Tales of History - A Civ-Builder Quest

Artemis1992 said:

How much can we take with us in sudden flight?
Not pops for sure and likely no serious amount of material loot beyond some trinkets either.

Ultimatly we can't change what happens in Greenvalley now, we can only return, having achieved as much as we deemed possible.
If that is not the cultural breaking of Makar, then at least plunder and serfs?

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Loot isn't my biggest priority, Artemis. It's unfortunate for sure, but my main motivation is that our army survives. If they die, we are dead for multiple reasons. Brushcrest will push the advantage regardless of whether or not they're already burning down Greenvalley, and our civilization will starve since the hunters are still a big part of food production.

DragonParadox said:

We know for a fact that our allies have in fact betrayed us.

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How? Its just the word of the Makar guy

wingstrike96 said:

How? Its just the word of the Makar guy

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Azel the GM has explicitly clarified OOC that Brushcrest has indeed stabbed us in the back.

I suspect we going to be outsmarted twice. First by Shell and second bluffed by Chosen.
Well, at least in that case our reputation as arrogant and stupid barbarian tribe from mountains will be fully deserved.

SMuha said:

I suspect we going to be outsmarted twice. First by Shell and second bluffed by Chosen.
Well, at least in that case our reputation as arrogant and stupid barbarian tribe from mountains will be fully deserved.

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Better to be a fool than suicidal.
If i was sure that Brushcrest wasn't pulling any shenanigans at our home, i'd go for the charge to.

Azel said:

Consider the situation from Chosens perspective. Why would he come with this offer? What are his goals? What is he planning?

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Azel said:

According to the River People, Makar was their great chieftain that ruled over them all, whispering wisdom into the dreams of his Chosen while his boat glided through the rivers in his endless hunts and raids. His wrath would strike down all who failed to give him what he was due, from food to sea shells to even the blood of their own people. In turn, he would bless those with strength and health that gave him great gifts, showed courage in battle, or spilled blood in his name.

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Azel said:

"Half your men. Not as sacrifice and not as menial workers, but as true warriors of Makar. They have shown themselves capable enough that we would be willing to forgive all other transgressions and even let you keep your plunder in return for their strength added to ours." It was only the shock at the proclamation that gave the Chosen time to even finish the offer.

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I want to add that one possible reason for the Chosen to offer this deal, that I have not read, is that it might be a question of religious doubt or just doubt in general, like it does not seem like that these people of Makar is used to defeat, but we defeated them and took a village with only half as many men as they had.

The Chosen/his people might be thinking this as either be seen as Makar being in favor of us or against his own people. They might of course also simply have realized that it is our combat techniques that did it. Their offer fits both ways of thinking, they can get our combat techniques by getting some of our warriors, but they can also regain the favor of Makar by getting those great warriors.

Azel said:

If you take that deal, you loose one military pop, but can instead enslave 4 of their civilian pops. Four being the maximum number of prisoners your remaining army could conceivably keep.

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If we look at this, then one can see that the Chosen is actually offering a rather good deal, since we would overall end up with 3 pops more, than before, and since we have 2 workers already, we could simply make one of them into a hunter/warrior pop.

Azel said:

Most people were fishers, warriors, gatherers, or woodcutters,

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I will of course have to admit that the kind of pops, that we can chose is rather poorly, though fishers are rather good food gatherers.

@Azel Is there any other types of pops, than these four types? Here I am mostly thinking about workers, that we can turn into other types of pops.

[] Accept the deal.
-[] Give up one unit of warriors, picked by the Chosen.

I fully know that there is little to no chance that accepting the deal wins, but I am okay with that.
The biggest problem with it is of course the knowledge gain the Makar would get, but I see it as a still good deal, that secures our military from huge losses, while we still get a large amount of loot.

Mortenkam said:

If we look at this, then one can see that the Chosen is actually offering a rather good deal, since we would overall end up with 3 pops more, than before, and since we have 2 workers already, we could simply make one of them into a hunter/warrior pop.

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We would loose our Heavy Warriors most likely.
Not only our best unit, but also a chance for the Makarites to improve their doktrine.

If attacking Makar now is suicide, strenghtening them like this is prolonged suicide.

[X] Do something else
-[X] When the Chosen returns, make him an offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[X] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[X] If the Chosen doesn't accept decide on the battle plan once you see his army

This is my last try, if it doesn't gain any steam to beat the bandwagon I guess we'll run like kicked dogs from one asshole with pretty headdress and his lying words.

Mortenkam said:

@Azel Is there any other types of pops, than these four types? Here I am mostly thinking about workers, that we can turn into other types of pops.

