Strange Tides

??? Was this from an actual epic or poem??? All I'm finding is a modern published book. I mean yeah trying to see what's "Canon" in mythology is kinda futile* but I don't think we should be citing Percy Jackson and look for camp of demigods.

*Like I'm pretty sure most of the surviving Greek Myths we have today are from Athens specifically which is why Ares is the Worst and Athena is Zeus' amazing bestest kid while Hera, goddess of the sanctity of Marrige, is a huge bitch.

People being like "oh we can just steal from the gods!" Like exhibit A Prometheus. Also why the fuck would a mortal be able to weild a godly weapon. Simply looking at part of a God's true countenance kills you. There is a very clear divide between mortals and Gods of any stripe in Greek Myth, it's a supremely nihilistic mythos. Like Norse myth has their God's getting punked on, China has Sun Wukong who's like the platonic ideal of dunking on Gods. I can't really think of anything like that in Greek Myth, and lots of counterexamples. There's a reason why "hubris" (imagining you could be an equal of the Gods is the peak of this) is one the key essential elements of any Greek tragedy, heck even some of the non tragedies.

To use DnD as an extreme metaphor I'd say a level 1 commoner has more of a chance of surviving literally pissing on an Archduke of Hells Cornflakes than a Greek Myth mortal has of surviving any slightly negative encounter with a God. Like in DnD there's a few CG or even CN dieties who find the cornflake pisser to be hilarious and might be willing to spend some of their divine power saving them.

Again I imagine there might be a chance the DMs are willing to give us options in the faaaarrrrr faaaaaaaaaarrrrrrr future, but don't count on it. After all, DP created this to get a break from DnD.

Key quibble: fatalistic rather than nihilistic.

Now, while I agree wholeheartedly that the idea of us taking on the gods is laughable* and shows an unwillingness to engage with the source material/setting, you slightly over-correct in your analysis.
Few examples:
- There's that part in the Illiad where Ares gets cut by a mortal hero and runs whining back to Zeus**.
- Archne managed to outweave Athena, but her choice of content left the gods to judge Athena the winner (seriously, mocking an already biased panel of judges?)
- Midas managed to match Apollo in their contest until Apollo decided to arbitrarily change the rules (although Midas was using an instrument made by Athena at the time)

But yeah, mortal victories over the gods tend to be in a) non combat scenarios and b) short lived.

*The idea that we are, or ever even might be, in a position where we could be a badger to the Gods' bear is just silly. We're more like a dust bunny to them.
**Probably an example of that Athenian bias you noted.
 
@thamuzz Point. You could challenge and "win" against the gods as a mortal, but it pretty much always leaves you in a worse position.

And I guess the idea that we could play different Gods off against each other with worship seems optimistic too. First last I checked in Greek Myth the Gods don't really need human worship at all. I remember reading a version of Prometheus' tale where the only thing that sacrifice gives Gods is that the smell of the burning sacrifices makes their godly food taste better and might put them in a better mood.

Second, Gods don't really use their power to uh protect mortals in godly conflicts that much. Sure you could hurt a gods feelings by targeting a specific mortal boy/girl toy of theirs but regardless of what the God does, the mortal is still dead. In general Gods vying against each other over mortals results in the mortals being dead.
 
Vote Closed
Adhoc vote count started by Azel on Dec 4, 2018 at 2:17 PM, finished with 653 posts and 19 votes.

