Nah, i'm just very amused that "u-uh this 7AP combat option is now actually worthless outside of specific situations so one of these two builds that have exact same amount of combat stats would preform drastically worse" is a hill you decided to die on.

You could just admit that Cut was objectively the best build, you know. :V
Except they didn't have same stats? On constitution alone MP had ++ more than the Barest Cut.

Edit: That was part of the reason I was harping on you, the MP combo actually made Thousand Cut work increadibly well.

Fall of blade also made wind blades less tiring.
 
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Undying Vanguard + Look for Others could be a decent build, with us finding mooks allies we then empower, but I'd need to know more about how hard/easy it is to add or remove companions, and how effective it is on distrusting strangers.

Loyalty would be a big issue, yeah.

Anyway, this place is big. I have a sinking feeling that we might not be able to clear out the relevant plot threads it holds within what, twelve days of Apocryphal mitigation remaining?

You must use the power of the Infinity Singularity Husk...

+2 picks, and +5% bonus. However, this is risky enough that it has good odds of making us Rage. We'll need to consider whether the Arete loss and Tired are worth it over Stragglers.

You could (imperfectly) trade 2 Arete for those picks via Swift As Death. Might still Rage, of course, but it's significantly less likely.

+1 Arete, which generally seems to be worth somewhat less than +1 pick, but very low risk. Probably not worth taking?

Perhaps you guys should look towards mitigating risk while in here!

Minor bonus to Intimidate if we pick Look or roll such an encounter, less likely to be forced into Second Stage or Rage. Strongest synergy with Vanguard if we get to that much Arete.

It's actually a fairly significant bonus to Charisma!

It's a substantial buff, but it sounds like it's mostly damage besides the mention of dodging after killing 100. I just think if we're going to go Vanquish we need to go one of the Arete builds, or risk blowing Rage form early.

It's an effectiveness boost as well.

Nah, i'm just very amused that "u-uh this 7AP combat option is now actually worthless outside of specific situations so one of these two builds that have exact same amount of combat stats would preform drastically worse" is a hill you decided to die on.

I understand you're salty, but there's no need to put words into others' mouths! Why don't you look at the initial quote one more time? Or perhaps someone else here can explain it to you?
 
Hm... the currently highest combo is Vanquish + Brute Force. That's probably not a level of risk you guys are comfortable with!

Though you did come to the Temple, so...
 
Except they didn't have same stats? On constitution alone MP had ++ more than the Barest Cut.

Edit: That was part of the reason I was harping on you, the MP combo actually made Thousand Cut work increadibly well.
This is about Vanquisher vs Cut. Despite having same amount of stats(Vanquisher had 2 in Con while Cut had 1 in Agi/Str) apparently Cut would somehow do drastically worse in this encounter despite having Thousand Cuts too.
I understand you're salty, but there's no need to put words into others' mouths! Why don't you look at the initial quote one more time? Or perhaps someone else here can explain it to you?
I'm not salty tho? This update validate my plan, which is fine for me, I understand that I can't force people to vote for shit.

I just find mental gymnastics required to convince oneself that Cut is not super good here very funny, is all.
 
[X] Peerless Shroud
[X] Pick off Stragglers

Swapping vote onto Peerless Shroud because it still has synergy with Form of Rage, makes us nearly impossible to kill (always a plus), and in the event that Vanquish wins it's much safer then Brute Force (as much as I like Brute Force). If Stragglers takes a significant lead I can be convinced to go back to Brute Force.
 
Man this would combo pretty well with the Scent tracking ability.

Only if enough enemies of that type actually exist in decent enough proximity... on the other hand, targeting something that's powerful but manufactured in numbers would be good as well, such as Armor Prototypes or battleships during a war!

This is about Vanquisher vs Cut. Despite having same amount of stats(Vanquisher had 2 in Con while Cut had 1 in Agi/Str) apparently Cut would somehow do drastically worse in this encounter despite having Thousand Cuts too.

