A true hero... in training (Pokemon Gym Leader's apprentice quest)

[X][Strategy] Prioritize Lily: Correct Charge Edition
-[X] Maelstrom takes Houndour D, Fang takes Houndour E. Maelstrom should focus on just keeping the Houndour away from Lily, while Fang should go for the KO.
-[X] Maelstrom: use Bounce + Aqua Jet to get maybe one surprise attack attempt in, before settling to harrass with just Aqua Jet. Fang: use Charge while closing in, then Thunder Fang to finish. Both use the same combo when attacking other Houndours as well.
-[X] After eliminating their opponents: prioritize helping allies in the following order: 1. Anyone really struggling, 2. Lily, 3. Haru's other pokemon 4. Grunts.


Just made some changes to the plan to use Charge correctly, as well as staying in our own battles more.
 
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[X][Strategy] Prioritize Lily: Corrdct Charge Edition
-[X] Maelstrom takes Houndour D, Fang takes Houndour E. Maelstrom should focus on just keeping the Houndour away from Lily, while Fang should go for the KO.
-[X] Maelstrom: use Bounce + Aqua Jet to get maybe one surprise attack attempt in, before settling to harrass with just Aqua Jet. Fang: use Charge while closing in, then Thunder Fang to finish. Both use the same combo when attacking other Houndours as well.
-[X] After eliminating their opponents: prioritize helping allies in the following order: 1. Anyone really struggling, 2. Lily, 3. Haru's other pokemon 4. Grunts.


Just made some changes to the plan to use Charge correctly, as well as staying in our own battles more.
Word of QM is apparently that Houndoom will end us.
 
tbh I partake in Paroni strategy up to the "what we do after we got those out" part. We do not know how thing will change. will lily lose her concentration because of the burn ? will the houndours fighting one another breack the infatuation ? Will gligar miss his next move and get caught ? Or will all of that happen ? may they all three settle theit respective battle as we settle ours ?

Reinforcments are always good, except when they aren't. the three houndours are ranked A, B, and C. this is FAR out of our league ! if me rush in mindlessly, we will end up endangering our team for nothing, and maybe even getting in the way of our allies just by our sheer presence .We should only intervene in case of dire need, and only as a temporary distraction, avoiding even to engage the enemy directly if we can.
 
Ho, that's a relief. Still not keen on attacking without having the chance to come up with an adapted strategy, towards a set fight scene. eventually the real thing that says if it works is dice, but planing that far, especially whent we would join a dangerous fight ? too risky : coming up with a sound and adapted strategy backed up with arguments will always work better (because DC like us when we explain why we do things and it makes sense)
 
Word of QM is apparently that Houndoom will end us.

Not exactly. I said that any pokemon 2 whole ranks above has victory assured, but not counting typing or strategy. That means that Maelstrom will have a really hard time tanking more than one hit and dealing damage. Fang on the other hand could get one hit and still fight. Doesn't mean they can win in a 1v1 against Houndoom but they are not going to be annihilated just because they approach.

They might if they anger Houndoom enough to get him to attack them.
 
Seriously don't go to these things. The remaining Houndour are to high a Rank for Maelstrom.
Not exactly. I said that any pokemon 2 whole ranks above has victory assured, but not counting typing or strategy. That means that Maelstrom will have a really hard time tanking more than one hit and dealing damage. Fang on the other hand could get one hit and still fight. Doesn't mean they can win in a 1v1 against Houndoom but they are not going to be annihilated just because they approach.

They might if they anger Houndoom enough to get him to attack them.
we're going to get Ahnillated by Lily. She's stronger than anyone here and we only have physical attacks. Meaning getting into her line of Fire. She will DESTROY those two by complete accident if our interference goes badly.
 
Which is why I voted to "wait for an opening to assist Lily". It's all a matter of timing.

Blanket statements like "we're going to get annihilated by Lily" don't work if there's an easy way around them.
Pure Melee. That's what we have. Support would be better if we had ranged moves. But bluntly speaking, Maelstrom will do very little to the Houndoom in the first place. Fang can do more, but he's slower than Maelstrom at his absolute best and Maelstrom's absolute worst. That increases odds of him not getting out of Avatar Lily's blast radius fast enough.

Do not ever assume that a clash of titans(which they really are at our current level) is an easy thing to join. There will be no 'perfect opening' to jump in at. And also, you're expecting Haru to not just get in the way and be a hinderance in this. When he is a very freshly minted trainer whom has probably had so little experience, if any at all, in team battles with other trainers. There are good odds we'll fuck it up simply cuz Haru does not have much experience with any aspect of being a trainer and right now? Right now is a very bad time to try to get some of that experience.
 