  • [X] Isidoros
    -[X] Pottery Kilns
    [X] Argurios
    -[X] The soldiers are a bit restless after a year of idleness. See if you can organize drills and training to keep them sharp and to potentially expand your forces.
    [X] Semni
    -[X] Send someone to negotiate with the local people to deepen ties or heal past insults.
    --[X] The Mountain Shepherds
    [X] Isidoros
    -[X] Pottery Kilns
    [X] Argurios
    -[X] The soldiers are a bit restless after a year of idleness. See if you can organize drills and training to keep them sharp and to potentially expand your forces.
    [X] Semni
    -[X] Learn the tongue of the local folk. Though not the most skillful or diligent pupil, Argurios is sure to get the most use from it, but Isidoros would be swifter in study
    [X] Isidoros
    -[X] Pottery Kilns
    [X] Argurios
    -[X] Learn the tongue of the local folk. Though not the most skillful or diligent pupil, Argurios is sure to get the most use from it, but Isidoros would be swifter in study
    [X] Semni
    -[X] Help Argurios
    [X] Isidoros
    -[X] Pottery Kilns
    [X] Argurios
    -[X] The soldiers are a bit restless after a year of idleness. See if you can organize drills and training to keep them sharp and to potentially expand your forces.
    [X] Semni
    -[X] Organize the cults. It is well past time to resume proper worship, lest the gods grow angry for this slight.
    [X] Isidoros
    -[X] Pottery Kilns
    [X] Argurios
    -[X] The soldiers are a bit restless after a year of idleness. See if you can organize drills and training to keep them sharp and to potentially expand your forces.
    [X] Semni
    -[X] Learn the tongue of the local folk. Though not the most skillful or diligent pupil, Argurios is sure to get the most use from it, but Isidoros would be swifter in study
 
ere's that part in the Illiad where Ares gets cut by a mortal hero and runs whining back to Zeus**.

Diomedes only managed to wound Ares because Athena guided his spear, after she (which is important because Athena is the goddess who taught the Greek the Art of chariot driving) drove his chariot during the battle and protected him from Ares by catching his spear with her hands

So it was more Athena holding his hands then him besting Ares on his own

Midas managed to match Apollo in their contest until Apollo decided to arbitrarily change the rules (although Midas was using an instrument made by Athena at the time)

Again Athena tilting the odds
 
Part X: A Realm In Order
A Realm In Order

The sound of spears striking shields filled the air. Men grunted from exertion, wrestling with each other. Sand crunching underneath the sandals of those running against each other. For Argurios, these sounds were more pleasing than the finest music. His father had ensured that he had learned the skills befitting of his station, and while he took well to lessons of comportment and speech, he always preferred the more martial teachings offered to him. What were craftsmen without the warriors protecting their homes? How could a city rise without walls to keep out the rabble? It was the work of artisans and poets to show the greatness and glory of a city, but it was the soldiers task make it great and glorious.

It felt like years since Argurios had last enjoyed himself like this. To be called into the council of the king first seemed like such a great opportunity. A chance to prove that for all its losses, house Alexis was still great. It was good that his father did not have to see the indignity heaped upon him, having departed to Hades during those days of divine wrath in Orchomenos. First that barbaroi girl tried to foist her bastard upon him and then the king even forced him to marry her. Never would this have happened in the old days! But try as he might, he could not pretend that they were still in Greece. Back then, he would have been expected to marry a woman of noble breeding to seal an alliance for his house, maybe even for the whole city if he married outside of it.

But here? These lands were not Greece, but Rumon, as the locals called it. There was no noble lady for him to marry here, and only barbaroi their neighbors as far as the eye could see. As much as he detested the thought, Semni was the closest thing to a woman of proper breeding he could have found here, the daughter of what passed for a king among her people. There was wisdom in what Isidoros had decreed, even though it took Argurios a long time to see it. Maybe one day Hyphyria would remember him all the more fondly for the sacrifice he had to make to ensure its first tentative ally.

If the woman in question just could have been at least somewhat pleasant company. True, he had picked her for her fair shape and the spark of cunning in her eyes, but what made her a good tumble in a lonely night in the mountains now had turned her into a harridan of a wife. Always a sharp retort on her lips, spoken just politely and hidden enough for him to be unable to reprimand her. Always the whispering behind his back and the unflattering rumors about him coming from nowhere. Good thing he didn't need to see the shrew for a while. She was back with her people, trying to mend the damage caused by the marriage being broken, and from what the messengers told, she seemed decently successful. He could already imagine her smug grin upon her return.

