I would actually like to seek out people, and not just because the adventurers are likely to have relevant institutional expertise. Hunger hasn't talked to anyone but his two companions for... how long? We didn't take the Plumed Offering, so the most recent exchange would've been Bearic pledging to kill him, or some off-screen chat with a farmer. Given current events, we can all empathize with feeling cooped up, and I'm pretty sure there's a circle of hell where you're just locked in a room with only Gisena for a conversational partner. One of the deeper ones, at that.

The problem is that Push in Further comes with not only Arete, but Rank! A sliver of ambrosia, the godstat itself. It brings us up to 4.2... or 4.22, with Root and Branch. Apex with Push has us sitting at 4.4 without expending Arete, something I think people are sleeping on. Remember, we have Form as a safety net, and the higher our Rank the more effective it is. Push has compounding effectiveness for every additional red option taken later! If you want to carve a swath of wrath and ruin through the Temple, if you want to become The Danger again? This is the way.

Also, it's got the same hex code as the update's title.
 
[X] Sweep the Outskirts
[X] Don't Bring Gisena
[X] Dreadnought
-[X] Sharp of Eye


Ya didn't have to make me care about a fictional character, but ya went and did it anyways. I won't give up on long-term recovery from trauma and overcoming the burden of a horrific past, not simply because you dangled a little mechanical bonus in front of me and rang a bell. What a joke.

Now give me back that eye.
 
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Hmmm, can you be so certain of that?

>turns out bearic is also grinding in this dungeon

WELP

I feel like you missed my point here. It doesn't matter why Seram took the action that on its face was more risky, the point is that when further information was revealed the safe option was perhaps not that safe afterall. So trying to break things down into some sort of threshold of risk is always going to be imperfect. Because all choices have unknown consequences and you're never going to be able to say: "This option is only 1% on the risk scale, this one is 10%, I have no moral impetus to take the 10% so I 100% take the 1%" Because that requires omniscience. This becomes very much more relevant especially when you know you're in a rising tide scenario.

This doesn't actually make a point though? Yes, you're not omniscient and yes, your estimations of risk will be imperfect. Neither of those are reason to throw out risk assessment entirely! All you can do is do your best to assess the dangers involved and act accordingly. It's almost certain that choosing what you think are the riskiest options will lead to death more often than not doing so. That there exists scenarios where this isn't true doesn't make it a useless principle to operate by.
 
Hm... are you guys certain you want to kneecap your AGI and AGI growth at this juncture? Could be potentially bad timing if you run into more creatures on the scale of the hill-eater. You still lack data about the monster distribution of this locale, after all! It may be wise to take a build that commits less singlemindedly given the risks involved!

[X] Sweep the Outskirts
[X] Don't Bring Gisena
[] Dreadnought
-[X] Sharp of Eye


Ya didn't have to make me care about a fictional character, but ya went and did it anyways. I won't give up on long-term recovery from trauma and overcoming the burden of a horrific past, not simply because you dangled a little mechanical bonus in front of me and rang a bell. What a joke.

Now give me back that eye.

Hm... I wouldn't say options like Einhander and Rune King are about surrendering one's recovery from trauma. It's more about "being complete, in this form" and leveraging the symbolic and metaphysical aspects of that form in powerful ways. Let the enemy's cut make you stronger. And of course, there's nothing to stop you guys from fixing his arm and lung but choosing to sacrifice the eye, or vice versa.

This doesn't actually make a point though? Yes, you're not omniscient and yes, your estimations of risk will be imperfect. Neither of those are reason to throw out risk assessment entirely! All you can do is do your best to assess the dangers involved and act accordingly. It's almost certain that choosing what you think are the riskiest options will lead to death more often than not doing so. That there exists scenarios where this isn't true doesn't make it a useless principle to operate by.

Indeed, though the prospect of risk and its attendant rewards are naturally more appealing when it's not one's own neck at risk... perhaps the meta-gains involved should be adjusted in this light!
 