[X][Strategy] Jump up jump up and get down
- [X] Mael Bounces high, over Houndour D and Aqua Jets Houndour E. If that's not enough to KO it, he Bounces to dodge its attacks, and counters with Aqua Jet.
- [X] Fang keeps attacking Houndour D with Thunder Fang. If he has got a second (because his opponent is staggered, paralysed or KOed) he Charges up in preparation for another attack.
- [X] If their respective opponents are down, they assist each other using the same attacks. If both opponents are down. We take a moment to check how others are doing.

I like this one. It focuses on our current opponents and has us pause to take in the situation once those opponents are down. Maybe the others will have already won by that point, or maybe our pokemon will be too badly injured to fight any more. We can decide what to do once we know the situation at that point.
 
[X][Strategy] Prioritize Lily: Correct Charge Edition
-[X] Maelstrom takes Houndour D, Fang takes Houndour E. Maelstrom should focus on just keeping the Houndour away from Lily, while Fang should go for the KO.
-[X] Maelstrom: use Bounce + Aqua Jet to get maybe one surprise attack attempt in, before settling to harrass with just Aqua Jet. Fang: use Charge while closing in, then Thunder Fang to finish. Both use the same combo when attacking other Houndours as well.
-[X] After eliminating their opponents: prioritize helping allies in the following order: 1. Anyone really struggling, 2. Lily, 3. Haru's other pokemon 4. Grunts.
 
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Blanket statements like "we're going to get annihilated by Lily" don't work if there's an easy way around them.

There's no easy way against RNGesus. Is the dice are bad on this move (and we may not even need to interfere at all !!!), we gotta pay the price. those pokemons are evolved, they outrank rank us easily, and have dangerous moves. Unless lily really struggles, I would not try my chance at it : we already done enough when we let the houndour slip up past us because people thought focusing on only one of our two foes was a good idea.
 
After reading the analysis thus far, I think I can list the key arguments:

First: Paroni's view of Charge was wrong.
- This is easy to solve, because it's completely true :D. If you otherwise liked my plan, go for KidFromPallet's "Prioritize Lily: Corrdct Charge Edition", or just modify my plan and get the Charge part out completely.

Second: Houndoom is not a good target for Maelstrom and Fang

- The lack of ranged, and Haru's minimal experience, make this a compelling argument.
- At the very least, I'd include a note in the strategy, that says that any combat against the Houndoom should just be distracting it from afar, not actually going close and making it more difficult for Lily. The Houndoom doesn't know we don't have range attacks after all, and Lily could benefit from even just a tiny extra moment of opportunity when the Houndoom takes a look at Fang and Mael.

Third: Point 3 ("What is the general plan for the combat?") in the Strategy Model is unnecessary in the first place
- I'd say that Mount. Elements has got a point in that combat may evolve in chaotic ways, and that if Lux just follows our point 3 strategies in a new situation it wasn't planned for, it could cause unintended bad results.
- Howewer, I still think that it is best to include a part 3, that just covers the case where everything goes as planned. I have faith that Lux will stop simulating our plan and ask for a new one, if it looks like any Point 3 strategies would obviously lead to catastrophic results. Adding such a general top-level strategy will streamline the combats in all the cases where nothing too unexpected happens.
- Maybe it could be a good idea to flesh out Point 3 a bit more, like I already did with adding the "intercept Grunt Houndours" part. More info about the Houndoom sounds good to me here, for example.


To remind (and I think this is very important), I propose using a general voting outline of:

[][Strategy] Plan name
- Who to target, with which pokemon
- What moves to use, in general and in some specific situations
- What is the general plan for the whole combat, and what to do after the initial target is down
- Additional notes to take into account

Making plans with the same general outline helps us all in comparing them against each other, and in modifying them. During these first votes with the new system, I propose that we settle down with something resembling this model. Of course, improvement suggestions by others are received with gratitude, I'm not claiming to peddle a finished product here.


Okay, my new upgraded strategy. To be honest, the Jump up jump up and get down, and the Prioritize Lily: Corrdct Charge Edition plans are already pretty decent, but hey, why not try to iterate through more versions a bit to eventually get to the gold. As with my last plan, using this new one as a base for other plans is more than welcome by me. :)

[X][Strategy] No Charge, No melee with Houndoom, No jumping all over, Help each other first
-[X] Maelstrom takes Houndour D, Fang takes Houndour E. Maelstrom should focus on just keeping the Houndour away from Lily, while Fang should go for the KO.
-[X] Maelstrom: use Bounce + Aqua Jet to get maybe one surprise attack attempt in, before settling to harrass with just Aqua Jet. Fang: Use Thunder Fang. Both use the same combo when attacking other Houndours as well.
-[X] After eliminating their opponents: prioritize helping allies in the following order: 1. Haru's other pokemon 2. Lily, 3. Grunts.

