ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
I'm liking the way What Rains May Come is being described. It might be a good alternative to Vigor Incarnate... But it misses out on Gisena and Aeira participating, which is an issue.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Philippines
Alright, bear with me while I try to pick around for some salient points, and add in a number of conjectures.
Picking Cut Through earns us one more pick. That pick will allow us to frontload as much personal and effective power we can for Hunger. Anything that allows him to kill harder and last longer becomes an immediate concern. As we'll be facing off Immortals, arguably the strongest forces the temple has to offer, we'll also probably need to somehow drown ourselves in the omake mines to get enough arete for another Stance. MDS, most likely, to try and counter the Immortals who are on duty.
I don't think we have any actionable information on the Immortals that are active. We know they'll be strong, guarding the ring, and would most likely retain a good chunk of their strength even when the Ring is removed from its containment. The risk is frontloaded on Hunger, and increases the severity after every match. If we don't kill one fast enough, then we'll most likely be outnumbered.
In the event that we do end up killing one, the ring might take a while still to properly digest the power being provided. We might not be able to get any Pick dependent advancements between the fights.
Picking Rebellion, on the other hand, spreads the risk along a period of time and across individuals instead of just Hunger. As we'll be meeting up with Gisena at the very least (I am unsure if Aeira will be left behind to assist/bodyguard Letrizia due to Apocrypha), we'll have at least one competent commander on our side. The biggest issue this vote has is not what advancement we have to pick, but the probability of gaining worthwhile pawns. Though Hunger has skill and experience in galvanizing the common man, no amount of overtly expendable bodies will provide a strong enough distraction to benefit from them.
And I don't think we've got enough +Heartlessness that Hunger can order the common man to their deaths for so marginal chances of additional treachery. We've also seen how trivialized the Out Riders have become in the latest update. Literal ragdolls. Couldn't even catch up to us. And even then, Gramps took a lot to defeat. Understandable, Gramps was a retired High Marshall which was considered Over Kill even for an individual that managed to kill Vanreir. But that does not detract from the fact that there are other High Marshalls who might have Evocations that are more apt for decimation of groups made of weak individuals.
Not to mention the success rate of flipping Outriders, who I suppose will be our main guerrilla force for the rebellion, will be colored by the fact that some of them have dedicated so much of their shit into getting into good graces of the Inners. Some would surely say fuck that and actively sabotage the operation. Thankfully, due to Guile Defeating, any such treachery will be exposed to Hunger before hand.
How, then, can we ensure that the chances of a successful rebellion go up? What are the resources available to us? Would we have enough Blood Rank to force Verse into the Temple to assist in the subjugation of the Immortals? How long are we planning to make the rebellion last? Will there be pitstops for pick advancements if we do get into fights? What are the attached consequences to having Hunger relive his days as a Hero? Inciting people to their likely deaths against their supers?
How would it affect the infrastructure that supports the way of life, besides powering everything down? How would Hunger benefit from this course of action beyond saving the ring? Once the Ring is saved, wouldn't a lot of the weaker soul evocators lose their powers?
Oof. A lot of questions and conjectures here. Some have been mentioned before, and I think others are just reworded understandings of what others have already said.
All on top of Apocrypha coming online to greet everybody Hi.
Picking Cut Through earns us one more pick. That pick will allow us to frontload as much personal and effective power we can for Hunger. Anything that allows him to kill harder and last longer becomes an immediate concern. As we'll be facing off Immortals, arguably the strongest forces the temple has to offer, we'll also probably need to somehow drown ourselves in the omake mines to get enough arete for another Stance. MDS, most likely, to try and counter the Immortals who are on duty.
I don't think we have any actionable information on the Immortals that are active. We know they'll be strong, guarding the ring, and would most likely retain a good chunk of their strength even when the Ring is removed from its containment. The risk is frontloaded on Hunger, and increases the severity after every match. If we don't kill one fast enough, then we'll most likely be outnumbered.
In the event that we do end up killing one, the ring might take a while still to properly digest the power being provided. We might not be able to get any Pick dependent advancements between the fights.
Picking Rebellion, on the other hand, spreads the risk along a period of time and across individuals instead of just Hunger. As we'll be meeting up with Gisena at the very least (I am unsure if Aeira will be left behind to assist/bodyguard Letrizia due to Apocrypha), we'll have at least one competent commander on our side. The biggest issue this vote has is not what advancement we have to pick, but the probability of gaining worthwhile pawns. Though Hunger has skill and experience in galvanizing the common man, no amount of overtly expendable bodies will provide a strong enough distraction to benefit from them.
And I don't think we've got enough +Heartlessness that Hunger can order the common man to their deaths for so marginal chances of additional treachery. We've also seen how trivialized the Out Riders have become in the latest update. Literal ragdolls. Couldn't even catch up to us. And even then, Gramps took a lot to defeat. Understandable, Gramps was a retired High Marshall which was considered Over Kill even for an individual that managed to kill Vanreir. But that does not detract from the fact that there are other High Marshalls who might have Evocations that are more apt for decimation of groups made of weak individuals.
