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A Simple Transaction I

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Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we found a way to eventually give him a physical body. For some people, being trapped in Hunger might be indeed a fate worse than death, but in this situation, we gain raw power, and give closure between siblings.

It is my second favorite option, and if Utmost falls behind I will fully support it. Probably will go to the omake mines later...

Unelemental said:
Okay? But this doesn't replace our original Soul Evocation, see how Vanrir combined how own Unerring and his father's Blade to get Unerring Blade, for the low, low price of falling apart dying within three years. Which is a hint not to do something like that until we can bear the strain, I suppose.

I just don't see getting contaminated with a swell linear guy like him as a big malus.
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Not only is he as straightforward as an individual can be, but he is deeply similar to Hunger and likely tied to him in some way. Both might be related. He is literally the best case scenario of mental contamination.

And hell, getting a bit o mental contamination to give a family closure is something that I am willing to do over mental contamination for raw power.
 
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The argument against Uttermost isn't that it lacks power; but that it makes us less able to win fights as we just did. Every part of it is dedicated to making us as linear of a fighter as possible. No Tyrant mitigation ever makes us easier to bait, with less Luck, Wisdom and Charisma to avoid it; less Protection to make us more vulnerable to esoteric attacks and bad-touch effects; and the ridding of Form of Rage loses us a hidden trump card and safety button. For that, we get incredible and simple power.

If you guys didn't vote for Stranglethorn because it pigeon-holed us too much before you definitely shouldn't be taking Uttermost now. We have just seen a victory of lateral thinking against linear thought. Do you really want to leave us similarly vulnerable?

Unelemental said:
The thrust of argumentation against Inheritor is really interesting.
...We're not actually doing it for Erii, guys, I just don't think Vanreir as a drawback is too bad.
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I mean, I think not picking Inheritor would do more for Erii and that picking it is kind of cruel towards her, so I do consider that a drawback.
Unelemental said:
Indirect challenges? I think the intention is to take the associated 25 Arete option and Cut Anyway. How high the chances of getting this 25-Arete instead of getting distracted or going for the Ring is a different question, of course.
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I'm half-tempted to call you out for bad faith debating becuase, yeah, the plan to just pick another 25- Arete option on top of the ones we alredy plan is so reasonable, you guys. I'm being charitable even calling it a plan really.. considering this voterbase...
Rihaku said:
You fundamentally misapprehend the nature of the option. You can directly convey the thoughts of the real him, who is still around, to his sister by acting as a go-between. Again, Vanreir is still there. His soul is still present, though as Hunger's prisoner. Certainly it is preferable to being dead.

But even if the option were as you understood it, I think one should deeply consider the perspective of the bereaved and deceased before labeling something "creepy" and insisting that they instead accept the loss on the basis of your judgement thereof. To be frank, IRL even if that something is "creepy" it would be an extremely small price to pay for even a fraction of what was offered here.
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I've lost people too Rihaku, someone I lived with my whole life. I think I can speak for what I would think of a situation like that; and I still don't like it.

I still don't think that imprisoning someone else's soul and therefore taking on his responsibilities is terribly healthy still. Should we protect the relatives of everyone we kill? It's mere luck that Vanreir can be granted this privilege. I'm still not keen on acting as a replacement brother carrying her real brother around. I don't think we should have a responsibility towards Erii, despite, or even because of the fact we murdered her brother.

And I still want to save Arete for that damn Ruling Ring. Can't do that if we spend 2 Arete every update. This is getting seriously annoying.
 
Dark Abstraction said:
Those options aren't more powerful, they're just differently powerful. Because they offer a gain in some respect, but mandate a loss in another. Having one arm that's stronger instead of two means you can cross swords better but you'll never be able to cross swords with one hand and stab them in the eye with your other hand's dagger. Etc.


It doesn't make them less valuable, it weakens their ability to give value. It means that we receive less protection than we should, or that we struggle to grow wiser, not that we need less protection or don't need to be wiser.
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The bulk of the sacrifice is in giving up form of rage which we were only using to better our percentages which is easier to accomplish with straight power and no more tyrant mitigation which the thread wasn't keen to invest in anyway. I think trading things we weren't using is worth the added power and rank gains.

It makes those picks less valuable in the sense they give less bang for their buck. We've been offered wis and luck before and didn't take it so I'm not sure why it's suddenly unbearable to get less of it in the future.

BrainInAJar said:
If your argument for Uttermost is "We're not using LCK, WIS and CHA anyway", I want you to read the entire last update again. Prior to their standoff, Hunger didn't land a single blow on Vanreir. How did you think he won? It's definitely not because he was physically stronger. Age and Treachery saw the day for him. Choosing to sacrifice that is quite unwise.
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We used Rank and Cha and possibly manipulation to maneavour Van into postion but we beat him with Thousand Cut's used as a bladewind. We also saw earlier that we could counter one of his thrusts with Thousand Cuts. If we'd been able to use it whenever we wanted we probably could have just beaten him straight up. Our Luck and Wis isn't any better than a normal person and Uttermost gives us ++Manipulation which seems more useful on enemies than Charisma.
 
