The Winnowing Garden
If the guys we are facing here are meant to separate the metaphorical wheat from the chaff, will the Eminem's further within take that wheat and grind it into flower? More seriously, this title makes me think that we will end up finding some sort of plant monster further in this area, because what kind fantasy dungeon garden doesn't have killer plants?
The knights were sparsely dotted across these grassy plains, many of them situated in locations of tactical import - hills and fens, caves and groves, wherever a vantage point or natural fortification might present itself.
This temple is such a crazy place. We have already seen stuff that suggests it's bigger on the inside, but we have no idea how much space or variety there might be inside of it. For all we know, it could go on forever!
He passed by a gently babbling brook that was, disappointingly, utterly devoid of life. Not that he had a fishing pole at the moment, with Letrizia's supplies beyond the Temple gates.
Poor Hunger, denied once again the opportunity to fish! Not that this is the time to fish, though. I wonder why there aren't any fish. Could it be that this garden is purposely kept free of animals by the knights that live here, or are there just not really life forms in this temple besides horrifically deadly monsters?
He wondered what, if anything, the people in here ate. Was it possible to live off the land, did adventurers simply bring their own meals?
A good question. It's going to suck if we run out supplies, and it turns out that there isn't food available in this temple. I have suspicions that all of this is illusory to some extent, just going by the name of the temple, so it might turn out that, even if we find something we could theoretically eat, it might not be 'real' enough to satiate us!
It seemed a somewhat sustainable means of harvesting power without undue risk, though increasing patrols of heavily-armored knights began to appear in the region he frequented, as the hours ticked by and their isolated comrades died. They even attempted to pincer him into an ambush, with a lone knight on a tall hill serving as bait, but he sniffed out the attack when he entered the armored giant's sight and was not immediately pounced upon.

Tedious and increasingly risky. His enemies were no strategic geniuses, but neither were they fools. They had some basic conception of cause and effect, the ability to organize and call reinforcements as they fell. Should this continue he had little doubt this region of the Temple would be swarming with the things, and who knew if there was any limit to their number, to say nothing of greater escalations.
Interesting to see that these guys have some sort of genuine intelligence to them. I wonder if they are fully sapient, or if they are merely limited to an animal sort of cunning, instead. For that matter, I wonder if their ability to coordinate reinforcements means that they have some sort of civilization, or at least a higher power that organizes them.
With that in mind, he called it a night and withdrew, but was intercepted along the way by an enormous burrowing wurm-creature, its titanic length erupting from the green earth in a world-sundering burst of noise and motion, tides of heaving pitch-black loam, shattered-stone shrapnel in a furious geyser as it snapped at him.
Talk about something coming out of left field! Poor Hunger, though, that thing can't have been what he wanted to see at the end of a long day of hunting knights!
Its quadruply-segmented jaw, thick with stone-cracking fangs, was mercifully slower than the wind-light mass of his spirit body; though the heaving bulk of its follow-through, like an onrushing train, caught him out with its whiplash speed.
This thing is nearly as fast as Hunger, and quick enough at accelerating from resting position to get the drop on him! What a terrifying foe to face after all this hunting.
Now that he was attuned to it, he could hear the mountainous rumble of its passage beneath, gliding smoothly through dirt and stone, circling about its intended prey. How much strength, how much sheer force of momentum, was required to move so effortlessly through the solid earth?
The real question is, does this worm have the spice?
Would this be the one, this nameless, eyeless beast? Would it force out the power he'd pledged, not hours ago, to forsake except in direst extremity?

