This is so clearly missing the point that you must have misunderstood what I was saying. Versh being unable to enter the Temple is irrelevant. Hunger not leaving the temple is irrelevant.

Verch and Letrizia are going to deal with attacks by Astral monsters. That didn't suddenly stop being the case just because they parked outside the Temple. It's a fundamental truth of Versh's existence; the Astral Realm forces will show up.

Our being able to kill some for a couple Picks is taking advantage of our capabilities to build synergy for greater effectiveness.
  1. Heal Versh cause we're weakened
  2. Stronger astrals show up to challenge him
  3. We kill them in conjunction
  4. We get stronger
  5. Apocryphal shows up again, sends some stronger stuff
  6. We still kill them in conjunction
  7. We successfully wait out Punctured Soul and can take on the Temple again, and we're even stronger than we would have been
We suffer a rank penalty for any actions we take that aren't directly related to freeing the ring don't we?. I think it was like -0.25 or something? So we'll be even worse off than we are now if we try to fight something outside the temple.

Instead of doing that we could just take Uttermost, be 5 times as strong as we were going into this fight and farm the middle level?
 
Punctured soul isn't actually that damaging to our combat abilities. If we take uttermost, a 10% penalty to rank and a 20% penalty to physical stats pale in comparison to a 500% increase in combat power.
Right now, maybe not?

At High Rank, it definitely CAN become a much more serious problem. Rank penalties become vastly more important at higher Rank, just as flat Rank bonuses do.
 
If considering Stranglethorn for stats, why not Inheritor: Vanreir? You can get to +30 AGI +30 CON with just Inheritor + Fierce Quickening in flesh form, and that's before factoring in his Soul Evocation! Think how much less sad Erii will be!
 
Uttermost is also quite synergetic with our current agi-heavy build. Now, imagine if our already insane attack speed combines with 7 times faster slashes, and every slash is a fell-handed stroke? And then enchance our agi even further beyond with fierece quickening...
 
Lingering Exhaustion is too greedy. We genuinely cannot afford to do almost nothing for the rest of the Apocryphal free period, and then be Tired after it. Being Tired in those conditions is just a spiral-starter, because being Tired with Apocryphal just means becoming Exhausted or eating another complication anyways. I know that it's attractive to think that we can basically walk off a devastating complication as fast as possible, with no lasting effects, but that's not the game we're playing with Apocryphal, and it's certainly not the game we're playing being near the Temple at all.

We have enough strong options that we can afford to not take the powers options with terrible long term downsides, like leaving a Curse permanently unmitigated. But there's no such variety here.

Both of the other options introduce elements of risk or debt, but they allow us to pick very, very safe avenues of increasing our power in the interim while we're still free of Apocryphal, as both can gain power by killing astral beasts outside.
 
If considering Stranglethorn for stats, why not Inheritor: Vanreir? You can get to +30 AGI +30 CON with just Inheritor + Fierce Quickening in flesh form, and that's before factoring in his Soul Evocation! Think how much less sad Erii will be!
How in the world would she be less sad on encountering someone who has basically locked away her brother's soul. Horrified and angry, more like..
 
Instead of doing that we could just take Uttermost, be 5 times as strong as we were going into this fight and farm the middle level?

If you're only getting a 5x boost from a 4 pick defining option you're doing something wrong. If you want power Kinslayer gives far, far more.

In terms of actual combat results, it would be something like:
Low Ranks (1 to 3) - A 1 point difference in Rank is noticeable, 2 points is overwhelming (90%+ favored if other stats equal)
Middle Ranks (3.1 to 8) - A 1 point difference in Rank is overwhelming, 2 points is nigh-unwinnable
High Ranks (8.1 to 10+) - A .5 point difference in Rank is overwhelming, 1 point is nigh-unwinnable
Both the Hero and the Tyrant were around the high end of Middle Rank by the end of his journey.

Overwhelming power, sounds a lot bigger than a measly 5x doesn't it? And no drawbacks, and we keep form of rage on top of it.