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If you take the deal, you would automatically loot as many generic worker pops as your army allows.

[X] Accept the deal.
-[X] Give up one unit of warriors, picked by the Chosen.
-[X] Tell our warriors to return home as soon as they see a chance

If they want to make use of our warriors they need to give them at least some freedoms else they would be better of with slaves so telling them to go home where their families are would be something we can expect most/all to do.

Artemis1992 said:

We would loose our Heavy Warriors most likely.
Not only our best unit, but also a chance for the Makarites to improve their doktrine.

If attacking Makar now is suicide, strenghtening them like this is prolonged suicide.

[X] Do something else
-[X] When the Chosen returns, make him an offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[X] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[X] If the Chosen doesn't accept decide on the battle plan once you see his army

This is my last try, if it doesn't gain any steam to beat the bandwagon I guess we'll run like kicked dogs from one asshole with pretty headdress and his lying words.

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I'm not opposed to this idea, but I'm confused on the geography. Great Hearth is one of the villages of the Sowing People, right?

@Artemis1992, I went back and confirmed.

I am fine with this plan. I feel like he might actually go for this, since he'd get more tribute out of it.

[X] Do something else
-[X] When the Chosen returns, make him an offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[X] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[X] If the Chosen doesn't accept decide on the battle plan once you see his army

[X] Do something else
-[X] When the Chosen returns, make him an offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[X] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[X] If the Chosen doesn't accept decide on the battle plan once you see his army

sunrise said:

[X] Accept the deal.
-[X] Give up one unit of warriors, picked by the Chosen.
-[X] Tell our warriors to return home as soon as they see a chance

If they want to make use of our warriors they need to give them at least some freedoms else they would be better of with slaves so telling them to go home where their families are would be something we can expect most/all to do.

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That won't work. The pop will be gone for good.

If you want to pull a fast one over the Chosen, you could instead let your own warriors swear blood oaths not to teach anyone their skills.

@Azel, what was our army's assessment of the Makarite hunters we fought? How equipped were they? How disciplined? Also, I take it their commander managed to escape while the berserker civilians were busy dying?

[X] Do something else
-[X] When the Chosen returns, make him an offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[X] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[X] If the Chosen doesn't accept decide on the battle plan once you see his army

Okay, so here's my plan & rationale:

1 unit of hunters is acceptable losses for us. Does it suck? Absolutely. But we're liable to lose a unit of hunters anyway in battle, and at least this way we can loot as many pops as our (now) four pop army can handle. I think something that's been forgotten in the discussion so far is our economy. We're on the cusp of switching to longhouses, but before this turn I was having conniptions planning out what to do because we just didn't have enough pops to switch to longhouses and keep up the tools and food we need to feed our growing population. Getting three or four pops of fishers, woodworkers, and farmers is a godsend. Especially considering that we might have lost quite a few pops in defending Greenvalley.

Yes, the secret of army organization will get out. But let's get real: we weren't going to be able to keep that for longer than one campaign anyways. Since Makar values warriors, our men will join the elite of their new society-- not the bottom tier. Since they already have a religion that venerates a god-king who is also a human ancestor to many of them, the infusion of one Greenvalley pop will definitely impact their religion and culture. I imagine that a syncretic faith will emerge where minor veneration of other ancestors-- likely prominent warriors-- will be permitted, with Makar being known as a particularly important ancestor, so much so that he is also a god. This will pave the way for later proselytization attempts from our Bonetenders. I think that, because our warriors are sure to do well, we can also establish a relationship of wary mutual respect for each other's military prowess.

So!

[X] Do something else
-[X] When the Chosen returns, make him a counter offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[X] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[X] If the Chosen doesn't accept then:
-[X] Accept the deal.
--[X] Give up one unit of warriors, picked by the Chosen.
---[X] All Greenvalley warriors will swear blood-oaths to never teach anyone their skills.

Good enough that i'm willing to gamble on it.

[X] Do something else
-[X] When the Chosen returns, make him a counter offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[X] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[X] If the Chosen doesn't accept then:
-[X] Accept the deal.
--[X] Give up one unit of warriors, picked by the Chosen.
---[X] All Greenvalley warriors will swear blood-oaths to never teach anyone their skills.

Never mind, I'm not going to flip-flop anymore, what's up is final.

Here's the plan:

[] Do something else
-[] When the Chosen returns, make him a counter offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[] If the Chosen doesn't accept then:
-[] Accept the deal.
--[] Give up one unit of warriors, picked by the Chosen.
---[] All Greenvalley warriors will swear blood-oaths to never teach anyone their skills.

