I refuse to care any more. I'm going to attempt to get Hunger killed with every vote because it seems like it will be significantly more entertaining than trying to prevent people from being so greedy they walk into a dragon's open maw.
this is... likely a suboptimal plan of action because as it stands if you get outvoted then you can cite your objectively superior votes in the tragedy of Lord Hunger, the Greedy, in every subsequent quest. (This works even in non-rihaku quests.) But if your spite-vote makes the ring option win and we die, then acrimony & recriminations abound.

vote to maximize your expected smugness in the worst case situation!
 
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Man, it's hard to argue for an option called "Heedless War." Rihaku do be throwing shade. :lol:

Anyway, my argument from before is mostly unchanged. Heedless War is in fact greedy, but we can offset the greediness by picking the lowest risk option (the modern equivalents to Hunter Trio and Knight Legion) for an update or two, getting back up to par and taking on a mid-tier enemy that drops Passion for the EFB.

Also, +All stats in matters of War is not to be underestimated! That includes Int, Wis, Luck, Protection... It's less able to deal with high-level enemies then Thousand Cuts, it's true. But if we play it safe for a bit that won't be an issue. Also, +Luck can help ensure that we don't get a bad random encounter on the way home for the day.

The big risk is the "contest of primacy." We have no idea what that involves. However, Study the Blood involves communing with the Ring, which could allow us to learn what the contest involves. If it's too dangerous we can just hold off on that last Preeminence until we're better equipped for it.

Finally, just think of what 10X Progression could do for us! We could take the lowest-risk enemies and have them pay off more then the highest-risk ones would have done without Ruling Ring.
 
I see that Study the Blood is quite popular right now. If you're taking Star-Blade Saint, Balance, or especially Bloodslayer, you probably don't need to gamble for slightly increased blood affinity right now and can safely take a +Relationship option! They can have important mechanical and strategic benefits in the long run.

Now there is something else to consider: whether Star-Blade Saint or Bloodslayer is the better build for risk-averse voters to consolidate around. With the former offering more development of Gisena and the latter a sharper growth curve, one could perhaps compromise by taking Bloodslayer and Speak to Gisena. Or, if the Gisena faction is powerful enough, to override matters by taking both Star-Blade Saint and Speak to Gisena!

Similarly, greedy players should consider which of Balance or Heedless War they'd be willing to consolidate around in the event that it becomes necessary to stay competitive with the union of the former two options...
 
[ ] Heedless War - Lingering Paralysis, Double Echo of the Forebear, Preeminence: War

That's a lot of ifs:
  • If we survive getting back to the camp. We most likely will. While weaker compared to other options, the higher Rank should help us avoid deadly encounters.
  • If we find an enemy dropping necessary pick - or rather how long it will take us. Assuming presented timeframe of one week, we have several major problems:
    • That's gonna tank our rate of progression short-term. We'll be spending a whole week hunting a specific upgrade, likely dodging dangerous enemies (because we lack immediate power), which translates to less power for us.
    • On the other hand, a week of searching equals a lot of potentially dangerous random encounters. Even besides the chance of death, going FOR to survive will throw us further back behind the schedule.
    • We don't have a lot of time in the first place. This plan might result in some combination of active Apocryphal, contest of primacy, and a potential-heavy build that hasn't had the time to snowball.
  • If we don't need to re-enter Middle Temple for it - well, hopefully, we won't. FOR inside Middle Temple with no safety blanket of raw stats is an unappealing prospect.
  • If we survive contest of primacy - which we know nothing about, making it a pure gamble.
Then we're set. Yeah...

If we do pick Heedless War, I hope the RNG will at least throw some life-or-death fights at us, to better prepare for the final mystery box. Still, I remain of the opinion that we should start taking Ring options only after shoring up our current weaknesses.

[X] Star-Blade Saint - Exhaustion, Echo of the Forebear, Evening Gown (+AGI, +CHA), A Thousand Cuts
[X] Speak to Gisena

Edit: quick swap to Gisena for now
 
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No. Rihaku never actually answers any questions I ask. I think I'm too annoying.

