- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
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Which if we leave now the we know exactly how to do.
Tales of History - A Civ-Builder Quest
- Thread starter Azel
- Start date
- Original
Which if we leave now the we know exactly how to do.
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
We're even further away from them than the lowlanders, and the mountains are treacherous and full of White Clans. Come on.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
And we just took one of their villages, which was done by no one else in living memory.
Further more come on, you can't possible think that the people who we beat earlier has apparently launched a massive entire nation army attack on us when their supposed allies are being crushed as we speak?
- Location
- Derna
I'd like to present a counter-take to Satar's above.
Here is Brushcrest's estimation of Makar's forces. I'm willing to trust it as a ballpark; the numbers may be low, but I figure Brushcrest was probably hoping we'd do some damage on the way down.
Estimated Makar Forces:
2 to 4 Hunters (Elite)
6 to 10 Hunters (Veteran)
10 to 20 other units of unknown quality
I am assuming the 'other units' are fanatics, which seems to be a reasonable assumption. If they had any units more organized/better equipped than regular hunters, that'd likely be noted unless they're kept locked up. We fought five hunters here, plus five fanatics. Again, these numbers might be low, but there's no way Makar has like twenty hunters. Brushcrest's coalition of states is 15-ish at most. Unless they gather all the hunter units we previously fought and get them back into combat, the force chasing us simply can't be as large as what we just fought. That was a whole village; they won't pick up all of Oaklake to chase us.
So. What about the forces at Makar itself? We might be scared of fanatics, but wait a minute - there shouldn't be any there! They only keep slaves and hunters there, not normal Makarites. Lots of hunters, sure. Probably 2-3 elites, plus three-four more. But we don't need to be scared of hunters, they break like twigs. Even with their experience, our units should be able to rip through them. And if we can get the slaves on our side (which shouldn't be hard - Makar can't have the technology to contain the slaves except at spearpoint), that'll even up the numbers quite a bit. By attacking Makar itself we'll be striking at the heart of their civilization, and at the not-berserker core of their military, while it's weak. Plus, we might even be able to bulk up our numbers with slaves for the fight against the chase group.
And all this is assuming the Chosen isn't bluffing. If he is, there's no way they can shift troops to stop this thrust. If he isn't, then we'll be faced with what should be an easier version of the previous village fight, with additional troops. And if Brushcrest really is in the war on our side...well, Makar is gone.
Sure, it's a risk, but nothing ventured nothing gained. All we need to do is win two battles and Makar is out of the fight. I understand the instinct to retreat to Greenvalley, though, and won't complain if that's what we end up going with. The Makarites probably can't project much force through the mountains, but I have no doubt Brushcrest hates us enough to host a 'beat up the mountain folks' army for the next few generations.
Here is Brushcrest's estimation of Makar's forces. I'm willing to trust it as a ballpark; the numbers may be low, but I figure Brushcrest was probably hoping we'd do some damage on the way down.
Estimated Makar Forces:
2 to 4 Hunters (Elite)
6 to 10 Hunters (Veteran)
10 to 20 other units of unknown quality
I am assuming the 'other units' are fanatics, which seems to be a reasonable assumption. If they had any units more organized/better equipped than regular hunters, that'd likely be noted unless they're kept locked up. We fought five hunters here, plus five fanatics. Again, these numbers might be low, but there's no way Makar has like twenty hunters. Brushcrest's coalition of states is 15-ish at most. Unless they gather all the hunter units we previously fought and get them back into combat, the force chasing us simply can't be as large as what we just fought. That was a whole village; they won't pick up all of Oaklake to chase us.
So. What about the forces at Makar itself? We might be scared of fanatics, but wait a minute - there shouldn't be any there! They only keep slaves and hunters there, not normal Makarites. Lots of hunters, sure. Probably 2-3 elites, plus three-four more. But we don't need to be scared of hunters, they break like twigs. Even with their experience, our units should be able to rip through them. And if we can get the slaves on our side (which shouldn't be hard - Makar can't have the technology to contain the slaves except at spearpoint), that'll even up the numbers quite a bit. By attacking Makar itself we'll be striking at the heart of their civilization, and at the not-berserker core of their military, while it's weak. Plus, we might even be able to bulk up our numbers with slaves for the fight against the chase group.
And all this is assuming the Chosen isn't bluffing. If he is, there's no way they can shift troops to stop this thrust. If he isn't, then we'll be faced with what should be an easier version of the previous village fight, with additional troops. And if Brushcrest really is in the war on our side...well, Makar is gone.
