Gown gives Gisena a defensive shroud deflects mundane force, only really letting magical attacks through.
Gisena's whole shtick is negating or turning mundane said magical attacks, which then plink off of the shroud as seen when the magical arrows stopped getting through.
The synergy between the two are hard to understate.
The Gown is like Vanguard for Gisena except it boosts us too! Which we really need at this stage.

I'd like Blood more if it wasn't so damn anti-synergetic with out additional forms. But it is, so we need to weigh carefully which is more likely to work out and pull risks back under constant lethal danger levels.
 
The Gown is like Vanguard for Gisena except it boosts us too! Which we really need at this stage.

I'd like Blood more if it wasn't so damn anti-synergetic with out additional forms. But it is, so we need to weigh carefully which is more likely to work out and pull risks back under constant lethal danger levels.
Yeah it's really telling that the voters most influential in getting Form of Rage passed are now voting to invalidate it's purchase with Blood.
 
Saint has equal Agi to quickening when in second form so we're far better equipped to run away at top speed upon encountering an enemy.
Saint actually has significantly better agi than Blood when in ghost form, since Blood provides no stat boosts (though we gets cuts) while saint provides all of them.

Yeah it's really telling that the voters most influential in getting Form of Rage passed are now voting to invalidate it's purchase with Blood.
I mean I don't blame them if they regret the purchase. As a group we... misunderstood what was on offer, it seems. At least a few of us, anyway.
 
Current vote count? It looks like this is shaping up to be a fairly even vote...

Hm, for Sorceresses below the Third Coalescence Grace usage is limited to a third of a day. Does the Gown's Pseudo-Grace have a similar time limit or can we grind continuously with it? Maybe somebody asked this earlier, still catching up with the thread.

You get the Psuedo-Grace as long as the Evening Sky is active, no need to worry about being timed out. If something oneshots the Evening Sky, however...

Great Power and potential aplenty while opening up avenue to upgrade Gisena with an power with +progression later, which will probably be stronger than Evening Gown. Truly the best of options.

Technically you're benefitting from the +Progression right now, you just happen to have an option (Second Stage) that doesn't work well with the option it offered!

It's unclear to me if the fastest path to Progression is delving into the Inner Layer.

You're going to be venturing into the Middle Temple with any of the builds, you're not ready for the Inner Temple even with the mightiest build on offer, even if you had permanent Form of Rage.
 
Let's not fall in sunk cost fallacy where Form of Rage is concerned. The simple fact is that we found something far better to establish our Build around because of +Progression. It has served its purpose.

As for the vulnerability of Blood slayer, for a while, we still have Form of Rage if necessary and exhaustion is not being taken with the build so it's not that dangerous. Lingering paralysis can also be dealt with by blood related shit in short order according to the fluff.

The simple truth is that blood related options are simply going to be more efficient and powerful than the alternatives so it is going to fucking great in the mid-long term.
 
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And I was even somewhat optimistic Balance's time had finally come...

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You're going to be venturing into the Middle Temple with any of the builds, you're not ready for the Inner Temple even with the mightiest build on offer, even if you had permanent Form of Rage.

I meant that it was probably true for the other builds to be venturing into the Inner Temple sooner since they could acquire immediate strength faster!
 
Current vote count? It looks like this is shaping up to be a fairly even vote...



You get the Psuedo-Grace as long as the Evening Sky is active, no need to worry about being timed out. If something oneshots the Evening Sky, however...



Technically you're benefitting from the +Progression right now, you just happen to have an option (Second Stage) that doesn't work well with the option it offered!



You're going to be venturing into the Middle Temple with any of the builds, you're not ready for the Inner Temple even with the mightiest build on offer, even if you had permanent Form of Rage.
In short, we can't handle your strongest potions.

Whelp, I'm scared shitless of venturing into the inner temple. The good thing is that if we win this temple, Ber is probably going to be a fly in the wall.
 
