Yeah, we are not under a threat of the Apocryphal Curse because we choose a different danger instead - the Temple. And we have absolutely no assurances that we are even close to outscaling that one. So yes, I am choosing the option that gives us more short-term power because we are still facing a lot of short-term threats.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Rihaku
The Internet
Something that can't be blocked? I think you already know the Forebear's solution.
And of course, there are attacks specialized against Protection as well! You fought a man with one.
Is it really superlatively good, though? What does it actually give you, and what do the alternatives give you? Under which parameters is it superlatively good, and are those parameters appropriate to your build and its situation?
Can you? That assumes much about votes you'll be offered next. Plus, do you really want your surge to be "I heal the Evening Sky and hit people with it" when you could get a direct magic system out of it?
Wouldn't Edeldross split your focus less, since actually using Inksky requires investing picks into Evening Sky options that would otherwise be deployed into Blood Advancements and Sword techniques? Edeldross can be researched by Gisena, lessening the burden on Hunger himself! And of course, Quickwater's % AGI boost and flat Rank boost are good in almost any situation, and already synergistic with Hunger's build.
All surges can easily grow to cosmic scale, that's one of their inherent features!
You did pay 2 Arete for Sublime Attainment, which empowers her significantly...
It's not efficient until you actually take Pillars, though. Until then the discount does nothing. How 'efficient' is an effect that requires you to have 20 banked Arete to use?
- Location
- Pindorama
Yes, that would actually be amazing and extremely appropriate for Hunger as well.
If we are planning to take Pillars anyway, very. It's not just the raw Arete amount; any discount to it increases the times where it would be available if we give a sudden push for it and makes succeeding in that push more likely. It heightens the our chances of getting it more than the raw Arete would imply. There's not much difference between 18 and 20, after all.
In time we can make planet sized fist with the Evening sky. Puny graces or some mist will never compare. Tengen toppa gurren lagann gang, this is the path to throwing galaxies towards our enemies.
Participants in this quest, do you wish to have some magic that will take time to learn and distract us from SORD or become the Evening Sky itself. Just imagine our legend if we actually carry the Evening Sky on our shoulder and it is not a hyperbole.
We can re-enact the whole 'This is no moon' scene with us being a massive SORD or Fist made from our Panoply.
I would love to argue more, but I don't have the time for that atm. Also too much on the fence about Inksky vs Edeldross, with considerations of safety vs. investment flipping me back and forth. I think both have their own merits when it comes to a e s t e t i q u e, so that isn't something I can argue about either.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
What really chaps my britches about Inksky is that it isn't really a magic system. We have had some really impassioned arguments about giving the Mage Gang a chance to sky and now their 7 Arete is being eaten by Accretion. If the Ring's subtle blood upgrades don't qualify as a magic system then it really seems baffling that the potential for STATS from Evening Sky would scratch their itch.
Quickwater is definitely a magic system; even if you don't like potions it provides the opportunity to do experiments with Letrizia & Gisena. It also carries insane STATS (like the graces we were offered from Wreath & the Soul Evocation option from Unerring). Most importantly, Quickwater combines with Nightmare Praetor to reward us for picking battles that we can plan for.
Edeldross has potential combinations with Gisena and promises crazy innovations culminating in insight about Findross. (I don't have any nostalgia for Findross so this isn't a weighty consideration for me but Gisena Gang sure seems to like it.)
The benefits of non-Sky surges really seem to dwarf the immediate benefit of Inksky. Inksky is a deliberate detour away from our newly coherent build path that requires admitting that (1) you don't care about Rank, (2) you don't care about STATS, and (3) you are so confident we'll survive to grab Ruling Ring that you're already moving on to locking-in our third EFB.
That last point is particularly insidious: Inksky precommits (blackmails) the thread into buying Pillars next.