-[X] Fang should be aware of any Houndours slipping from the Grunts, and intercept with Charge, even if it means that he has to fight 2v1 for a bit.
-[X] Fang and Maelstrom should not close to melee with Houndoom. Engaging with Houndoom should be only done from a distance, providing distraction.

The modifications I did to my earlier plan:
1. I removed Charge. The Houndours seem to take wounds pretty well even with just Thunder Fang, so buffing the next attack doesn't seem as necessary. Charge (now that I understand it), should be used in the beginning of a fight with a clear type advantage (to make a 2x to a 4x), or against a pokemon with really strong defenses (to make 0x to a 1x).
2. I added the part about not entering melee with Houndoom.
3. I changed the priority list. Helping each other out first sounds indeed the most sensible thing, when our effectiveness might suffer alongside other trainers' pokemon due to Haru's lack of experience.

I also want to note that I don't like Jump up jump up and get down's usage of so much bounce. I feel like that gives Houndour E more opportunities to change targets surprisingly, while Mael is always in floating in the air out of reach. Edit: This is a pretty minor nitpick though.
 
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[X][Strategy] moving on
-[x] Maelstrom continue to use aqua jet to defeat Houndour E.
-[x] Fang thunder fang Houndour D. When that Houndour is defeated communicate with Lily and support her.

If Haru were to send one of his Pokémon away from his direct control to engage in another fight it should be Fang. The Houndour he'd be fighting has been drenched so another thunder fang should end that fight. Once that has been done he can talk with Lily and help out. He could stand around making lots of noise and sparks with his electricity, attempting to distract the Houndoom for her or he could wait and charge up while Lily gets the Houndoom into position for an attack then covers his retreat. Or it could be something else completely.

Maelstrom is best kept close so we can give orders and offer more directions. The Houndour he'd been fighting is almost finished and given he's down to 1 hit point a solid aqua jet should end that fight. After this Haru and Maelstrom can watch out for any Houndour looking to change targets or someone in need of help.
 
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tbh I expect our current foe (E is it ?) to try and intercept the pokemon we send after the extinguished Houndour (D ?). By using bounce, Malestrom would have more chances to get past a "barrage of some sort, especially with fang acting as a distraction, maybe even dealing a finishing blow and following up with aiding maelstrom in the worst case scenario where he fails the attack.

However, bounce+aquajet would be a pretty powerfull damage outcome, and will probably catch the extinguished unaware, thus finishing it (both houndours have 2 wounds after all). If we tried to sent Fang, our current foe may try to prevent it from reaching the extinguished target.
 
tbh I expect our current foe (E is it ?) to try and intercept the pokemon we send after the extinguished Houndour (D ?). By using bounce, Malestrom would have more chances to get past a "barrage of some sort, especially with fang acting as a distraction, maybe even dealing a finishing blow and following up with aiding maelstrom in the worst case scenario where he fails the attack.

However, bounce+aquajet would be a pretty powerfull damage outcome, and will probably catch the extinguished unaware, thus finishing it (both houndours have 2 wounds after all). If we tried to sent Fang, our current foe may try to prevent it from reaching the extinguished target.
Then he tries to prevent it and get hit by two Pokémon again. He'll be taken out quick and they'll be able to move onto the next Houndour together.

Who would be better to send to another battle, Fang or Maelstrom? Who'll be able to coordinate themselves better when out of our direct influence? Fang is stronger, has more options and more is more independent. If either of our Pokémon were to get near that Houndoom I'd rather it be Fang as he's stronger and can at least take a hit before going down. Beyond Maelstrom taking out the weakened Houndour what's the plan? Have him chill out for a while? Should he try to attack the Houndoom?
 
Word of QM is apparently that Houndoom will end us.

I never had anything in my vote about the Houndoom though?

Seriously don't go to these things. The remaining Houndour are to high a Rank for Maelstrom.

All of the Houndour Rank from E- to D-. Our Pokemon are at that same level.

[Strategy] Prioritize Lily: Corrdct Charge Edition

Whoops, that was a typo. It's supposed to be Correct Charge Edition. I already changed my vote.
 
