Fisher king seems great, but I am much more invested in pillars and I would rather actually get something out of this fight than bank for something. Also I am not sure it is worth a defining slot considering we only have four and SJUC limits us to five total if we take it if I remember correctly. On the other hand it is really quite good, but on the other other hand Stranglethorn and it's doubling and will gets more attractive the higher our stats. On the other other hand the agility cut gets worse the higher our stats but we have already way get compensated for that so I guess. This. We do need to take these eventually and honest if not now then when, it's not like they will ever not have amazing competition.

[X] Sharpening the Blade [4 Arete]
I mean, spending our DA slot on 5p 25ap is clearly more efficient than spending it on 4p 0ap..

Like, back when we got CP we talked about getting 5 pick DA using it, but we dismissed that as way too good.

Getting Stranglethorn rather than super rare and effectively impossible to get 5 pick is just super wasteful.
 
That's what Decimator already does. Now we just make it ignore our direct subjects and take our health instead.
No, it takes our direct health and poisons the land of our territory, making it barren and bringing sterility. Crop plants die --> whole farming cycle is lost even if actual Decimation time is less than the season --> famine --> mass casualties
 
I mean, spending our DA slot on 5p 25ap is clearly more efficient than spending it on 4p 0ap..

Like, back when we got CP we talked about getting 5 pick DA using it, but we dismissed that as way too good.

Getting Stranglethorn rather than super rare and effectively impossible to get 5 pick is just super wasteful.

Considering I am not voting Stranglethorn this is a bit irrelevant isn't it. I mean how many picks is SJUC, cause that seems like a better spend of it. All I am saying is is fisher king really something we want more than Stranglethorn considering the limited slots for definings. While a 5 pick 25 Arete options is definitely a more efficient choice, is what this particular one gives use worth giving up what the other available definings might strangle thorn included.
 
No, it takes our direct health and poisons the land of our territory, making it barren and bringing sterility.
That's a good point- I had been assuming the barrenness and sterility were already part of the Decimation package, but that was wrong of me. There'd be a little of that, but what Fisher King is describing is clearly more than the 10% a year, which would be overcome-able with, like, farming subsidies.
 
No, it takes our direct health and poisons the land of our territory, making it barren and bringing sterility. Crop plants die --> whole farming cycle is lost even if actual Decimation time is less than the season --> famine --> mass casualties
Yes, but the whole point is that we can in fact prepare for famine but cannot do so for the life drain effect; it's not like we can stock up on life force, y'know. If we can in fact choose the form the Affliction take it's clearly preferable.
Considering I am not voting Stranglethorn this is a bit irrelevant isn't it. I mean how many picks is SJUC, cause that seems like a better spend of it. All I am saying is is fisher king really something we want more than Stranglethorn considering the limited slots for definings. While a 5 pick 25 Arete options is definitely a more efficient choice, is what this particular one gives use worth giving up what the other available definings might strangle thorn included.
10 Accursed favor is like 1200$ dude, it's clearly worth a ton. We have another DA slot anyway and we have bested 4-picks fight before. But the Armament Fish was the only 5-pick fight we were offered, ever. When will we have another opportunity for a 5-pick DA?
 
Yes, but the whole point is that we can in fact prepare for famine but cannot do so for the life drain effect; it's not like we can stock up on life force, y'know. If we can in fact choose the form the Affliction take it's clearly preferable.

10 Accursed favor is like 1200$ dude, it's clearly worth a ton. We have another DA slot anyway and we have bested 4-picks fight before. But the Armament Fish was the only 5-pick fight we were offered, ever. When will we have another opportunity for a 5-pick DA?
Lucent Thorn? Might have the spelling wrong, but that also would have been a 5 pick.
 
Forgot about that, true. But from once to twice isn't much better, especially when Lucent Thorn was something that was recommended we constantly run away from! Not exactly helping the case for the wealth of opportunities for a 5-pick DA.
 
It was Lucenthorne the last time I checked.
 
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Yeah I'm thinking the only ways we'll ever get 5 picks is from the Apocryphal forcing us to dig deep and prove ourselves. As for how often this happens and us actually having Arete on hand for any DA's like fisher king that's up in the air. This may very well be the only chance we get for a DA this powerful. It's been mentioned before that if there is ever a time to go full greed it's right now.
 
5-picks aren't something you defeat. Consider how many advancements we've gotten since the first time we saw the Armament-Fish blurb, that's what it takes to transform a 5-pick into a 3-pick, which still retains a certain death chance. We're basically never ever going to get any 5-pick advancements unless we somehow defeat a 4-pick (which is Vanreir-tier fight, where dying is more likely than not) and get a +1 pick thread participation bonus that we haven't seen for the longest time. It just isn't happening, so this is a pretty unique opportunity. Whether we want the effects it offers is a questions voters might answer differently, but for me it's worth the cost.
 