You know what. Fuck it. The sooner hunger dies the sooner I can stop being an obsessive idiot.

[X] Heedless War

To suicide!
he only has time to answer so many questions and direct ones like death chance aren't something he ever answers anyway
 
Note that a 90% chance of victory, given equal stats and a 1 stage difference, is overwhelming, not unwinnable. For example, what would you say the odds are of victory for:

A) A pure stats build with Thousand Cuts
B) The exact same build without Thousand Cuts

We would expect build A) to win via either alpha striking or being able to play a defensive attrition strategy over 90% of the time, so a 1 rank disparity would not, at this stage, be sufficient for B to defeat A. Now, if we were at high Ranks rather than Mid...
Hmm.. so the Pre-Eminence options are even stronger at higher ranks.
[ ] Something Else - Something riskier, perhaps?
Riskiest option I could think of:

[ ] Something Else: Mercenary (+2 Arete) - Instead of returning to the camp side, convince the Archer to provide a friendly introduction to his civilization, as a potential mercenary for hire. They must realize that attempts to free to ring will only continue to escalate, until their civilization is crushed asunder. True, they have mages greater than the Archer, and perhaps even more - But is it not merely a matter of time and odds? Hunger can solve their problems. And he requires payment in knowledge, not coin.

* Incredibly risky, but potentially extremely rewarding.
* May gain access to Soul Evocations down the line.
* High chance of being asked to eradicate the adventuring parties who keep venturing inside.
* I repeat, incredibly risky.
* INCREDIBLY RISKY
 
I'm not especially hopeful on that front, since they seem to make a point of not having blood. But... we saw in this update that our corpse did stick around.

Form of wraith is the spirit of Hunger, and form of rage is essence of Hunger

Right now, the spirit and essence of Hunger are bloodless. For anyone else the story would end there, but we are more than just a body, we are the Ring, and the Ring is us, and there is no difference between the two. Our spirit is the spirit of the Ring, our essence is the essence of the Ring. And how can any part of the ring of blood, whether its body or spirit or the essence, be without blood? Blood is its nature, sufficing every part of it. That our wraith and rage lack blood is merely because we have yet to fully understand our new nature as a Ring.

Or at least that's the argument I'd use. We'll see how ring meditation goes.
 
Form of wraith is the spirit of Hunger, and form of rage is essence of Hunger

Right now, the spirit and essence of Hunger are bloodless. For anyone else the story would end there, but we are more than just a body, we are the Ring, and the Ring is us, and there is no difference between the two. Our spirit is the spirit of the Ring, our essence is the essence of the Ring. And how can any part of the ring of blood, whether its body or spirit or the essence, be without blood? Blood is its nature, sufficing every part of it. That our wraith and rage lack blood is merely because we have yet to fully understand our new nature as a Ring.

Or at least that's the argument I'd use. We'll see how ring meditation goes.
We could animate our corpse with our wraithly form?

Or perhaps, argue that the spirit that remains is also a form of blood - After all, the spirit remembers the body, which is why it has the same form to begin with. Why would the same not apply to the blood?
 
Current vote count?

If we do pick Heedless War, I hope the RNG will at least throw some life-or-death fights at us, to better prepare for the final mystery box. Still, I remain of the opinion that we should start taking Ring options only after shoring up our current weaknesses.

[X] Star-Blade Saint - Exhaustion, Echo of the Forebear, Evening Gown (+AGI, +CHA), A Thousand Cuts
[X] Speak to Gisena

Edit: quick swap to Gisena for now

If you intend only to shore up your current weakness and aren't looking for great synergy with Gisena, perhaps you'd be interested in Balance! You'd save considerable Arete and still get access to +Stats and Thousand Cuts.


The ring-lust has overcome him!

Hmm.. so the Pre-Eminence options are even stronger at higher ranks.

Remember that, unlike Once and Future, the Ring +Rank buffs are appropriately reduced upon reaching a new Rank category!
 
