The change of EMIYA, Mordred, and Artoria are kinda what I meant: They're the culmination of their stories... right before they die. It's a bit frustrating to not have the answer to a problem that's apparently always existed now. Not to mention the goal to Medb reigning in her lusts is rather fraught with possibilities for failure.

I'll just point out that in two of those three cases they didn't die. Mordred died, but came to her revelation during the fight. If she'd won that battle, gone on to win the grail, and had a happily ever after, it would have been just as valid.

As for EMIYA and Arturia, both of them continued after their realizations through their grail war, and only vanished at the end due to lack of Mana sustaining them. That's not death, that's just 'I must go', and in the UBW Good End Arturia even gets to follow through with her Revelation and live her life with Rin and Shirou.

Citing them as ways that such a change in a Heroic Spirit must result in death is sort of dishonest no?

EDIT: I mean... This quest takes place in a UBW Good End timeline! Shirou and Arturia's changes are canon to this specific frame of reference!
 
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You guys forget the Brie is basically a newborn with all the moral quagmire that entails with that sapience,and she had to gain this newfound morality in the middle of a Grail War where the players have already hardened themselves to sacrifices.

Brie isn't hardened. At all. Up to now, Brie was lucky to face opponents who were relatively nice (Hans, Master of Caster, etc) or people who you don't feel bad when their faces gets caved in, and she's been pretty good at minimising casualties on her own side thanks to early police surveillance. Now, with what Emergency Brie did to Olga and the resultant reaction from their next meeting and the revelation that Rider may have accidentally oopsied a few innocents during her 'patrols' , it's clear that Brie isn't ready to take up the responsibility of eliminating morally ambiguous individuals and her consciousness is taking a beating.

A good long talk on what her priorities should be, how she should feel about the recent incidents and how she should handle her guilt is a long fucking time in the making and not some 'high horse we should get off'.
I...actually disagree. Brie came out of that Bounded Field with a fully developed consciousness, and her values have largely been driven by our choices. Yes, we've done our best to keep collateral damage to a minimum, but one of the first things we did was attempt to rainbow laser Olga Marie into oblivion simply out of practicality. I think it's a bit disingenous to say that Brie simply hasn't examined her actions up until this point. There's been more than one point where Brie has looked back with Medb, wondered if they're the bad guys, and then decided that it really doesn't matter.

You're not wrong that Brie needs some time now to decompress and sort out the guilt of breaking Olga, but I really do think her values are already pretty well set. And well...there's a difference between being "the bad guy", and being a complete monster. Emergency Mode's actions came far too close to the latter for even my liking, and I'm a bit notorious for having very loose morality.
 
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Citing them as ways that such a change in a Heroic Spirit must result in death is sort of dishonest no?
I should've been more clear I was speaking more from Fate's reoccurring narrative logic. Which is similar, but not the same, to an iron-clad cause-effect law. EMIYA and Artoria generally come around on their personal conflicts, but when they both have their revelation, their arc is over and they tend to die. This extends to other Servants, not just Mordred but ones like Jeanne, Chiron, Nero, Altera, etc. Whether that's at the end of the story with a 'happy' ending, the end of a boss battle, or mid-series is not exactly a determining factor. But I will admit that part of the reason any Fate story has rules in the first place is to establish how all involved in one way or another brake them over their knee. There is no 'normal' or 'by the book' in Fate.
 
[X] "Well... For one I'm learning the consequences of my actions. In the worst way possible."

Poor brei, she just wants to survive, she did't sign up for any of this crap.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by AnonymousRabbit on Jan 28, 2020 at 9:46 PM, finished with 40 posts and 19 votes.
 
Turning Point
[] "Well... For one I'm learning the consequences of my actions. In the worst way possible."

She was just going to sit there, isn't she? Medb wasn't going to make her go away given what you've both been through. You could only sit there and let her question echo in your mind. You set aside your coffee can and sighed as your smoke left your lips. Your first Christmas in the world and you're spending it like this. Who'd expect this, huh?

You rubbed your hands and thought about what you were going to say. Well there was a lot of things to be said but you were looking for the right things. You wanted to give her something to help you in...

"Well... For one I'm learning the consequences of my actions," you told her with a patient tone, "In the worst way possible."

Snow continued to fall. You wondered how things could have gone if you chose differently in all of your decisions.

It was cold.

Maybe finding a place to stay wouldn't be the worst idea.