Quickwater is definitely a magic system; even if you don't like potions it provides the opportunity to do experiments with Letrizia & Gisena. It also carries insane STATS (like the graces we were offered from Wreath & the Soul Evocation option from Unerring). Most importantly, Quickwater combines with Nightmare Praetor to reward us for picking battles that we can plan for.
Edeldross has potential combinations with Gisena and promises crazy innovations culminating in insight about Findross. (I don't have any nostalgia for Findross so this isn't a weighty consideration for me but Gisena Gang sure seems to like it.)
The benefits of non-Sky surges really seem to dwarf the immediate benefit of Inksky. Inksky is a deliberate detour away from our newly coherent build path that requires admitting that (1) you don't care about Rank, (2) you don't care about STATS, and (3) you are so confident we'll survive to grab Ruling Ring that you're already moving on to locking-in our third EFB.
That last point is particularly insidious: Inksky precommits (blackmails) the thread into buying Pillars next.
[X] The Streamline
Gotta save money for guns. Also Hunger isn't Nameless, he's got a 5 star resort he doesn't need a sixth star.
[X] 7 Arete Version
RIP save-gang, RIP ring, I'm doing my part to generate Arete though so I am guilt free.
[X] Edeldross
I wrote that long essay about Edeldross so now I'm obligated to vote for it, since that's the only way I'll learn if I was correct. All three options are amazing though.
Gotta save money for guns. Also Hunger isn't Nameless, he's got a 5 star resort he doesn't need a sixth star.
[X] 7 Arete Version
RIP save-gang, RIP ring, I'm doing my part to generate Arete though so I am guilt free.
[X] Edeldross
I wrote that long essay about Edeldross so now I'm obligated to vote for it, since that's the only way I'll learn if I was correct. All three options are amazing though.
Rihaku
The Internet
Your argument was that it lets you take Pearlescence due to efficiency, but if you take Pearlescence you'll still need 29 more Arete for the build (9 + 20), which isn't particularly efficient and still only applies if people go for Pillars first over Ruling Ring.
You're free to cite any case where the 1) I was "virtually the only person" arguing for an option and 2) judged omake power would not correspond to a reasonable reading of the omake list, leading to that option's victory. Go ahead, I'll wait! It's not as if you'd make a drive-by insinuation with no evidence?
Again, you could do that with any surge. You could do that with a 0 Arete surge!
As noted earlier, Inksky is even more likely to distract you from SORD since it introduces competing Advancements!
DarkSideBard
Flying, without moving on
If we're nowhere near the ability to tackle the Temple, even given the absurd and unexpected gains we've gathered over what was supposed to be our "vacation" period, then we were always fucked no matter what, and we should just simply walk away. Yes, we barely scraped by Vanreir. Actually, we've continually barely scraped by, even with the Apocryphal Curse off, no matter what we've taken. Why would you believe that this means splitting our focus will increase our safety? The other two picks here both require deliberate development and focus to be more useful, even if they superficially appear to offer greater stats.
You can't claim that Sword Praxis is a reason not to take InkSky. Literally all of the available elements require deliberate development and focus to be more useful, which takes away from spending time on the potential side of our new EFB. Of them, only Inksky offers a completely neutral defensive upgrade that doesn't immediately require a bunch of time to master, and only Inksky offers more actual safety. Going much faster, in a mist you have to lay down yourself, which is vulnerable to being blown away is not that safe. Learning to internally channel a specific element takes up time that could just be spent on Sword Praxis.
Okay, but you realize that not all threats are short-term, right? It's perfectly possible for you to optimize towards the local temple threats in a way that drastically decreases our long term safety. The safest long term route is to not split our time between learning an element and learning Sword Praxis, and simply taking InkSky and dropping picks into it's proportionally efficient defensive advancements.
I would argue that this is an effective short-term strategy too, even if it's not the most effective. Optimizing for value isn't just about picking the immediately safest path. Sometimes you have to take more risks now to take less risks overall, instead of simply ignoring that we'll have to keep playing in an unfriendly universe even if we beat the Temple.
