- Location
- Staring into the void
Inserted tally
The Practice War [Complete]
- Thread starter Snowfire
- Start date
- Original Sci-Fi
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
...I'm not sure I need to do an explanation, beyond the following:
What you're about to do isn't going to be Speaking, not in the way you've seen it before. It will be saying words and being heard. There is a difference here, and it stands to be surprisingly important.
Outline of currently voted for options in terms of how Amanda sees them in the next few hours.
What you're about to do isn't going to be Speaking, not in the way you've seen it before. It will be saying words and being heard. There is a difference here, and it stands to be surprisingly important.
Outline of currently voted for options in terms of how Amanda sees them in the next few hours.
- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Why
Answers. Full(er) ones, this time.
Answers. Full(er) ones, this time.
Meh. I don't see the Shiplords offering anything worth caring about at this point.
What we want is actionable intel on the Shiplords' bogeymen, whatever it is they're fighting, so we can start preparing to fight them in turn when we're done neutralizing the Shiplords.
In contrast, what we're likely to actually see is the Shiplords talking about their motives, likely being as self-congratulating as the Tribute Fleet was. I'm not sure it's useful to hear that again, especially if all of Humanity is listening in today.
Motives matter too. Especially when you have Insight focused helping staff military intelligence.
And no intelligence is worthless, especially given how we know so little about the Shiplords that we don't even know what they look like under their armor.
Much of what we know about the Shiplords as people is due to Insight-focused concentrating on one short poem by a dying naval officer.
Having them talk while Amanda and the rest of the 223, with both Insight-focused and Harmonials cooperating, listen to their reply is a treasure trove of sapient intelligence waiting to be tapped.
Looking at the surviving Shiplord ToE, one faction is stuck deep inside the Solar Exclusion Zone, with multiple system defense fleets closing in.
Unless Amanda says to let them go, they're probably dead. The other faction is out on the edge of the SEZ and out of range of basically everything other than a Unisonbound FTL jump or an Amanda Practice strike.
- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean... they could slip in the self-congratulating answer some mention of "toughening the galaxy against horrors beyond" or something.
It's the closest option to getting said intel anyway, unless you have a better Word in mind.
Mr.Controll
Lord of the un-nessisary thread bump.
- Location
- The 5th dimention
...Is it just me, or does this call for adding "Humans are Cthulhu" to the tags?
[X] Leave
[X] Leave
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Not yet ...
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
Alright, so I'm going to take some time to run through this as promised - sorry for it being so late, other events conspired to delay me. First of all, I'm going to just block quote all the options that Amanda either doesn't feel will work or won't say. I've deleted a few egregious examples (Run, for one), but this should cover most of them. I'm not going to spend the time to go through them all, I'd like to go to bed at a reasonable time this evening. Most of the block listed below just won't work for this moment, either because of Amanda's mindset or simply "won't work". And I'd rather you didn't waste this vote on one of those.
Something I do want to say again, though, is that Amanda is not about to Speak a Word. That's not the process about to take place.
Moving on, we'll start with the votes of Why and Explain, which are pretty much the same given how Amanda is feeling right now. You will note that the Why vote does not have a question mark on it. This is very deliberate, and why I would merge any votes for Explain into Why as it is currently presented in vote format. Why seems simple, but the direction of it for Amanda right now is telling. Why in this vote isn't general, it isn't asking about some grand plan of the Shiplords, why they do what they do to the galaxy. It's asking why they did what they did right now.
To some people, this might seem like semantics, and you'd have a point in saying so. But the difference, subtle as it might be, is important. @uju32 is very much correct in saying that any reply to her would be hyperanalysed by relevant Potentials both during and after it takes place. She can't be certain she'll get a reply, of course, she isn't Speaking a Word in that way. But just leaving something like that lying doesn't strike her as something that the Shiplords would do. And she's got a good head for them after her encounter.