Edit: As Rihaku has said: Kinslayer -> Kill some 2-pick plebs -> get Preeminence: War -> Rank 6 Form of Rage
 
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Oh, so we're talking about stats are we now? Because Stranglethorn gives 15+18-4 for a total of 29. And not only that, but all 29 of those stats are in things that are actually relevant in combat, unlike the ++All stats which boosts a bunch of things that aren't SORD GUD so why even mention them?

+30% rank, but Stranglethorn gives +20% and let's us keep the .25 rank from Form of Rage. And as for form of rage being useless, it's about as useless as a car seatbelt, and I've been buckling up for my whole life now. It's useless, and will stay useless, right up until the moment it keeps this quest from coming to an abrupt end. It's literally an extra life, which we can spend either fighting or running away.

As for being able to spam thousand cuts, meh. By the time we've scaled up to 6 rank we'll probably be able to spam Thousand Cuts anyways. Stranglethorn doubles willpower, so if we find a willpower boost option it'll go a long way towards catching up, then surpassing, the one-time willpower boost here.
It's not just thousand cuts being spammable it's every attack becomes thousand cuts. There's no need for form of rage when this makes us stronger than we would be while raging. We already commited to our first form by taking quickening and we've never used Rage anyway.

Stranglethorn tanks one of our combat stats while Uttermost tanks 2 stats we've never even used, 1 social and protection becomes less relevant when you can just cut all the enemy attacks down before they reach you.
 
Also, just wanted to comment that I really do quite enjoy the direction the quest's taken. Even though the thread has slowly descended into madness and pique as we pushed Hunger into increasingly risky and dangerous fights (hilariously, all because of a single vote about Fishing :V), each update has had me at the edge of my seat in suspense over our possible death.

And man, just looking back at our progress in universe, it seems absurd. In a week or so, we have already power-leveled hard enough to nearly be as strong as Old Seram in AST/Zero (thanks to @Microwave MKII for that wonderful shorthand title) and we have gained some really cool powerups and effects. Reading about how Hunger processes the immense strength gained through the catalyst of Progression is very cool and the more visceral, descriptive nature of obtaining picks from foes that we have overcome makes it a more interesting portrayal of the nature of a Progression-type as compared to the more quantified lens Seram saw his power through, imo.

The speed of Hunger's growth kind of reminds of me how it felt to read about Seram's natural magical potential in Unnamed Quest, where in one day he attained the same power others had devoted their whole lives to reach. Though, it's not a perfect mirror of that feeling and has been accompanied by some seriously intense encounters to justify that growth.

I was kind of ambivalent on going to the Temple of the False Moon and wasn't sure if it would be worth it, but just the fight against Vanreir alone has made it worth the price of entrance. The risk of death is certainly an intimidating aspect of our recent votes but I feel it strengthens Hunger's drive, molds him into a more heroic figure that boldly challenges monsters, magi and masters of the sword and goes beyond his own limits to surpass them.

Even should all creation rise against you, rise higher that you may strike them down. That is the provenance of a Cursebearer, the legacy given by the Accursed and the words Hunger may yet live up to.
 
If you're only getting a 5x boost from a 4 pick defining option you're doing something wrong. If you want power Kinslayer gives far, far more.



Overwhelming power, sounds a lot bigger than a measly 5x doesn't it? And no drawbacks, and we keep form of rage on top of it.

Edit: As Rihaku has said: Kinslayer -> Kill some 2-pick plebs -> get Preeminence: War -> Rank 6 Form of Rage
Overwhelming just means we win a match up at least 90% of the time. Which might not even require 2x strength to achieve.

[X] Lingering Exhaustion
[X] Forebear's Blade - Uttermost


Switching to Lingering Exhaustion since Uttermost doesn't need the rank to be effective which makes it the best debuff pick since it lasts the least time.
 
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How in the world would she be less sad on encountering someone who has basically locked away her brother's soul. Horrified and angry, more like..