No. It would not be here, not now, not to this overgrown muckraker.
That's right, Hunger, don't ever back down! Cultivate that stubborn refusal to die, we'll need it if we want to avoid ever having Form of Rage fail to trigger.
He knew it for what it was. Unnatural stillness, like a serpent coiled to spring. Waiting to ensure its target would not spook or startle before it committed to the attack. The Tyrant had been fond of movements such as this. One did not spring the trap until the bait was claimed.
Man, Hunger, you really do like to compare everything to the Tyrant, don't you? I suppose it makes sense, given that he was your greatest enemy for most of what you can remember of your life, but I feel like this is sort of taking it overboard. Not everything has to be about Him, you know? Once we get you to civilization, we should probably take you to a therapist for all this trauma.
But he was already gone, sprung away in that final moment, now attached like a limpet to the creature's side, running down its length, splitting its carapace with the Forebear's Blade to carve himself a crevice. A makeshift warren, cut into the monster's absurdly thick armor, within which he could withstand the awesome pressures of the creature's movement underground. Inside he climbed, as sun and sky disappeared, his world become a blind narrow place of heat and abrading force, this subterranean ocean where errant stone and branch passed with speed enough to splinter limbs and shatter bone.
Ah, the classic 'feed yourself to an enemy and kill it from the inside play'! Reminds me of Ryuugi's The Games We Play. What a crazy ride that was.
The Evening Sky wrapped around him, he stubbornly cut onwards, even as the outer boundary of his spirit-flesh began to waver and burn away. Before long he reached a pocket of empty air, esophageal flesh coated with mucus, and tucked himself inside, the stars of his cloak his only light. By their illumination he ran, up and through the monster's digestive tunnel, instincts guiding him to an organ of greater import.
And here we Evening Sky's true strongest ability - the ability to be a night light! Who needs night vision when you've got a sick, glow in the dark cloak?
Likely not the only such organ in a beast of this length, but he only needed the one. Marshaling his energies he struck down with the Forebear's Blade, attacking mind and spirit more than flesh, and at this the wurm jerked, twisting and tunneling in a futile attempt to dislodge what was alrady within.
The Forbear's Blade is so ridiculously good. I am so glad we took it all the way when we were picking lesser remittances. Imagine how much it would suck to have to kill this thing the normal, instead of using our defense bypassing, soul stabbing sword. Not to mention the use of having having an infinitely repeatable one cost pick available to us in Echo of the Forbear!
The wurm convulsed, acid ducts widening, mucus flooding the tunnel in an attempt to sweep him free, drown him out, but it was too slow by far.
And there goes its vomit reflex. I guess we are stabbing it in the giant worm equivalent of the uvula?
For all its towering physical might, it was, in the end, only a worm, and though the force of it spirit was unusually bountiful, still it had no way to stem the bleeding, no means to replenish what his attacks irrevocably stole.
I wonder if we can eat this thing. It tried to eat us, it's only fair if we turn the tables, right? Who knows, we might even get some benefits out of it, if the fish is anything to go by.
[ ] No. [Cost - 2 Arete] Choose 4 picks below. Hunger is grievously wounded, hanging on to his spirit form by the barest tether of ghostly life.
It costs two Arete and leaves us almost dead - this is hideously expensive for an extra pick and only makes sense if we want to grab Stranglethorn right now.
[ ] Yes, Obviously. Choose 3 picks below. Gain 1 Echo of the Forebear. Hunger is badly wounded, having less than half his spiritual corpus remaining.
Although we can't take Stranglethorn with these, having three picks and a mandatory echo is great by itself, even ignoring the net 3 Arete and the fact that we will be in better shape. Worth noting that this and Dreadnought's Bearing gives us the same amount of +Con as Stranglethorn.
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear - Cloud-shadow of the Forebear's might.
Legendary strength and speed, and the resilience to exert them. Can be taken multiple times. [+Might, +Agility]
The classic! Not too much to say about - always good, if not always the best.
[ ] Evening Sky - Opalescence - The soft light of evening before which all attacks falter.
Improves defensive parameters. [+Protection]
Another cheap and useful option! Not likely to see action today, though - we have got access to much more expensive and juicier options.
[ ] The Ring of Power - Dominion: Life - 2 Arete
A ring of power does not exert influence casually. It has its own will, its own preferences, and if that will should be inseparable from its owner's, its sway thereby shall be greater for it.
Ah, if only you were War! While it's good for healing us, it does little for our actual combat ability at the moment.
[ ] Feat: Apex - +.2 Astral Rank (2 picks) - Who is King? Who else but he who suffers the Tyrant's Doom?
Rank is called the god stat for a reason! Even if it isn't the flashiest pick, we can never go wrong with more Rank.
[ ] The Ring of Power - Gardener's Hallow (7 Arete, 2 picks) - Unto this land, I give my blood.