It's a superlatively good Evening Sky upgrade, yes. It's hard to imagine getting another chance to make Evening Sky relevant. Even if protection is really good (seeing as relying on recovery simply means that we encounter a disproportionate number of enemies that leave significant unhealable maluses in their wake), we won't take it without significant incentive, which has just been even further tanked by the Uttermost -% value.
The way I see it, taking this now is necessary, or one of these days the number of complications we have will stack up into an inescapable death spiral. Assuming that Cut Through covers our offensive parameters, Pillars+Ruling Ring can handle a significant amount of the necessary utility, and that recovery is fundamentally incapable of doing the job on its own, protection is the big hole in our build.
Both of the alternatives are good, but they don't patch the problem. They simply toss more stats on top of the strengths we have already, while taking time directly away from our primary offensive direction (Cut Through) for any further development of utility or strength.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
1. Temple which was ouright stated to be trap option.
2. Hunger which is committed to freeing the ring no matter what.
3. Quickwater which is instantly synergistic.
4. No option is neutral. Inksky promotes Iridiscence+Pillars in the future.
5. "Element can be negated due to unlucky circumstance" is a nonargument as it applies to everything.
1. Quickwater. Instant synergy.
2. Inksky promotes other Evening Sky options. This encourages splitting.
1. You've just argued that we need to avoid splitting our focus and asserting we have to make Evening Sky relevent and competitive with other options in the same post.
2. Complications come from facing enemies stronger than us, not due to a lack of a specific stat.
3. See earlier points.
- Location
- Pindorama
Rihaku is literally carrying Edeldross in his back right now argument-wise, which is really annoying cause I want to sleep but without someone to push back the vote can easily turn. How aggravating.
Of course I care about Rank and Stats, but mechanical considerations don't triumph over narrative ones for me. I want the Evening Sky to be more important, so I'm voting for actions that enhance it. I think the stats the other provide will be fully compensated by Inksky in the future anyway. I don't want to sacrifice the future to live in the present, that's a dangerous mindset to have.
Also, remember when we pre-commited for Once and Future? That sure bound our actions for the rest of thread, am I right? It's not like we even chose a different EFB for the Blade or anything.
But then we get to benefit from Pearlescence, Rihaku. We'd be 29 away instead of 34 away. That's why I said it's a compromise. I want to invest in the Evening Sky, and this goes beyond mechanical considerations. It's still Arete efficient even if get Ruling Ring first, as long as we spend the Arete eventually, and the earlier we prepare for an EFB the better.
Yes, Inksky is somehow detours from our build path by choosing to enhance one of our Accretion artifacts we payed 7 Arete for, very good. Developing Quickwater and Edeldorss isn't a detour at all, despite not being related to any of Hunger's capabilities right now. Yes, very good. Didn't we just get the Praxis, anyway?
Of course I care about Rank and Stats, but mechanical considerations don't triumph over narrative ones for me. I want the Evening Sky to be more important, so I'm voting for actions that enhance it. I think the stats the other provide will be fully compensated by Inksky in the future anyway. I don't want to sacrifice the future to live in the present, that's a dangerous mindset to have.
Also, remember when we pre-commited for Once and Future? That sure bound our actions for the rest of thread, am I right? It's not like we even chose a different EFB for the Blade or anything.
Last edited:
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
Cut Through can also be used in defense! The King Stands Alone would have allowed us to Cut Spiritual and Mental attacks!
Honestly, I think there is synergy between Evening Sky and Edeldross too even if it's not as good as Inksky. Magic comes under the domain of Evening Sky as well and it gave us Findross options previously. There are probably some good Findross-Edeldross-Evening Sky Conjunctional advancements locked behind the combination.
Honestly, I think there is synergy between Evening Sky and Edeldross too even if it's not as good as Inksky. Magic comes under the domain of Evening Sky as well and it gave us Findross options previously. There are probably some good Findross-Edeldross-Evening Sky Conjunctional advancements locked behind the combination.