It all depends on your presentation! And it's certainly better than Vanreir simply being destroyed...

Also, just wanted to comment that I really do quite enjoy the direction the quest's taken. Even though the thread has slowly descended into madness and pique as we pushed Hunger into increasingly risky and dangerous fights (hilariously, all because of a single vote about Fishing :V), each update has had me at the edge of my seat in suspense over our possible death.

And man, just looking back at our progress in universe, it seems absurd. In a week or so, we have already power-leveled hard enough to nearly be as strong as Old Seram in AST/Zero (thanks to @Microwave MKII for that wonderful shorthand title) and we have gained some really cool powerups and effects. Reading about how Hunger processes the immense strength gained through the catalyst of Progression is very cool and the more visceral, descriptive nature of obtaining picks from foes that we have overcome makes it a more interesting portrayal of the nature of a Progression-type as compared to the more quantified lens Seram saw his power through, imo.

The speed of Hunger's growth kind of reminds of me how it felt to read about Seram's natural magical potential in Unnamed Quest, where in one day he attained the same power others had devoted their whole lives to reach. Though, it's not a perfect mirror of that feeling and has been accompanied by some seriously intense encounters to justify that growth.

I was kind of ambivalent on going to the Temple of the False Moon and wasn't sure if it would be worth it, but just the fight against Vanreir alone has made it worth the price of entrance. The risk of death is certainly an intimidating aspect of our recent votes but I feel it strengthens Hunger's drive, molds him into a more heroic figure that boldly challenges monsters, magi and masters of the sword and goes beyond his own limits to surpass them.

Even should all creation rise against you, rise higher that you may strike them down. That is the provenance of a Cursebearer, the legacy given by the Accursed and the words Hunger may yet live up to.

Seram in the place he belonged was quite something! Too bad he had to fight Romus so soon...

I was actually thinking of naming the original A Simple Transaction 0 and this one just "A Simple Transaction," since the I may be confusing. Prioritize the active quest and all...
 
Y'know, I was going to sleep but that update is still leaving me hype and I can't shake Giorno's theme off my head. So thanks for ruining my sleep schedule again @Rihaku!

If considering Stranglethorn for stats, why not Inheritor: Vanreir? You can get to +30 AGI +30 CON with just Inheritor + Fierce Quickening in flesh form, and that's before factoring in his Soul Evocation! Think how much less sad Erii will be!
But Age and Treachery, man. Age and Treachery. Also i don't think getting into the habit of trapping people's souls is super healthy...

But seriously, you all remember Amaranth Star? It's a pick that comes super handy in this situation. The super-stats from Stranglethorn plus still being able to use a quarter of our Rank makes this very good. Stats just makes Exhaustion much safer as we've been repeatedly told. So why not take the mountain of stats and sleep our condition off?
I was actually thinking of naming the original A Simple Transaction 0 and this one just "A Simple Transaction," since the I may be confusing. Prioritize the active quest and all...
Just give this a subtitle. There's no need to go renaming done things.
 
Overwhelming power, sounds a lot bigger than a measly 5x doesn't it?
Overwhelming just means we win a match up at least 90% of the time. Which might not even require 2x strength to achieve.
See, for example:
Note that a 90% chance of victory, given equal stats and a 1 stage difference, is overwhelming, not unwinnable. For example, what would you say the odds are of victory for:

A) A pure stats build with Thousand Cuts
B) The exact same build without Thousand Cuts

We would expect build A) to win via either alpha striking or being able to play a defensive attrition strategy over 90% of the time, so a 1 rank disparity would not, at this stage, be sufficient for B to defeat A. Now, if we were at high Ranks rather than Mid...
 
Stranglethorn is roughly equal as a viable option with Punctured Soul, since instead of balancing out the Rank differential directly it does so with the contribution of significant stats (without the mental pollution of some rando non-Forebear asshole).

