The solution to the character implications of Never Better is simple and I mentioned it before. We just stand aside and trust in our allies to succeed where we can't. In other words we need to empower Gisena. She's a lesser remittance after all. There is no reason why we can't help her scale to similar levels as us. RW literally gives her a form of Retinue. Also is it maybe possible to take her as our last panoply slot? That would solve everything.

But will we even think to leave different arenas of experience to others when Hunger KNOWs in the depth of his heart that he can just sword at everything until all the problems are dead and no one is willing to oppose him and he can sword reality itself into a form pleasing to him f he tries really hard. Which it feels like is the direction that accepting these levels of mental contamination as great is pushing us.

Relying on companions is a great start to avoid falling into the pit of the forbear, but honestly so much of the forbears thematics seem bound around taking everything on himself which leaning into mental contamination will increase in us. Not to mention that presumably before the forbear was an all powerful badass he too relied on companions, and look how he turned out after a thousand or so worlds. Can Hunger resist such tendencies throughout his indenture with such lessons ingrained and accepted?
 
[X] "Just a moment."
[X] Pinnacle

1) I am interested in saving for spicier advancements right now - like Pillars or ADS
2) I see this as a moment for Hunger to stop and re-evaluate his worldview a little bit. Focus more on smelling the roses instead of cutting them down - because unlike the Forebear, he has the good fortune to be in a place with roses.
 
[X] "Fine."
[X] Overwhelm
[X] Whiteout [7 Arete]


I'm finally back to voting but probably I'll debate less these time around so I accumulate less salt when the things I want lose. Anyway, these are just my thoughts on the options.

The option that make Hunger hew closely more to the path of the Forebear. It offers a slew of benefits from unlocking Once and Future II, improving Praxis training (!) and an increase in appearance of rare advancements (no confirmation if this is limited to Forebear's Blade). It also make Hunger more comfortable to any Forebear related Mental Contamination but I'm not really worried about that part, we have Accursed granted defences for that.

But here is the thing, should we emulate in total the path of the Forebear? While he was unwavering in completing his task and possess a nigh unmatched willpower and resolve, he is also limited in his tools to perform his cosmic janitorial duties and pretty much murdered anything in his way, eschewing most non-martial solutions. Hunger on the other hand wields the power of Progession and so what was out of reach for the Forebear is within our character's capability in due time.

Not the middle path or a compromise option, but rather the pursuit of Hunger's own way. The Procession of Worlds required an unfliching will to confront the new horrors of another universe while our Geas of Indenture ensures that whatever new mission we receive is within our capabilities in time if we put enough effort to it and that its true weight lies on the length of the curse instead. While there are parallels, would pursuing the Forebear's path be actually suitable or even needed? Wouldn't it be more sensible to find one that works for our ends? Instead of treating the Forebear's Blade as the central part of our powers, why not supplement it with the power of the Age of Hunger, the magics under the aegis of the Empyrean Mantle, majesty of the season of Winter and skills of our companions and followers?

[ ] "Just a moment."
Reject the path shown forward, instead of just treating it as a possibility and one way to pursue our objectives. Pursue other options, whether various offensive magics or diplomatic entreaties with enemies. While the Forebear's Blade offers some of the most powerful advancements in our panoply, they are often simple and narrow. Our other artifacts can still offer physical stats and offer other benefits such as flexibility (Graces, Empyrean Signs) or enhancement (Tears of Winter, Edeldross).

But is throwing the power of the Forebear to the wayside really wise? We will be casting aside the power of Ruin and letting the Sword Praxis languish...
 
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[X] "Fine."

Honestly the similarities don't seem strong enough for me to be all that interested in Never Better. Meanwhile though the hand wringing of Just a Moment seems way over the top considering the level of bottom feeding from a different Contamination source we've been willing to accept. Not to name names or anything, could be referring to anyone there.

Just accept it for what it is and move on with our life.

[X] Pinnacle

Might be overconfidence, but we seem in an okay spot to continue the save/social pivot.
 
[X] "Just a moment."
[X] Pinnacle
[X] Pristine [7 Arete]

Given the Tyrant walked his path alone as the president of Gisena Gang his path must be rejected! After taking opalescent tower might as well go for some mage picks and even more praxis efficiency sounds pretty good. .1 rank given by pristine is super strong as well now that our rank is so high.
 
