Given the Apocryphal, either us sticking around will just bring additional calamities to our people or we'll con Adorie into sheltering them from our Curse. Either way, there's no benefit for either side for an extended stay from us. Moreover, it's not like we'd be hanging around here when we're going off on an epic adventure with Aobaru anyway.
 
She swallowed. "G-good question! Most Armaments are Foremost technology, mine included. There's an inbuilt navigational system for Foremost realms. I estimate it'll take us about t-two months to reach the city's staging grounds, give or take two weeks."

Letrizia's initial timeline of two months was an estimate of travel time, not time to catastrophe.

In the event that she really was betrayed by members of her own government, there might be benefits to letting them think that she really was lost in the Voyaging Realm. An armament, damaged badly enough that it couldn't take even a single serious attack from Ber? The odds of returning home at all are pretty slim. Hunger & Co. have explored much further into the Voyaging Realm than adventurers usually manage.

There are two major considerations that suggests that we should stay in the VR longer:

  1. Letrizia's original estimate of travel time does not put her back at Voyaging City for another month and a half at the outside. Regardless of "dereliction" she is completely unlooked for right now.
  2. If she does not make it to Voyaging City in six weeks, her betrayers have time to get complacent. If we return her on-schedule (or worse: early) then their forces will still be poised to deliver the finishing blow.
I'm not sure where the thread got the idea that the entire Human Sphere is going to explode in precisely 2 months, but the headlong rush back into the clutches of a conspiracy just makes no sense to me. Even if there were an event scheduled at the 2-month mark, Letrizia was in control of a powerful asset and the conspiracy managed to push her out of the way. Versch is not even close to his former glory: Letrizia would be a pawn or a victim rather than a player if she returned now.
 
Moreover, it's not like we'd be hanging around here when we're going off on an epic adventure with Aobaru anyway.
1. We'd be collecting assets in the VR, which has magic that is unavailable in the Human Sphere.
2. The discussion of "adopting" the Elixir Sovereignty included the concern that Hunger might be called on to return to the VR to address a second Rotbeast-level threat if the Sovereignty is threatened by something that they cannot handle. There are more threats that could level the Sovereignty now, during reconstruction, than ever before. Being in the Voyaging Realm makes it much easier to return and fulfill our responsibility to protect the fledgling country.

In not too long, they will be able to stand on their own two feet because the Elementalists will only grow more powerful. Right now they are expecting our help and protection. Leaving turns our back on them.
 
  1. If she does not make it to Voyaging City in six weeks, her betrayers have time to get complacent. If we return her on-schedule (or worse: early) then their forces will still be poised to deliver the finishing blow.
That's very of odd reasoning to me, since that implies that the betrayers are waiting for her to show up instead of, much more likely, utilizing her absence to invoke their plots. Liz being dumped two months away by Mastermind A to me doesn't mean that they're waiting on her to return. It means that Mastermind A is doing a plot that is much easier if Liz is away for two months. An early return before they're ready to fully capitalize on things means they're not ready, not that they are even more prepared.
 
Even more indecisiveness since I realized we still have the Lord Protector, the terminator, and the journey to the center of the realm keeping us from our holdings.

[x]Into the Breach
[x]Priority Two
[x]All Defeating Stance
 
That's very of odd reasoning to me, since that implies that the betrayers are waiting for her to show up instead of, much more likely, utilizing her absence to invoke their plots. Liz being dumped two months away by Mastermind A to me doesn't mean that they're waiting on her to return. It means that Mastermind A is doing a plot that is much easier if Liz is away for two months. An early return before they're ready to fully capitalize on things means they're not ready, not that they are even more prepared.
I can feel the clock ticking so that post probably wasn't as clear as it could've been. Here's what I meant:

1. The conspirators had plans that would be endangered by the presence of a full-power armament. Unless their plan was a dramatic failure, they had to expect that Letrizia might be able to limp home. Their plan almost certainly involved contingencies and countermeasures in case she returned while they were making their moves.

2. If Letrizia returns now, it will plunge her and her crippled Armament into a plot that she still knows nothing about. It will pit her against conspirators that were able to completely remove her from play while she still had a fully functional armament. It will deliver her to their doorstop when their troops are still mobilized and their contingency plans are still active. If we return her now, she is a wounded animal being offered up to the slaughter.

3. If Letrizia returns later, they will have the benefit of consolidating their plot. Sure. But they will also have moved on and relaxed the contingencies relating to Versch. You can only stay alert and prepared for an armament for so long. Eventually those resources will have to be redirected. If we return much later, she gets to be Odysseus returning from the Trojan War to set her house in order. She'll have time to hone her Magic, to repair Versch, and to secure political backing to retake her throne.