I've grouped these two together as they're pretty close together in Amanda's mental space. Looking at the Shiplords right now, even with Kalilah seemingly alive and relatively unharmed, there's a significant portion of Amanda that just wants them gone. That doesn't mean dead at this juncture, just...not there anymore. Leave is Amanda telling the Shiplords to remove themselves from humanity's world, but more than that, it's telling them to not come back. That won't stick, she knows that. But given the display of power she's given, how humanity now knows that the Shiplords have weapons that disrupt Practice, and also that the war is about to kick off something fierce? It's not the worst play possible.
It does mean the Regular Fleet gets out with firm intel on you, but at this point, they're going to get that regardless. Amanda thinks it will send a very powerful statement to the Shiplords of what humanity thinks of them, but without committing humanity to anything it hasn't already accepted.
These are opposites, in some ways, but they strike Amanda as two sides to the same coin. She doesn't quite get why, but from her own understanding of the Shiplords from the Second Battle of Sol and more, she believes that offering either of these in what she says could have rather unexpected consequences. To be clear, Forgiveness wouldn't offer it for all the Shiplords have done, in fact it probably wouldn't offer it at all. Amanda isn't capable of that right now, and humanity isn't either. But it could be spoken as part of a wider statement, which is why I'd put these two votes together. They feed into each other in Mandy's head, in a way I can't properly describe, but then...I don't think she can, either.
A risk, yes. But one purely of what reaction it might prompt from the Shiplords. Not humanity.
I almost added this to the list of denied options, but something made me hold onto it. To be clear, Amanda does not believe that any dialogue sufficient to explain things to humanity - if any explanation even exists - could occur here and now. In that way, this vote is one that supports Leave, actually. But it sends a different message than just that, as it carries the implicit willingness to at least listen, if they come willing to talk. It's a hand raised in hope of peace and sanity, with a sword of fire that scoured something in the region of 40% of a Regular fleet from existence in an instant held in the other.
Might it work immediately? Probably not. But if you want to play the long game...
It takes time for the system defence fleets to get there, and pretty much everything since Tactics 3 has taken place in a very short period of time. That fleet could still make it out pretty easily - the system defence fleets were clustered around Mars, and it'll take them a while to get out to where the Regular group is.
Edit: Almost forgot. @Shwaggy did you manage to work out your feelings on the last two updates yet? I'm quite curious as to what my writing elicited.
The Denied said:
Something I do want to say again, though, is that Amanda is not about to Speak a Word. That's not the process about to take place.
The Why said:
Moving on, we'll start with the votes of Why and Explain, which are pretty much the same given how Amanda is feeling right now. You will note that the Why vote does not have a question mark on it. This is very deliberate, and why I would merge any votes for Explain into Why as it is currently presented in vote format. Why seems simple, but the direction of it for Amanda right now is telling. Why in this vote isn't general, it isn't asking about some grand plan of the Shiplords, why they do what they do to the galaxy. It's asking why they did what they did right now.
To some people, this might seem like semantics, and you'd have a point in saying so. But the difference, subtle as it might be, is important. @uju32 is very much correct in saying that any reply to her would be hyperanalysed by relevant Potentials both during and after it takes place. She can't be certain she'll get a reply, of course, she isn't Speaking a Word in that way. But just leaving something like that lying doesn't strike her as something that the Shiplords would do. And she's got a good head for them after her encounter.
To Leave said:
I've grouped these two together as they're pretty close together in Amanda's mental space. Looking at the Shiplords right now, even with Kalilah seemingly alive and relatively unharmed, there's a significant portion of Amanda that just wants them gone. That doesn't mean dead at this juncture, just...not there anymore. Leave is Amanda telling the Shiplords to remove themselves from humanity's world, but more than that, it's telling them to not come back. That won't stick, she knows that. But given the display of power she's given, how humanity now knows that the Shiplords have weapons that disrupt Practice, and also that the war is about to kick off something fierce? It's not the worst play possible.