"I see. Experience is a far greater teacher than I could ever be," Scathach finally said as she looked at you, "Then the only thing left to ask you would be... Did you learn from it?"

It reminded you of what Jeanne said before. It was much easier said than done. It was difficult. You would have tried better had you had a clear head but it just blindsided you without warning.

....

No, that's just you making an excuse. You had to give an answer.

"No. Not yet at least," you replied as you let out a shaky breath.

"Then it will happen again, and again, and again until you learn. You have what it takes to get through this," Scathach said as she crossed her arms, "You're simply lost on how to proceed."

"Then tell me how. What do I have to do exactly?" You asked her with a sharp voice, "I broke a person, I made her suffer more than she should have and I feel awful for it! Rider did some things I didn't approve of and it's eating me inside. Everything that I ignored has come to shove itself on my face! It's too much! I can't handle all of it!"

"Then take it one by one, girl," Scathach cut you off with a steely tone, "You don't have to take them all at once. Start with what's important to you and work from there."

"That's easy for you to say when you've done jack shit but hide behind Hans' back!" You snarled right back.

"Brie!" Rider snapped from the side and you froze.

Scathach remained unfazed as she looked down on you then. You felt your blood freeze as you went limp and sighed as you closed your eyes. You let the moment pass as you turned your gaze on the ground while everyone was just quiet.

The Christmas jingle from nearby buildings had echoed to where you three were at the moment. You grimaced as you rubbed your forehead.

"I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that," you managed to say with great difficulty.

Scathach chose to ignore it altogether and say, "Tell me what's important to you now? That girl sitting near you or your own inner turmoil?"

"Of course it's Rider!" You were quick to reply with a sharp tone, "She's more important!"

"Then your first step would be to reconcile. Because if this goes on, your relationship as Master and Servant will deteriorate. It's your greatest strength among all the Masters," Scathach said as she leaned on her bike, "Greater than anyone's, it's obvious that people would seek to break you apart. You wouldn't want that, would you?"

"Of course not!"

"Of course not!"

You and Rider spoke at the same time and that in itself managed to get the Witch of Dun Scaith to smile lightly.

"I will not pretend I know the full story but this child did something she shouldn't have, yes?" Scathach asked you with a raised eyebrow while jabbing a thumb at Medb, "And from my impression, she kept it a secret?"

"Yeah," you admitted with a grim look.

"Then talk about it. If she's truly important to you, you will try and understand her. Why she did it, for what reason, and if you could come in terms with it..." Scathach suggested as she crossed glanced at Rider, "And you, respond to your Master. You're the only who could help her."

"You think I don't know that already?" Medb grumbled as she looked to the side.

"And also, you need to stop being afraid. This girl you're partnered with, she's stronger than you believe. You underestimate her spirit... I couldn't believe how blind you are even when you both defeated Caster together," Scathach said with a hard tone while lecturing Medb, "That moment should have been the part where you acknowledged her strength."

You and Medb were silent as the Legendary Teacher took you both apart. She was right. Both sides were at fault here but that was just one thing. This wedge between you and Rider seemed to grow smaller and smaller the more Scathach talked.

If only you had the chance then maybe you can fix this. You wouldn't have been able to get through this by yourself. Not without damaging your bond with Rider with trial and error. You were lucky this time. There was still so much you didn't know...

"Got it... We'll talk it out," you sighed as you lowered your head.

"And that's only the most important thing to you. What of your inner turmoil?" Scathach asked as she looked at you with a curious look.

"That... You're right. I do know the answer to it. Just being reminded in such a manner caught me off guard," you replied as you let out a shaky breath, "Ruler's given me the talk on that end."

"And you think the Saint's words weigh more than mine?" Scathach asked with a raised eyebrow.

"You're probably not the best person to talk about it," Rider chimed in from the side.

Scathach shook her head as she looked at you, "So what do you plan on doing going forward?"

"Try and survive. I don't know if I can make it up to the people I've wronged but second guessing myself isn't going to do anything," you murmured as you raised your head, "I'll live with what I did. I'm probably not going to be forgiven but going forward, I could be better."

"Easier said than done," Scathach said as she leaned on her bike, "But perhaps you could leave the dreary thoughts out of your mind for now. Tis the season to be jolly... Seeing you two fools so downtrodden is not something for me to take amusement in."

You managed a small smile as you rubbed your knees, "I really can't let this keep me down."