Honestly, I didn't realize shift+enter would post on SV.
But anyway, as I've noted before, I would really like Hunger to stop casually killing himself. Also for him to not die, so Heedless War is quite out of the question. I could probably barely countenance Barest Cut v2, but I'd prefer Bloodslayer or Star-Blade Saint, and while it would also be amusing to give Gisena a dress right after she asked for one, Bloodslayer fits my aesthetic preference better. It's no Blademight, but I suppose it'll do.
Anyway, blood power option, and study more blood power options. Seems relatively no-brainer to me. I wouldn't mind social too badly on this one, though. Build vote > pastimes.
With Exhaustion builds, Healing Versch may be under consideration as the greed means we're less likely to speedrun the temple.
 
I doubt Ber was this strong when we fought him first, so what kind of crazy grinding did he subject himself to?! Fucking bots.

Yeah, he was definitely taking some damage then. He probably thought it was the tutorial mission, so didn't bother killing some wolves first. I'm honestly really curious about how he got that System though, I thought it was the Astral Lord at first, but then realized it seemed more like just someone he was doing a job for. Whatever could grant him it is a pretty high level entity, wonder it they'll be pissed about us killing him.
 
Just looking at how fucking dangerous the Inner Temple apparently is, we're going to need to take advantage of our +Progression if we want any hope of scaling hard enough to beat this place before the Apocryphal comes back. Moreover, the healing would also be really nice to resolve whatever Conditions we picked up. That would massively reduce the time we spend recovering and not strengthening ourselves.

Yes, I voted for Form of Rage. Yes, it's currently less than ideal with Quickening. But just as we don't have time to maximise our long term potential, we don't have time to regret past choices. All we can do is move forward with what we have and what we have is a +Progression with options described as extremely powerful. To not take advantage of that at this juncture would be a terrible waste, especially when it would also work to empower our companions for the long term.

The Gown is great for Gisena but it does nothing to help Letrizia or Verschlengorge, which is an issue when they'll likely be targeted by Ber. Helping them be something other than a big target would do a lot for our chances of both defeating him and fulfilling our current duty of getting her back to civilization. And of course in the short term, if the forces of the Temple pursue us or we end up discovered by the Encampment, an enhanced Verschlengorge might be the difference between a proud family moment and a broken home.
 
I know our chances of relevance in the long term were comparatively terrible, but man, it sure would be nice to have the immediate power of a Combat-class Cursebearer and with it the ability to just dunk all over these people. Clarifications to the effect of us being totally outclassed in the Inner Temple even in permanent Rage (is this a possible upgrade? With enough Arete and bad decisions, can we become an Angry Marine?) and being 'favored' to win against Bearic if we clear the place are just... wow. Fucking favored.

That it's possible to survive through intelligent play without activity-generated Arete is honestly surprising. Possibly 'intelligent play' means we should have taken What Rains May Come and risked tracking the sociopathic shit down rather than undertaking all of these risks.
 
Star-Blade Saint out to an early lead in votes, though I haven't calced argument and omake power in a while... Still, the margins are quite close. Sadly, it looks like this is not Balance's day, despite a clean and efficient build. Is the path of Balance eternally Forsaken, just like our hero's Mask of serenity?

However, now that you guys are finally getting Thousand Cuts, maybe you will have an opportunity to restrain your Arete purchases and slowly build up for Ruling Ring (or Once and Future) in a more sustainable manner! Thousand Cuts works best when you're faster than your opponent (faster windup -> you can perform the Fell-Handed Stroke in a smaller opening, faster attack speed -> more cursed wounds), and all the Thousand Cuts builds get lots of +AGI, so this will be a multiplicative increase to your combat power on top of your potentially already-multiplicative gains.

Looking at the most extreme example, Bloodslayer, which has roughly 243% the effective Strength and 210% the effective Agility and Constitution* of your previous baseline, you would be striking at 17 times your prior power over baseline (at range!) with a Fell-Handed Stroke. With Gisena anticipating many enemy attacks, you could the start the windup to coincide with their appearance, allowing you to get a free alpha strike off!