For now, though, he had other things to take care of, and he would make sure that he would outshine her efforts. Playing nice with her kin on Isidoros' behest was an easy thing to do, but he? He had finally a task that he could excel at. And sadly, it was direly necessary to perform a small miracle. Hyphyria's king had never paid much attention to military matters, just sending orders for the troops to go hither and yon, scouting the unknown lands and reporting back. There was no Strategos to turn vague orders into proper plans, though, and their efforts had suffered for it.

Worse yet, the soldiers themselves had suffered without some semblance of order. In the past, they had been Orchomenos' most well-traveled sons, more so even than the most successful merchant. From the shores of Aegyptus to the mountains of the Hittites they had fought, bringing back fat pay-chests for their services and rich plunder from these far lands. All the world feared and admired Greek soldiers of their discipline and prowess. Yet the year in Hyphyria had eroded much of what these men once had been.

Without guidance by a Strategos, they had organized themselves and mostly badly at that. Sure, there were patrols around the city, but haphazard and ineffectual ones. Worse yet, there had been barely any training been done in that year, the soldiers rather busying themselves to till the dirt for their own food or doing work for artisans. Without a proper city there was no pay, and while the soldiers had taken good care of their gear at last, they needed a place to sleep and a warm meal just like all other people in the city.

Did Isidoros know the issues lurking here? Probably not, Argurios decided. He had never shown great aptitude at matters of war, and with artisans, barbaroi, and priests yelling this and that at him all day, he probably considered it a good sign that the warriors had not joined the steady line of complainers waiting before the palace. Most likely, he would not have taken notice until the first time he would have had to call upon the military for an emergency, getting a few confused people milling around aimlessly instead of the organized fighting force they had in theory. The few officers left after the journey had been almost eager to see Argurios taking command and beginning to unravel the growing mess.

Organize Military: Success
Military regains some amount of order. Penalties to mobilization and organization removed.


Still, he could not lead these men as they were used to. Hyphyria had come far, but there were no proper smithies, no smelters making bronze, no bowyers making new bows and supplying arrows. The city barely produced enough food to last the winter, and the attacks of the Woodfolk had assured that even decent lumber was hard to come by, let alone good blades and spears for soldiers. For now they could make due with what they had, but any losses would be harshly felt. True, Isidoros had seen to it that things were beginning to get better, what with the Hyphyrian sheep flocks bringing mutton into the larders and cloth on the bodies. Even the potters seemed to have been able to get something done after he had given them his personal attention.

New Buildings
Gained 1x Shepherds (1d3 Supplies + 1d3 Wealth per turn)
Gained 1x Pottery Kilns (1d6 Wealth per turn, 1 Wealth Upkeep)

Turn Balance
Supplies: 2 (Stock) + 26 (Income) - 15 (Demand) = 13
Wealth: Wealth: 0 (Stock) + 12 (Income) - 2 (Building Upkeep) = 10


One matter though remained the same. The soldiers needed pay, but the chests in the palace were still too empty to properly feed them. A man who did nothing but train stayed sharp, but no one was willing to share his meager belongings for nothing but a promise of defense that might never even be necessary as far as most people were concerned. And they would be missed in other places. While Argurios wasn't quite certain about the extent of the issue, it seemed likely that some places would be bereft of workers entirely if he told the soldiers to drop the trades they had picked up and do nothing but train again. But something needed to be done all the same.

Military Upkeep and Building Cap revealed.
A city can't support more then one building per Population.
Each unit of a standing army counts as one building for the purpose of this cap. Levies don't count against it.
A standing unit costs 3 Wealth per turn to supply, a levies unit only 1 Wealth when not mobilized.
The army does not currently consume upkeep, but if battle damage is taken or the economy expands sufficiently, they will begin to need and demand payment.