By infusing vegetation or livestock with his blood, the wielder may impart upon it supernatural properties. These range from the basic (consuming this fruit grants you an Echo of the Forebear) to the incredible (consuming this cow awakens your full Astral Rank from your Defensive Rank and remove the Defensive Rank penalty) to the spectacular (consuming this fish ignites a meta-singularity of findross within you; should you survive then you may theoretically wield the True Quintessence). Similar effects don't stack.
A pure potential 7 Arete ability. The flexibility this provides is insane. We can make healing fruits, stat boosting fruits for all our party members, and all sorts of crazy effects. Unfortunately, the Apocryphal Curse means that Hinger won't be able to take this and retire to an idyllic life of fishing and farming, but hey, that's life when you're a Cursebearer.
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing (7 Arete, 3 picks) - The best defense is the Forebear's bearing.

Requires Undying Echo. Gain +++++++Constitution, +Protection. Gain 50% resistance to the Tired Condition, stacking multiplicatively with other sources of resistance, and 25% resistance to the Exhausted Condition. If you have, or later purchase, the [Iron Curtain] Advancement, you receive its benefits permanently rather than needing to activate them, and may choose to Ignore Exotic Attacks via a Constitution check rather than Deflecting them.

Choose:
Sharp of Eye - Regrow your eye. ++Wits, +Cha. You now have depth perception, making ranged attacks more effective. You may take options that require two eyes; there are surprisingly many.
Rune King - You may not regrow or replace your eye by any means. +Int, +Wisdom, Apply the effects of [To Shatter Heaven] to all magics you learn from now on.
Oh man, this option is so crazy, and it has amazing synergies with Form of Rage. Seven Con, a bonus protection, a fifty percent stacking reduction to Tired, a twenty five percent stacking reduction to Exhausted, and then some more brain stats plus getting either or eye and our aim back to To Shatter Heaven applied to ALL magic systems! We have already seen Iron Curtain, too - making that form permanent, instead of requiring us to get tired for limited use of it, would be a crazy synergy. In my opinion, this is by far the best option we can take right now.
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks) - Where he advanced, so did the tide of entire wars, the shock of his blade like a hurled epicenter, the trail of his passage but wasteland and rubble.

[+++++Strength]
Power of Ruin now scales upwards depending on your Strength.

Choose:
Einhander - You may not regrow or replace your left arm by any means. Substantially reduces the cost and increases the range of special attacks made with the Forebear's Blade. This Advancement grants Might instead of Strength (+Might = +Str, +Con).
Zweihander - Regrow your left arm. Your barehanded strikes now carry the full destructive power of the Forebear's Blade.

If Einhander is taken, unlocks One Arm Fury.
If Zweihander is taken, unlocks Martial Stances: Forebear's Blade
Another really powerful option! Unfortunately, it doesn't help us defensively unless we sacrifice our arm permanently, but there is something to be said for the raw, overwhelming power to end every fight in a single blow, especially if we take this and A Thousand Cuts to further multiply our ability to alpha strike everything in existence.
[ ] Hunger - Stranglethorn (4 picks)

Age and treachery made flesh.

The might of beasts is not the only province of the ring Hunger. It bears witness to a deeper and elder power as well, the strength of root and stem that bleeds life from the earth itself to thrust upwards towards heaven. The might of oaks, ancient and thousand-ringed, which crumbles stone and blunts steel, which repels the wind and absorbs the tide, which stands unscathed even in the face of heat and fury. That juggernaut stubbornness like a gnarled fist: the power to push through problems with patient, unyielding strength, to break them down and see them crushed beneath you.

Defining Advancement - You may currently have no more than three Defining Advancements.

Increase by 20% the value of all Rank +s
Double the value of Strength and Constitution +s
Double the value of Willpower +s
Reduce by 20% the value of Agility +s
Establishment: By committing meaningful resources towards a given context, and staking out a solid position, you slowly but increasingly accrue power and influence within that context, becoming ever-more inescapable and impossible to dislodge.
A powerful option! Unfortunately, we would have to pay two Arete and a lot of additional damage to take it right now. Gives more raw stats than any other options on the table right now! A bit anti-synergistic with all our Agility, though, especially with how Agility was the stat that carried us against the knights here. Also means we can't get a seven Arete cost this update, like we were initially hoping.
[ ] Keep Up Momentum - You got lucky. You won't always perform so well. Now is the time to seize the moment and capitalize on these gains by slaughtering all who come before you. Though you may be wounded, the greater portion of your power still slumbers, locked away in the event that you need it. [+Increased % chance of finding enemies you can handle, +0.5 Arete]
Bonus Arete, and an apparently decent chance to find something we can fight without dying or going into Form of Rage! Still is pretty risky, though.
[ ] Retreat to the Antechamber - You got lucky. Now stop gambling. Besides, you want to show Gisena your cool new... whatever.
The go back and heal option! Hopefully the door opens normally and we can leave, because I have a feeling that we will be in for a terrible night if we have to hack our way through the door.