Thinking about our goals at the moment, things are like this. OaF II is probably powerful but enough of a mystery box that I'm not going to comment much/I can't think of much to say.

Ber: Ber is no longer a threat except indirectly/via hostage situations.

Decimator's Affliction: We're about to go fight the Armament Fish to sate our Hunger, making it so we don't have to deal with the affliction for another month at the cost of 10 percent less power from the ring for winning fights(We've been operating like that this whole time basically). We may get the choice for Quelling(Pay 2 Arete to make the 10 percent Ring progression penalty and the not having to deal with Decimators Affliction last six months instead, along with getting a mystery box) or Conclusion(Pay 7 Arete, raise the ring pick progression penalty to 25 percent, get a mental stability improvement maybe and a mystery box, and not have to worry about Decimator's Affliction for two whole years). The armament fish is a 3 pick fight for us difficultywise but we should pick something that lets us pivot based on whatever surprises the apocryphal curse throws at us if we can. I'm not sure what precise route we're going to take to get a Nightmare Flight to the Armament fish.

Royalists: We're gambling that Aobaru and crew can hide/buff royalist legions for long enough to last until our return, whether by teleportation or by overwhelming speed. The lions share of our strength is in our rank, and this impedes our ability to work with peer astral denizens that have stats to go with our rank. The Lord Protector is likely to take advantage of this by sending an anti-rank monster at us. Praxis endurance would give us more combat options if our rank was neutralized, but so would an upgraded All-Defeating Stance via Overwhelm. We have enough rank to heal our internal injuries when and if we ever get to it. There's a chance healing our internal injuries will improve our Praxis Endurance also.

Aobaru's Terminator: We need combat-relevant sources of scaling and potential we can exploit to ensure that any time we engage it we're stronger since the ability out absolutely outscale it should not be presumed to be a possibility. I'm fairly sure anything works here on some level at least, from the Rank/Praxis Endurance to the Upgraded All-Defeating Stance to unlocking OaF II albeit that one would be harder. Just a Moment would let us get a 1 Arete discount on Total Eclipse or Pillars of Creation which have been upgraded to be worth more than 25 Arete.

Getting Letrezia out of the Voyaging Realm: She's a Nightmare Flight away like always at this point.

Getting Ourself/Aeira/Aobaru out of the Voyaging Realm: We're going to go looking after this Lord Protector business, we have astral denizens as a potential source of leads in addition to whatever else turns up.

Conquering the Human Sphere: Intelligence from Pinnacle will help us with the Scheming side but Overwhelm/Whiteout will improve our prospects against Armaments. It's a question of preference here I guess.

Successful odds of Vengeance: We are a reckless nutbar who takes a lot of unnecessary risks. Without something shaking up our psychology, or ascending to Blindsight Vampire or beyond level competence to let us get away with our reckless behavior, we are going to die before we get our vengeance. Pinnacle helps our long term odds of vengeance by bolstering our competence.

Ruling Well: Pinnacle is an intelligence source(It's also a rank source if Arete is spent for the upgraded version that makes us even better at ruling). If we outscale Gisena intelligencewise, we're going to have a lot more ability to rule well for those cases we take the field directly instead of delegating to Princess Adorie. We should still delegate most of that to Adorie since we're an overly reckless dumpsterfire though. The Forebear's Sword in the Stone ability may be one we're less likely to use as a Ruling Aid if we take Never Better, I don't know.

Curse Mitigation: Nothing seems immediately relevant here.

Word Count: 689 Words
 
I have to say, I utterly despise Never Better. Too see that particular vision, and see that as something to be emulated, is the act of a madman.

I must remind you all of the Accursed's Admonishment. "Take care that you do not become that which you despise." The Forebear is someone who has utterly rejected the idea of compromise, the path of anything except cutting through. Cutting through is an acceptable solution in many scenarios, but it is in many situations not the right choice or the best choice.

Read that Forebear interlude, and tell me: do you honestly want to become that? Do you want Hunger to become that? If the answer to either of those questions is "no," then why the hell would you vote for "Never Better?"

