A Simple Transaction I

Simon_Jester · Jun 12, 2020

Rihaku said:
Hunger does try to spare life when he can, he's just not often given the opportunity when it would be practical. But this guy swore on his soul to not oppose him, and given that he uses soul evocations Hunger figured it would be okay.

Mm... traditionally an oath requires three elements: a promise, an entity to swear by, and optionally a relic to swear on.

The entity's job is to enforce the oath; the relic is just there to strengthen the connection.

So, tricky thing, your oaths; the archer's promise... uh-oh.

vali said:
This is the second time we've encountered an enemy that can be in multiple locations at once. Both the Dreadbeast and the archer.

We should assume to see more of this ability going forwards. It may be a moon-ring granted ability.

True true. On the other hand, to paraphrase Roger Zelazny in the Merlin novels:

"It does you little good to be able to go anywhere you want, if I can kick your ass in all places."

Rihaku said:
His arrows that struck the Evening Sky bounced off, it was the ones that hit areas cloaks don't cover that landed!

Hm. Problematic. We need a way to get it to shield us more thoroughly. Too many important bits not covered by cloaks. Such as lungs. And hands. We need those, we're already running short.

Thomasfoolery · Jun 12, 2020

Rihaku said:
She's undergo Sorcerous Evolution, using another system of advancement!

Misread that. Interesting.

Byzantine said:
snip

Conflicts with serious stakes aren't exactly short on the ground for us right now though. It's one of the riskiest exhaustion builds though. But almost any build that gets attacked when exhausted is pretty screwed so, the difference is somewhat marginal

Byzantine · Jun 12, 2020

Rihaku said:
Pure defense is actually somewhat questionable against scaling enemies like this one. No matter how strong your defense, if they crap out clones constantly then you will eventually be overwhelmed. But even more important than that, is not to fight yesterday's war! You should be prepared to deal with a broad field of potential enemies.

This argument is meaningless. Everything is questionable about scaling enemies like the ones we face because we can always encounter something that is a direct counter to our build. A swarm against the Power build, hit and run against the defense build, And anything sufficiently Tough against the generalist ring build.

Shard · Jun 12, 2020

Byzantine said:
We have to either go all in on defense or offense this update or we will be dead within 5 middle level floors.

War is only useful in combat, though... Or at least only in a competitive challenge of some kind.

War is very broad, and applies to combat in addition to other stuff. The most important part of a Ring build is that it's broadly applicable to whatever voters choose, so it would be very hard to select a non-synergistic option in the future. A pure defence build doesn't work well against something like the Knight/Dreadbeast, for example, even if it works well against mages. Thousand Cuts works well against Dreadbeasts and Knight-Lords, but falters against mages with their magical defence/dodging BS.

BrainInAJar said:
We don't need a generalist build; we want some sort of overwhelming advantage. Either offensively or defensively. I think offensively would be better considering it's a bigger deficiency right now and it would have been hugely helpful in most fights so far.

Plus, we finally get our arm back! Isn't that nice? Something to work towards?

A specialist build might work OOC when we choose the encounters, but it flops IC, when the encounters are weighted randomly (we sort of choose only).

Byzantine · Jun 12, 2020

LordOfMurder said:
[X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 5 Arete (0 picks).
[X] Evening Sky - Opalescence
[X] Evening Sky - Iridescence - 2 Arete
[X] Evening Sky - Evening Gown - 7 Arete (2 picks)

If we replace Evening Gown with Pearlescence we can get it now and don't need to manifest 2 arete from the void. And Pearlescence will make future Evening Sky picks cheaper.

Shard · Jun 13, 2020

Byzantine said:
This argument is meaningless. Everything is questionable about scaling enemies like the ones we face because we can always encounter something that is a direct counter to our build. A swarm against the Power build, hit and run against the defense build, And anything sufficiently Tough against the generalist ring build.

It's an argument by the QM, by definition it's not meaningless.

LordOfMurder · Jun 13, 2020

Byzantine said:
If we replace Evening Gown with Pearlescence we can get it now and don't need to manifest 2 arete from the void.

Evening Gown is considerably better than Pearlescence though. I'd prefer just a copy of Echo instead of Iridescence if we can't get the arete.

Lealope · Jun 13, 2020

Byzantine said:
War is only useful in combat, though... Or at least only in a competitive challenge of some kind.

