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A Simple Transaction I

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Wow, the sheer slander.

I'm kind of salty that we were given the choice of the Praxis again, but Freedom has absolutely no need of it nor has a compelling reason to want to take it given his experiences and Vengeance makes Sword unoptimal for survival. Just, so much salt.

There's a wisdom to giving up, I'm sure, but seeing all the sacrifices made for this world be rendered useless thanks to the whims of a higher power just galls. I just don't want to let them get away with it. But King's Scepter is basically a copy of what we chose in the original and Regalia is just so unfocused and its best feature requires we fuck up on the way. They are just so much less interesting.

So, even if it's risky, I want to grasp it. I want to defeat the hidden masters using the dream of a fair universe. Because I think it would be thematically fitting. Because I want to see the Praxis used by a Progression-type. I know it's kind of selfish given quests are a collective experience, and this choice risks closing the playground for everyone.

But the most entertaining parts for me in a Rihaku quest comes form being on the back foot and struggling to survive. For me, having to do that is not a drawback per se, I think it would be interesting.

That's basically the most honest argument I can give for Vendetta+Sword, really. I just think it's the quest I'd most like to play, despite everything.
 
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[X] Dread but Dreaming
-[X] Keep the Plenary Brand

I'm really, deeply interested in learning more about the Praxis.

Stop teasing us, Rihaku! Give us that sweet, sweet lore!
 
Rihaku said:
Hm, really? Slumber as purpose? I wouldn't have expected that from someone who so dislikes Arthur.
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By this I meant that power's nothing without purpose. Say Vendetta wins, threads the needle through the insane gauntlet of probability that is picking it Vengeance + Sword, and eventually kills the hidden masters. What's left? Where does he go, if not to a deserved rest? That would be one trajectory for your typical Avenger, though not realistic for someone with both the Apocryphal Curse and Indenture. This short circuits that counterfactual character arc. Slumber's not purpose, it's the absence of it, the blank slate that we impose ours on.

Anyway, the Forsaken Mask seems lacking in the plot department. Both forms of Vendetta have a strong narrative backbone in the form of being Baenlixnaire; Dread but Dreaming has shades of Arthur's more interesting elements in the form of PTSD, but is essentially a canvas awaiting the brush. We determine where he goes from here; the world he was conscripted to save's been left behind and its baggage with it. And speaking of baggage...

To say I'm leery of committing to a woman who we know nothing of is an understatement. But to think that our wife's not even a valid target for the Doom of Lunacy... what's she good for? The obsession letting us unveil our true might would've dovetailed nicely with existing sentiments, compounding his overprotective tendencies. This way we've got to inject a fourth wheel into the family to access the vast majority of our power. At best it's awkward; at worst it wrecks his retirement. As they say, more than one waifu will ruin your laifu. And here I was hoping for the Brand of the Chaste!

The retired hero's a well-worn trope. It has its place, but that place is not as the protagonist. While the hero may feel his journey's done, we've only just begun accompanying him on it. As a Combat-type with no motivation to grow or avenue for doing so, reliant on innate power he can't productively access, it's by far the weakest option. The build votes promised by Progression can at times be taxing, but this goes way too far in the other direction, relying almost entirely on inferential power (the defensive True Wish, going mask-off Lunatic) and intimidation tactics to resolve conflicts. The chances of us qualifying for a proactive True Wish in such a setup are realistically nil. It burns through the Lesser and Least Wishes right out of the starting gate, essentially costing us our entire Primary Remittance for social benefits.
 
DkArthas said:
Well, I like all of the options except for Vendetta + Sword. It's simply too damned shortsighted and makes no sense. Why wouldn't the Hero choose to have some real power now when he needs it the most, rather than choosing some long term potential mystery box that he might not even need for revenge and that increases his chances of dying early and thus wasting this undreamt of chance?
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Hero doesn't need power "now". Fact that he will get in danger due to lack of immediate power is wholly OOC information Hero is simply not privy to.

So yeah, Rihaku pretty much stated that he would just PK us if we took Vengeance and Praxis, so, at this point, it's the question of quest I want to play versus the thing we had been teased so far. It's shitty fucking choice, because Praxis also has nothing to do with Freedom either, so it's just there for lulz i guess. Seriously, picking Praxes over Wishes is just wrong.

I guess i prefer playing the interesting quest more than finding about Praxis:

[X] Vendetta
-[X] Remittance: The King's

Feels fucking bad ngl

Same argument applies here - issue with any kind of Freedom build is that assholes behind the scenes don't get punished for their bullshit and are free to fuck with other people too. Fuck them, we are the consequences and we are coming for them.
 
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I'm not interested in the dynamic of Doom of Lunacy and Champion's Brand, I'm against the characterization for Decimator's Affliction. Going to stay with


[X] Dread but Dreaming
-[X] Drop the Plenary Brand, removing the risk of it exposing your Curse-related weaknesses.