Stranglethorn is also something that a large chunk of the thread seems to like, and having now seen some competitor Defining Advancements we can say it is actually one of the best ones we've come across. The 20% malus to AGI is MUCH more tolerable than the maluses on the bad choices of the weak Knight of Holly or the crippling Uttermost.


Above all, remember to vote synergistically; we just got our ass kicked and we'll be recuperating from that no matter what weakness we picked, so we do not have the option of going with non-synergistic options that introduce unnecessary risk, or we will run a substantial risk of the quest ending in protagonist-death.
 
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If you're only getting a 5x boost from a 4 pick defining option you're doing something wrong. If you want power Kinslayer gives far, far more.
In fact this is obviously untrue because Kinslayer comes with no drawbacks. Options which sacrifice something are inherently more powerful than options that don't i.e unshattered.

Stranglethorn is also something that a large chunk of the thread seems to like, and having now seen some competitor Defining Advancements we can say it is actually one of the better ones we've come across. The 20% malus to AGI is MUCH more tolerable than the maluses on the bad choices of the weak Knight of Holly or the crippling Uttermost.
What's crippling about Uttermost? It buffs all the stuff we actually use by a ridiculous margin and nerfs things we weren't using anyway. The only thing it effects that has actually previously been important is the reduction to protection.
 
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In fact this is obviously untrue because Kinslayer comes with no drawbacks. Options which sacrifice something are inherently more powerful than options that don't i.e unshattered.
This is both wrong and silly logic. Sacrifice does not make an option better, it just means there are balances in play.

The fight is the price we paid for our advancement. if we pick an advancement that involves sacrifice, that's not a "better" option, it's just an option we're also paying an added tax on.
 
Hm... comparing Inheritor: Vanreir vs Stranglethorn

Inheritor + Fierce Quickening: 30 AGI, 15 STR, 27 CON, Unerring
Stranglethorn: 14.5 AGI, 30 STR, 36 CON

Inheritor is actually stronger against the majority of opponents. You'd much rather have doubled action speed than doubled damage, to say nothing of the mobility / logistical advantages of AGI. Unerring is worth more considerably more than 9 CON since you start out with some of Vanreir's skill. You have enough AGI that Stranglethorn isn't unviable, but Inheritor's probably more powerful right now.

Inheritor's just really good, guys. The Rank growth penalty is easily canceled out by another Defining Advancement but you have sources of static +Rank anyway like Preeminence and Form of Rage.
 
What's crippling about Uttermost? It buffs all the stuff we actually use by a ridiculous margin and nerfs things we weren't using anyway. The only thing it effects that has actually previously been important is the reduction to protection.
Hunger uses Luck in everything he does. He uses Protection to not die, and it has been relevant to us in every fight we've ever been in. He use Wisdom to make decisions that are actually sound and take their ramifications further into account, and has seen significant use.
 
Hm... comparing Inheritor: Vanreir vs Stranglethorn

Inheritor + Fierce Quickening: 30 AGI, 15 STR, 27 CON, Unerring
Stranglethorn: 14.5 AGI, 30 STR, 36 CON

Inheritor is actually stronger against the majority of opponents. You'd much rather have doubled action speed than doubled damage, to say nothing of the mobility / logistical advantages of AGI. Unerring is worth more considerably more than 9 CON since you start out with some of Vanreir's skill. You have enough AGI that Stranglethorn isn't unviable, but Inheritor's probably more powerful right now.

Inheritor's just really good, guys. The Rank growth penalty is easily canceled out by another Defining Advancement but you have sources of static +Rank anyway like Preeminence and Form of Rage.
It's my second choice, since the opportunity to talk to a soul locked in our soul is pretty nice.
 
It's not just thousand cuts being spammable it's every attack becomes thousand cuts. There's no need for form of rage when this makes us stronger than we would be while raging. We already commited to our first form by taking quickening and we've never used Rage anyway.

Stranglethorn tanks one of our combat stats while Uttermost tanks 2 stats we've never even used, 1 social and protection becomes less relevant when you can just cut all the enemy attacks down before they reach you.