A reaction for the Arete furnaces! (1185 words)
 
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[X] Pick Off Stragglers with [X] Brute Force has won.
:^)

Since I did a longform vote analysis last time and my chosen combination won, I'm going to purposefully interpret the correlation as causation and do the same thing here. Naively, without seeing other people post builds, so that I don't spoil my initial ideas.

Hunger Power Spacing

-No: Allows Stranglethorn builds and costs 2 Arete, but we're really hurt.

-Yes: Restricts us to 3 pick builds & another Echo, we're only sorta hurt.

Straightforwardly, we're in a pretty tenuous position. There is no guarantee that Rage will, in fact, proc to save us from death. It could fail; it's subject to a roll, unlike 2nd form. We need to pick some health restorative options, of which there are several available here (haha I'm stupid for not picking Swift last update, I guess). Rereading the description of Undying Vanguard from Hunter Hunted makes it seem like taking +Con while injured increases the size of the total health bar, but maintains the percentage of injury (e.g. 100 health, take 50 damage and be at 50% health. Buy a +Con and gain 20 health, now your health is 60/120: the percentage stays consistent to the total health).

XP/Arete Picks

-Echo: A classic, straight utility. Maybe good in a complicated build that runs out of Arete but still has another pick left.

-Opalescence: Ditto. Your preference of these two probably depends on the rest of your build.

-Dominion: Life: High healing utility on ourselves, which we need immediately. High general utility for healing and enhancing others. Frankly, this option is really competitive even among the other crazy offers here. Only behind them because Dominions don't stack and the bonus ends up relatively mild, but it's the only pure healing option. I think choosing this would also be really good for character reasons.

-Apex: It's Astral Rank.


-Gardener: Exactly like Swift last vote, in that it is indisputably really, really good, but might not be right for taking on the Temple. Taking it is really risky, since it has long term payoffs that don't align with the way we're currently attempting to gain power in the temple. Though those long term payoffs are better spread among our companions, require theoretically less long term risk, and make us indisputably economically valuable??? Though Dominion: Life does that too. Think about doing experiments with either of these while drawing on the resources of a hundred worlds' biomass and variability!

-Dreadnought: Fucking amazing, the nuts. Not just for the pure STATS that help us in this situation, but really for the way it mitigates Tired/Exhausted, syngerizes with a future [Iron Curtain], and allows either an eye regrowth and two-eye powers, or grants permanent x4 and limit break on all magics on top of stats. Exactly as amazing as a 7 arete 3 pick should be.

-Valor: Really good for offensive scaling, and we should absolutely go after it another day, seeing as it has come up multiple times now. Not competitive even with the ability to also take an arete-costing 0-pick, because of how injured we are; it's not safe to take this with delay and pick up (Vanguard and Opalescence)/(Dominion:Life), which are the only viable builds that use it.

-Stranglethorn: Beautiful. Really, really good. The Establishment is literally perfect for us. Everything here is perfect...except that it makes us slower, in a bad lasting permanent overall way, and requires us to be deathly injured on top of that. Assuming that the con gains are retroactively applied to health in the same way +Con is, is better than Dreadnought while also massively boosting strength.

-Vanguard, Thousand Cuts: These options are still both good, and exist to bolster builds which need a little more oomph. We already have Echo, which gives most of the Con from Vanguard, I think. But Cuts is pretty tasty as an offensive option.

What Do?

-Momentum: Scary, regardless of injury level, but really scary with the 4-pick option. The only possible benefit is if a really good healing/Con option is chosen, or if a build spends all their Arete: being halfway to an Arete might save us from losing an advancement when Rage procs, if it does. I guess it depends if you think that we'll be ambushed and killed on our way back. If you take a 4-Pick and think that the low health makes Rage inevitable regardless of which option you take, then you should take this instead, I guess, because at least you'll lose less Arete.