Last edited:
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Look, guys, this isn't hard, the options just prioritize different things:
Swiftwater: Instant synergy, power & safety now.
Inksky: More magic, more Evening Sky, Pillars later. Least power option.
Edeldross: Relationships, general magic options, middle power option.
There's no need to argue that your preferred choice is the best in all regards and everyone else's points are wrong.
Swiftwater: Instant synergy, power & safety now.
Inksky: More magic, more Evening Sky, Pillars later. Least power option.
Edeldross: Relationships, general magic options, middle power option.
There's no need to argue that your preferred choice is the best in all regards and everyone else's points are wrong.
Findross is generated in proportion to how closely your behavior matches "perfection", where perfection is defined by the maiden. We already know about Gisena acting more like the maiden to get more power, but this rule works for non-sorcereresses as well. Humans born in that world are the same species as the Maiden, explaining why they generate Findross
Elves are findross neutral because they are not human, but not opposed. Orcs are findross negative because they aggressively oppose the maiden's idea of perfection
So we know findross is generated in proportion to how closely your actions match up to perfection, and based on how much findross you've accumulated already. Sorceresses generate more findross than normal humans because findross allows them to emulate the maiden with supernatural skill, and because they've gathered tons of findross.
So what would happen if you ARE perfection? By definition? If you are the maiden, then every action you take is, by definition, an action that perfectly emulates the action the maiden would take. SO basically, what causes a findross singularity is that since your behavior perfectly matches perfection, you generate max findross given your current findross, resulting in your findross income growing faster than the cost of each additional coalescence.
Elves are findross neutral because they are not human, but not opposed. Orcs are findross negative because they aggressively oppose the maiden's idea of perfection
So we know findross is generated in proportion to how closely your actions match up to perfection, and based on how much findross you've accumulated already. Sorceresses generate more findross than normal humans because findross allows them to emulate the maiden with supernatural skill, and because they've gathered tons of findross.
So what would happen if you ARE perfection? By definition? If you are the maiden, then every action you take is, by definition, an action that perfectly emulates the action the maiden would take. SO basically, what causes a findross singularity is that since your behavior perfectly matches perfection, you generate max findross given your current findross, resulting in your findross income growing faster than the cost of each additional coalescence.
- Location
- Pindorama
All the options split our focus, that's kind of inherent to a new magic system. But Quickwater and Edeldross likely take time and picks to develop (with Quickwater being dangerous besides), while Inksky would only need the picks. That frees up our time for other stuff like blood manipulation or the Praxis. Especially the Praxis, for me. So I do think it's more efficient than the other options in that sense. I don't see how the other options wouldn't compete for picks with Blood and Praxis advancements anyway, especially because we've already had a possible Conjunctional Advancement confirmed.
- Location
- Italy
I really really find Evening Sky interesting, I do! And I also agree the Inksky is the one option which would see it rise it to relevance much faster. But that's the problem, doing that would mean splitting our resources even further while Edeldross can (apparently) be researched separately than our Arete and picks thanks to Gisena. And I do also want to obtain Ruling Ring sooner rather than later. Also, Edeldross is literally Mahou Shoujo the power and ironically particularly synergistic with our old man protagonist as well! 
Let's see... Gathers power from our relationships? Those do mean a lot to Hunger and it's not like we're throwing them away without the quest changing significantly. Embodies redemption? We're literally using villain powers for the side of good. Restoration? We've got a lot to restore and just this vote we've managed to reach back to give Hunger a semblance of physical normalcy again. And most importantly, reaching the pinnacle of perfection? Isn't that something only attained with the absolute focus of someone dedicating his entire being into a practice? Like, say, someone who managed to make his very own swordmanship conceptual?
[X] The Kaguya
[X] Edeldross
What I'm trying to say, if we manage to syncretize the attainment of perfection of Edeldross/Findross with our development of the Sword Praxis (and what is that, if not an attainment of perfection?) we might be able to gain from both of them without having to deny the growth of either, and the possibilities from that are just too good for me not to try.