The point is that you are getting something valuable for all your risk taken, Experience and Arete spent here. A 200% multiplier on physical stats is not just a simple doubling of power. For example, consider two builds with the exact same stats except that one has 200% the Agility of the other. The build with such an Agility lead would probably win at least 3 times to 1 against their otherwise doppelganger. While Strength and Constitution are not as influential, they still play a multiplicative role. So, while you may not be a full 2.4*2.1*2.1 = 10.5 times more powerful, you're probably at least 5-7 times more physically powerful from this single advancement point compared to your previous fleshly form baseline. And that's before accounting for A Thousand Cuts! Stats really are great!

*This is calculated by the actual underlying number, not the +s that you normally see

The other Thousand Cuts builds do not benefit from +Progression and so are not quite as ridiculous, but a similar principle applies. Moral of the story: take Echo of the Forebear.
 
I doubt Ber was this strong when we fought him first, so what kind of crazy grinding did he subject himself to?! Fucking bots.

Well, how much more powerful is an MMO character after one (week/month) of intense leveling compared to previously? All their stats have probably gone up by at least 1000%, if not 5000%, the effects of which are at least somewhat multiplicative... then you have gear and magic system synergies, plus any exploits and peripheral systems like crafting.

I know our chances of relevance in the long term were comparatively terrible, but man, it sure would be nice to have the immediate power of a Combat-class Cursebearer and with it the ability to just dunk all over these people. Clarifications to the effect of us being totally outclassed in the Inner Temple even in permanent Rage (is this a possible upgrade? With enough Arete and bad decisions, can we become an Angry Marine?) and being 'favored' to win against Bearic if we clear the place are just... wow. Fucking favored.

To clarify, if Hunger spent an entire month at the same intensity of advancement as the Temple, while Ber did the training he's doing for that month, he would stomp Ber. Your Progression curve does not work in the same way that his does. For one, you effectively don't top out.
 
being 'favored' to win against Bearic if we clear the place are just... man. Fucking favored.

If he can respawn from most deaths, has unlimited TP, and a sophisticated enough targeting system to seek out and lock on to suitable encounters, then I see how he can do it. It's a pretty ludicrous combination.

That it's possible to survive through intelligent play without activity-generated Arete is honestly surprising. Possibly 'intelligent play' means we should have taken What Rains May Come and risked tracking the sociopathic shit down rather than undertaking all of these risks.

Maybe it just meant taking Unshattered. I didn't like it when it was offered but it's certainly grown on me with the power of hindsight.


Pretty damn impressive. I don't mind our second form getting reduced to vestigal status much anyway, it was only 2 Arete, and will still have use in some specific situations (Non overflow insta kill attacks with long cooldowns, finishing off exhausted would be victors in what they thought was their moment of triumph.). Form of Rage is still relevant in any case so it's not like that investment is being obsoleted.

[X] Speak to Letrizia
[X] Bloodslayer
 
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Let's not fall in sunk cost fallacy where Form of Rage is concerned. The simple fact is that we found something far better to establish our Build around because of +Progression. It has served its purpose.

As for the vulnerability of Blood slayer, for a while, we still have Form of Rage if necessary and exhaustion is not being taken with the build so it's not that dangerous. Lingering paralysis can also be dealt with by blood related shit in short order according to the fluff.

The simple truth is that blood related options are simply going to be more efficient and powerful than the alternatives so it is going to fucking great in the mid-long term.
And to be fair, Form of Rage isn't bad even if we lose our blood upgrades. The multiplicative power boosts to that form will probably at least keep it competitive with our base form, I would think...
 
And to be fair, Form of Rage isn't bad even if we lose our blood upgrades. The multiplicative power boosts to that form will probably at least keep it competitive with our base form, I would think...
Personally I'm willing to go with Blood since it's probable that future upgrades will extend it to our forms.
 
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Man, I wake up and my S A V Ecoin is going UP. Turns out we've got both consolidation and "what we do when we retreat" vote? That's pretty damn nice.

[X] Heedless War
[X] Speak to Letrizia

I am pretty happy with this vote overall, what with S A V E, buff Gisena and Blood Progression all being stuff I am interested in. Especially since Balance is exactly where it belongs to.

In a fucking dumpster.
You're going to be venturing into the Middle Temple with any of the builds, you're not ready for the Inner Temple even with the mightiest build on offer, even if you had permanent Form of Rage.
This sounds like a case for Progression++ boys!
 
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