-Retreat: Probably for the best. Whatever is picked, we're pretty injured, and should take a lil break before going at it again. Minimizing risk this way, especially after just getting a big infusion of power, is a good move.

Build Ideas

My instinct says that Retreat is better than Momentum. We're injured, either decently or really badly, and while momentum does give some benefits I feel that discretion is the better part of valor, here. If I'm picking retreat, I can probably take one of the riskier picks. While I do not like losing Agi, losing 20% of our Agi right now is like ~1.5 Agi. The larger long-term cost of losing Agi and it being worth less is probably more important. I think my potential builds are:

1.
No
Stranglethorn
Retreat

I'm not taking Vanguard, it's a waste of 5 arete right now, even with Retreat. If we don't take Vanguard, we might be able to take another Stranglethorn-synergistic 7-Cost soon :V. This build gives both offensive and defensive potential, as well as sets us up for long-term temple victory. Only risk is that we get attacked on the way back to the antechamber by something that won't trigger Rage if it kills us. That's unlikely, but not impossible.

2.
Yes
Dreadnought's Bearing (Sharp of Eye)
Retreat

The defensive power of Dreadnought, with a little offense from Echo. This costs more Arete for a much worse but much safer build than Stranglethorn. Doesn't have the long-term costs of Stranglethorn vis-a-vis Agi and also is almost completely without an actual permadeath risk. trades Stranglethorn's Establishment bonus for safety against Tired/Exhuasted, which is important for Form of Rage. Sharp of Eye over Rune King because, even though Rune King is objectively better , the thought of Hunger giving up his eye permanently for power makes me actually physically nauseated. Sharp of Eye might allow undue gains in the future, as is implied, but that's a vague and weak-sounding mystery box compared to being offered To Shatter Heaven, even though To Shatter Heaven offers no immediate help whatsoever, and won't ever offer any if build votes go on they way they have been. But people are crazy about options that are as theoretically good as AST. So if Dreadnought wins then, by my reckoning, Rune King will be the extra option. I think Dreadnought might be the best play here, but I actually might be forced to not pick it if that's the case :/

I guess I'll pick Dreadnought and just change to the Stranglethorn build if it looks like Rune King is winning?? No idea what I'll do if Momentum wins, though. Probably stress-eat a lil. Though if Momentum is winning, we might get that Valor/Opalescence/Thousand Cuts fun build after all. We'd be leaning on Rage, tho.

[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing
-[X] Sharp of Eye
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber
- You got lucky. Now stop gambling. Besides, you want to show Gisena your cool new... whatever.
 
Stranglethorn would have made this fight harder. 4x Echoes would have made this fight way easier.
 
We're honestly pretty OK at the moment though, even without buying anything other then 2x Echo we'll be fine for further dungeon exploration once our second form replenishes.
The problem is we kinda aren't. I mean, we're barely okay and clearly still underleveled. If we roll poorly on our next encounter strength...

We're going to continue being underleveled with any pick save Stranglethorn, and even then it's questionable. Anyone who wants an option that isn't it has a myriad of choices - but many small plans fall before singular big ones. Overt power is a centralizing force, if nothing else.
Probably. But all the other picks greatly increase our ability to at least escape. This one only modestly does, and the cost of 7 arete means we won't be getting Cuts or the like any time sooner.

...And frankly the garden plants sound like the perfect thing for Apocryphal to attack just to screw us over.

Stranglethorn would have made this fight harder. 4x Echoes would have made this fight way easier.
With Stranglethorn we can also get vanguard and hence bring Gisena, which will help us in significantly more fights than it hurts us in.
 
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Ruinous Valour + Thousand Cuts is great because they make Echoes even more valuable than they already are through their scaling with our baseline attributes. Having an offensive option that will grow with us like that will eliminate the need to invest in that area for the foreseeable future, letting us focus on utility and defense. It's a pretty strong synergy.

A Gardener's Hollow Route is gambling on us finding a way to retreat I suppose. Leave the dungeon. Explore hunting and gardening prospects elsewhere, find a way to break the call's influence on us.