It does mean the Regular Fleet gets out with firm intel on you, but at this point, they're going to get that regardless. Amanda thinks it will send a very powerful statement to the Shiplords of what humanity thinks of them, but without committing humanity to anything it hasn't already accepted.
Of Opposites said:
These are opposites, in some ways, but they strike Amanda as two sides to the same coin. She doesn't quite get why, but from her own understanding of the Shiplords from the Second Battle of Sol and more, she believes that offering either of these in what she says could have rather unexpected consequences. To be clear, Forgiveness wouldn't offer it for all the Shiplords have done, in fact it probably wouldn't offer it at all. Amanda isn't capable of that right now, and humanity isn't either. But it could be spoken as part of a wider statement, which is why I'd put these two votes together. They feed into each other in Mandy's head, in a way I can't properly describe, but then...I don't think she can, either.
A risk, yes. But one purely of what reaction it might prompt from the Shiplords. Not humanity.
Path of Words said:
I almost added this to the list of denied options, but something made me hold onto it. To be clear, Amanda does not believe that any dialogue sufficient to explain things to humanity - if any explanation even exists - could occur here and now. In that way, this vote is one that supports Leave, actually. But it sends a different message than just that, as it carries the implicit willingness to at least listen, if they come willing to talk. It's a hand raised in hope of peace and sanity, with a sword of fire that scoured something in the region of 40% of a Regular fleet from existence in an instant held in the other.
Might it work immediately? Probably not. But if you want to play the long game...
It takes time for the system defence fleets to get there, and pretty much everything since Tactics 3 has taken place in a very short period of time. That fleet could still make it out pretty easily - the system defence fleets were clustered around Mars, and it'll take them a while to get out to where the Regular group is.
Edit: Almost forgot. @Shwaggy did you manage to work out your feelings on the last two updates yet? I'm quite curious as to what my writing elicited.
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- Location
- Somewhere out there
This is precisely what I intended when I provided the write-in, and hearing it put this way actually redoubles my preference for it.
And yes. I do want to play the long game. I don't want the Tribute Cycle to continue the way it is. Can we beat down the Shiplords when they come knocking at Humanity's doorstep? Probably, but that only gets us out of it.
Retribution feels good in the moment. Kicking out the invaders is a nice bow on a military victory. But if we want to actually bring about change? We have to show that despite our power... we want to pursue what's RIGHT.
Shwaggy
Weapon of Math Instruction
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- he/him/his
Frustratingly, no. Dealing with work the last week or so has drained all of my spoons, forks, knives, and dishware. Handling everything else with paper towels and bare hands hasn't left me the chance to really sit down and sort through it, and now time's passed...
Just went back and reread the scene, and I could get some of the shape of what I was thinking, something about the understanding and communication that happened there in that pivotal instant, but it's still hard to describe, and harder for the memory of when I first read it fading. Hopefully things will calm down soon-ish, and I'll go back a few chapters and really read through to try and recapture the thought.
Sorry for my feedback still being vague and un-helpful.
[X] Diplomacy
All my reluctance has suddenly disappeared! Long Game Best Game!
All my reluctance has suddenly disappeared! Long Game Best Game!
ConfusedPotato
Unverified Verifier
- Location
- Australia
[X] Why
- Location
- Minnesota
[X] Diplomacy
I am certain there is not. Oh, I agree there's almost certainly something worse than the Shiplords out there, and I also agree that at some time in the past there might have been a leader or significant group of Shiplords who may have thought that the something worse justified some pretty extreme actions, but at this point it's pretty clear that, whatever their motives and/or their desired ends, their means have gone so entirely beyond the pale that there's nothing that can justify them that isn't some pathological case (eg: some omnipotent god of magic decreeing that the Shiplords act this way or else the god does worse to everyone.)
Possibly, yes, but we have enough of the Shiplords' motives from the Tribute statement that anything new we learn here isn't going to gain us as much, IMO, as some of the alternatives on offer. More fundamentally, Why strikes me as distinctly passive and reactionary. Why doesn't take any proactive steps; it doesn't seek to make any changes to what's happening. It's just a second verse, same as the first (and in fact might be another round of verse). This moment is pivotal, enough that I think we can aim higher than merely trying to gather more data.