Furthermore, think of our companions. Would they want Hunger to be more like the Forebear? If Gisena, Letrizia, Aeira Aobaru and Adorie were to read these options, what would they think was best, and worst?

I see a lot of blind "PRAXIS" votes, and it's nice that you like Praxis, but consider that you're trading mental contamination for that Praxis. Imagine your mind and soul being permeated and changed into something else, and understand that you're saying "It's perfectly fine to have my mind be invaded and changed by a foreign, uncompromising force in exchange for power." Is that the attitude you want Hunger to take? Aren't the Curses he's already suffering from enough without adding more of his own making, that aren't even necessary? We do have options besides 4Bear Mental Contamination advancements. We could use them.

Honestly, given how vehemently I dislike Never Better, I'm going Just A Moment for now out of sheer spite, despite the rational part of me saying that "Fine" is probably more in line with my own views.

[X] "Just a moment."

And another thing: people were sad that we had to kill Vanreir, imagine how many potentially sympathetic opponents Hunger would Cut Down without mercy if he was more like the Forebear? The Forebear only faced opponents that were so morally reprehensible that killing them was not in the slightest big morally ambiguous - Hunger does not have that, perhaps for the better. Hunger does not have an endless procession of universes where he can be completely justified no matter what he does. A vote for "Never Better" is, quite literally, a vote for Murder - the Forebear's Cut is explicitly a tool of murder after all. And while every problem the Forebear faced could be resolved with murder without regret, Hunger will not always face such problems.

The Forebear was in an entirely different and much worse situation then Hunger, and sacrificed a great deal to survive that situation. Are we to make the same sacrifices, when said sacrifices are completely unnecessary? We have other ways to achieve great power.
 
[X] "Never better."
[X] Pinnacle
[X] Pristine [7 Arete]


The synergy here is obvious:

1.) People worried about mental contamination benefit from an increase in INT and WILL
2.) Never Better makes us better at Praxis, Pristine makes Praxis more efficient
3.) +0.1 in Rank is still pretty bonkers, such is the path of hyper-logarithmic escalation
4.) This adds a non-insignificant amount of stats to Agility and Might (of course, not as much as Overwhelm, but still meaningful)
 
So. This is a description of Refinement of Place from "The Ageless Hour"

[ ] Refinement of Place (4 Praxis + 1 ordinary pick) - When this rune is executed, alter the practitioner's or target's place within the positional context (in normal metaphysics, the positional context is "space" within the physical realm) according to the means of execution. For example, a lateral slice may transfer the practitioner laterally across a coordinate plane, or the practitioner may slice an incoming unblockable attack to transport it behind the enemy who launched it. May be further developed to allow movement across positional contexts (such as from the physical Realm to the Astral). Draining, dependent on magnitude of change.

*Incredible utility and power, can be used in somewhat casual fights if distances are kept low
*Allows for high level conceptual manipulations in the long run
*SORD. MAGIC. GUD.
*Not as potent in direct combat as the Refinement of Quickness.

This part was presumably based off our Praxis Endurance at the time. Now that our Praxis endurance is quadrupled and potentially even Quintupled, we may be able to use Refinement of Place in genuine, serious fights if we get it. The Battlefield control and attack redirection potential of this ability is immense.
 
[X] "Just a moment."
[X] Pinnacle
[X] Pristine [7 Arete]


I'll support the president of Gisena Gang for now. I think that there are some mechanical combinations that would be worth a longer analysis post, maybe after work.

For the character-defining portion of the options, this is just another far-reaching update where we don't know how the options will change Hunger. That debate will need more time to develop.
 
So, here's a thing I thought of.

Would the Forebear want someone to be like him? When they had another choice, a different source of power that didn't make them more like the Forebear?
 
[X] "Just a moment."
[X] Pinnacle
[X] Pristine [7 Arete]

It's probably best for Hunger's mental health and recovery that he not follow in the Forebear's footsteps.
 