[X] Push in Further
[X] Dreadnought
- Echo, Dreadnought's Bearing
-[X] Rune King

Alright, I'll harden my heart; let's sacrifice our eye so that we may see further beyond our opposition!
with To Shatter Heaven applied we won't necessarily need a 7 Arete magic system to get excellent value and effects

As for our actions.. It's definitely dangerous but I feel we need to push just a little more to hit our stride.
 
If the plan is to tailor your approach with what's learned, why not consider the noncommittal path of Apex?

I wouldn't mind it too much, if I vote Apex though I'll be tempted to pair it with Push in Further, which is a bad combination. I also feel its prime time was last update, at this point it leaves us somewhat stagnant and at the mercy of events to come in order to pay out, rather than in a better position to shape things. I'm also not hugely interested in another magic system.

This doesn't actually make a point though? Yes, you're not omniscient and yes, your estimations of risk will be imperfect. Neither of those are reason to throw out risk assessment entirely! All you can do is do your best to assess the dangers involved and act accordingly. It's almost certain that choosing what you think are the riskiest options will lead to death more often than not doing so. That there exists scenarios where this isn't true doesn't make it a useless principle to operate by.

My point is I don't agree your initial premise of being able to take safe actions and get secure? You can run risk assessment on near term likely results of courses of actions sure, but you were espousing the idea you always take the less risky option based on that. Which I think is doomed to failure over time. I never said you take the riskiest options remember, I even mentioned the Temple as being a likely unnecessary escalation, just that as a principle always default selection to the perceived safe option is not a likely path to success in our circumstances.
 
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Ya didn't have to make me care about a fictional character, but ya went and did it anyways. I won't give up on long-term recovery from trauma and overcoming the burden of a horrific past, not simply because you dangled a little mechanical bonus in front of me and rang a bell. What a joke.

Now give me back that eye.
You know what? You're right. Are we just puppets, dancing to the tune of optimization? Leaves blown this way or that by the latest blurbs? No. We're questers who care about our protagonist.

[X] Push in Further
[X] Dreadnought
- Echo, Dreadnought's Bearing
-[X] Sharp of Eye

Rocky wins in the end anyway.
 
[X] Push in Further
[X] Dreadnought - Echo, Dreadnought's Bearing
-[X] Rune King
 
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The Winnowing Garden
Well, that title is somewhat intimidating. It implies that most who enter this place get whittled down. Or maybe We're the ones doing the winnowing? Based on the outcome, probably the latter.

It did not sit well with him to stay idle while his physical body regenerated, but neither could he afford to take undue risks in this state. He resolved to scout the surrounding area and pick off any isolated knights that presented themselves. If other enemies appeared, he would do his best to withdraw until he had an idea of their capabilities.
My pick, of course. And one I'm happy about. Sitting around would have just meant rolling the dice again later, an I stand by that. It's good Hunger has good tactical knowledge even without our guidance... because I think he may actually be our superior in it. Though this is a pretty obvious one: hit and run on the loners. Flee against the unknown.

The knights were sparsely dotted across these grassy plains, many of them situated in locations of tactical import - hills and fens, caves and groves, wherever a vantage point or natural fortification might present itself. He passed by a gently babbling brook that was, disappointingly, utterly devoid of life. Not that he had a fishing pole at the moment, with Letrizia's supplies beyond the Temple gates.
Wonder if there's a reason the lone knights tended to be at fortifications of some sort? For lone individuals that are melee-based being inside a fortification is actually a disadvantage, if anything. But then I suppose questioning the nature of this place could easily drive one mad. Perhaps they were assigned to those posts long ago and simply continue their ancient duty with no regard for the passage of time?

The lack of life continues to be concerning. Something hunted down every bug, every minnow, every rat, every sparrow... This place is even more hostile than it appears.

He wondered what, if anything, the people in here ate. Was it possible to live off the land, did adventurers simply bring their own meals?

Perhaps they live on forage found outside, or maybe the food is imported to the watchtower town? That would explain a few things.