I'm not salty tho? This update validate my plan, which is fine for me, I understand that I can't force people to vote for shit.

I just find mental gymnastics required to convince oneself that Cut is not super good here very funny, is all.

Sounds like someone does need to read the initial quote again!

You can't claim the Praxis voters didn't put in a good effort.

What's this got to do with the Praxis?

[X] Peerless Shroud
[X] Pick off Stragglers

Swapping vote onto Peerless Shroud because it still has synergy with Form of Rage, makes us nearly impossible to kill (always a plus), and in the event that Vanquish wins it's much safer then Brute Force (as much as I like Brute Force). If Stragglers takes a significant lead I can be convinced to go back to Brute Force.

I am surprised that Vanquish got off to the lead it did, with Brute Force also leading. Wouldn't it make sense to take more immediate power if going for something that risky?
 
He grimaced. The thought of it reminded him too much of his final blow against the Tyrant, an uttermost exertion of the self. The consequences of its use should not be quite as severe, but... he would use it only as a last resort. Only if all else failed.

From a character point of view, this surprises me very little.

Discontentedly he surveyed its remains. Fresh power surged within him from the ring, but he could not bring himself to be pleased with what had just occurred. The monster-knight had been his superior in strength and speed, though only by a modest margin. What rankled was that it had forced him into his wraith form so easily, and its was only that form's superior agility that had carried the day. Had he been a being of flesh alone, this would likely have been the end.

What can I say but lmao.

I'm becoming concerned with the ease with which Hunger leaves the flesh behind. Chill of the Grave indeed....

It turns out that, though we now do have Rage as a second backup, in base form we have neither offensive nor defensive supremacy against even the low-tier mobs of the Temple. So this next pick is pretty necessary to avoid disaster. I'm going to lay out my full thoughts below. (Does this count as a fanwork?? OR just a very, very extensive argument with myself?)


Options Analysis, Strategy

-Stragglers: Good, even relatively "safe" with the correct power upgrades. Allows us to gather info about other mobs.

-Vanquish: Was my first instinct, but that's just chasing a purposeful Rage proc for an extra XP, given that I feel even the best combination of power gains here won't immunize us that much against the knights. We are already, due to shitty base stats, going to have to use Form of Rage at some point, which comes with becoming Tired and losing Arete at best. I Do Not Want to become Exhausted and give up 2 Arete so easily in this Temple. That sounds like a goddamn nightmare.

-Wait: I do not think this is a good idea, and believe that it should only be taken if we want to backsies and try again with Gisena and Vanguard. Probably gives Arete because otherwise it's incredibly silly. We came here for a good reason: power. Commit to it.

-Look: Calling a group weaker than us means that Tyrant isn't intrinsically awful. And it is possible to buff them a little bit if we charmed them a bit and took Vanguard. But overall, it's a weak play and what I would call a "bad idea". People weaker than us, even specialists with useful knowledge, are a huge drag in a place like this. I'm willing to carry someone we care about, like Gisena, but I'm not willing to risk my life protecting some randos that we'll have to massively outscale anyways. And we don't want to meet people stronger than us, because they're a danger and might interfere.

We need to be building power, so Wait and Look are both bad ideas. Vanquish will proc Rage with a high level of certainty, which gives us an extra XP if we survive but makes us Tired and takes away Arete/Advancements. Now, normally I would say that basically trading an Arete or a single past XP for a 3/4 XP options is a steal, but the cost of becoming Tired is committing us to a bad position early on, and an especially bad one when we likely end up using Rage a second time later on, which will happen even with a 3/4 pick of XP options given how bad we were against low tier mobs here. Plus I'm against it on a characterization level, especially with Hunger's feelings that he mentions in the chapter. Gotta be Stragglers, which is safer but still pursues the snowballing effect.

[X] Pick Off Stragglers


Options Analysis, Power

-Force: Stronk. ++Might, ++Agility. Pure stats is actually a decent offensive option here. It's just simple, clean utility, like a good bowl of cereal.