You raised your head and turned to Rider as she winced in surprise upon your gaze, "W-What?"

"I won't let that woman break my trust in you. What you did was wrong and it can't be denied for what it was, but we can be better, right?" You asked her with a serious tone.

Medb stared at you before lowering her head, "But still..."

"Raise your head. Aren't you a Queen?" Scathach barked from the side as she crossed her arms.

Rider glared at the other woman before you moved to her and grabbed her hand, "Hey. You still with me?"

"Even after all that, you'll still latch on to me?" Medb asked you with a shaky voice.

"Sucks to say but the old Lady's not wrong. One thing you can do is making things right by winning this war as fast as we could. This can't continue, Medb. More people are only going to get hurt," you told her as you stood up and pulled her up, "We're finishing this together."

Medb's eyes watered up before she chuckled, "You really got it bad for me, huh?"

"Good. I wouldn't want you fighting Hans with your spirit broken," Scathach said as she put on her helmet and mounted her bike.

You looked at her and asked, "Leaving already?"

"Yes. As you've set I have done... 'jackshit'. I'm going to change that. I have one last battle to fight," Scathach said as she kicked started the engine, "Merry Christmas."

Turning Point
[] "Good luck... And thanks for your advice, Scathach. For everything."
[] "You need some help? I mean, it'll just be an excuse for me to see you in action."
[] "Hey. Don't be a bad example and do anything stupid. You're a teacher after all."
[] Write in...
 
[X] "Hey. Don't be a bad example and do anything stupid. You're a teacher after all."
 
[X] "You need some help? I mean, it'll just be an excuse for me to see you in action."
 
[x] "You need some help? I mean, it'll just be an excuse for me to see you in action."

Hmm. Not sure asking her to not do something will be enough to change her mind, so I'll go with this. Brie's shields are pretty BS after all.
 
... would now be the best/last time to call Jeanne? Because that is, WOG, time sensitive.
 
So I found this on the Discord I go to.



And then there's this.


I see that someone has been bitten by the Medb bug as well. I want to read it... For research purposes.


The Parmesan Cinematic Universe is expanding!
 
Votes closed
Adhoc vote count started by AnonymousRabbit on Jan 29, 2020 at 6:49 AM, finished with 13 posts and 10 votes.
 
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Unfinished Business
[] "You need some help? I mean, it'll just be an excuse for me to see you in action."

Blinking at her words, you couldn't help but frown, "You need some help? I mean, it'll just be an excuse for me to see you in action."

Scathach smirked and replied, "Well I wouldn't want to keep you from your Servant. She likes you a lot, you see."

"Cut it out. You're up to something," Medb said as she narrowed her gaze, "We'll go with you."

"Seems like you decided already. Don't blame me if you die," Scathach replied as she revved her engine, "I have a meeting with an old student of mine."

Your eyes widened at the same time as Medb did. She wasn't kidding, was she? No, this crazy woman wasn't the type to kid around that sort of thing. That only made you a lot more worried than you expected yourself to be.

She was going after Berserker, alone, does she have-

"Of course... Of course you would have a death wish," you murmured as you scowled at her.

"Maybe this is why I'm here. Perhaps this is my chance. If he's in that form, perhaps he can grant my wish," Scathach said as she rested her hand on the handlebars, "I won't know until I try."

"Wait, you're going now? Hold on. Why not just wait until we've all banded together!" Medb said as she walked forward, "Cu-chan's going to rip you to shreds! And he has back up! Even if we do come with you, you'll die!"

"That's the idea, you child," Scathach smirked as she flicked Rider on her forehead. She smiled and said, "He's been summoned once in his prime. But that form wouldn't have been enough, I would have crushed him. But Setanta in his frenzied form? I might just die. I've lived far too long. This could be my only chance."

"There's no telling if it would even work. If you lose and you get captured, there's no telling what's going to happen," you told her with a serious tone, "At least reconsider..."

"Well then..." Scathach murmured as she glanced at you and Rider, "Are you going to try and stop me?"

Unfinished Business
[] "I... No. We can't. The least we could do is talk you out of it. Please, don't do it. At least not now."
[] "Yes. If that's what it'll take we will. You're too strong to allow to die. We might need you."
[] Write in...
 
[] If I beat you up right now, will you join my harem? \<

I don't know, she wants to die, so.
How do we talk her out of it?
 
[X] "I... No. We can't. The least we could do is talk you out of it. Please, don't do it. At least not now."
 
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