Speed and strength having been bolstered by the first knight he felled, and wise now to their tactics, he dispatched further singleton knights without issue, though not without the occasional wound or two. It seemed a somewhat sustainable means of harvesting power without undue risk, though increasing patrols of heavily-armored knights began to appear in the region he frequented, as the hours ticked by and their isolated comrades died. They even attempted to pincer him into an ambush, with a lone knight on a tall hill serving as bait, but he sniffed out the attack when he entered the armored giant's sight and was not immediately pounced upon.
Double Echo was a good pick. Interesting that they began to finally catch on to being hunted and started to set up traps, though. That implies at least a modest level of cunning. That it took hunger more than an instant to spot the trap means it was actually quite well done. His instincts for these things are beyond impress. Getting nickled and dimed in terms of injures is a pain, though. We need to grab some form of sort-term healing when we have a chance. Having to die and wait a day to revive is inconvenient.

Tedious and increasingly risky. His enemies were no strategic geniuses, but neither were they fools. They had some basic conception of cause and effect, the ability to organize and call reinforcements as they fell. Should this continue he had little doubt this region of the Temple would be swarming with the things, and who knew if there was any limit to their number, to say nothing of greater escalations.
Aka: if I keep this up all day even a child would be able to figure out what's next, and then they'd swarm me with sheer numbers. No thank you. Probably the right move, here. We didn't want to fight a group and if there were any strays left there was too high a chance we'd run into a patrol if we kept going. The increase in power from this was modest... but worth it.

With that in mind, he called it a night and withdrew, but was intercepted along the way by an enormous burrowing wurm-creature, its titanic length erupting from the green earth in a world-sundering burst of noise and motion, tides of heaving pitch-black loam, shattered-stone shrapnel in a furious geyser as it snapped at him. Its quadruply-segmented jaw, thick with stone-cracking fangs, was mercifully slower than the wind-light mass of his spirit body; though the heaving bulk of its follow-through, like an onrushing train, caught him out with its whiplash speed. He was thrown back and away, cratering the hard earth as he landed, vision gone blurry for a moment as fragments of his spirit-corpus lost coherence and dispersed. And then, quick as it'd come, it was gone, disappeared beneath the earth once more.
Boss interrupt. Giant stone worm boss interrupt. That's problematic. And terrifying. Someone, turn on the Tremors music! Get Dune! Prepare for the giant Worm battle! We shall not go down against a mere worm!

Like a bomb going off the worm had appeared: sudden destruction and chaos to be followed by a long, ear-ringing aftermath of tense silence. Now that he was attuned to it, he could hear the mountainous rumble of its passage beneath, gliding smoothly through dirt and stone, circling about its intended prey. How much strength, how much sheer force of momentum, was required to move so effortlessly through the solid earth?
...Though admittedly it is a very powerful worm. More of a train, really. This thing has to have incredibly strength, though. In the tens of +'s. ...Though it has very low twitch action, since it hits like a train but moves like one too. That doesn't make it slow, though.

Would this be the one, this nameless, eyeless beast? Would it force out the power he'd pledged, not hours ago, to forsake except in direst extremity?
Hopefully not. Triggering Form of Rage here would be unfortunate. Though not the worst timing, as we were already on the path to retreat.

No. It would not be here, not now, not to this overgrown muckraker. He ran, sprinting for the antechamber, pounding footfalls alerting the beast to his location as he moved. Coming across a rocky hill, he climbed it, pacing across its length as if undecided as to his next destination.
Oh, guess Hunger decided that for us. Reasonable. Now let's see if he can put his actions where his thoughts are and actually take this thing down without burning Form of Rage.

There. The rumbling of its movements had paused. Some might take it that the pursuer had given up. He knew it for what it was. Unnatural stillness, like a serpent coiled to spring. Waiting to ensure its target would not spook or startle before it committed to the attack. The Tyrant had been fond of movements such as this. One did not spring the trap until the bait was claimed.
Hunger's instincts really are very impressive. As is his perception. The Worm did not have the intelligence to realize it had been spotted and was being watched, for lack of better words. Which is good, given everything else.