-Shroud: ++Protection, +Charisma, expands Evening Sky to have magic resistance. A defensive option, offers strong coverage against the Knights and other magical attack, which different strong
er mobs will surely have. Luscious but narrower utility, like a nicely baked piece of King Salmon.

-Knell: An offensive option that is really good as far as grinding Temple for XP goes, but might be substantially worse outside it, given that our more challenging fights seem to be 1v1s. Also doesn't handle single boss monsters well. I think this can be disregarded, as it has only transitory utility. Pop Rocks.

-Swift: Doesn't improve base stats, but a massive +++++Agility, +Willpower, way better healing, and better phasing in second form (though sadly it still takes a day to regenerate the stock, otherwise this would be obviously better than everything else). Fun and helpful, but better in specific circumstances. A fruit bowl.

-Undying Vanguard: I'm not sure what the stats on this are after subtracting Echo. I think it's probably +Might, +Agility? Maybe a +Con? Those stats are not worth the Arete, and the rest of the effect is something we can barely use without taking a highly undesirable strategic route. Puts us into Arete debt, which is bad when we are definitely going to have to use Rage at least once. A strong no from ya boy, inedible.

Vanguard is unusable thanks to being completely fucking unsuitable for this situation and costing too much Arete. Knell is only worthwhile because it handles general effectiveness, but in our normal circumstances it sucks, because it fails against 1v1s and therefore boss fights, which is where we generally need to watch ourselves, even if common mobs are our immediate challenge. Remember, normal stats kill common mobs just as well as special damage, but you can use them for other things. Force is good for the beginning of an offensive snowball, but it's a bit risky. Shroud is absolutely premium defense, and will help us in general, but doesn't help our lack of offensive power right now. I mean, if we pick Stragglers it's risky because it means we're on a clock where we'll have to play wear-down against these enemies who will absolutely purposefully group up or run away on us. If we pick Vanquish it's not any more risky, since we'll definitely proc Rage, but might make us safer when we're inevitably exhausted. Swift is extremely good right now, and pretty useful in general, but it has the same problem where it allows us to weather assault but not finish them. I don't want to play a game where we can't snowball against the dungeon because we're constantly having to run away mid-fight. Though Swift lets us run away really, really well whenever we get our ghost ejected in the future, which is hyper-valuable seeing how often it happens, even if it doesn't improve our base stats like Shroud.

I think it has to be Force. It's the only option that covers both offensive and defensive improvement, both of which we really need, and is better with Stragglers. I think Shroud is better with Vanquish because of it protecting us even without second form as a fallback, but Vanquish is a bad option anyways. If we get the option to pick Swift later I will absolutely hop on it ASAP. Super good pick for us, just not what is needed at this exact moment.

[X] Brute Force

My intuition is that this vote will be a struggle between people taking Vanquish and others pointing out how unnecessarily risky it is. Because Vanquisher won, people will now want to slam their hand on the "Nut" button that is Form of Rage so that they can blow their load, and it'll be very difficult, if not impossible, to convince them it's a bad idea. I've been typing this since the update went up, though, so I still have to read through everyone else's posts.
 
What's this got to do with the Praxis?
Despite the mythos being built up over a few quests, we still don't know that much about the Accursed. We know he might be Odyssial (I don't think you've ever confirmed that), and the ISH was the tool/working/achievement Odyssial was going to create/use to make a better world. The only things we know that the Accursed has made are the Praxis, and (maybe?) the infinite potential Progression system, so if the ISH is something the Accursed (=Odyssial?) has made, those are the only two known candidates. It could be something else entirely (the reason whoever cursed the Accursed did so, maybe?) but we don't have much to work with, hints-wise.

Of course, I may be forgetting some bit of lore.
 
Swift as Death is pretty nice in that it makes your Second Stage legitimately stronger instead of "better at some things, worse than others." Would potentially filter a large number of enemies that might otherwise be able to trigger the Form of Rage...
 