Not to mention the success rate of flipping Outriders, who I suppose will be our main guerrilla force for the rebellion, will be colored by the fact that some of them have dedicated so much of their shit into getting into good graces of the Inners. Some would surely say fuck that and actively sabotage the operation. Thankfully, due to Guile Defeating, any such treachery will be exposed to Hunger before hand.
How, then, can we ensure that the chances of a successful rebellion go up? What are the resources available to us? Would we have enough Blood Rank to force Verse into the Temple to assist in the subjugation of the Immortals? How long are we planning to make the rebellion last? Will there be pitstops for pick advancements if we do get into fights? What are the attached consequences to having Hunger relive his days as a Hero? Inciting people to their likely deaths against their supers?
How would it affect the infrastructure that supports the way of life, besides powering everything down? How would Hunger benefit from this course of action beyond saving the ring? Once the Ring is saved, wouldn't a lot of the weaker soul evocators lose their powers?
Oof. A lot of questions and conjectures here. Some have been mentioned before, and I think others are just reworded understandings of what others have already said.
All on top of Apocrypha coming online to greet everybody Hi.
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Apocryphal shouldn't be online for another two days though!
- Location
- Italy
What Rains May Come is the absolutely, amazingly, extraordinarily best option and I'm not saying this just because I have this picture of a resentless Hunger having most of his body turned to mush and still fighting on as some horrifying blood shade as the upgrade and Crimson Flare keep holding is body together while also boosting all our stats by a crapton!
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Can I make the case for
[X] Cut
[X] Forebear's Blade - What Rains May Come.
The most important benefit, I think, is that it inverts wound penalties. As in, wound penalties become wound bonuses, as long as they're not self-inflicted.
In our current situation, that gives us an effective net +9.9 CON, +20% to all future CON gains and +800% resistance to poison and disease indefinitely, and a temporary net +0.5 Rank, +6.0 AGI, +7.4 STR, +0.4 PROT, +2.1 WILL, +1.2 INT, +2.7 WITS, +3.6 CHA, +0.8 MAN and +0.6 WIS for the next 24 hours. That's more Rank than Shameless (for 24 hours, admittedly) AND more +Stats than Arisen Blood (and as an always on effect rather than requiring full health), all for zero Arete.
Second, once per month we can take all of the wounds that an ally has suffered, heal them and then apply the penalties our ally would have suffered as a buff to ourself. For as long as the injury would have lasted. Could we talk our new poisons expert Aeira and our into making our liver EVEN WORSE, then conconcting some hideous toxic maiming for us to siphon off of one of our other allies? Probably!
[X] Cut
[X] Forebear's Blade - What Rains May Come.
The most important benefit, I think, is that it inverts wound penalties. As in, wound penalties become wound bonuses, as long as they're not self-inflicted.
In our current situation, that gives us an effective net +9.9 CON, +20% to all future CON gains and +800% resistance to poison and disease indefinitely, and a temporary net +0.5 Rank, +6.0 AGI, +7.4 STR, +0.4 PROT, +2.1 WILL, +1.2 INT, +2.7 WITS, +3.6 CHA, +0.8 MAN and +0.6 WIS for the next 24 hours. That's more Rank than Shameless (for 24 hours, admittedly) AND more +Stats than Arisen Blood (and as an always on effect rather than requiring full health), all for zero Arete.
Second, once per month we can take all of the wounds that an ally has suffered, heal them and then apply the penalties our ally would have suffered as a buff to ourself. For as long as the injury would have lasted. Could we talk our new poisons expert Aeira and our into making our liver EVEN WORSE, then conconcting some hideous toxic maiming for us to siphon off of one of our other allies? Probably!
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- Location
- Italy
That's a valid concern, but What Rains May Come is both an extremely option available for the reckless situation we would be jumping in but also costs us no arete.
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
You should reread our fight with the Librarian. Having Gisena with us is in no way close to an perfect counter against magic. She can also only neutralise physical magic shit mostly. And she can be killed since it looks like we might be outnumbered against foes roughly on the same level as us.
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ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Between Cut/Rains and Foment/Incarnate I'm not sure what the choice with better odds of victory is, but we have heard that Foment Rebellion is more likely to work. So I'm going to stay on that for now.
- Location
- Italy
I'll admit, I'm advocating for What Rains May Come taking into consideration only the wound penalties we might receive in subsequent battles. If it really does apply to conditions we're currently suffering from then it goes from "scary good" to "my god why aren't we picking this already".
Blorcyn
Canon quaquaversal
- Location
- United Kingdom
I would consider that the ring we're fighting is soul not blood related, and that immortals are likely most affected by this of those we've faced. We may expect to find no purchase from the ring of blood ok the Immortals on a Blood-build, I suspect.
- Location
- Italy
Please consider that most people won't start voting for What Rains May Come unless it looks like it's gaining ground. You can always change votes later if no one else ends up getting interested.
Edit: Reread and you're actually not voting for it for different reasons than it just not being the leading option at the moment. Sorry about that!
Though I do think that if Foment Rebellion is the option with better odds, it also is the one that risks leading to a very problematic outcome, that is us gaining some traction but not enough to win quickly and for the Inner Residents to fortify against us. If we lose too much time we'll have an Apocryphal proc against us in a situation that's already a mess without it, and I don't need to tell anyone of how bad that would be.