If we're just going to leave and not even explore the extreme rewards we can find in this place, why did we even bother coming? And the time we waste dealing with that stuff is time not spent growing to match Bearic. Without at least a solid amount of effort into scaling up, he's going to end up ganking us and our companions because that guy really knows how to grind and he's definitely not going to be fucking around.

Gardener is really, genuinely amazing, I can't deny that. But it just does not fit the situation we're in at all.
 
[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)

-[X] Zweihander
[X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
[X] Keep Up Momentum

wasn't feeling up to more comprehensive vote analysis, but in general I'd say that 3-4 pick options would be the best use here. Stranglethorn is the greediest option(we have to have basically no HP + spend 2 arete to get it, and it offers short term power that may even be a loss depending on the overall power of our foes + can't really afford to take hits anyway), Valor is most offensive(einhander would make it more balanced, but a lot of voters-including me-are unwilling to perma-maim), Bearing is most defensive with significant growth potential if perma-maimed(same reluctance applies here though). Hallow is fairly greedy, but less than Stranglethorn. it has high growth potential but we already have a time-expensive method of noncombat progression: sleeping. Thus the marginal value is slightly lower. Esoteric effects and empowerment of allies are pretty nice, though...
Voting for arms for now since I think stranglethorn might be too greedy, and Bearing seems just a little dubious to take right now since hitting up is more valuable for us than not triggering Rage. Later, if we get offered it again and can afford it, to patch up defensive holes.
 
Stranglethorn is the greediest option(we have to have basically no HP + spend 2 arete to get it, and it offers short term power that may even be a loss depending on the overall power of our foes + can't really afford to take hits anyway)
It's only greedy in the extreme short term. We're falling back to rest and will be healed when we return to our flesh form. And we can take Stranglethorn with Vanguard, which lets us bring a ridiculous-tanky Gisena with us.

Seriously, she'd probably be tankier than the worm-thing we just killed.
 
With Stranglethorn we can also get vanguard and hence bring Gisena, which will help us in significantly more fights than it hurts us in.
Stranglethorn also has to get out of the dungeon while:

* Grieveously wounded (10% HP? 20%? 30~40% effectiveness)
* Nerfed Agility

There's actually a significant and nontrivial risk of dying.
 
Stranglethorn also has to get out of the dungeon while:

* Grieveously wounded (10% HP? 20%? 30~40 effectiveness)
* Nerfed Agility

There's actually a significant risk of dying.
Rihaku has said the chance of an encounter is low (though not nonexistent). And the "nerfed agility" is still higher than we entered with. As long as we don't get a super-unlucky roll we'll make it to the anteroom where we can simply wait off our injuries. If we do get unlucky we have to hope we don't also get unlucky on a Rage roll. Though frankly if I was in Hunger's current state and something attacked me I would be utterly done with this bullshit.

Fortunately if we do get pushed into Rage it makes us obscenely powerful (6 times our current con and str!). Though for obvious reasons we want to avoid that.
 
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Rihaku has said the chance of an encounter is low (though not nonexistent). And the "nerfed agility" is still higher than we entered with. As long as we don't get a super-unlucky roll we'll make it to the anteroom where we can simply wait off our injuries. If we do get unlucky we have to hope we don't also get unlucky on a Rage roll. Though frankly if I was in Hunger's current state and something attacked me I would be utterly done with this bullshit.

Fortunately if we do get pushed into Rage it makes us obscenely powerful (6 times our current con and str!). Though for obvious reasons we want to avoid that.
We got hit by an unlucky roll while going for the safeish hunting option.

Also, Stranglethorn + 4x Echo vs 8x Echo:

Current
  • Agility: ++++++++ (8)
  • Strength: +++++
  • Constitution: ++++++++ (8)

Stranglethorn + 4x Echo:

Agility: 12*0.8 = 9.6 (+1.6 overall)
Strength: 9*2 = 18
Constitution: 12*2 = 24

8x Echo:

Agility: 8+8 = 16
Strength: 5+8 = 13
Constitution: 8+8 = 16

-5 STR, -8 CON, +6.4 AGI. If AGI is ~2x a stat, then Stranglethorn is only ahead by ~0.2 stats. It's also worse during our shadowform (right now), where a pure echoes build would be ahead by like 1~2 stats.

You can't ignore the risks of Stranglethorn (esp since Form of Rage is not guaranteed to proc) - As they say, with Risk, sometimes comes Loss.
 
