved in the puzzle in some way?
 
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ShyGuy said:
2) No, I assume that the last step is asking which house contributed last to the puzzle. Which would be Ravenclaw as their House entrance involves solving riddles and the last task has the Riddler speaking to the group. Hence his time to step forward.
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But where are you getting this from: that the last step is asking which house contribute to the last puzzle?

Tabula Rasa said:
The last step is the fourth, the fourth is the first.
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ShyGuy said:
It says the last step is the first, not that it is the first step. I took that to mean that the last step (Ravenclaw) are the first ones to speak.
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That is a large assumption that does not come from the riddle and requires an interesting reading of the riddle.

It says "the last step is the fourth"...I believe we both believe that means the "last step is the fourth (step)"...and the sentence then continues on to say "the fourth is the first". Since it is the same sentence, it is logical that means "the fourth (step) is the first (step)" as in one sentence it would be "The last step is the fourth step, the fourth step is the first step." Makes sense with sentence construction.

For your interpretation to hold true, it would be "The last step is the fourth (step), the fourth (step) is the first (to speak)"...when an order of speech was never broached in the riddle itself. It doesn't really make sense in sentence construction.

ShyGuy said:
This is supposed to be a group task, with all 4 houses contributing in some way. If the last step is the first step like you believe, and not the first one to speak like I believe, then Ravenclaw isn't contributing at all.
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As stated before, Ravenclaw could have contributed in many ways. The first, most obvious, is that these riddles are written in French. If this puzzle was created as part of Hogwarts, which Jacob believes it was, then it was made 1000 years ago...when French wasn't commonly spoken save for the educated or (after the Norman Invasion) in the powerful (educated people). So...just reading in French was probably a Ravenclaw thing when one considers it was all wizards from the British Isles.

Also, the tricking and making a fool of the statute could be read to be either a Slytherin or a Ravenclaw thing because making someone a fool requires cleverness and thought. In this case, it wasn't political machinations or manipulation that solved the issue but just sheer wit. So, Ravenclaw could contribute there.

Slytherin could contribute by thinking of the lie of saying Hufflepuff when asked who are you...or Ravenclaw, too.

That is another weakness with Ravenclaw as an answer using your analysis: Not only does it require assumptions that are not laid out by the riddle such as the riddle seeking out which house contributed to which puzzle or that the question was seeking an order rather than a single answer...but that which house contributed to which task is up for interpretation.

Was the statue's puzzle one that required manipulation or was it a logic puzzle that a Ravenclaw could puzzle out? It could be either- it could be both.

A word riddle that has multiple answers based upon assumptions that are not laid out is either a joke (the old "what is black and white and red all over?") or poorly constructed as a riddle. I believe the riddle is intended to be well constructed, and thus I can't see how Ravenclaw would be the answer.
 
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