Rushing Letrizia back to the Human Sphere just ensures that they have a body to put in the ground. Keeping her safe by our side in the Voyaging Realm lays the groundwork for her triumphant return.
 
Last edited:
Versch is not even close to his former glory: Letrizia would be a pawn or a victim rather than a player if she returned now.

The only ways to heal Versch is to either get our blood casting up to such a ridiculous degree that we can brute force it or to take him to a proper repair dock in the HS. We can heal him the first way by staying in the VR and growing stronger. We can heal him the second way by going to the HS now before whatever schemes against Letrizia are done. Either way Versch will be healed and ready to go by the time we are ready to start our campaign.
 
The only ways to heal Versch is to either get our blood casting up to such a ridiculous degree that we can brute force it or to take him to a proper repair dock in the HS. We can heal him the first way by staying in the VR and growing stronger. We can heal him the second way by going to the HS now before whatever schemes against Letrizia are done. Either way Versch will be healed and ready to go by the time we are ready to start our campaign.
I'm not worried about Versch being healed in time for Hunger's conquest. I'm saying that a crippled Versch will be unable to protect Letrizia from betrayal if we rush her home right now. The conspiracy has got to have a contingency plan in case she survived the ambush. Versch is currently in no position to deal with that contingency plan.

Traveling the VR might let us find a society with the specialized tools needed to repair him, or additional Foremost Lore that would allow Hunger to do it himself. Jumping back to the HS right now just seems like leading a lamb to slaughter imo.
 
I can feel the clock ticking so that post probably wasn't as clear as it could've been. Here's what I meant:

The conspirators had plans that would be endangered by the presence of a full-power armament. Unless their plan was a dramatic failure, they had to expect that Letrizia might be able to limp home. Their plan almost certainly involved contingencies and countermeasures in case she returned while they were making their moves.

If Letrizia returns now, it will plunge her and her crippled Armament into a plot that she still knows nothing about. It will pit her against conspirators that were able to completely remove her from play while she still had a fully functional armament. It will deliver her to their doorstop when their troops are still mobilized and their contingency plans are still active.

If Letrizia returns later, they will have the benefit of consolidating their plot. Sure. But they will also have moved on and relaxed the contingencies relating to Versch. You can only stay alert and prepared for an armament for so long. Eventually those resources will have to be redirected. If we return her now, she is a wounded animal being offered up to the slaughter.

If we return much later, she gets to be Odysseus returning from the Trojan War to set her house in order. She'll have time to hone her Magic, to repair Versch, and to secure political backing to retake her throne.
And in the interim, her house holdings could be ransacked due to the loss of their main pillar of strength. Her father could be killed due to being the remaining leader but also weak of health.

And honestly this is making the assumption that it's better for the enemy plot to succeed so you can pick up the pieces they weren't able to smash and fight back, instead of interrupting them before they can finish smashing it in the first place. That's backwards to me. Why retake the throne when you can defend it?

The fun thing about unexpected betrayal is that you can't really do it twice. Vershe was one of the strongest things in the setting and was able to be taken off of the board because of trust that they broke.

The contingency for 'what to do if Liz limps home with a broken Vershe' almost certainly involves using the leverage and resources gained in their absence that they would have been unable to amass otherwise. Coming back early would interrupt that process. If they could take Vershe off of the board easily then they wouldn't have to show their hand like they did.
I'm not worried about Versch being healed in time for Hunger's conquest. I'm saying that a crippled Versch will be unable to protect Letrizia from betrayal if we rush her home right now. The conspiracy has got to have a contingency plan in case she survived the ambush. Versch is currently in no position to deal with that contingency plan.
They might have a contingency to deal with a rank 4 Armament limping back home without any signficant repairs. Not likely to have one for a Rank ~8 Armament that's there twice as fast as they thought it would be.
 
Last edited:
I feel like getting ADS now when we have enough Arete for OaF+King of Winter is just a bad move, tbh, especially considering OaF is boosted in value by Tears which stacks with it. This means OaF sends us barreling past Rank 8 to the High Ranks, a place where a mere difference of 0.5 Rank confers an overwhelming advantage.
 
The only ways to heal Versch is to either get our blood casting up to such a ridiculous degree that we can brute force it or to take him to a proper repair dock in the HS. We can heal him the first way by staying in the VR and growing stronger. We can heal him the second way by going to the HS now before whatever schemes against Letrizia are done. Either way Versch will be healed and ready to go by the time we are ready to start our campaign.