[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing
[X] Keep Up Momentum

Writing my own reaction have given me a huge appreciation for how much effort people like Orm and Unelemental are putting into making them. Thanks for all the hard work, guys!
 
> Wakes up to Stragglers winning
Ok, not too bad. We don't get Arete, but we explore some more and become stronger for a reasonable amount of risk.
> Knights are organizing
Because of fucking course they are, we can't have nice things. Well, it could be worse, and hopefully they won't tell all the other monsters about us. Besides, tactics only help them if our growth doesn't outpace the bastards!
> Boss monster
Why the fuck do you even need Apocrypha, Hunger
> Choices
I think I need some time to recover from the shiny overdose.

But for now

[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)

-[X] Zweihander
[X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber

The best defense is a good offense! Except when we don't want to get hit. Pah, as if that is ever going to happen.

It also regrows our arm! I miss our arm, it was pretty handy for a lot of stuff. Did you consider that it might be the prerequisite to the mighty combo of 'carry Gisena in one arm as a shield, have the other strike with Forebear's fury'?!
 
-5 STR, -8 CON, +6.4 AGI. If AGI is ~2x a stat, then Stranglethorn is only ahead by ~0.2 stats. It's also worse during our shadowform (right now), where a pure echoes build would be ahead by like 1~2 stats.
Without accounting for the Rank increase or the unknown but probably important Establishment.

People have been willing to do some rather insane things for Rank before.

Anyway, I don't think I actually convince many people so I think I'm gonna stop.

At least consider Stranglethorn + Vanguard. It gets us two people, both with superb Con and adequate defense, and puts our Str high enough to actually be closer to mid-level for the dungeon, as well as incentivizing future Echo purchases, for people who like Echo.
 
[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)

-[X] Zweihander
[X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber
 
It also regrows our arm! I miss our arm, it was pretty handy for a lot of stuff. Did you consider that it might be the prerequisite to the mighty combo of 'carry Gisena in one arm as a shield, have the other strike with Forebear's fury'?!
Ah, but we can have Gisena act as a self-propelled shield if we take Strangletorn + Vanguard! It's perfect!
 
[X] Yes, Obviously.
[X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing (7 Arete, 3 picks)
-[X] Sharp of Eye
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber


That? That was too fucking close. Time to peace out and regroup, come back later. If it turns out we can't leave, that's something we need to know ASAP.
 
This is broken down by block, which does some weird things.

Anyway, if your taking either of the Forebear's Blade options please make sure you choose the secondary pick.
Adhoc vote count started by Byzantine on Jun 7, 2020 at 2:03 AM, finished with 163 posts and 30 votes.
 
Current vote count?

Interesting how so many voters are going all-in on offense or defense! I suppose that's the nature of this vote, but don't discount Echoes-based options! You could get something like Echo + Rank + Thousand Cuts and have a fairly balanced distribution of offense, defense, and utility from Rank! It's simple but effective!
 
[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing
-[X] Sharp of Eye
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber
- You got lucky. Now stop gambling. Besides, you want to show Gisena your cool new... whatever.

It's late and I'm tired, I'll come up with arguments in favor of this later or something (Fuck yeah, depth perception!). In the mean time, voting for visibility.
 
[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear x1
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear x2
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear x3
[X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber

If I've copied the syntax of the quest correctly, the echoes (1 from "Obviously" plus 3 picks) provide a net 4+ boost to combat stats:
++++STR, ++++CON, ++++AGI

Then Thousand cuts applies cursed wounds to every sword slash, and Fell-Handed Stroke gets 7x faster and 7x stronger with the new option of being used at range.

While we're talking about multiplicative bonuses, an effective 28+s STR and 28+s AGI applied to Fell-Handed Stroke seem like they need to be explicitly rejected by voters thinking about the new shiny long-term options.
 
So just a question, but what are people expecting to get out of Dreadnought right now? I'll note that other than the eye gain - which I do want - If we get Vanguard Gisena will be tankier than the amount Dreadnaught increases our tanking by. Particularly if we get stranglethorn.

If we get Stranglethorn and Vanguard Gisena will have... 16+16+48 Con.

...Gisena will literally have 80 Con!

...I had to get a calculator to double check it was so ridiculous.
 
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