[X] Do something else
-[X] When the Chosen returns, make him a counter offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[X] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[X] If the Chosen doesn't accept then:
-[X] Accept the deal.
--[X] Give up one unit of warriors, picked by the Chosen.
---[X] All Greenvalley warriors will swear blood-oaths to never teach anyone their skills.

Meh fine.

[X] Satar

That is acceptable.
I would prefer to look at the enemies forces first, before deciding to make the switch, but that's minor.

[] Try to flee. You still have a day before his warriors are in Riverbend.
-[] Flee immediately to keep as large a distance to the pursuers as you can.
-[] Attempt to keep good order and make certain that their are at least some scouts ahead to make sure nothing lies in our path.

Eesh, this is a mess reading through it. Ultimately I would like to point out a few things anyway 1: We have so far only targeted Brushcrest in raids, their fellow coalition members have no reason to help them strike the north-eastern mountain raiders who have so far only hit Brushcrest, instead of the the very large and currently very dangerous religious manics that they are all being regularly hit by. 2: We have stone walls. The only way we are losing the main Greenvalley settlement right now is by starvation and it hasn't been quite long enough for our food stocks to have run out quite yet. 3: We have our religious proto-vassals in the form of the White Clans up north, who will be extremely pissed if Brushcrest does hit the Temple and by extension us, meaning, they will be hitting any besieging force that is at Greenvalley.

To put it short, Greenvalley is very likely safe.

All the same, this guy and the Author's note has just shown us Brushcrest is not to be trusted and has in addition broken a blood sworn oath by tattling our plans to the Makar in order to get us killed, a perfectly valid cause for pulling out of the war. The Brushcrest coalition, even if they are fighting the Makarites, must do it without us due to this betrayal. Let us return home for now, and plan retaliation with help from the white clans, who will be more than happy to help us strike sacred oathbreakers who betrayed their religious leaders. Perhaps we could even encourage the clans to come wholesale down from the mountains and replace the river tribes with some far more appreciable neighbors.

Edit - Plan still stands, but as for the more immediate situation I'm willing to trust Satar's idea and our warrior's ability to maintain their oaths. Army reforms were likely to get out within 3 turns anyway, this just means Makar get them in two instead of three, besides, our warriors might even be able to add underlying elements of the faith of bones to the Makar, religions are certainly young and compatible enough that we might be able to get them to consider that Makar is just a truly great Ancestor beyond any other and even now whispers into the ears of the chosen, instead of a wholesale god. The collection of the ancestors will certainly be popular enough among less skilled warriors and civilians, who would now have a chance to meet him regardless of how much (or little) attention they may receive in life.

[X] Do something else
-[X] When the Chosen returns, make him a counter offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[X] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[X] If the Chosen doesn't accept then:
-[X] Accept the deal.
--[X] Give up one unit of warriors, picked by the Chosen.
---[X] All Greenvalley warriors will swear blood-oaths to never teach anyone their skills.

Fleeing is currently winning; striking the Makar temple is in second place; negotiating could tie as the first place option but currently the vote is being split 6/4.

OK, I've been persuaded to the less violent solution (broadly preferable IMO if it works). Let's see if we can turn Broken Shell's plans back on him

[X] Do something else.
-[X] When the Chosen returns, make him a counter offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[X] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[X] If the Chosen doesn't accept then:
-[X] Accept the deal.
--[X] Give up one unit of warriors, picked by the Chosen.
---[X] All Greenvalley warriors will swear blood-oaths to never teach anyone their skills.

[X] Do something else.
-[X] When the Chosen returns, make him a counter offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[X] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[X] If the Chosen doesn't accept then:
-[X] Accept the deal.
--[X] Give up one unit of warriors, picked by the Chosen.
---[X] All Greenvalley warriors will swear blood-oaths to never teach anyone their skills.

[X] Do something else.
-[X] When the Chosen returns, make him a counter offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[X] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[X] If the Chosen doesn't accept then:
-[X] Accept the deal.
--[X] Give up one unit of warriors, picked by the Chosen.
---[X] All Greenvalley warriors will swear blood-oaths to never teach anyone their skills.

[X] Do something else
-[X] When the Chosen returns, make him a counter offer. Since you were both played against the other by the sowing men, you will show them the consequences of trying to trick their betters
-[X] Together follow the river down to strike at the Great Hearth, punish the plainsmen and claim tribute for Makar and their ancestors alike
-[X] If the Chosen doesn't accept then:
-[X] Accept the deal.
--[X] Give up one unit of warriors, picked by the Chosen.
---[X] All Greenvalley warriors will swear blood-oaths to never teach anyone their skills.