Hmm. Oh, I think I know what's going on here! One thing that both Forgiveness and Chastisement do in common is that they subvert the Shiplords' expectations. See, it's clear from the Shiplords' last statement to us, apparently the first communication between the Shiplords and a foreign polity in centuries, if ever, that they believe not only that their actions are necessary, but that, in the end, their victims will ultimately view their actions with gratitude. What both Forgiveness and Chastisement do is make it clear, possibly for the first time in the Shiplords' living memory, that this message is not getting through, that the Shiplords are not just feared but hated, that their actions invite reproach or the need to be forgiven.
I think we have a unique opportunity here to cause an ideological split in the Shiplord hierarchy. There probably already is a minority faction in the Shiplord ranks (or possibly in their civilian infrastructure, if they have one), people who are either more morally enlightened or at least skeptical, who don't necessarily buy the party line about current "best practices" when it comes to Tributing: the Shiplord perspective interlude, if nothing else, made it clear that the Shiplords are not an interstellar hivemind, and where there are individuals there are different perspectives, and therefore disagreements. What a dramatic Forgiveness or Chastisement could do is embolden this minority, if/when the confrontation gets back to the Shiplord Entire. It certainly won't cause a rift immediately, but as the pressure of the Secret War begins to mount it might be enough to cause a schism or even a rebellion.
Wouldn't that be something?
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
A culture that persists for a million years can't have much division. And a tribute race coming with 'you are not nice guys' is also not new.
Means, I don't see Forgiveness and Chastisement having any impact, because the SL know they are right.
Nope
Pretty much. I doubt this is the first time a Regular Fleet has had the shit beaten out of it.
Nowhere this spectacularly mind, but they wouldn't still be here if a single defeat shook their faith. I don't expect a paradigm shift in their thinking because one new species wielded what looks like the fires of creation at their fleet.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
That's a very human way of looking at culture.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Obviously I don't have the timeline in front of me, but you made it seem like the SL's modus operandi didn't change very much. If you got that kind of stable behavior, for the people getting soylent greened it doesn't matter if there's been protesters around for the last 500 thousand years, they still get sludged.
If the SL can/are being talked around to change their behavior, there must be really good explanation to make that believable.
Like I said in the paragraph you quoted, I don't expect this to have an immediate effect, but combined with other events, such as for example the entire galaxy rising up as one in rebellion (which is our plan as of Unknown Potential) it could help move the needle within Shiplord culture.
And, while it's possible that Shiplord culture is as homogeneous as you are suggesting, I'm not sure it's likely. I'd say it's as least as likely that there is a minority, one that's not vocal, that could be in opposition to current Tribute philosophy. Even in human culture you can see examples of this happening. In human cultures, slavery was considered socially acceptable for thousands of years, right up until it wasn't. That sea change didn't happen overnight, in that there were always groups, sometimes quite large and vocal ones, against slavery, but it wasn't until critical masses of people started to change their way of thinking, helped in no small part by the Industrial Revolution making slavery economically infeasible, that there was a permanent sea change in opinion.
And this is a change that we want to make available, if only because it will make the Secret War more winnable. As it stands, the current plan forces us to fight and likely genocide the entire Shiplord race, and every one of the Shiplords will know it. By presenting ourselves instead as being solidly against an aspect of Shiplord culture, rather than the Shiplord species, we can appear to leave them a route for their species to survive, whether or not they are ultimately allowed to.
- Location
- Somewhere out there
I think the goals you're looking for with Forgiveness/Chastisement are really part and parcel with Diplomacy. If the goal is to cause a long-term change in behavior by surprising them with an unexpectedly peaceful overture (Forgiveness) or with counterarguments (Chastisement) then Diplomacy accommodates both.