He closed his eyes, become still and silent, attuned to the world around him, the whorls and eddies of Pressure as it twisted the skeins of chance, bringing the physical world in alignment with his wishes. The ring of power blazed on his hand, crimson light like an anglerfish lure, enticing the creature's avarice, its hunger. Now, he prodded it. Strike now and fill the gnawing emptiness within.
Is this the first time we've used the Ring's active effect to manipulate others? I can't remember another time. I suppose we were lucky this worm was a mere beast. Something with more intelligence may have noticed the prod and failed to respond. But a beast has no choice but to follow the instincts we are pouring into it with all we can afford.

And so it did, thunderous blast of roaring sound as its jaws swallowed earth and sky, the hill given way in a instant, plunged within the monster's gullet. But he was already gone, sprung away in that final moment, now attached like a limpet to the creature's side, running down its length, splitting its carapace with the Forebear's Blade to carve himself a crevice. A makeshift warren, cut into the monster's absurdly thick armor, within which he could withstand the awesome pressures of the creature's movement underground. Inside he climbed, as sun and sky disappeared, his world become a blind narrow place of heat and abrading force, this subterranean ocean where errant stone and branch passed with speed enough to splinter limbs and shatter bone.
Well.. That's... certainly one way to fight an incredibly powerful beat like this. Cut it open and jump inside. We got lucky it didn't really have any kind of defense against this, though. Imagine if it had some of shredding hairs, meant for attacking others of its kind? ...I probably need to be careful giving Rihaku ideas, here. or not, he's probably got much nastier things than I could casually think of in mind.

Anyway, underground express via Worm. I did not expect the flea tactic but it seems to be working pretty well. At least in the sense it hasn't killed us yet. ...Though since we are in spiritual form could we just phase through that rock, since it's mundane, even if the worm itself is not?

But ensconced in its armor he felt none of that, and steadily cut himself further in, a fell-handed excavator cleaving the outer crust to the treasures secreted within. At last he reached a vein, springy flesh yielding tenderly to the Forebear's Blade, and where he struck huge gouts of acid spat outwards and at him, the monster's pressurized digestive juices or perhaps merely its blood. The Evening Sky wrapped around him, he stubbornly cut onwards, even as the outer boundary of his spirit-flesh began to waver and burn away. Before long he reached a pocket of empty air, esophageal flesh coated with mucus, and tucked himself inside, the stars of his cloak his only light. By their illumination he ran, up and through the monster's digestive tunnel, instincts guiding him to an organ of greater import. Acid dribbled off his form, coating his footsteps as he ran. There was pain but he ignored the pain, easy to do in this body of wraith-flesh.
This is not how it's supposed to go, Jonah! But more seriously I am more grateful to the evening sky every update. Totally worth working ourselves to the bone to get the 7 arete. I'm surprised the inside of the creature was pleasant as it was, really. Most creatures would be even worse than that worm. This is not a tactic we should repeat. Ever. We are very lucky Hunger has faced his end so many times, or he may have faltered here.

There. A cluster of nerve endings, synapses as thick as his fist, sheltered within a calcite growth of hardened stone. Thickly spooled nerves radiated from the organ, spiraling into the creature's musculature, wrapped densely around translucent reservoirs of bright green acid. It pulsed steadily in time to the wurm's movements, part part action potential, part heartbeat.
And a weak spot. Good. Our time was running short. Fortunately with a weak spot and Ruin there is almost nothing we cannot kill. Which really is fortunate given we were in the Worm's stomach and dying this entire time. Not pleasant, that.

Likely not the only such organ in a beast of this length, but he only needed the one. Marshaling his energies he struck down with the Forebear's Blade, attacking mind and spirit more than flesh, and at this the wurm jerked, twisting and tunneling in a futile attempt to dislodge what was already within. Again and again he stabbed downwards; each steady, gruesome blow left a wound leaking pale-white soul matter out into nothingness. The wurm convulsed, acid ducts widening, mucus flooding the tunnel in an attempt to sweep him free, drown him out, but it was too slow by far. He attacked unrelentingly, drawing upon his uttermost reserves of energy, and by the time he was knee-deep in mucus half a dozen soul-fraying wounds were buried in its nerve cluster. Positioning himself sideways against its esophagus-wall, he continued to run, occasionally striking out with another fell blow as his energies recovered.
The benefits of Ruin. Redundant organs are not very effective if the destruction of one releases a deadly poison across your entire body. Especially if the redundancy was minor.