Staff Notice - Deliberately setting out to bring about negative results in the quest is not desirable
this is... likely a suboptimal plan of action because as it stands if you get outvoted then you can cite your objectively superior votes in the tragedy of Lord Hunger, the Greedy, in every subsequent quest. (This works even in non-rihaku quests.) But if your spite-vote makes the ring option win and we die, then acrimony & recriminations abound.

vote to maximize your expected smugness in the worst case situation!
Meh, as I'm publicly voting to maximize our death chance I'll still have that going for me, since I'll have picked out exactly what was going to kill us.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Byzantine on Jun 14, 2020 at 12:21 AM, finished with 71 posts and 28 votes.
 
We could animate our corpse with our wraithly form?

Or perhaps, argue that the spirit that remains is also a form of blood - After all, the spirit remembers the body, which is why it has the same form to begin with. Why would the same not apply to the blood?

My argument is
1: The Ring of Blood always counts as being conceptually blood, regardless of its physical form. After all, it's not "The ring that controls blood", it's the "Ring of Blood". Conceptually, it is blood.
2: We are the Ring, and the Ring is us. See previous updates.
3: Therefore, just like the ring we always count as being conceptually blood, regardless of our form.

I am hopeful that meditating on the ring will either prove or disprove this theory.
 
Hm... the grinding necessity of survival has forced many into a siege mindset, so the lead of even as capricious and marginal an option as Study the Blood is not entirely surpriseing, but as this update also contains the very vote you need to improve your chances of survival, why waste it on Studying the Blood when you could get character development for Hunger or one of his companions? Relationship +s aren't handed out as easily as Advancements!
 
My argument is
1: The Ring of Blood always counts as being conceptually blood, regardless of its physical form. After all, it's not "The ring that controls blood", it's the "Ring of Blood". Conceptually, it is blood.
2: We are the Ring, and the Ring is us. See previous updates.
3: Therefore, just like the ring we always count as being conceptually blood, regardless of our form.

I am hopeful that meditating on the ring will either prove or disprove this theory.
this is something we would have to buy with Arete or Picks
 
If you intend only to shore up your current weakness and aren't looking for great synergy with Gisena, perhaps you'd be interested in Balance! You'd save considerable Arete and still get access to +Stats and Thousand Cuts.

Hmm, possibly. I am open to any non-Heedless option, but Balance is admittedly not my first or even second choice. Mostly because I like the unique picks (Quickening/Evening Gown) from the other two and feel it would be a shame to miss both of them.
 
Now there is something else to consider: whether Star-Blade Saint or Bloodslayer is the better build for risk-averse voters to consolidate around. With the former offering more development of Gisena and the latter a sharper growth curve, one could perhaps compromise by taking Bloodslayer and Speak to Gisena. Or, if the Gisena faction is powerful enough, to override matters by taking both Star-Blade Saint and Speak to Gisena!
I think a lot of the appeal of Star-Blade Saint is that it strengthens Gisena; just upping the relationship another tier doesn't do that. So "Bloodslayer, Speak to Gisena" is not a viable compromise for people who want the Star-Blade Saint option.
 
[ ] Star-Blade Saint

My main issue with this build is that it just doesn't have any strong avenues for advancement. It's the power vote equivalent of a full stop, there are no further things to seek from here. This is an issue because, as we've quite clearly seen, we need to get enormously stronger if we ever want to resolve this Temple in a reasonable amount of time and defeat Bearic. We've only got a little more than a week and its clear our current path just won't cut it. Gisena's existing Nullity powers have proven sufficient, I'm skeptical more anti-magic will really change anything here.

That it's somewhat more immediately safe in the extremely short term does not make it the ideal build to tackle the Temple. Bloodslayer has a fair bit of power right now with Cuts, a huge amount of power as soon as we get our body back and then a +Progression to acquiring power within our existing theme. When looking at overall risk, this is naturally better.

And of course losing our Rank will make non-combat encounters we might run into significantly harder. What if the next update in an attempt at negotiation from people who've tracked us down?