Sure, it's a risk, but nothing ventured nothing gained. All we need to do is win two battles and Makar is out of the fight. I understand the instinct to retreat to Greenvalley, though, and won't complain if that's what we end up going with. The Makarites probably can't project much force through the mountains, but I have no doubt Brushcrest hates us enough to host a 'beat up the mountain folks' army for the next few generations.
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
I agree that they likely can't project force through the mountains, but listen to yourself, man . You're betting the survival of 3/4ths of our army on (1) successfully fighting and routing Makar's personal forces and killing him, before (2) turning around to fight and rout the force following us, plus (3) defeating any other force that comes to reinforce either (1) or (2). Not to mention that we then need to extricate our expeditionary force from the region. It's insanity. Pure, simple, insanity.
Normally I'm the one pushing us to take risks-- but this isn't a risk! This is suicide! Azel called it a "wild idea" and a "kamikaze attack" for a reason. And what do we gain? The biggest beneficiaries of the collapse of the Makar will be the lowlanders. No, better we cut our losses and hightail back to Greenvalley.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
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I mean Satar, he's dead, and even if he wasn't a warlord in this era doesn't lead from the center of his empire when its at war, he'd be on the front.
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
I think they use Makar as a title for their current leader as well.
- Location
- Derna
We thought that, but they've actually got a weird religious council thing. That's what the Chosen are.
Anyway, I've got a gut feeling about hitting Makar. It's the right play. I edited my vote out for my plan earlier cuz I wanted to debate: think we've drawn our lines now.
[X] Do something else.
-[X] First of all, fucking merk that chosen.
-[X] As in the previous plan, juke east towards the river. Do not cross the river, though. Head immediately south and then west, towards Makar. Their host shouldn't be too far behind their scouts; by the time they see the feint, they should be north-east of our force. Don't try to conceal our tracks heading south though; if they don't realize we're going for the god-king, they might head for Greenvalley.
-[X] Head straight for Makar, cross the river and attack the site to incite a slave rebellion. Once we've taken it, all we need to do is defeat the force pursuing and run like hell for Greenvalley.
Anyway, I've got a gut feeling about hitting Makar. It's the right play. I edited my vote out for my plan earlier cuz I wanted to debate: think we've drawn our lines now.
[X] Do something else.
-[X] First of all, fucking merk that chosen.
-[X] As in the previous plan, juke east towards the river. Do not cross the river, though. Head immediately south and then west, towards Makar. Their host shouldn't be too far behind their scouts; by the time they see the feint, they should be north-east of our force. Don't try to conceal our tracks heading south though; if they don't realize we're going for the god-king, they might head for Greenvalley.
-[X] Head straight for Makar, cross the river and attack the site to incite a slave rebellion. Once we've taken it, all we need to do is defeat the force pursuing and run like hell for Greenvalley.
- Location
- Minnesota
I have had some thoughts of presenting a counter offer to the Makarites: That as we obey the will of the ancestors we cannot obey those who aren't among their number. So if they want our warriors they should inter their leaders in the Temple of Bones.
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
Good to know.
Yeah, I think we've basically made our positions clear.
MasterDrakus
DEUS SOL
- Location
- Minas Gerais, Brazil
[X] Try to flee. You still have a day before his warriors are in Riverbend.
-[X] Flee immediately to keep as large a distance to the pursuers as you can.
I don't like our current chances against them with our host, if we could get a bigger one and maybe rally some clansmen to our side I believe we would have a better chance.
-[X] Flee immediately to keep as large a distance to the pursuers as you can.
I don't like our current chances against them with our host, if we could get a bigger one and maybe rally some clansmen to our side I believe we would have a better chance.
- Location
- Germany
[X] Do something else.
-[X] First of all, fucking merk that chosen.
-[X] As in the previous plan, juke east towards the river. Do not cross the river, though. Head immediately south and then west, towards Makar. Their host shouldn't be too far behind their scouts; by the time they see the feint, they should be north-east of our force. Don't try to conceal our tracks heading south though; if they don't realize we're going for the god-king, they might head for Greenvalley.
-[X] Head straight for Makar, cross the river and attack the site to incite a slave rebellion. Once we've taken it, all we need to do is defeat the force pursuing and run like hell for Greenvalley.