This is one of those times we really need a longer sword, it would have been much less work has the Forebear's blade been its repaired length. Saber, that choice from so long ago, would probably have helped significantly here. A thing to remember for the next time we are presented a clear chance to repair the blade.

And so we make our escape. It was far, far too close.

Its primitive mind and soul bled dry by his onslaught, the creature did not last long. For all its towering physical might, it was, in the end, only a worm, and though the force of it spirit was unusually bountiful, still it had no way to stem the bleeding, no means to replenish what his attacks irrevocably stole. Eventually it ground to a slow, shuddering halt, meters-thick layers of muscle twitching and undulating stupidly, its intellect utterly banished, dispersed into the aether by the Forebear's cruel power. Unable now to control or regulate its internal functions, it was a helplessly breathing corpse, meat to the slaughter. He decoupled Blade from belt and began the bloody work.

Poor thing ultimately died without ever realizing what was happening, didn't it? Ah, it was a fight to the death and there can't be mercy in those. Not so easily.

We gained significant power from this fight. That's good, given how dangerously close it brought us to triggering rage... and maybe dying for real.

-----

1038 words. I'll do the most recent chapter shortly.
 

This is like eulogizing at a funeral and then tripping off the podium to fall flat onto your face.

Hm... I wouldn't say options like Einhander and Rune King are about surrendering one's recovery from trauma. It's more about "being complete, in this form" and leveraging the symbolic and metaphysical aspects of that form in powerful ways.

I know, I know. In the real world, the path to recovering from trauma is usually accepting it and the changes it brings and finding a way to work around those changes when they stop you from doing what you want. But is it so wrong to want to simply charge head-in and win, to actually overcome it? I like power as much as the next guy, but what's the point of being given the power of unlimited progression if you don't use it to get the things you actually want? I feel like turning down one of these "part-recovery" options is failing on an actual goal, an end. Losing sight of the actual Telos.
 
Honestly I don't see the appeal of Dreadnought. It provides significant defensive buffs and rare stats - and I understand people being draw to Rune King. But you are aware that Rihaku doesn't promote things because they would be the optimal build or even the best story, right? He's promoting it because it did relatively poorly prior to the consolidation vote, and has few voices for it.

His Devil's advocacy would have gotten us killed had we followed it at least twice, so while he isn't going to lie stop and think about what you commit us to!

But Dreadnought itself is 7 arete and is purely defensive in nature. I'm not sure why it's being advertised as something to increase our immediate strength. That's... about the only thing it fails to do.
 
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Just caught up, and:
If you got some reliable means to raise your WITS, and also had versatile and responsive magic, that would be one way to obviate the need for AGI, so long as you could rely on said magic in all situations... hm. You'd probably want something like the Royal Praxis for that!
And here, Rihaku, I thought you were going to say 'Ordinal Spiral' here. Teleport spam! Mash a whole bunch of upgrades to Teleport!

Just gotta work out omnidimensional functionality.
 
We don't need a Green Lantern Ring
Now, I know each of those words individually, but when you put them together in that order they make no sense at all.
Let the enemy's cut make you stronger.
I dunno, I think I might be feeling like rising above the enemy, and demonstrating that Hunger is already stronger, and that the enemy had no lasting effect, instead.

Let the Tyrant's measure be that he hindered Hunger for a brief time, instead of Hunger's measure being that he overcame the Tyrant.

Arrogant, perhaps but this is an effort in shaping Hunger's legend. No need to dream small, and be shaped forever by that one guy from back then.
 
Just caught up, and:

And here, Rihaku, I thought you were going to say 'Ordinal Spiral' here. Teleport spam! Mash a whole bunch of upgrades to Teleport!