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[X] Cut
[X] Forebear's Blade - What Rains May Come.
I don't think the availability of blood is a huge concern, based on what we've seen. But this is quite appealing regardless.
[X] Forebear's Blade - What Rains May Come.
I don't think the availability of blood is a huge concern, based on what we've seen. But this is quite appealing regardless.
- Location
- Italy
[X] Cut
[X] Forebear's Blade - What Rains May Come.
Very well then, consolidating to my preferred option. I'm getting hyped!
[X] Forebear's Blade - What Rains May Come.
Very well then, consolidating to my preferred option. I'm getting hyped!
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- Location
- Pindorama
@Rihaku Does Cut reverse conditions as well? They are technically not wound penalties.
I don't know why @Rihaku keeps assuming we will buy Hero-Defeating Stance when we have expressed repeated disinterest in it. Or why he thinks King plus ADS is at all viable right now since we have committed ourselves to Trinity. Does he actually think we will pick the most "synergistic" option after all this time?
Just getting EFBs to ignore Rank is not at all feasible; so I do think we want to pick up Rank when it's available. Espeically since getting it in the future will be harder if we aren't performing legendary feats, while picks can be gotten whenever. Rank now and Vigor later has much more value to us.
I don't know why @Rihaku keeps assuming we will buy Hero-Defeating Stance when we have expressed repeated disinterest in it. Or why he thinks King plus ADS is at all viable right now since we have committed ourselves to Trinity. Does he actually think we will pick the most "synergistic" option after all this time?
Just getting EFBs to ignore Rank is not at all feasible; so I do think we want to pick up Rank when it's available. Espeically since getting it in the future will be harder if we aren't performing legendary feats, while picks can be gotten whenever. Rank now and Vigor later has much more value to us.
Charisma only helps when convincing people; Rank helps with that and with finding the right allies and with leading them correctly! It's an absolutely versatile choice that helps with all possible actions we can take!
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
It doesn't help that much at all if immortals or someone powerful in the temple doesn't have blood. It's already heavily implied that there might be an Lich or Liches in there. So it might behove us to take an option that massively increases our durability that would be helpful in an variety of situations while keeping our options open.
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Hmm, well. I don't think Rains reverses our complications (would be more than an increase of 60-70% otherwise), but it's one of the greatest improvements to our combat strength even so. It had also been my favorite option when we first saw it after the Ber fight, so it's quite tempting to do away with all other considerations and just Cut. If we succeed, the Immortals will be heavily weakened as the result, our own Ring will have grown even stronger, and we would have had a new Ring that we could give to one of our companions. That would change the balance of forces quite heavily in our favor. Afterwards we would be more or less free to deal with the populace as we see fit, and might not even need to spend any additional Arete for Stances or the like anymore, so we could S A V E for the next EFB.
The problem with that course of action is that it frontloads the risk and bets that we'll be able to overcome the Immortals guarding the Azure Ring. We don't know their exact powers, numbers and readiness, so it's hard to tell what level of challenge we can expect. They've probably gotten rusty after all these years of peace and prosperity, but we don't have any way to know to which extent. Though our 'winning' condition isn't necessarily defeating them, just reaching the Ring and freeing it, so all we need to do is escape towards the Ring, not stand and fight them to the death. Assuming they won't be able to stall and trap us somehow.
Cut also has the advantage of likely finishing it all up before Apocrypha goes online, whereas Fomenting Rebellion will have to contend with Apocrypha while setting up things and making war against the Immortals. Even if we'd outscaled Apocrypha somewhat for now, it's still not a fun thought.
Still voting Foment Rebellion for now, but the other option is quite attractive in its simplicity, so I'll think about it some more.
The problem with that course of action is that it frontloads the risk and bets that we'll be able to overcome the Immortals guarding the Azure Ring. We don't know their exact powers, numbers and readiness, so it's hard to tell what level of challenge we can expect. They've probably gotten rusty after all these years of peace and prosperity, but we don't have any way to know to which extent. Though our 'winning' condition isn't necessarily defeating them, just reaching the Ring and freeing it, so all we need to do is escape towards the Ring, not stand and fight them to the death. Assuming they won't be able to stall and trap us somehow.
Cut also has the advantage of likely finishing it all up before Apocrypha goes online, whereas Fomenting Rebellion will have to contend with Apocrypha while setting up things and making war against the Immortals. Even if we'd outscaled Apocrypha somewhat for now, it's still not a fun thought.
Still voting Foment Rebellion for now, but the other option is quite attractive in its simplicity, so I'll think about it some more.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Let's see how this plays out!
[X] Cut
[X] Forebear's Blade - What Rains May Come.
[X] Cut
[X] Forebear's Blade - What Rains May Come.
- Location
- Italy
Might as well say it right here and not just in an edit, have we considered the Foment Rebellion's risk of us wasting too much time and the Apocryphal Curse deciding that it has waited enough and now it's the time to ruin Hunger's life, with all this wonderful moving pieces that just need to be gently nudged the right way to make our life hell?