It's useful in all forms of direct contest. No matter the enemy and no matter the type of combat, it makes us better. If people end up taking a super dangerous option like Knight because they think we could use diplomacy against the enemy, this would do more for that than any other build. Moreover, if we actually continue the diplomacy against these guys (which we can now that we've shown that we're willing to negotiate), this build would be the best for that by far, without giving up on pure combat powers entirely.

Now that we've seen these guys have a civilization, we should keep in mind that there's many types of challenges we could face, instead of completely focusing on combat.

Byzantine · Jun 13, 2020

Shard said:
It's an argument by the QM, by definition it's not meaningless.

No? That argument by anyone is meaningless, because it's pointing out a flaw that literally every build will have by necessity of our underleveled position. The only difference is which exact foe can exploit the hole.

Kurowari · Jun 13, 2020

[X] The Ring of Power - Dominion
[X] The Ring of Power - Preeminence

I think rushing for the Ruling Ring is important; let's not waste more Arete than we have. It could take forever to get back to this point. We need an EFB as soon as we can get it.

In any case, I'm not strictly opposed to the Blade build but it just isn't efficient at this juncture.

Redshirt Army · Jun 13, 2020

Rihaku said:
It is generalist, but if you are going for raw power now it's a bit weak compared to powerhouse options like Quickening or Hero-Defeating Stance.

The total power is a little lower than those options, yeah, but unlike those options 9 of the Arete here is going towards an EFB. Rest up, maybe poke the camp now that we're in a stonger position and hire some buddies (the +Charisma will help here too!), and go for round two.

Byzantine · Jun 13, 2020

Oh screw it. I decided last vote we should die. Why am I trying to save us?

OctarineShrike · Jun 13, 2020

The default Pseudograce on Evening Gown has good synergy with Thousand Cuts

[x]Exhausted
[x] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Evening Sky - Evening Gown - 7 Arete (2 picks)
[X] Evening Sky - Opalescence

Prospalz · Jun 13, 2020

Byzantine said:
We have to either go all in on defense or offense this update or we will be dead within 5 middle level updates.

Five middle level updates is a pretty godly amount of time, tho. We no shit could actually get Ruling Ring in... Three? Two? Updates with good spending.

War is only useful in combat, though... Or at least only in a competitive challenge of some kind.

Combat is 99% of what we have been doing. More, likely will continue doing.

Redshirt Army said:
The total power is a little lower than those options, yeah, but unlike those options 9 of the Arete here is going towards an EFB. Rest up, maybe poke the camp now that we're in a stonger position and hire some buddies (the +Charisma will help here too!), and go for round two.

TBF, Evening Gown goes toward an EFB too, if not as effectively as pretty much buying bits of one piece by piece.

ImperatorV · Jun 13, 2020

[x]Exhausted
[x] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Evening Sky - Evening Gown - 7 Arete (2 picks)
[X] Evening Sky - Opalescence

So here's the Evening Gown + A Thousand Cuts build I've been arguing for. I need to go to bed soon so I'll be leaving things here.

Byzantine · Jun 13, 2020

Prospalz said:
Five middle level updates is a pretty godly amount of time, tho. We no shit could actually get Ruling Ring in... Three? Two? Updates with good spending.

And it won't matter because we are so much weaker we will die before we ever get a chance to use it. You are deeply underestimating just how underleveled we are.

BrainInAJar · Jun 13, 2020

Really, getting Thousand Cuts by now is kind of overdue. Fell-handed Stroke just isn't cutting it anymore. We kind of need it for any respectable offense at all.

The Ring build is my second choice and I'm kind of eh on the Mantle builds. We haven't been winning by the skin of our teeth because we lacked defense; it's better to take proactive options rather than reactive ones.

Shard said:
A specialist build might work OOC when we choose the encounters, but it flops IC, when the encounters are weighted randomly (we sort of choose only).

Good thing we can in fact choose our encounters! Most of the time. That's plenty, especially if the rest of them are indeed random and thus won't be biased towards a certain build.

Shard · Jun 13, 2020

Byzantine said:
No? That argument by anyone is meaningless, because it's pointing out a flaw that literally every build will have by necessity of our underleveled position. The only difference is which exact foe can exploit the hole.

It's pointing out that a specialist build is weak to being hit by a 'counter-build' where a generalist would not. Specialization inherently has flaws which can be exploited.

Redshirt Army · Jun 13, 2020

Byzantine said:
And it won't matter because we are so much weaker we will die before we ever get a chance to use it. You are deeply underestimating just how underleveled we are.