Just gotta work out omnidimensional functionality.
I am fully in favor of teleport spam. That it negates the weakness of Stranglethorn is only icing on the cake! What's better than being able to be wherever whenever!?
 
I'd like to discuss short term build prospects for Ordinalism if somehow we unlock it. For the people who weren't here for Gardens of Enoch, Ordinalism is a 26 level magic system that peaks at being able to fight Lovecraftian entities and at the 20th Ordinal you can have enough power to engage a competent Accretion Rank 10. It has Nobilis+ Level Meta-Defense, which I'm assuming means Gisena's powers are unable to nullify anything done with Ordinalism without massively powering her up(The Gardens of Enoch: Terrascape Academy Original).

We should take Valor! Who knows what hidden synergy it might have with the Forebear's Blade? And besides that-- it's a very gud sord!
 
Current vote count?

Just caught up, and:

And here, Rihaku, I thought you were going to say 'Ordinal Spiral' here. Teleport spam! Mash a whole bunch of upgrades to Teleport!

Just gotta work out omnidimensional functionality.

Hm... given how much training it requires, would you really want the Ordinal Spiral at this juncture? Your +Int's not THAT high! It would give you a good chance to grind Wits, though. Finding a good system to slot with Accretion is serious business. You want something that both feels good and works well in conjunction.

I dunno, I think I might be feeling like rising above the enemy, and demonstrating that Hunger is already stronger, and that the enemy had no lasting effect, instead.

Let the Tyrant's measure be that he hindered Hunger for a brief time, instead of Hunger's measure being that he overcame the Tyrant.

Arrogant, perhaps but this is an effort in shaping Hunger's legend. No need to dream small, and be shaped forever by that one guy from back then.

What does it mean to dream big? Is it to spend the greater portion of power on restoration, rather than leveraging the metaphysical strength of that loss to vastly greater strength? A Namekian's regeneration, or the ruinous eruption of grief and might that precedes the Saiyan legend? Ten thousand blades, or one knight of the round? The eight-armed destroyer, or the Hand of Justice itself? Restoration, or apotheosis?
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Byzantine on Jun 7, 2020 at 11:03 PM, finished with 90 posts and 36 votes.
 
...I'm terrified the vote is going to go exactly like it did last time. I don't want that to happen again. We seriously messed up getting Rage as it is significantly riskier than most of us thought, in that the trigger can and will fail for regular foes.

To the Dreadnought voters that don't want us to lose an eye: I'll owe you one if you switch to Strangletorn, or even keep Strong sword arm in play.
 
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When we took Vendetta, we decided Hunger would postpone the resurrection of his family for an untold number of years before giving up a chance at revenge. When we decided to throw him into danger again and again, we decided to make him the kind of person who would rather risk death than rely on his friends. When we decided not to take Unshattered, Queller or Conclusion, we decided to prioritise power over psychological well being.

Deciding you're going to use your amazing magical powers to remove all your physical scars doesn't actually change the impact they had on you. Hunger getting his eye back will not turn back the clock. It won't restore his innocence, it won't unmurder his friends and family and it won't make him less obsessed with vengeance. All it will do is restore his depth perception and give him access to Special Eyes.

It rings more than a little hollow to decide to take Sharp Eyed for recovery from trauma after all that.
 
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Deciding you're going to use your amazing magical powers to remove all your physical scars doesn't actually change the impact they had on you. Hunger getting his eye back will not turn back the clock. It won't restore his innocence, it won't unmurder his friends and family and it won't make him less obsessed with vengeance. All it will do is restore his depth perception and give him access to Special Eyes.
It allows him to take something back that the tyrant stole from him. For the first time.

That is a powerful message and will be good for him, that should not be ignored.

It is a message to the Tyrant, and to the ones pulling the strings that did all of this to him. A message that they are nothing, and everything they did is for nought. That hunger will undue all that they have wrought. And he will never, ever stop. Not until the last vestiges of their influence has been purged from every world.
 
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