In this case, I think speed is key. The entire purpose of coming here is to become swole, and we have a limited amount of time in which to do that before Apocryphal can fuck with us again.

As such, I'll vote for:

[x] Swift as Death [2 Arete]
[x] Vanquish The Pursuers

Based on Rihaku's comments, Swift as Death has significant odds of succeeding at Vanquish without even popping Rage. Assuming that's the case, then with this approach we can pick up some tasty upgrades, and then go ham with farming afterwards, since we're fast as heck and can easily heal between encounters.

Basically, this build has excellent odds of building up momentum, and when a Progression Type Cursebearer gets momentum going in a dungeon, that dungeon goes down.

And even if we do get unlucky, there's no real risk of death, we still win the fight thanks to Rage picking off the remaining knights, get our picks to get stronger, and then rest for the day to lose Tired and try to get the momentum going again tomorrow.
 
My issue with Pick Off the Stragglers is how reactive it is and how much time it takes. If we're to defeat this place, we have to be proactive about what we do. +++Echo isn't going to solve that but having some level of intel on this place might. If nothing else, we'll get the know how to survive in here and the kind of monsters that might be around. That would let us more safely grind against the mooks until we're ready to move on to the next tier of opponents.

[X] Peerless Shroud
[X] Look for Others


Peerless Shroud helps with this by buffing our Charisma while giving us ++Protection and making us more resistant to whatever we find in this place. And sure, they might not be as strong as us but if they have buffs and debuffs, they could serve as very effective force multipliers.

Swift as Death is pretty nice in that it makes your Second Stage legitimately stronger instead of "better at some things, worse than others." Would potentially filter a large number of enemies that might otherwise be able to trigger the Form of Rage...

Hmm. Is there any level of synergy between Second Stage and Picking Them Off? I imagine the massively increased speed and improved phasing would make it a lot easier to move around and avoid enemies. Could that lessen the time we need to take to do it or otherwise improve the efficiency of that assassination so long as we stayed in that form?

The only things we know that the Accursed has made are the Praxis, and (maybe?) the infinite potential Progression system, so if the ISH is something the Accursed (=Odyssial?) has made, those are the only two known candidates. It could be something else entirely (the reason whoever cursed the Accursed did so, maybe?) but we don't have much to work with, hints-wise.
The issue is that some are thinking of exponentiation only in the first value.

It would be more correct to say that the level system abstracts exponentiation across the entire gamut of conceptual escalation. For example, in the Nasuverse there is "raw physical power," and "conceptual power." In Exalted there might be physical, conceptual, and perfected power. A Cursebearer's progression represents higher levels of power first in the physical realm, then the conceptual, then the realm beyond, then the realm beyond that, and so on and so forth... that would be "2nd derivative" of escalation. Then there is the "3rd derivative" of escalation whereby the rate at which additional realms are breached accelerates with level density. Then the 4th derivative, etc... it might be called an infinite singularity husk of sorts.

We more or less know what the Infinite Singularity Husk is.
 
Yo, hear me out. We basically surmised that 2 Arete = one Pick. If we spend 2 Arete for two picks, that's basically 100% profit! We are here so we can grow in power. Therefore, it's a good idea to actually pick the options that have that drastic increase in power. So:

[X] Peerless Shroud
[x] Vanquish The Pursuers

I'd be fine with Swift as Death winning, but I think Iridescence would be more useful against more enemy types. I'd also be fine with Stragglers plus Brute Force. I just think that pushing forwards right now is absolutely critical.
 
Alright, but this is surely the last time I change my vote! Though that unique Knell plus Stragglers combo sounds nice too...

[X] Peerless Shroud
[x] Vanquish The Pursuers
 
[X] Brute Force
[X] Vanquish The Pursuers


Double Strength, Agility and Constitution is good. Tripling that when we inevitably hit Rage is God.