Current Buildings: 8
Current Military:
- 2x Galley Squadron
- 2x Sailor Unit
- 2x Infantry Unit
- 2x Archer Unit

The military of Hyphyria is in theory a standing force, but almost all soldiers have spent their last year on other tasks. What should be done with them?

[] Leave things as they are. You can't afford a standing army right now. (All military units become Levies and will resume to slowly lose discipline and fighting ability. Military units must be mobilized before being able to fight, both in offensive and defensive engagements.)

[] Disband part of the military to fix the lack of workers and give the remainder a modest pay so that they can focus on training. (Military becomes a standing force again. Quality will be maintained and standing units will not need to be mobilized. Upkeep for standing units will be 1 Wealth per turn for the coming years.)
-[] Write-In at least one unit to disband to meet the cities demand for workers.

[] Write-In


AN: Needless to say, things would look worse the longer you would have waited with this action. As it is, you can still steer against the trend towards a lower-quality levies force, but it will cost you.
 
This is annoying.
It's also well thought-out, makes sense, and is overall good writing.
You can definitely feel Azel's presence though! Grr...
 
Good to see that it finally got through Argurios' thick skull that the rules of Greece do not fully apply here. As for the soldiers, I'm in favor of leaving them be for now, as we do not have the money to pay them. We could have Argurios drill them again in a couple of turns to prevent total disorganization, though.

[X] Leave things as they are. You can't afford a standing army right now. (All military units become Levies and will resume to slowly lose discipline and fighting ability. Military units must be mobilized before being able to fight, both in offensive and defensive engagements.)
 
By all indications we have intentionally steered away from military resolutions, so unless we intend to be more aggressive towards our neighbors, keeping them as they are isn't really in the cards. But by all indications eventually we won't be able to talk our way out of a problem and I am willing to bet the locals won't know how to deal with a real phalanx. So keeping some of our professionals seems wise.
 
[X] Disband part of the military to fix the lack of workers and give the remainder a modest pay so that they can focus on training. (Military becomes a standing force again. Quality will be maintained and standing units will not need to be mobilized. Upkeep for standing units will be 1 Wealth per turn for the coming years.)
- [x] 1x Galley Squadron
- [x] 1x Sailor Unit
- [x] 1x Infantry Unit



Reason:
- We are crap at seafaring anyway and don't really need that many sea units as we have less seafaring folks then land based ones
- For the infantry it's because they need more bronze then Archer unit's, since we lack access to bronze any loss of equipment would greatly reduce their effectiveness, therefore disbanding one of them and keeping their equipment in reserve is better then maintaining two of them
 
[X] Disband part of the military to fix the lack of workers and give the remainder a modest pay so that they can focus on training. (Military becomes a standing force again. Quality will be maintained and standing units will not need to be mobilized. Upkeep for standing units will be 1 Wealth per turn for the coming years.)
- [x] 1x Galley Squadron
- [x] 1x Sailor Unit
- [x] 1x Infantry Unit



Reason:
- We are crap at seafaring anyway and don't really need that many sea units as we have less seafaring folks then land based ones
- For the infantry it's because they need more bronze then Archer unit's, since we lack access to bronze any loss of equipment would greatly reduce their effectiveness, therefore disbanding one of them and keeping their equipment in reserve is better then maintaining two of them
I'm confused that we have a standing army at all. I suppose we are too early for the citizen hoplite? I'm also leery of disbanding ships, because there is no way we are going to be able to raise a levy of galleys if we need it. But I suppose going Full Rome and abandoning the sea might also work.
 
I'm confused that we have a standing army at all. I suppose we are too early for the citizen hoplite? I'm also leery of disbanding ships, because there is no way we are going to be able to raise a levy of galleys if we need it. But I suppose going Full Rome and abandoning the sea might also work.

Several centuries too early. This is the Bronze Age, Archaic Greece that would be separated from its classical incarnation by the gulf of the Greek dark ages.
 