Upon the hidden fane
In the dark, the beast lies,
Sleeping.
 
Orm Embar said:
By this I meant that power's nothing without purpose. Say Vendetta wins, threads the needle through the insane gauntlet of probability that is picking it Vengeance + Sword, and eventually kills the hidden masters. What's left? Where does he go, if not to a deserved rest?
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Hm... I imagine the kind of being that would triumph in Vendetta could have their horizons opened to enormous swathes of possibility. What did Odyssial do after the Titans were bound and slain?

Wolfy said:
So yeah, Rihaku pretty much stated that he would just PK us if we took Vengeance and Praxis, so, at this point, it's the question of quest I want to play versus the thing we had been teased so far. It's shitty fucking choice, because Praxis also has nothing to do with Freedom either, so it's just there for lulz i guess. Seriously, picking this over Wishes is just wrong.
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Hey, I said there was a between 33 and 66% chance of PKing you! Even if it happens, it'll certainly be a memorable experience, and unique too.

Wolfy said:
Hero doesn't need power "now". Fact that he will get in danger due to lack of immediate power is wholly OOC information Hero is simply not privy to.
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He's aware that the Geas invites danger and the Apocryphal Curse more so. Immediate power is certainly a consideration in his decision-making process. To what degree, depends on the choice that wins.

DarkSideBard said:
I'm not interested in the dynamic of Doom of Lunacy and Champion's Brand, I'm against the characterization for Decimator's Affliction. Going to stay with
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I think you guys are fearing the Champion's Brand a bit too much. In many situations it's considerably more functional than the Doom of the Tyrant, and it's not as if you'll be starved of genuine human contact when the naturally immune exist. Plus mitigation!
 
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I felt like working the permutations for Regalia(I'm speculating that Amplitude/Chromatic Aberration from the first quest are Regalia tier, with King's Scepter powers being on a level beyond those):

Permutation A:

2 Bad End Reloads
1 modest but useful Superpower with 2 potential upgrades or other benefits

Permutation B:

1 Bad End Reload
2 modest but useful Superpowers with 2 potential upgrades or other benefits

Permutation C:

1 Bad End Reload
1 modest but useful Superpower with 3 potential upgrades or other benefits
 
Look, if we keep waiting for the perfect time to pick the Praxis, we'll never actually pick it. You just have to accept the risk as the price of admission.

At least, if you don't pick Dreaming and refuse to revive our family for no reason. Just, why? If you are not taking the responsibility of taking the fight to the hidden masters, why pick something completely fucking irrelevant to you and your interests? I don't understand. Why have the Praxis if we don't plan on particularly doing anything with it? Just for the shallow curiosity? I thought people didn't like the fact that EFB was just build votes and Slice-of Life, so why pick Dreaming, the option that literally repeats that. Or Mask, an option that won't even have the build votes..

Pick Vendetta+Sword, it's the most interesting option by far.
 
Orm Embar said:
Anyway, the Forsaken Mask seems lacking in the plot department. Both forms of Vendetta have a strong narrative backbone in the form of being Baenlixnaire; Dread but Dreaming has shades of Arthur's more interesting elements in the form of PTSD, but is essentially a canvas awaiting the brush. We determine where he goes from here; the world he was conscripted to save's been left behind and its baggage with it. And speaking of baggage...
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Honestly I figure that whatever local is going on in the world we end up in would be of enough interest to carry things, fleshed out setting narratives are something Rihaku's never skimped on.
Orm Embar said:
To say I'm leery of committing to a woman who we know nothing of is an understatement. But to think that our wife's not even a valid target for the Doom of Lunacy... what's she good for? The obsession letting us unveil our true might would've dovetailed nicely with existing sentiments, compounding his overprotective tendencies. This way we've got to inject a fourth wheel into the family to access the vast majority of our power. At best it's awkward; at worst it wrecks his retirement. As they say, more than one waifu will ruin your laifu. And here I was hoping for the Brand of the Chaste!
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You never know, we might have a favorite kid given that we'd put in the effort that way.
Orm Embar said:
The retired hero's a well-worn trope. It has its place, but that place is not as the protagonist. While the hero may feel his journey's done, we've only just begun accompanying him on it. As a Combat-type with no motivation to grow or avenue for doing so, reliant on innate power he can't productively access, it's by far the weakest option. The build votes promised by Progression can at times be taxing, but this goes way too far in the other direction, relying almost entirely on inferential power (the defensive True Wish, going mask-off Lunatic) and intimidation tactics to resolve conflicts. The chances of us qualifying for a proactive True Wish in such a setup are realistically nil. It burns through the Lesser and Least Wishes right out of the starting gate, essentially costing us our entire Primary Remittance for social benefits.
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The Retired Hero, at odds with the rest of the world aware of his capabilities that just won't stop poking at him to either take him off the board or suborn his assistance. Or if you prefer, the trope of the nominally retired hero dusting off his skills to protect his family, a pretty decent motivation for a protagonist.