I get it. I do. Despite talking a big game about risk management just before the last update, I threw it all away when I realised how damn close we were to the EFB. I covet the power of the Ruling Ring just as much as you. But it's really not safe and safety should be our primary concern right now.

Moreover, the Gown Gang is strong and should Bloodslayer fall behind, it's likely the Not Dying vote will coalesce around Star-Blade Saint. You saw the vote counts last update, that's not a fight we can win. Better to preemptively compromise and get at least some of what we want with Bloodslayer.

Moreover, do we actually want to initiate the contest of primacy now? We don't even know what it entails, to draw so much metaphysical attention as a young Progressor could just be taking our out of the frying pan and into the fire. Wouldn't it be better to build up more basic capabilities first and work on more thoroughly attuning ourself to our Ring before we get into a fight with others who are likely much more experienced than we are?

You put 6k words to Form of Rage, at least vote for Saint or Balance or something. Don't give up hope.

(as your nemesis, it follows that bloodslayer is my least favored option)

I'm not even giving up hope, I'm actually fairly enthused about this. It works completely for me with Form of Rage. First Form is Vampire classic, human face, inhuman quickness. Second Form is our equivalent of a mist or a wraith body, weaker in almost all respects but with a few utility benefits while the third is our obviously monsterous nightmare mode, less agile but otherwise more powerful in almost every way.

Some upgrades to the other Forms, maybe an Advancement that makes switching easier and the a e s t h e t i c is very good.

If it does start to lose though, I'll probably switch back to Heedless War.

I'm in the same boat! Now i really hope that we can give blood to our form of rage, which would personally make the aesthetic even better. I would argue that an form of pure rage that spills constant blood makes thematic sense! Perhaps transform his own rage into blood to fuel his fury?

*chef kiss*

Exactly, right!? They might not even be totally out of reach since this build is going to shred its way through the Temple and finally put us on a proper power curve, letting us actually take advantage of our existing resources and +Progression rather than just hoping for survival and potential. Plus, we can empower our entire party with further Blood Advancements, maybe fix ourselves up some.

As for Gisena Gang, we can likely make her much stronger with further Blood Advancements and just imagine the teasing we'll get when she watches a vampire movie! They're the most fuckable monsters for a reason.
 
[X] Study the Blood
[X] Bloodslayer


The fact is that this provides a hell of a lot of immediate power and quite a few low hanging fruit to grasp with the "extreme power" of Blood Advancements. That this still focuses on the Ring and doesn't introduce some other extraneous dongles to our build like pseudo-Graces tips it over the edge for me.

I'm going to just mentally repress the memory of our other Forms so the aesthetic contradiction doesn't break my brain. Our flesh body is our only body. Any update that might indicate otherwise is non-cannon.
This is a pretty ridiculous vote for one of the chief architects involved in the form of rage vote winning.
 
Meh, as I'm publicly voting to maximize our death chance I'll still have that going for me, since I'll have picked out exactly what was going to kill us.
If you actively want the quest to end, please just stop participating, don't actively sabotage it for the people who want to keep playing.

My main issue with this build is that it just doesn't have any strong avenues for advancement. It's the power vote equivalent of a full stop, there are no further things to seek from here.
Firstly, we don't really know that; there may be other things it chains into. A lot of our advancement options were only revealed after prerequisites were met. Secondly...

This is an issue because, as we've quite clearly seen, we need to get enormously stronger if we ever want to resolve this Temple in a reasonable amount of time and defeat Bearic. We've only got a little more than a week and its clear our current path just won't cut it. Gisena's existing Nullity powers have proven sufficient, I'm skeptical more anti-magic will really change anything here.
The problem is that Gisena's powers won't work as well as the magic they're pitted against gets stronger. She needs to scale too, or we start losing one of our big advantages.

Furthermore, voting for huge increases in power specifically to upgrade ourselves so we can get back into the fight quickly sounds to me like exactly what we need to do to resolve this and strengthen ourselves.
 
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