Though, if your blood domain is already so outrageously powerful on a permanent basis, the advantage provided by Versch would be modest...
 
[X] Into the Breach
[X] Priority Two

kinda want picks I guess, and we probably should hit the human sphere instead of gallivanting off into an arc which will probably span at least several months
or just work on rez graces in case useful or important hs people die, to not make letty sad for a long-term
 
Moar indecisiveness:

[x]Into the Breach
[x]Priority Two

Yet on the other hand, Rank provides a lot of qualities that are a facsimile of competence close enough to match the real thing in a lot of ways. Intelligence and Wisdom are the genuine article? Rank is a force multiplier for genuine competence?

Rihaku responding to Redshirt Army: A Simple Transaction I Original

Redshirt:
But what would that look like in a debate setting? If Letrizia gets her effective Rank up to 3+ for the purposes of being "Sharp" and "Bright", and then debates a Rank 1 orator who is far more skilled, intelligent, and/or charismatic than her, what would her victory look like?


Rihaku:
Depends. If she's totally incompetent and the orator's argument is perfect, she could theoretically still lose. If she's competent and the orator is peak human but only Rank 1, then it'll be a combination of Killing Intent, circumstantial confidence / charisma, favorable coincidences or slowed verbal reflexes that have Letrizia coming across as more capable.
 
Last edited:
One of the sometimes forgotten benefits of OaF is that it doesn't influence Rank gain. So we would have heaps of additional power thanks to our already pretty high Rank, but it would increase as if we were defeating challenges at our base Rank. I don't think getting Rank for overthrowing the Lord Protector is unlikely, but between OaF and ADS the first would thus result in bigger gains. Well, depending on what exactly King of Winter does.
 
And in the interim, her house holdings could be ransacked due to the loss of their main pillar of strength. Her father could be killed due to being the remaining leader but also weak of health.

And honestly this is making the assumption that it's better for the enemy plot to succeed so you can pick up the pieces they weren't able to smash and fight back, instead of interrupting them before they can finish smashing it in the first place. That's backwards to me. Why retake the throne when you can defend it?

The fun thing about unexpected betrayal is that you can't really do it twice. Vershe was one of the strongest things in the setting and was able to be taken off of the board because of trust that they broke.

The contingency for 'what to do if Liz limps home with a broken Vershe' almost certainly involves using the leverage and resources gained in their absence that they would have been unable to amass otherwise. Coming back early would interrupt that process. If they could take Vershe off of the board easily then they wouldn't have to show their hand like they did.

They might have a contingency to deal with a rank 4 Armament limping back home without any signficant repairs. Not likely to have one for a Rank ~8 Armament that's there twice as fast as they thought it would be.
It's been a month. Coups aren't known for dallying when they consolidate power. The push to return to the Human Sphere is based on a superstition that returning in 2 months is safe but 3 months is not. All of Rihaku's warnings about "events in the Human sphere proceeding as scheduled" refer to things that were already in the works when Hunger first met Letrizia. The time to interrupt their plot was back then, before we took the scenic route to the Temple, before we took a vacation in the Elixir Springs, and before we spent a week traveling directly away from Voyaging City.

We just got hit with Chains of Fate by underestimating an opponent who was not even prepared for Hunger's skill-set, specifically. The Lord Protector had a guardian waiting in the Tower just in case somebody swung by to visit Adorie. It is the height of arrogance to repeat our decision to stroll into Letrizia's house and simply assume that there's nothing that can hurt us. Didn't they already manage to defeat a full-power Versch while keeping their assets secret? Much heavier ordinance can be deployed when they can move without worry of being detected. We know for a fact that anti-Rank abilities exist: deploying anti-Armament level munitions would, coincidentally, neuter Hunger's current build (even with OaF).
 
[X]Into the Breach
[X]Priority Two
[X]All Defeating Stance


I'm fine with either ADS or OaF but I'm not fine with losing the negotiations. Best to take ADS and guarantee the win.
 
[x]Into the Breach
[x]Priority Two
[x]All Defeating Stance

The Long Voyage does fit our previous actions better but Hunger listens to no lion-thing! No one tells him what to do!
 
TBH, I feel like delaying OaF+KoW when we don't know if we can generate sufficient Arete to get it before we fight the Lord Protector to get it is a dangerous move.

More importantly though, taking advantage of the SYNERGY opened up by the choice of our previous EFBs as soon as possible sounds generally wise.
 