Least wish is used on power that would help protect them, yes, but I wouldn't say gaining a usable super power is just a social benefit.
The ability to recharge Lesser and Least Wishes even if a proactive True is out of planning bounds shouldn't be underestimated either, since a corrosponding leap in power would be tied to a corrosponding leap in requirements. Which in turn works the other way around as well, the leap downwards from 'can laugh at Cthulhu's strongest ' to 'can train for a human lifespan' means that recharging and gaining more super powers, Royal Praxis among them if not immediately, is well within bounds of the feasible.

There's also inherent incentive to recharge the wishes, grow stronger, or gain access to more trainable powers despite being the Combat type. After all Plenary Brand grows stronger slowly, and the fallen Hero thus has incentive to move and work for things lest he render his beloved unable to perceive him.
 
BrainInAJar said:
Look, if we keep waiting for the perfect time to pick the Praxis, we'll never actually pick it. You just have to accept the risk as the price of admission.

At least, if you don't pick Dreaming and refuse to revive our family for no reason. Just, why? If you are not taking the responsibility of taking the fight to the hidden masters, why pick something completely fucking irrelevant to you and your interests? I don't understand. Why have the Praxis if we don't plan on particularly doing anything with it? Just for the shallow curiosity? I thought people didn't like the fact that EFB was just build votes and Slice-of Life, so why pick Dreaming, the option that literally repeats that. Or Mask, an option that won't even have the build votes..

Pick Vendetta+Sword, it's the most interesting option by far.
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To be roaming Democracy Cthulhu? The rest of the point of Dread+Keep is indeed maximizing exposure to the Praxis via lesser remittances and the Combat Cursebearer boost to Praxis skill I will concede that at least.

On a tangential note, I remembered a Rihakupost about us getting an extra lesser remittance as a participation bonus(A Simple Transaction I Original).

So the upgrade prospects are like this:

Dread+Keep: 5 Lesser Remittances
Balance(2 Lesser Remittance, 1 Superpower, 1 Bad End Reload Permutation): 4 Lesser Remittances
Balance(2 Bad End Reload, 1 Superpower, 1 Lesser Remittance Permutation): 3 Lesser Remittances
Balance(2 Superpower, 1 Bad End Reload, 1 Lesser Remittance Permutation): 3 Lesser Remittances
Dread+Drop: 2 Lesser Remittances
Forsaken Mask: 2 Lesser Remittances
Vendetta+Sword: 2 Lesser Remittances
Vendetta+Kings: 2 Lesser Remittances
 
BrainInAJar said:
Look, if we keep waiting for the perfect time to pick the Praxis, we'll never actually pick it. You just have to accept the risk as the price of admission.

At least, if you don't pick Dreaming and refuse to revive our family for no reason. Just, why? If you are not taking the responsibility of taking the fight to the hidden masters, why pick something completely fucking irrelevant to you and your interests? I don't understand. Why have the Praxis if we don't plan on particularly doing anything with it? Just for the shallow curiosity? I thought people didn't like the fact that EFB was just build votes and Slice-of Life, so why pick Dreaming, the option that literally repeats that. Or Mask, an option that won't even have the build votes..

Pick Vendetta+Sword, it's the most interesting option by far.
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Dreaming gives safety and the power to change worlds; of course that's relevant to the hero's interests.
 
The problem with saying that Plenary Brand will incentivise Mask to progress is that an incentive to get stronger and an incentive to interact with the World are different things. Geas of Indenture guarantees the latter, while Mask only needs to interact with the world to recharge his wishes, something that might not be necessary for long stretches of time. We will have a pretty slow paced interaction with the world thanks to that; it's not like we need to stockpile wishes.
George said:
Dreaming gives safety and the power to change worlds; of course that's relevant to the hero's interests.
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Rihaku said:
But even if it's what they would have wanted, would it not be even better to have - them - back?
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It seems the Hero disagrees with you.
Conjured Blade said:
To be roaming Democracy Cthulhu? The rest of the point of Dread+Keep is indeed maximizing exposure to the Praxis via lesser remittances and the Combat Cursebearer boost to Praxis skill.
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But why? Again, they would have wanted a better world, but we would be literally abandoning the world they wanted to be better. What, would we only fight for our friends when it's not too much of a bother? Dreaming is just so hypocritical. It just seems shallow curiosity for the Praxis.
 
[X] The Forsaken Mask

Dead But Dreaming is a close second, because Orm is kinda right in there being a lot more inbuilt plothooks there and it at least still gives me a lot the weird situation we haven't really been in before, that I like about this one, but I'm kinda content with giving comfiness a shot?
I'm interested to see where the directionlessness goes, I'm weirdly excited to see a variant of Pay to Win get used, I'm curious about the black box waifu and I have this very vague hope that asking the Accursed to grant our wishes means we get to see the Accursed like once or twice more.
 