Let's see... Gathers power from our relationships? Those do mean a lot to Hunger and it's not like we're throwing them away without the quest changing significantly. Embodies redemption? We're literally using villain powers for the side of good. Restoration? We've got a lot to restore and just this vote we've managed to reach back to give Hunger a semblance of physical normalcy again. And most importantly, reaching the pinnacle of perfection? Isn't that something only attained with the absolute focus of someone dedicating his entire being into a practice? Like, say, someone who managed to make his very own swordmanship conceptual?
[X] The Kaguya
[X] Edeldross
What I'm trying to say, if we manage to syncretize the attainment of perfection of Edeldross/Findross with our development of the Sword Praxis (and what is that, if not an attainment of perfection?) we might be able to gain from both of them without having to deny the growth of either, and the possibilities from that are just too good for me not to try.
Last edited:
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Picks are our primary way of advancement, that style of focus-splitting is actually the most problematic type. Time is at an all time marginal utility of minimal due to Hunger, remember how Food Cultivation was promoted as being amazing due to giving utility to our time.
Hunger: Chronomancy for more training time? What's that?
I'm not super invested in either Inksky or Edeldross at the moment so I just wanted to caution the thread against accusing of Rihaku of either bias or instigating support of opposing options for devil advocacy's sake or even just straight-up calling him out for lying (not that we have reached this point yet for this particular decision but this is an often-made statement in both previous quests and AST I anyway, though I don't want to name any names). If you feel too invested in voting for a particular option and start focusing on the negatives of other options winning, it might be best to calm down and refocus to instead expound on the positives of your preferred option instead - especially since Rihaku has clarified that positive arguments are weighed more favorably than negative argumentation.
I'm kind of tired of seeing the same accusations leveled at Rihaku every time he starts arguing more aggressively against the thread's or a particular voter's preferred option or interpretation or when he clarifies difficulties with certain options. There's lot of accusations of lying, inherent 'trap votes' or railroading that have been bandied about in Rihaku quests in the past and they're pretty tiresome and uninteresting, especially when you notice the same sentiments echoed in multiple quests over multiple years.
Like Rihaku is just really good at writing things people get invested in, so people will get more heated in their fervor to see their option win. That's only natural and usually positive in that it helps the thread generate more voter participation. Rihaku also likes to participate in 'devil's advocacy' where he tries to argue for losing options so as to engage questers in more discussion and provoke responses and this makes things more personal, eliciting ill-will when it feels like the QM seems to be calling out your preferences as being a bad choice.
But if you consider the QM the 'true enemy' of the quest and that they're bending everything in a certain direction instead of your desired option, it's pretty much self-defeating since the writing of the quest is predicated on Rihaku's enjoyment of writing it. So, y'know, having that trust that Rihaku is a good QM is integral to a functional quest.
I don't think the thread has become toxic or anything, but voters can get too absorbed and over-invested in certain things for what they feel are crucial votes and one person has already quit the thread earlier. So, this is just me kind of venting and letting out my thoughts in the hopes that thread discussion progresses a bit more amiably!
I'm kind of tired of seeing the same accusations leveled at Rihaku every time he starts arguing more aggressively against the thread's or a particular voter's preferred option or interpretation or when he clarifies difficulties with certain options. There's lot of accusations of lying, inherent 'trap votes' or railroading that have been bandied about in Rihaku quests in the past and they're pretty tiresome and uninteresting, especially when you notice the same sentiments echoed in multiple quests over multiple years.
Like Rihaku is just really good at writing things people get invested in, so people will get more heated in their fervor to see their option win. That's only natural and usually positive in that it helps the thread generate more voter participation. Rihaku also likes to participate in 'devil's advocacy' where he tries to argue for losing options so as to engage questers in more discussion and provoke responses and this makes things more personal, eliciting ill-will when it feels like the QM seems to be calling out your preferences as being a bad choice.