Yes yes, we get a thousand cuts a thousand times. My thinking is I'd rather just power up enough that our attacks actually kill our enemies instead of just acting like a magical unhealing papercut. Like if we're so powerful that we don't need to spam attacks like a video game character.

And speaking of stats, I don't get why you're still going on about stats when I've already shown that Strangethorn gives more of the relevant combat stats, both in the short term and the long term, than Uttermost. Recall that Might is Strength and Constitution, meaning that Stranglethorn is literally mightier than the Uttermost, and will always stay that way given the permanent 2x boost. The lost agility can be easily offset with the additional power gained from being Mightier than the Forebear and his Melkor-inspired "Arise in Might" knock-off power.

Overwhelming just means we win a match up at least 90% of the time. Which might not even require 2x strength to achieve.

The guy we just fought was an "overwhelmingly powerful enemy", we rolled a 15 on Breach the Middle, and we already clearly see that 2x wouldn't be nearly enough. He could kill form of rage, which gives .25 rank AND 3x to ALL stats (recall that stats work synergistically). Overwhelming doesn't mean 2x, it means overwhelming.
 
Uttermost means that we have a 10% chance of a Fell-Handed Stroke critical hit with every attack.


There has been a strange disregard for build votes that grab offensive tools. Uttermost puts Fell-Handed Stroke on every single attack we make. This is compounded by Thousand Cuts' speed & Fall of Night's manipulation features. In case you forgot:

Fell-Handed Stroke - A devastating blow of unutterable magnificence from which no recovery is possible. A powerful, but draining strike that inflicts cursed wounds from which spirit and will leak as freely as blood. Resists healing.

A Thousand Cuts - In the Forebear's grip could even a common knife blaze with fell power. All melee attacks made with the Forebear's Blade now apply cursed wounds. Septuples the power and speed of the Fell-Handed Stroke and allows it to be used with blade projections. Such horrific offensive power allows one to challenge foes vastly stronger.

Fall of Night
Blade projections of all kinds deal one-third more damage with a one-tenth chance to inflict critical damage, tripling the harm done and applying half again the power of ruin. Control and manipulation of blade winds becomes far less taxing. The surcharge in power for stronger blade-winds is substantially reduced.

Uttermost piles on:
Uttermost
Apply the effects of the Fell-Handed Stroke, including modifiers, to all basic attacks with no surcharge.

So this means that both melee and ranged combat impose bleeding wounds that resist healing. That's some pretty incredible synergy with Ring of Blood.

It means that we have a 10% chance of a Fell-Handed Stroke critical hit with every attack.

It means that we can cut ranged attacks out of the air, in much the same way that our opponent did in this update:
Wasting no further instants, he quickly leapt out from the hillside, launching a sevenfold blade projection directly at the swordsman as he charged. Eyes flickering briefly, the enemy intercepted his blade projection with one of his own, the thrust every bit the equal of the cut, spearing it in twain. Collapsed blade-force carved a meters-deep divot into the ground as the attack folded in on itself.

It means that where we landed several blows on the previous outriders before killing them, our basic attacks would have been immediate kills. It means that tactics involving sword-blast spam before fights will be even more powerful.

Sword Good.


Edit: Alas! quote-gore hid most of my post :'(
 
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This is both wrong and silly logic. Sacrifice does not make an option better, it just means there are balances in play.

The fight is the price we paid for our advancement. if we pick an advancement that involves sacrifice, that's not a "better" option, it's just an option we're also paying an added tax on.
Unshattered would have started us at rank 6 and been picked up from a trivial fight at the cost of not being able to heal our injuries.

I think if you actually look at the options most of the most powerful ones require a drawback of some kind.

Hunger uses Luck in everything he does. He uses Protection to not die, and it has been relevant to us in every fight we've ever been in. He use Wisdom to make decisions that are actually sound and take their ramifications further into account, and has seen significant use.
It specifies pluses so it won't decrease stats we haven't taken any of yet, it just makes taking them in the future less valuable.
 
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