1429 words of setting dump. I'm pretty happy with the responses so far.
The trouble isn't doing cool things, or even doing a lot of cool things. The trouble is that if the MC is sent on different (potentially unrelated) quests each day then there's not as much room for personal plans and goals. I think the Geas of Indenture feels toothless on account of 2500 years being too long for questers to comprehend (especially when 4 months IRL advances the plot barely 1 month in-universe). But the Geas of Labor overcompensates in the opposite direction: if there is a new task every single day and a severe punishment for failure then where is the room for our MC to do exciting things that we decide? This curse cedes too much narrative agency to the Accursed imo.

As it stands, the real curse is that we never get a break. Like how it was Always Winter but Never Christmas in Narnia: Always Monday, never the Weekend. I'd be fine if the tasks were weekly, with punishments leading into monthly tasks. But being buried day after under an unending pile of new work sounds much too close to my IRL conception of Office Space hell. (Plus, tbh, would you really want to be forced to generate a new quest hook each day if you were writing this quest for real?)
If I was writing this quest for real I would simply integrate the Labours into things you'd already be doing; it's essentially a difficulty modifier. It would also be an opportunity to introduce some things I want you to see in a diagetic way, which I think is useful. These Curse write-ups are long enough I kind of don't like putting all the details in one go, but it might be necessary given different interpretations. I know how I would both play and write the Geas, and that might be causing some miscommunication. But even still, what are the odds you keep getting day-long tasks for a week straight? Given infinite time I'm certain there will be a year where you will be given nothing but day-long tasks, but I'm also certain that year will not be the first one of the quest.
Time loops are indeed broken. I missed the divination / scrying defense for The Apostle, that is another major bonus. This option was why I asked about the MC's short-term combat capacity: I'd be happy to take Apostle with almost any given Curse loadout if I wasn't so focused on immediate combat power.

Pitching Embroidery as tinker tech makes me want it even more, but doesn't Parabellum boost Embroidery more than The Apostle? In a proper build vote I'd be clamoring for details about the magic system that the MC would already know. Is it important to have an errand-boy to collect reagents / input materials for our existing Embroidery talent? What kind of effects can alchemy accomplish in the hands of someone who hasn't been awakened? A small push of Devil's Advocacy would have me all-in for The Apostle, but you would have to provide that push.
I would say your most powerful resource is in fact your family in the hills, but that's not exactly a magic system; though Alchemy is relevant in such topics as the first update said. The Apostle choice will decide whether it boosts Embroidery or not, though nothing will beat TSH for long-term potential.

Embroidery is boosted by special materials; while theoretically any effect at this level of reality can be achieved through simple thread and cloth with enough effort; in practice super materials are necessary for the more special powers. Which is another thing your kinship with the hills aids you with, by the way. Not only just in terms of actually finding the materials; your very hair is actually a powerful Thread with affinities to Earth, Stone, Hills, Igneous Rock, etc. She has actually brainstormed whether she could essentially make an Embroidery with just her hairstyle before; and such on-hand materials have definitely come up in sticky situations. Normally she would already have tried to make a basic Embroidery using her hair and the common cloth of her clothes, but she's not only wounded but suffering something very similar to the Exhausted/Tired condition; she can't make the necessary exertion of the soul right now. That would change with a bit of rest, however.

Alchemy, much like Embroidery, can do anything; some Doctors even say Embroidery is just applied Alchemy. In fact, I thought I had already written something to that effect, but on reflection it likely stayed in a discarded draft.

The principle mechanism of Alchemy is the sympathy between Heaven and Earth; as above, so below as they say. It is the principle source of automation in the fabled realm and essentially incorporates what most would recognize as "scientific knowledge" into itself as they apply to this universe. This is more of an aesthetic similarity however.

Really, the totality of Alchemy is as broad to cover as the totality of science; but the most active and iconic of it's effects is the power of Transformation and Transmutation. Passive knowledge without Initiation means you cannot perform any active effects; though Doctor expertise can make machines and/or automated rituals of all stripes that accept non-Initiated operation and maintenance. No self replicating machines have been succefully created thus far; a soul is too integral to the process. This is one reason why the Homunculus is considered a holy grail of Alchemy.

Passive knowledge helps in fighting against Alchemy the most; it also helps when designing Embroideries, though not the actual work. If you are Initiated you can also make rituals to create special materials for Tassels as well. Most processes that involve some sort or transformation or transmutation are also helped by Passive knowledge in terms of increasing effectiveness or efficiency.