Just hire some buddies, fucking finally, and we'll be fine. We have a powerful buffing build, but everyone seems to be irrationally terrified of actually going for a party in this dungeon crawl to actually use said buffs on.

OctarineShrike · Jun 13, 2020

Big 3 plans currently are

Maximum Defense:
[] Exhausted
[] Evening Sky - Opalescence
[] Evening Sky - Iridescence
[] Evening Sky - Pearlescence
[] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard

Ring+Defense
[] Exhausted
[] The Ring of Power - Dominion - 2 Arete
[] The Ring of Power - Preeminence - 7 Arete
[] Evening Sky - Opalescence - The soft light of evening before which all attacks falter.
[] Evening Sky - Iridescence - 2 Arete

Gown+Offense+Defense
[] Exhausted
[] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[] Evening Sky - Evening Gown - 7 Arete (2 picks)
[] Evening Sky - Opalescence

Thomasfoolery · Jun 13, 2020

Redshirt Army said:
Rest up, maybe poke the camp now that we're in a stonger position and hire some buddies (the +Charisma will help here too!)

Not sure this kind of backtracking is kosher, I wouldn't mind if it's possible though, even with us no longer getting the good introduction bonus. As we'd have extra power and an actual foray into the middle layer under our belt to balance things out.

Prospalz · Jun 13, 2020

Byzantine said:
And it won't matter because we are so much weaker we will die before we ever get a chance to use it. You are deeply underestimating just how underleveled we are.

Do I, tho? Success percentages posted by Rihaku so far do not give that sort of an impression; and this encounter does not feel too different from what happened with the first knight in the outer temple.

LordOfMurder · Jun 13, 2020

Rihaku said:
She's undergo Sorcerous Evolution, using another system of advancement!

Wait wait wait, does this mean Gisena might gain access to a power that isn't just more Nullity!

Orm Embar · Jun 13, 2020

LordOfMurder said:
Evening Gown is considerably better than Pearlescence though.

Pearlescence is an effective XP modifier on top of the +3 Protection, applied automatically to the third part of our panoply. Every fight we win would get us more power; it's a great long-term potential type FB, better the earlier it's taken. Like the moon mentioned in the option, we forever grow beyond the reach of our enemies, laughing at their attempts to strike us down.

Prospalz said:
TBF, Evening Gown goes toward an EFB too, if not as effectively as pretty much buying bits of one piece by piece.

We actually have one Arete already committed toward Once and Future, in addition to the nine we spent on buying Bloodmight last time around. I... really don't want to give the thread another Arete sink, another EFB to chase, splitting our focus a third way. We should follow through on our previous commitment, not burn the resources we need to purchase the Holy Grail of ++ Progression & ++ All Stats.

Rihaku · Jun 13, 2020

Current vote count?

BrainInAJar said:
Plus, we finally get our arm back! Isn't that nice? Something to work towards?

Didn't you guys resolve to discard mere sentimentality in favor of raw power?

LordOfMurder said:
Interesting that we don't have to kill our enemy to get the hunger power we just have to beat them. Non Lethal S rank when?

You've never had to kill them. See the pirate fight...

LordOfMurder said:
If we can scrape together 2 more arete this build seems pretty good. Opealescence and iridescence give increased protection and cha and let evening sky actually protect from magic attacks which it currently doesn't. Vanguard gives Gisena the defensive buffs to complement the offensive buffs from the ring.

Vanguard is somewhat overkill if Gisena is the only other active party member and you're getting Evening Gown. You'd probably be better off saving the Arete!

Byzantine said:
Everything is questionable about scaling enemies like the ones we face because we can always encounter something that is a direct counter to our build. A swarm against the Power build, hit and run against the defense build, And anything sufficiently Tough against the generalist ring build.

There are always enemies you can't beat, but the percentage of enemies you can't beat within a given level range is much higher for certain builds than others. For example, builds with 100% of their resources invested into offense and 0% into defense, or vice-versa, will poorly against most enemies in a given level range. That does not mean that 50/50 is the optimal split, of course. It's up to you what you'd like to do with that information. If you want to vote for pure defense and convince others to do the same, that's your prerogative. The world simulation will continue apace.

Though it kinda smells like you're trying your 'vote against what i want early on so i can switch to what i really want later' tactic, given how vehement you've been about special attacks in the past... which is fine, but you don't want to mislead other voters who actually believe you!

LordOfMurder said:
Wait wait wait, does this mean Gisena might gain access to a power that isn't just more Nullity!

No.

A Simple Transaction I

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