Eh, honestly, while I think Fisher King is really good and I like the FK+Pillars combo eliminating Decimator from the story for 4 times as long as just Pillars, I can understand people wanting to just Sharpening and leave. While I'm not really a fan of Honing, Exalted Spirit has been on my wish-list for a while and every time we don't get it if we have the chance I get a little annoyed. I understand if others feel that about Honing. And finally getting the Evening Sky basics would be nice.

I also understand the desire to get Pillars as fast as possible, we're going to need that pick source. However, Rihaku has stated that it'll be quite a while (multiple weeks) before the next time the Realm of Evening is available, and we can almost certainly generate enough Arete to get it within that time period. As such I don't see Fisher King as delaying Pillars, because we won't get the effect of Pillars for a while anyway.

Now, one argument I haven't seen brought up is that the Lord Protector fight will be soon, and that might drop some cool shinies. Shinies we'll have to pass up if we've committed to Fisher King - there would be nothing worse then being stuck with three picks and 12 Arete invested in FK and then not finishing it, that's hideously suboptimal. OTOH, if we do a SAVE plan, we might generate enough Arete for both shiny and Pillars from the LP fight, or we could just delay Pillars by a bit since it'll be a while before it's useful.

Honestly, the prospect of potential LP shiny is almost enough for me to drop Fisher King, but that massive mitigation and potential lore about how Accursed Favor works is still keeping me on-side.
 
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10 Accursed favor is like 1200$ dude, it's clearly worth a ton.
Man, I forgot that was an option, the rerolls overshadowed it in my mind. If it was 10 rerolls in the stack that Fisher King gave... well, the comparison isn't perfect, but hm.

And I'm chuckling at the image of the Accursed being like "hey, you don't know you did this, but a fragment of your overdimensional nonfictional existence helped feed the person sustaining this omniverse, so you're pretty cool."

Hunger: what was that about nonfictional?
 
Why are we even getting Accursed Favour for this? Does Accursed just think that turning your all devouring Curse on ourself is Grade A cool?
 
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Honestly, the prospect of potential LP shiny is almost enough for me to drop Fisher King, but that massive mitigation and potential lore about how Accursed Favor works is still keeping me on-side.

I actually don't think any shiny the LP drops will be comparable to fisher king. The armament fish is vastly stronger than the LP and anything he could summon. Anything he drops would be good but probably not as good as this.
 
I actually don't think any shiny the LP drops will be comparable to fisher king. The armament fish is vastly stronger than the LP and anything he could summon. Anything he drops would be good but probably not as good as this.

Yes but it's not about absolute strength, it's about how much I like the option. I still love Outer Sky, Philosopher's Wreath, and Rune King far more then Once and Future and Crimson Flare, despite the obvious power gap between those two groups. All the LP Shinies have to do is appeal to my aesthetic and thematic tastes and I'll like them more then Fisher King even if Fisher King is objectively better.

Anyway, quantum shinies aren't quite enough to get me to switch, so I'm staying on Fisher King. Maybe I'll regret it, maybe I won't, you can never know what the outcome of an action is until you do it.
 
Why are we even getting Accursed Favour for this? Does Accursed just think that turning your all devouring Curse on ourself is Grade A cool?
Good question. That, the cost (5p, 24a, 1 DA slot) spent on mitigation, that getting such a specialized method is an ultra rare card from Cursebearer booster packs, the synergy with Geas, a starting bonus for the first srsbsns mitigation, the incentive to do mitigation for Leprosy and Mutilation...

There are so many options that they might add up to 10, but still. Holy fuck.
 
No, it takes our direct health and poisons the land of our territory, making it barren and bringing sterility. Crop plants die --> whole farming cycle is lost even if actual Decimation time is less than the season --> famine --> mass casualties
Why are you under impression that Decimation doesn't already fuck with plants and stuff?
Considering I am not voting Stranglethorn this is a bit irrelevant isn't it. I mean how many picks is SJUC, cause that seems like a better spend of it. All I am saying is is fisher king really something we want more than Stranglethorn considering the limited slots for definings. While a 5 pick 25 Arete options is definitely a more efficient choice, is what this particular one gives use worth giving up what the other available definings might strangle thorn included.
I mean, yeah? It gives us insane Decimator Mitigation and, more importantly, ten fucking Accursed Favor.