I'm confused that we have a standing army at all. I suppose we are too early for the citizen hoplite? I'm also leery of disbanding ships, because there is no way we are going to be able to raise a levy of galleys if we need it. But I suppose going Full Rome and abandoning the sea might also work.
Bronze age armies are, due to the cost of equipment and the complexity of the supply chains, nearly always a standing force that recoups the costs by doing mercenary work in one of the many, many conflicts that are constantly going on. Levies are the exception, not the norm in this time.
 
[X] Disband part of the military to fix the lack of workers and give the remainder a modest pay so that they can focus on training. (Military becomes a standing force again. Quality will be maintained and standing units will not need to be mobilized. Upkeep for standing units will be 1 Wealth per turn for the coming years.)
- [x] 1x Galley Squadron
- [x] 1x Sailor Unit
- [x] 1x Infantry Unit
 
[X] Disband part of the military to fix the lack of workers and give the remainder a modest pay so that they can focus on training. (Military becomes a standing force again. Quality will be maintained and standing units will not need to be mobilized. Upkeep for standing units will be 1 Wealth per turn for the coming years.)
- [x] 1x Galley Squadron
- [x] 1x Sailor Unit
- [x] 1x Infantry Unit
 
[X] Disband part of the military to fix the lack of workers and give the remainder a modest pay so that they can focus on training. (Military becomes a standing force again. Quality will be maintained and standing units will not need to be mobilized. Upkeep for standing units will be 1 Wealth per turn for the coming years.)
- [x] 1x Galley Squadron
- [x] 1x Sailor Unit
- [x] 1x Infantry Unit

Sad as it is to do this, it also seems necessary.
 
[X] Disband part of the military to fix the lack of workers and give the remainder a modest pay so that they can focus on training. (Military becomes a standing force again. Quality will be maintained and standing units will not need to be mobilized. Upkeep for standing units will be 1 Wealth per turn for the coming years.)
- [x] 1x Galley Squadron
- [x] 1x Sailor Unit
- [x] 1x Infantry Unit
 
[X] Disband part of the military to fix the lack of workers and give the remainder a modest pay so that they can focus on training. (Military becomes a standing force again. Quality will be maintained and standing units will not need to be mobilized. Upkeep for standing units will be 1 Wealth per turn for the coming years.)
- [X] 1x Galley Squadron
- [X] 1x Sailor Unit
- [X] 1x Infantry Unit
 
[X] Disband part of the military to fix the lack of workers and give the remainder a modest pay so that they can focus on training. (Military becomes a standing force again. Quality will be maintained and standing units will not need to be mobilized. Upkeep for standing units will be 1 Wealth per turn for the coming years.)
- [x] 1x Galley Squadron
- [x] 1x Sailor Unit
- [x] 1x Infantry Unit
 
Supplies: 2 (Stock) + 26 (Income) - 15 (Demand) = 13
Wealth: Wealth: 0 (Stock) + 12 (Income) - 2 (Building Upkeep) = 10
The resources rolls were very kind this turn (26 when the avg. of 5d6+1d3 is 19, 12 and 9). I wonder if we have any bonuses to them during fall or we just rolled well.

[X] Disband part of the military to fix the lack of workers and give the remainder a modest pay so that they can focus on training. (Military becomes a standing force again. Quality will be maintained and standing units will not need to be mobilized. Upkeep for standing units will be 1 Wealth per turn for the coming years.)
- [x] 1x Galley Squadron
- [x] 1x Sailor Unit
- [x] 1x Infantry Unit
 
A city can't support more then one building per Population.
Each unit of a standing army counts as one building for the purpose of this cap. Levies don't count against it.
A standing unit costs 3 Wealth per turn to supply
Azel, how does that come together with:
Upkeep for standing units will be 1 Wealth per turn for the coming years.
And for "A city can't support more then one building per Population" - so we are at 16 building (equivalents) at the moment?
 
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