I trust the Chosen telling us "there's totally an army behind me guys, just wait and see" far less than the Bushcrest diplo so far.
Besides, if we flee now we have essentially the Plainlands and the Makarites as our enemies. All of them.
That's won't end well long-term.
Right now if we break the temple and Bushcrest has been telling the truth we win, we can shatter the Makarites as a faction.
@Duesal @Satar
Keep in mind that they actually did offer for us to march with their army. This backstabbing against Makar here was our idea, not something Bushcrest could have predicted.
-[X] First of all, fucking merk that chosen.
-[X] As in the previous plan, juke east towards the river. Do not cross the river, though. Head immediately south and then west, towards Makar. Their host shouldn't be too far behind their scouts; by the time they see the feint, they should be north-east of our force. Don't try to conceal our tracks heading south though; if they don't realize we're going for the god-king, they might head for Greenvalley.
-[X] Head straight for Makar, cross the river and attack the site to incite a slave rebellion. Once we've taken it, all we need to do is defeat the force pursuing and run like hell for Greenvalley.
I trust the Chosen telling us "there's totally an army behind me guys, just wait and see" far less than the Bushcrest diplo so far.
Besides, if we flee now we have essentially the Plainlands and the Makarites as our enemies. All of them.
That's won't end well long-term.
Right now if we break the temple and Bushcrest has been telling the truth we win, we can shatter the Makarites as a faction.
@Duesal @Satar
Keep in mind that they actually did offer for us to march with their army. This backstabbing against Makar here was our idea, not something Bushcrest could have predicted.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
They have no chance of crossing the mountains in ANY time soon, Even if you factor out the fact that its hard and outright dangerous if you don't know the area well, the mountain is crawling in nomadic clans, who are inclined to be friendly to us and hostile to others.
- Location
- Germany
This is exactly the kind of bluff a desperate commander would pull out of his ass.
And the kind off double-bluff Azel uses when he's feeling to merciful to go for full planning.
And the kind off double-bluff Azel uses when he's feeling to merciful to go for full planning.
- Location
- United States
Them backstabbing us would have been simpler for them had we marched with their army. They outnumbered us.
More to the point, I am far more confident in our chances of survival with our army intact rather than some insane plan to go further into Makarite territory and try to spark an uprising before being surrounded.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Like this route is complete and utter suicide, It relies on so many things that we have no idea will even HAPPEN. This is ludicrous.
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
If we had marched with them, our army would have been quietly surrounded one night and just massacred. Thank god that we didn't choose to march with them!
What it all boils down to is: Do you trust Brushcrest?
I don't. I really truly don't. I would rather take this limited victory at this village and go home to make sure that Greenvalley is safe. Even if we destroy the Makarites, our low population and limited reach means we will little benefit.
I know, right? Any plan that has us moving deeper into Makarite territory is just crazy to me.
- Location
- United States
@Artemis1992, even if by some miracle you win, then what? Even a victory will bleed our army dry, and then whether or not Brushcrest has already betrayed us, at that point they'll see a golden opportunity to fuck us over.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Walker Of Chaos
Best/Worst Dynasty
- Location
- Sweden
[X] Try to flee. You still have a day before his warriors are in Riverbend.
-[X] Flee immediately to keep as large a distance to the pursuers as you can.
-[X] Flee immediately to keep as large a distance to the pursuers as you can.
- Location
- Germany
It all depends on how defensible the temple is and how the Makarites react if we shatter Makar's home and (symbolically) end his reign and (physically) kill his chosen and put their heads on spikes.
We don't even know if there is an army coming for us now, or how big it is.
If Bushcrest is marching as they said, that's a clean victory for us, not even necessarily with high losses.
If not, it's still a chance for victory and a giant "Don't fuck with us" to Bushcrest.
Remember that they don't know how much of our army is in this field right now.
Eh, I doubt they would have thought that works so easily.
We still would have had a seperate camp and our own people awake.
That would have been a slaughter like every time we fought the Plains people. Maybe a slaughter we'd have lost to number, but terrible for them too anyway.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
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People why are you deciding to literally do the effective same thing of a SINGLE PERSON telling us "things will go wrong if you don't effectively spare us".
This is the exact same thing that happened literally 4 updates ago again.
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People why are you deciding to literally do the effective same thing of a SINGLE PERSON telling us "things will go wrong if you don't effectively spare us".
This is the exact same thing that happened literally 4 updates ago again.