You can get STR, CON and WILL multipliers through other means.
 
I don't see how that could be constructed as the less moral course of action.
I'm pretty sure this was rhetorical because I've made the points elsewhere and you're perfectly capable of reading. But, this is as good a framing device as I'm going to find. So:

1. Lowering the cost of decimation makes it easier to argue for an action that will allow a brief lapse in mitigation. I managed to win that argument in the Tower vote, so the thread's aversion to unmitigated Decimation clearly isn't absolute. People are already talking about how Grail Keeper acts as Decimation mitigation, which implies willingness to use it as such.

2. Grail Keeper changes the Affliction from a burden to a weapon. Every two months, Hunger will be forced to decide between the lives of strangers and a strategic advantage for his purposes. This goes beyond Moral gang's complaints about "recklessness" with strangers' lives and moves right into "callousness." People who were outraged that I would gamble with a chance of the next Huntress' Moon target being too far away are now voting to treat civilian lives as a strategic resource.

3. There are some nasty social ramifications of drawing a moral line around your polity. Rulership decisions will be different for someone who at any time could unleash a natural disaster that only affects neighboring countries. Specifically, this pulls us away from the heroic regard that tries to save everybody, and pushes Hunger into treating some lives more equally than others.

4. (This is not a consequentialist argument, so Moral Gang may or may not be bound by it. There were some appeals to "heroic responsibility" though!) There is a moral cost associated with harnessing the Decimator's Affliction. A day of indiscriminate decimation might be less monstrous than a day of indiscriminate decimation borne entirely by strangers and foes. Aobaru has already pointed out that we have a pretty "edgy" aesthetic. Weaponizing the Decimator's affliction would certainly disqualify us from being called a "hero".


Don't get me wrong: I think Fisher King is a pretty cool advancement! I just can't help but notice the intellectual dishonesty required to say that voting for the Tower is a moral failing, while they cheerfully buy-in to this nationalist mindset that uses Decimation of foreign citizens, pets, and crops as an international bargaining chip.
 
Horatio, Philosopher of Hell
The concept is this: me with Devildoor, versus Earth Bet. (You can click the element name for its' writeup.)
Comprehensive spoilers for Worm are assumed - my canon knowledge is one of your assets here.

By default I drop in a high-combat zone with Devildoor at Second Gate, putting me fairly close to Burnscar's canon powerset - craziness and Bonesaw mods included. The main differences are that my flame can buff others at the cost of sharing the mania, and that I can forego the mania entirely in exchange for the buffing and the teleportation.

Mission objectives - select one or more:
[ ] Spill The Cauldron
Bring Cauldron's crimes to light, and see its' leaders executed. This intention will not directly trigger Path To Victory, but its' second-order effects can. Requires a careful style of play, but has arguably the easiest endgame - once you can publish, you just have to kill half a dozen world-class capes and deal with their emergency resources.

[ ] House of Gold
Set civilization up to develop fast enough, in the long term, to defeat the undamaged Entities that will presumably show up eventually. The local Shards have few interplanetary action vectors, and fewer still that are also interdimensional. If you can get things set up for a reasonably stable interplanetary civ, I'll consider this goal complete.

[ ] Beasts of Apocalypse
Kill all official Class S threats. If you kill an Endbringer and don't deal with the others quickly enough, a new Endbringer will appear that's optimized (with a shard's limited intelligence) to counter whatever you did previously.
While theoretically most of the difficulty is in the endgame, in practice this will mostly mean having me run around retrieving people and weapons from high-danger areas until I get enough synergies in place. Dodging the Simurgh is not actually your biggest worry here, although she does make things more complicated. Not very America-centric. Probably the most difficult option, but only by a small margin.


For each Goal chosen, you may choose 1 Perk.

[ ] Devil's Toolbox
I start in an area with several Tinkers and some preptime. Payment or persuasion will be necessary, but I will get some kind of benefit; depending on play this could be the strongest starting build or the weakest. If the former, not overwhelmingly so.

[ ] Go Further
I start with the third Gate, capable of summoning Evil Elementals - which could easily be A-Rank minions in this setting, with the right prep. This does make the Final Gate moderately more difficult to reach in-game, though; I can't use the Third as part of my path to it, so it'd require an appropriate sidequest rather than being unlockable through the main questline.

[ ] Guardian Angel
I'm guaranteed no hostility from Zion or the Simurgh unless I've already tried to kill them; the latter's plans will treat assisting me as a lowest-priority secondary goal.