Passive knowledge is pretty good for you as a Speaker specifically though, since you have direct communication with the "Earth" part of "Heaven and Earth". Many effects that would usually require Initiation can be realized with the friendly cooperation of the local hills, and with much greater scope; which can be both a positive and a negative. You also have access to the Books of Heaven written in the stars and its flow of sympathy in the Earth, meaning you actually have an insane advantage in ritual crafting most Doctors would kill for. It's basically impossible for people to design rituals without Initiation given they lack the insight brought on by accessing the Mind of God, but Speakers are exception to that; the knowledge of the Book of Heaven and the ability to check it in quasi-real-time, even in a second hand way, is enough to make some pretty killer stuff. You can't transmit the pure knowledge of the Book to non-kin but rituals designed using it are totally fine. This is not even the end of their utility for Alchemy, just the least esoteric, in a sense.

Essentially, there's a reason why the Government drags any Speakers they can to their centers of power by force, they are pretty OP.
I was thinking that the ritual would be a useful way for the discerning murder-hobo to decide whose Karma gets stolen. Like, I would not want Sangria to activate if we kill a drug addict. Maybe this is one of the ways that our knowledge of Alchemy would come in handy. Or we could let The Apostle take the finishing blow for those whose Karma is worth avoiding.
Sangria is helped by Alchemy in the way most things are helped by Alchemy. But Sangria is actually pretty weird from an Alchemical perspective and it's something that usurps the authority of Heaven in a sense. To have such a reliable way to make a sympathetic connection between two people to the point it can support actual absorption of their traits and even their Karma(!) available to even the non-Initiated is pretty puzzling, to say the least. They can't even come close to reproducing something like that. It's to the point most Doctors if asked about it would just say it has to be a sustained effect by the Devil instead of something arrived at; it simply breaks too many rules.

But yes, Alchemy knowledge does help avoid getting bad Karma. However, your version doesn't need to worry about that; you can always refuse to take Karma, if all the available ones are bad. It's quite the privilege.
To be honest, this has only pushed me more into ravenous Parabellum partisanship. Like, The Apostle would be a desperately needed character to talk to, would demonstrate three cool new magic systems, and comes with Groundhog Day timeloop option (which I absolutely love).

But your description here puts the MC in a covert struggle to steal Karma from government agents. It's very cyberpunk. We could plan a heist!
Heh, people have tried that before, some have even been successful. Most of the important targets of the Goverment are pretty protected, thanks to residing on their center of power and being shielded by Normative Alchemy. Either that or they are a Giant, which is all the protection they need. If Sangria even works on Giants, that is; nobody has been in a position to test that. (I can confirm the improved version in Parabellum would work though.)
Please do! I haven't been able to predict any of the worldbuilding elements that you have introduced and they are all very interesting and evocative. You've echoed the Rihaku style without copying his aesthetics, which basically makes me go feral about the possibility that you'll keep expanding different setting elements.
Wow, that's high praise.

Like pretty much all works, the only original part of it is in the combination and execution. All of the setting elements are taken from either: Brazilian folklore; Brazilian historical events and anecdotes; or Brazilian high literature based on those folklore and history elements (some even call such works "fantastical realism" lul). There might be legitimately nothing like it as "fantasy setting".

Of course, the biggest problem is that my reach currently exceeds my grasp in this topic. Since I've never seen anything like it, I'm basically making this stuff from scratch, and researching this stuff is pretty hard; you simply don't find good net resources. Influential works like Macunaíma can have some pretty good resources if you know Portuguese, but second tier works like Cobra-Norato or specific local folklore like Labutu, Dry-men, etc. Pretty much need actual local books to have any decent reference. And of course, if you don't know Portuguese you can forget about all of this. I was using my Uni library for some of this stuff, especially regarding some interesting academic papers, but that's not an option anymore due to recent circumstances.

The ideal situation would be to permanently make camp inside the Library of São Paulo, since it's the motherload for this stuff and has some pretty cool resources not available elsewhere, like actual recordings of native myth passed through oral tradition. But moving to São Paulo is a bit of pipe-dream, especially at the moment.

If I ever approach writing this seriously, I'd require a ton more research, simply because what I'm writing right now is basically based on stuff I half-remember plus whatever resources I find online. Even the brief material I could find more of when in the middle of writing this makes me want to change things significantly. This is almost like an Alpha version of the setting, and of course made to fit in the broader Rihaku-verse cosmology. I think the research for a more serious approach would result in a much more flavorful setting, so I think it's something fully worth it. Again, it's just a pipe-dream at the moment, but I really think something like this should exist, and I'm glad other people like it and I'm not actually insane. That's good.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top