The solution to the character implications of Never Better is simple and I mentioned it before. We just stand aside and trust in our allies to succeed where we can't. In other words we need to empower Gisena. She's a lesser remittance after all. There is no reason why we can't help her scale to similar levels as us. RW literally gives her a form of Retinue. Also is it maybe possible to take her as our last panoply slot? That would solve everything.
How is that going to work when we adjust our character to be more like the forbear who never relied on anyone other than himself?
 
Too see that particular vision, and see that as something to be emulated, is the act of a madman.
The Forebear is someone who has utterly rejected the idea of compromise, the path of anything except cutting through. Cutting through is an acceptable solution in many scenarios, but it is in many situations not the right choice or the best choice.
I think these two points unnecessarily reduce what Hunger takes away from the vision. Hunger still notes that the Forebear was a brutal and hideous man, set on a path "even more brutal than Hunger's". Given the circumstances of an unceasing parade of worlds (and without the benefit of Progression, too) the Forebear managed to survive the only way he knew how.

In many ways, emulating the pure resolve of the Forebear is ideal, as we face ever escalating horrors and inhumanities visited upon the native population. Thematically congruent with Uttermost characterization, it was right to not let the character that changes reality by talking to continue talking.

Furthermore, think of our companions. Would they want Hunger to be more like the Forebear? If Gisena, Letrizia, Aeira Aobaru and Adorie were to read these options, what would they think was best, and worst?

Well, I'm sure Aobaru would at least find it pretty cool.

and it's nice that you like Praxis, but consider that you're trading mental contamination for that Praxis. Imagine your mind and soul being permeated and changed into something else, and understand that you're saying "It's perfectly fine to have my mind be invaded and changed by a foreign, uncompromising force in exchange for power."

Weren't you advocating for Inheritor when it was available? Well, regardless, Rihaku's already pointed out that mental contamination can be mitigated by high Will, so it's likely that we could outscale mental contamination with sufficient picks.

The Forebear only faced opponents that were so morally reprehensible that killing them was not in the slightest big morally ambiguous - Hunger does not have that, perhaps for the better.

That's a pretty good point. But we're going to have to kill heroes and conquer kingdoms regardless to achieve our Vengeance, so it becomes relevant here to point out that overwhelming power gives Hunger the ability to forsake efficient but morally bankrupt paths to victory. If we've got so many other ways to power as you say, then it stands to reason that we've got just as many ways to get mental stability and will etc etc
 
How is that going to work when we adjust our character to be more like the forbear who never relied on anyone other than himself?
Wait a moment, this doesn't sound right. Undying Vanguard and Companions of the King are both ally buffs, after all.

Remember, what we saw is only a fragment of the Forebear's history. It's likely that later on, he eventually found the value of teamwork.
 
[X]"Just a moment"

My Primary reason for this is that I like the idea that Hunger is deciding to walk his own path, that he can be strong enough in and of himself. The Forebearer is closer to a force of nature then a healthy human mind, I'd prefer we not end up like that.

The secondary bit is that I really like how willpower flows into the rest of our stats and makes everything better.
 
[X] "Just a moment."
[X] Pinnacle
[X] Pristine [7 Arete]


I don't know why people are jumping on to the idea that having the slightist bit of dialogue with the Ur-Mother for even a second longer would have meant irrevocable doom for the Forebear. They already had a conversation and he had no trouble no selling literally everything she did. Even her literal death curse couldn't do anything to affect him, if anything it made him stronger!

Anyway, i'm just not super interested at all in reading a version of this quest where Hunger's best and only recourse to anything is to just sword it better, and thus resolve all challenges that way. It's just really, really boring.
 
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[X] "Just a moment."
[X] Pinnacle
[X] Pristine [7 Arete]


I don't know why people are jumping on to the idea that having the slightist bit of dialogue with the Ur-Mother for even a second longer would have meant irrevocable doom for the Forebear. They already had a conversation and he had no trouble no selling literally everything she did. Even her literal death curse couldn't do anything to affect him, if anything it made him stronger!

Anyway, i'm just not super interested at all in reading a version of this quest where Hunger's best and only recourse to anything is to just sword it better, and thus resolve all challenges that way. It's just really, really boring.
Hm. I add your sentiment to my Team SMRT leanings. Let Hunger find his own path.

[X] "Just a moment."
[X] Pinnacle
[X] Pristine [7 Arete]
 
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