But if you consider the QM the 'true enemy' of the quest and that they're bending everything in a certain direction instead of your desired option, it's pretty much self-defeating since the writing of the quest is predicated on Rihaku's enjoyment of writing it. So, y'know, having that trust that Rihaku is a good QM is integral to a functional quest.
I don't think the thread has become toxic or anything, but voters can get too absorbed and over-invested in certain things for what they feel are crucial votes and one person has already quit the thread earlier. So, this is just me kind of venting and letting out my thoughts in the hopes that thread discussion progresses a bit more amiably!
Last edited:
Rihaku
The Internet
Any Evening Sky EFB-equivalent would be relevant without this, as would many 7-Arete Evening options like Philosopher's Wreath. It sounds like what you guys really want is +Protection efficiency, which leads into...
The idea that Protection will reliably prevent you from receiving Conditions when challenging overwhelming opponents. I'm not sure where this idea originated from. Vanreir's build countered Protection, and Hunger's Condition from the Primary Rotspawn was entirely self-inflicted. If you don't want Conditions, getting REALLY powerful and comprehensive healing would be a good bet, or something like taking Exhaustion Resistance options and voting for Exhaustion conditions. The most reliable way would be to fight fewer enemies in the peer-grade and above power categories!
That said, if you guys are really committed to Inksky + Pearlescence, that would certainly be a good combination of immediate power and value over time, though it's still 16 Arete for a non-EFB level of value. But from what I've seen the Pearlescence faction is not big enough to enforce this commitment.
It does discount Total Eclipse, an Evening Sky option!
Hm... does that part really square, though? What species excels more in its chosen domain than the Heroes at war?
Of course. However, "local temple threats" are so powerful that defeating them will buy us a lot of safety because we will outscale all other threats for a while, including the ones Apocryphal provides. After that, Edelross will still be very useful, not in the least because there are other avenues of advancement for it than Hunger personally putting in his time and picks, which will allow him to invest more of his time and risk-taking opportunities into Sword Praxis. Moreover, the variety of advancements it offers is much wider than the protection offered by the Evening Sky, which means we can develop a lot of different powers that complement our style and the situation at hand better Inksky pics. Renewal and restoration that Praxis struggles with would be something we can use with Edelross, for example.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Orcs are Findross-Negative because they're absorbing it nonstop to power their rapid advancement. Humans are Findross-positive because they have no way of storing their Findross, how inefficient. Elves are Findross-'neutral', but they are positive if you count bloodcasting and their blood production as producing Findross.
When is this next time people keep saying that they will pick Evening Sky? We had a one pick vote that offered no great advantage or disadvantage in the next update that will finally allow us to pick up Opalescence to start powering it up and people chose Fierce Quickening. You know, just doubling down on the better stuff why bother with the lame Evening Sky with debuffed protection and charisma. Oh so your worried about magical and conceptual defence? No worries Sword Praxis is here for you to parry those away! Invest more in this juicy Blood advancement for +Progression and the second best stat in agility!
I stated before this update that I would love to see True Quintessnce and I still do. Its just that not picking up Inksky now means it will not be competitive ever because the things it offers is apparently second rate, reduced value from existing debuff or have alternatives offered by the Sword and the Ring.
I stated before this update that I would love to see True Quintessnce and I still do. Its just that not picking up Inksky now means it will not be competitive ever because the things it offers is apparently second rate, reduced value from existing debuff or have alternatives offered by the Sword and the Ring.
- Location
- Pindorama
I think using Edeldross like that would actually hamper the Praxis rather than help it; it ironically detracts from its purity. The themes of both are kind of contradictory in that way.
No option makes time training not suck; offloading Edeldross research to Gisena takes time she could be spending making her own advancements, while Quickwater advancements even without fights are dangerous enough to trigger Hunger, which, yeah. So I think we will invest picks either way, really. I just prefer it to be just that.
Inserted tally