All for the meager cost of what, 1 pick or 1 Arete? Pfffff, Vanquish gives us 2 free picks by default and we have 4.25 Arete right now. Literally no downsides.
 
The Praxis is Odyssial's sword - Protection and killing. Swords and shields don't do anything for healing! Except in scalpel/surgery analogue I guess.

Progression is more like the ISH, really.
 
Well, there is another strategy to consider... You do have Form of Rage now, so if you meditate and get the Arete, you'd be close to 7. Then if you fight something that can yield 7-Arete options, and win via Form of Rage, you'd be significantly better off than when you started. That might be a more productive Form of Rage proc than you might otherwise get.

It's important to plan your strategy in the context of your abilities! Peerless Shroud is safer but potentially less profitable than Swift as Death, Brute Force is very generally applicable but doesn't yield as much effectiveness as the 2-Arete options do against these specific foes, and so on. Momentum in the short-term may not be as important as optimizing your Rage proc when it does happen, since I imagine you guys won't be much willing to continue adventuring that day after your first Form of Rage is used.
 
That... could've gone worse. Which isn't to say it went well, because triggering Second Stage on a single mook is not a good look. We have to wait if we want to return our human form, limiting our effective health.

[X] Vanquish The Pursuers
[X] Swift as Death
[2 Arete]

Swift effectively breaks even on picks and lets us recover between fights, exploiting our increased constitution. Plus, we saw how useful agility was against the first knight. This or Knell would be best for Vanquish, but Knell kneecaps us against the first boss we encounter, assuming we haven't just finished off a string of similar enemies. I'm partial to Peerless Shroud too, but the massive agility bonus is useful for both attack and defense. With Swift, we can disengage easily if we overextend and bring down enemies without as much blade-wind spam. The willpower bonus in phase two also helps to ensure stage three'll trigger, but we absolutely want to avoid that for as long as possible.
 
Another aspect of the overall situation to consider - do you guys really want to do something as risky as Vanquishing when you don't know the logistics of the door situation yet? If you can withdaw every day to rest it's different than if you're stuck inside here until you clear the entire "dungeon." What if killing all these knights draws something worse than knights, something that can follow you to the antechamber?

[X] Brute Force
[X] Vanquish The Pursuers


Double Strength, Agility and Constitution is good. Tripling that when we inevitably hit Rage is God.

All for the meager cost of what, 1 pick or 1 Arete? Pfffff, Vanquish gives us 2 free picks by default and we have 4.25 Arete right now. Literally no downsides.

If you only take Brute Force, there's a substantial chance that Vanquish will force you to enter Form of Rage early, wasting the proc against unworthy foes... remember, it makes you Tired as well!

Alright, but this is surely the last time I change my vote! Though that unique Knell plus Stragglers combo sounds nice too...

[X] Peerless Shroud
[x] Vanquish The Pursuers

Well, it's safer than taking Brute Force with that option at least!
 
Choosing the mostly reasonable combination of options isn't hard. When you are choosing to take an risky action, than it's almost always best to vote for the shiny that gives you maximum power now. If the action is safe-ish, than its OK to save our quest points for later.

Vanguish + Brute force is neither of those so...
 
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Hey guys? Are you seriously thinking about spending an Arete and risking Tiredness in the dungeon for two measley picks? Quick question, what the fuck are you smoking? That's literally worse than Picking Off Stragglers, which is at least safer despite having the same net gain. At the very least choose Swift As Death for some immediate power instead of Brute Force. That would give us a chance to escape if nothing else. But trying to fight 12 of these roughly equal guys without that is going to guarantee a bad trade for our Form.

@Byzantine, I'll cop to it, you were right about what this would do to our decision making.
Rihaku does not write trap options, but we nonetheless endeavour to create then..

Stay and Hope, people! It gains 1 Arete, lets us heal, doesn't proc Rage, and lets us prep for a bigger gain down the road. These knights are very much not worth proccing Form of Rage for. Brute Force is a very strong generalist option, provided we don't do something foolish in the meantime.
 
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