[X] Dread but Dreaming
-[X] Keep the Plenary Brand

My goals for this quest are as follows:
0. (free space) argue about builds
1. finally see what the praxis looks like
2. experience another delightful collection of Rihaku's characters and settings
3. meme a lot in thread and receive memes in turn
4. win a vote where we admit our character isn't in the right


As for actual useful discussion, I've seen several claims that the hero would naturally choose the wishes and immediately turn back the clock. I posit that the same man who loved another soldier, and brought her with him to the battlefield, may be willing to forgo her return in the face of yet grander opposition. I do think he obviously wants her back. I also think he's the kind of monstrous will that would put his heartfelt desires aside for a chance to finish the fight.

Essentially, don't underestimate how heartless the hero is.
 
[X] Dread but Dreaming - A force of nature more than a man, but perhaps that is for the best. With power such as this, the dream of a society aligned to his ideals is not so far away. But even if it's what they would have wanted, would it not be even better to have - them - back? Perhaps he recoils from even their memory. To face them would be too much. Sleep beckons, its insensate span anesthetizing the soul. Disturb not he who lies dread but dreaming, for he means you no harm. His task is done, and these long slow eons are not durance, but requiem.
-[X] Keep the Plenary Brand, gaining 3 more Lesser Remittances.
 
Fumbles said:
As for actual useful discussion, I've seen several claims that the hero would naturally choose the wishes and immediately turn back the clock. I posit that the same man who loved another soldier, and brought her with him to the battlefield, may be willing to forgo her return in the face of yet grander opposition. I do think he obviously wants her back. I also think he's the kind of monstrous will that would put his heartfelt desires aside for a chance to finish the fight.
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So why not vote for Vengeance? That's what finishing the fight means. She fought for this world, and we'd be abandoning it forever. This is no way "finishing the fight". It's running away.
 
Rihaku said:
That is something you guys may be able to decide for yourselves! I'm hoping to get options for his native system out tonight, though I don't know if the discussion on this vote will be complete by then. Alternatively I could let both votes run concurrently.
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my preference is to get this vote tied up before starting another
 
Rihaku said:
That is something you guys may be able to decide for yourselves! I'm hoping to get options for his native system out tonight, though I don't know if the discussion on this vote will be complete by then. Alternatively I could let both votes run concurrently.
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this is how we get cultivation back in the setting
 
BrainInAJar said:
The problem with saying that Plenary Brand will incentivise Mask to progress is that an incentive to get stronger and an incentive to interact with the World are different things. Geas of Indenture guarantees the latter, while Mask only needs to interact with the world to recharge his wishes, something that might not be necessary for long stretches of time. We will have a pretty slow paced interaction with the world thanks to that; it's not like we need to stockpile wishes.
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Getting even a single extra Lesser Wish could be spent on a ton of things, including Royal Praxis. Ideally we'd want to always be working towards one anyway, because it's either a non-Imperial Praxis level super power or it's at worst comes to worst insurance for our loved ones and at best a century or so of extra progression in order to better protect them. If you can become 4 times as stronger or stronger given a century to power level a system, that that basically resets the clock on Lunacy. 3/4 of your power sealed away? Need to become the hulk and endanger your loved ones to use your full might? Nope, exchange a one time 'become 4 times as stronger' potential in exchange for basically an obviated curse, with an even stronger super form hulk if worst comes to truly worst.
Basically we would need any power system, lesser remittance, or similar where a century of practice and training lets you bowl over things four times as good as year one version would.
 
Talace said:
this is how we get cultivation back in the setting
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If our hero was from a cultivation universe then no wonder he failed. Pretty sure the ideals he wanted to happen is near impossible in a xianxia setting. Like, most of the time xianxia settings are where democracy dies in fire.
 
[X] Vendetta
-[X] Remittance: The Sword

I really can't sympathize with the people voting for Forsaken Mask - while just going on and living a peaceful life with our wife and kid may be attractive from a character perspective, it seems like it would just be an incredibly boring quest. We literally have no IC motivation to do anything but chill with our family if we take that option, where does the quest even go from there?
 
Bilbo Baggins said:
[X] Vendetta
-[X] Remittance: The Sword

I really can't sympathize with the people voting for Forsaken Mask - while just going on and living a peaceful life with our wife and kid may be attractive from a character perspective, it seems like it would just be an incredibly boring quest. We literally have no IC motivation to do anything but chill with our family if we take that option, where does the quest even go from there?
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Searching for mitigation methods for Plenary Brand and dealing with people trying to suborn or kill us out of fear of our full power? Or figuring out what appeals for help to take if any?
 
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