Yes yes, well done no-Rank voters, well done.

HOWEVER

Have you tried getting some Rank? Because this is not just some amount of Rank, we are talking about 0.7 rank! Zero point seven! With just dominion and For we are already fighting at ludicrous Rank 5.75!

Yes, yes, your preferred option does something. But Rank does everything. Fighting? Rank. Social? Rank. Fishing? Rank.

Do you want Unsatteredchads to stop bullying you? Well fuck them, now we can fight at Rank 6 and still have full scaling. Guess who was right about staying after classes to study motherfucker.

Of course, it bears to be mentioned that this is also immidiate and massive upgrade to our Blood casting while immensely increasing the power of FoR/Prominence combo, allowing neat transition to Ruling Ring, which in turn makes this perfect option to take Maimed with.

I will admit that the lack of fellow swordbro inside our head is a grave downside, but no one ever said that getting Rank is easy!
 
The difference is that uttermost is still synergetic with our previous choices, since it makes full use of our agi heavy build, and gives access to an EFB that actually makes sword good an actual viable tactic, unlike strangle thorn.
 
Rihaku said:
Weren't you guys going to take the best option now in order to survive?
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I'm here for an option that meets what I see as the minimum threshhold for survival without complication! Tired + Stranglethorn feels like enough for me, in the same way that Inheritor probably would too. However, I see Stranglethorn as having less inherent risks, more long-term power, and a nice aesthetic.
 
[X] Punctured Soul
[X] The Ring of Power - Inheritor
-[X] The Unerring
[X] Fierce Quickening

This was my first thought when I read the update. I thought you guys wanted us to have another voice in our head!? It gives us the power to survive and triump as well.

The most important thing here is completing the temple as soon as possible and this option I think is best for that. We are an Progressive Cursebearer, if we survive, we can figure out an way to deal with the "drawbacks".
 
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LordOfMurder said:
We used Rank and Cha and possibly manipulation to maneavour Van into postion but we beat him with Thousand Cut's used as a bladewind. We also saw earlier that we could counter one of his thrusts with Thousand Cuts. If we'd been able to use it whenever we wanted we probably could have just beaten him straight up. Our Luck and Wis isn't any better than a normal person and Uttermost gives us ++Manipulation which seems more useful on enemies than Charisma.
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Dude, Vanreir was viable against our Form of Rage. There's a limit to what full stats can provide. Even with Uttermost his thrusts were likely still better, being unable to miss and completely being able to pierce the Evening Sky and all. -30% Wis and Luck might have made us lose that outright even with Uttermost; the fact these stats have not been boosted once makes it even worse. Imagine relying on a linear gameplan when facing against Apocryphal. That'd be dreadful.
DkArthas said:
This was my first thought when I read the update. I thought you guys wanted us to have another voice in our head!? It gives us the power to survive and triump as well.
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Why the hell would we want that? The Strategist was enough for me; thanks.
 
Ugh, I really really hope none of this recent rationale becomes any part of Hungers IC reasoning in the future if Inheritor wins. It's the worst kind of character behavior to me. He didn't give a fuck about the family of Ber's dead party or the Outriders he killed, if all of a sudden his headghost becomes "Special" and requires extra treatment... Hunger's going to lose a lot of what I like about him.

As is the scenario was perfectly satisfactory, two people killing for their own goals, they meet and one dies. The other walks away and continues on, cause that's just how it is when you choose this life.

...But nope! All of a sudden "It's a me! Mario!" he's back, we've caged this guys soul and became a go between for him and his sister.
 
Please. Strategist was the coolest thing about terrascape.

Anyway, people were worried about mental contamination from the Forebear right!? Let me tell you the perfect way to solve that problem, get mental contamination from another dude!? Perhaps, they will "balance" each other out eh? :p
 
Remember guys.

SORD is not an acronym for Suspension Of Repeatedly Dying, but I can understand why people would think such.
 
I don't really care that much about the mechanics of Uttermost. What I care about is that it is character Defining, and it Defines Hunger's character as:
Rihaku said:
Focus beyond absolute focus. To cut what cannot be cut. To pierce what cannot be pierced. To go further and even further beyond in the unrelenting pursuit of perfection. To exert every iota of self, turn every faculty of purpose, bind every testament of will towards a single, unswerving ideal: that is what it means to do one's uttermost. There are no compromises for he who walks the path of the blade.

Do, even if it cannot be done.
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'When the world and an ideal exist in disharmony, it is not the ideal that is wrong.

It is not the ideal that has to change.

It is the world.'
Always find a way.
 
DkArthas said:
Please. Strategist was the coolest thing about terrascape.

Anyway, people were worried about mental contamination from the Forebear right!? Let me tell you the perfect way to solve that problem, get mental contamination from another dude!? Perhaps, they will "balance" each other out eh? :p
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The Strategist was amazing, but Vanrier isn't the Strategist. And I will not accept a poor substitute for Satan, thank you very much.
 