[ ] Boss Rush
I begin with an armored backpack containing the brain of Cleanroom, a Cloaker with the power to send himself and others to a mirror world made of white blocks. Though he's sedated, his power can be activated in three modes - shift all parahumans in a two-mile radius, all humans in the same radius, or his wearer and anyone they're touching. Manual escape is possible by reaching the edge of the radius, but only a very few powers can cross over directly.


Finally, choose my drop-in point.

[ ] Express Train Number Nine
A running battle between the Slaughterhouse Nine and the Railway Tinker, Nonstop. American countryside, August 2, 2010. Nonstop is attempting to execute the Nine's kill orders, with assistance from the Guild. Barring intervention, Nonstop will die within a day and a half.

[ ] Fourteenth Apocalypse Zone
Borlänge, Sweden. Former industrial and immigration hub, now a periodically-bombed labyrinth mostly dominated by metal ghouls. Was the site of a cluster trigger resulting in multiple Army-Tinkers, all presumed dead by now.
June 27th, 2010. The surviving creations have adapted again; a major breakout is due in three weeks. This Zone has been active for eight years and expanded twice, although it is presently considered quiescent.

[ ] Onslaught's Wager
Fifteen rogues and villains, some of eastern europe's finest, are touring the continent and offering a boon to anyone who can hold off all fifteen of them in sequence. There's obviously something fishy going on beneath the surface, but as lethal force is banned this is theoretically the safest opening option. This would drop me in Amsterdam on November 19th, 2010, but if you pick an earlier starting point I could theoretically track them down by the last week of October.


A final point of clarification: SI-me has knowledge of canon Worm, and what these blurbs tell him - he's almost exactly as blind as you are. He does know, however, that his Imaginary Element is not Shard-generated, and should do nothing to impair him from drinking a Cauldron vial. If he's willing to risk it.

(842 words. Bonus points if you can come up with a good name for this. I have discovered a sufficiently convoluted joke.)
 
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I'm pretty sure this was rhetorical because I've made the points elsewhere and you're perfectly capable of reading. But, this is as good a framing device as I'm going to find. So:

1. Lowering the cost of decimation makes it easier to argue for an action that will allow a brief lapse in mitigation. I managed to win that argument in the Tower vote, so the thread's aversion to unmitigated Decimation clearly isn't absolute. People are already talking about how Grail Keeper acts as Decimation mitigation, which implies willingness to use it as such.

2. Grail Keeper changes the Affliction from a burden to a weapon. Every two months, Hunger will be forced to decide between the lives of strangers and a strategic advantage for his purposes. This goes beyond Moral gang's complaints about "recklessness" with strangers' lives and moves right into "callousness." People who were outraged that I would gamble with a chance of the next Huntress' Moon target being too far away are now voting to treat civilian lives as a strategic resource.

3. There are some nasty social ramifications of drawing a moral line around your polity. Rulership decisions will be different for someone who at any time could unleash a natural disaster that only affects neighboring countries. Specifically, this pulls us away from the heroic regard that tries to save everybody, and pushes Hunger into treating some lives more equally than others.

4. (This is not a consequentialist argument, so Moral Gang may or may not be bound by it. There were some appeals to "heroic responsibility" though!) There is a moral cost associated with harnessing the Decimator's Affliction. A day of indiscriminate decimation might be less monstrous than a day of indiscriminate decimation borne entirely by strangers and foes. Aobaru has already pointed out that we have a pretty "edgy" aesthetic. Weaponizing the Decimator's affliction would certainly disqualify us from being called a "hero".


Don't get me wrong: I think Fisher King is a pretty cool advancement! I just can't help but notice the intellectual dishonesty required to say that voting for the Tower is a moral failing, while they cheerfully buy-in to this nationalist mindset that uses Decimation of foreign citizens, pets, and crops as an international bargaining chip.
Back in world of not having to use mental gymnastic to rationalize silly position, spending resources to make Decimator easier to mitigate means that we will be capable of mitigating Decimator with greater frequency, which is why we are spending resources to make it easier to mitigate.

Simple 1 2 3 logic.
 
Hmm, interesting.

[DD] House of Gold
[DD] Beasts of Apocalypse
[DD] Devil's Toolbox
[DD] Boss Rush
[DD] Express Train Number Nine


The 'careful style of play' part scared me away from spilling the beans, but I like the idea of fucking off to AU Mars to build his own Civ. Still, some adventuring to mix things up wouldn't be bad, so Beasts of Apocalypse is included too.

Toolbox for some starting utility and Boss Rush as a panic button. Guardian Angel could be good too, but if someone notices the Simurgh's assistance, that's pretty much social death.

As for the starting point, fighting the Nine is a time-honored tradition.
 
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