All of the Houndour Rank from E- to D-. Our Pokemon are at that same level.
No lowest Rank is E. A whole Rank higher than Maelstrom. And funnily enough the E Ranked one is Houndour E. D is one of the two E+s and the remaining Houndour are E+ and D-. Seriously these things are quite dangetous for Maelstrom. Only reason I'm comfortable sending him at the weakest is due to that one being heavily injured already, and being forced to use physical attacks, which Maelstrom tanks much better than Special Attacks.
 
No lowest Rank is E. A whole Rank higher than Maelstrom. And funnily enough the E Ranked one is Houndour E. D is one of the two E+s and the remaining Houndour are E+ and D-. Seriously these things are quite dangetous for Maelstrom. Only reason I'm comfortable sending him at the weakest is due to that one being heavily injured already, and being forced to use physical attacks, which Maelstrom tanks much better than Special Attacks.
Dark? You're fearmongering again.
 
Dark? You're fearmongering again.
You and I must have very different definitions of fearmongering since that post is pointing out just how much stronger those things are than Maelstrom.

Fearmongering would be saying not to send either of our Pokémon to Houndour E due to how close that one is to Lily and the Houndoom's fight and risking getting hit by a stray shot.

But I'm just pointing out how huge a Rank difference between Maelstrom and the pack is.
 
No lowest Rank is E. A whole Rank higher than Maelstrom. And funnily enough the E Ranked one is Houndour E. D is one of the two E+s and the remaining Houndour are E+ and D-. Seriously these things are quite dangetous for Maelstrom. Only reason I'm comfortable sending him at the weakest is due to that one being heavily injured already, and being forced to use physical attacks, which Maelstrom tanks much better than Special Attacks.

Yes, they are quite dangerous, and I imagine we wouldn't be fighting them if we had a choice. Unfortunately, we don't. My plan has Maelstrom fighting against a lone Houndour, making use of type advantage, while Fang goes to keep the Houndour that's near Lily busy so that she doesn't get out maneuvered.

Like, I don't know what to tell you, man.

Maelstrom only focuses on one Houndour so that he has a better chance of not getting hit.

Fang goes after the Houndour that's currently in another battle because he's smarter and more able to know how to interfere there without provoking the Houndoom. Additionally, Fang is using Charge before going into that, which has the double effect of strengthening his Thunder Fang and raising his Sp. Def. That way, it's more likely that Houndour is taken out of the battle and if he's grazed/hit by a ranged attack from the Houndoom he'll survive it better.
 
Yes, they are quite dangerous, and I imagine we wouldn't be fighting them if we had a choice. Unfortunately, we don't. My plan has Maelstrom fighting against a lone Houndour, making use of type advantage, while Fang goes to keep the Houndour that's near Lily busy so that she doesn't get out maneuvered.
Almost, if not every, plan is doing that. Except yours is sending Maelstrom to the much more dangerous one.
Fang goes after the Houndour that's currently in another battle because he's smarter and more able to know how to interfere there without provoking the Houndoom. Additionally, Fang is using Charge before going into that, which has the double effect of strengthening his Thunder Fang and raising his Sp. Def. That way, it's more likely that Houndour is taken out of the battle and if he's grazed/hit by a ranged attack from the Houndoom he'll survive it better.
Provoke the Houndoom with what? It's non-existent ranged attacks? Both of our mon are Melee. And it's safer for Maelstrom to attack the weaker Houndour. Cuz it can't hit Maelstrom's weak point. His Special Defense.
 
Provoke the Houndoom with what? It's non-existent ranged attacks? Both of our mon are Melee. And it's safer for Maelstrom to attack the weaker Houndour. Cuz it can't hit Maelstrom's weak point. His Special Defense.

Aside from Smog and Ember (the latter of which Maelstrom has a type advantage against), Houndour/Houndoom have primarily physical moves. Unless that Houndoom is a lot more powerful that we think or someone has been teaching it, those are the only two ranged moves it should have at this point (assuming rank D+ translates to roughly lv 20-30).
 
Almost, if not every, plan is doing that. Except yours is sending Maelstrom to the much more dangerous one.

Personally, I consider the battle between Lily and the Houndoom much more dangerous than a single Houndour.

Provoke the Houndoom with what? It's non-existent ranged attacks? Both of our mon are Melee. And it's safer for Maelstrom to attack the weaker Houndour. Cuz it can't hit Maelstrom's weak point. His Special Defense.

Houndoom has a dual-typed fire and poison ranged attack that he hit Lily with last update. I'd rather send Fang, because he has both the intelligent to go for paths to the Houndour that won't get the Houndoom to try and blast him with that and the Sp. Def that he might survive being hit with that.
 
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