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BrainInAJar said:
The argument against Uttermost isn't that it lacks power; but that it makes us less able to win fights as we just did. Every part of it is dedicated to making us as linear of a fighter as possible. No Tyrant mitigation ever makes us easier to bait, with less Luck, Wisdom and Charisma to avoid it; less Protection to make us more vulnerable to esoteric attacks and bad-touch effects; and the ridding of Form of Rage loses us a hidden trump card and safety button. For that, we get incredible and simple power.

If you guys didn't vote for Stranglethorn because it pigeon-holed us too much before you definitely shouldn't be taking Uttermost now. We have just seen a victory of lateral thinking against linear thought. Do you really want to leave us similarly vulnerable?
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Manipulation is presumably the designated stat for manipulating our enemies into doing what we want like we've done this update, Uttermost gives us 2 of it as well as 2 intelligence letting us draw connections from our enemies to more easily manipulate them. It also gives 7 willpower which presumably protects us against bait somewhat.

Uttermost basically transfers the power of Rage to our base form. Why bother with a panic button that makes you 3 times as strong when you can be 5 times as strong all the time?

I voted for stranglethorn when it was first offered and I still think it's pretty good. I just think Uttermost is better and as a rare 4 pick, very unlikely to come up again while this is the second time we're seeing stranglethorn.

BrainInAJar said:
Dude, Vanreir was viable against our Form of Rage. There's a limit to what full stats can provide. Even with Uttermost his thrusts were likely still better, being unable to miss and completely being able to pierce the Evening Sky and all. -30% Wis and Luck might have made us lose that outright even with Uttermost; the fact these stats have not been boosted once makes it even worse. Imagine relying on a linear gameplan when facing against Apocryphal. That'd be dreadful.
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If we assume an overwhelming difference means the opponent is something like twice as strong as us then when we trigger form of rage we become around 50% stronger than them, actually a bit less because we don't benefit from quickening's stats in form of rage. Since overwhelming is a 90-10 difference their way, a 50% power advantage is probably only like 40-60 or something so Van still had good odds of killing us. If we were 5 times stronger though we'd have an even more overwhelming advantage against Van than he did against us previously.

It's a -30% to effectiveness of pluses which means there's no effect on our wis and luck currently. Protection was useless because his offence was so powerful it went right through our defences and the lose of Cha can be substituted for with the extra Manipulation and INT.
 
Uttermost also works really well with the Sublime Gisena. Her boosted stats let her hit things more accurately with Tides or bolts, and then you can follow up with Thousand Cuts spam! The classic breach-then-finish strategy. High Willpower is good for resisting mental and social debuffs that Soul Evocation might cause while free Thousand Cuts makes your offensive powers absurd. And you get some important stats, most importantly doubling your INT +s! Being able to spam Thousand Cuts for free with no windup is just absurd. Since you have Fall of Night, you could even use them defensively like reactive armor!

A Kinslayer + Heal Letrizia's Mech strategy is also worth considering, as long as you can dodge Exhausted. Probably best to just take the liver hit and bank on healing it later, since you need the power now. Segues well into Blademight - Magic-Defeating Stance counters supernatural poisons and diseases, while Hero-Defeating Stance raises your Rank either further.
 
He can be our Tactician.

'How should I defeat this enemy, Vanreir?'
'Pierce him through with the pointy end of your Blade.'
'What about that one?'
'Pierce harder, genius.'
'Okay, but now I'm up against a social challenge. What do?'
'...we'll need a training sequence to pierce through this one.'
 
I will note that the mental contamination from Vanreir is gonna be pretty rough. There are benefits to being more linear but many of our greatest victories have come from cunning and thinking outside the box, through age and treachery. If we do decide to go with this, we'd have to truly commit, which I don't think we're capable of doing in the absence of a Defining Advancement changing our incentives. I'd be a lot more on board with taking it if we'd grabbed Cut Through but most of our methods are pragmatic, even if the decisions behind them are reckless.
 
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Rihaku said:
Uttermost also works really well with the Sublime Gisena. Her boosted stats let her hit things more accurately with Tides or bolts, and then you can follow up with Thousand Cuts spam! The classic breach-then-finish strategy. High Willpower is good for resisting mental and social debuffs that Soul Evocation might cause while free Thousand Cuts makes your offensive powers absurd. And you get some important stats, most importantly doubling your INT +s! Being able to spam Thousand Cuts for free with no windup is just absurd. Since you have Fall of Night, you could even use them defensively like reactive armor!
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I was already voting for it Rihaku, you didn't need to tell me it had synergy with Gisena as well!

The mental image of just shooting bladewind's everywhere to act as armour is also pretty amusing.
 
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Dark Abstraction said:
Yes, at the cost of unacceptable maluses in other aspects, which will impinge our ability to do the things to gain it. Stranglethorn offers 20% and hurts us less, if the modofier's what you want you should vote for that.

Neither, however, gives Rank directly, unlike Kinslayer.
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We gain rank from killing things impressively and Uttermost makes us the most impressive thing killer, so I don't see how it's bad for rank gain.
 
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