From Stone to the Stars

Redium said:

You could still lose the Star Shaman.

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Especially if we blame them for the horrific famine in the settlement that supports them.



[X] [Preach] Officially disallow the practice and work to stamp it out. (- Stability, - Legitimacy, -1 Religious Authority)
[X] [Preach] Encourage the Ember-Eyes and look to take advantage of the situation. (+ Stability)

Let us go resolutely in one direction or the other.

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Size (Expanded pool of possible Horned Riders) [Moderate]
[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)
[X] [Preach] Officially disallow the practice and work to stamp it out. (- Stability, - Legitimacy, -1 Religious Authority)

[X] [Tree] Increased Food Production (Staples: Apples, Nuts, Persimmons) [Moderate]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Climate Adaptation (Caribou can operate south of Great River in summer) [Hard]
[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)
[X] [Preach] Encourage the Ember-Eyes and look to take advantage of the situation. (+ Stability)
[X] [Preach] Permit it only with direct sanction of the Pareem. (- - Stability)

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Size (Expanded pool of possible Horned Riders) [Moderate]
[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]

While I am not particularly inclined to provoke the Island Builders, given that we don't want any more expansion for the foreseeable future and so war with them will most likely be dead men for no purpose, I expect we'll need to bleed more stability to fix our RA in the coming turns so we can't afford to drop it too much this turn.

Going size for Caribou because making them light cavalry is a long-term project and it's more important to keep them useful here on home turf than send them south with no one to ride them. War dogs is tempting, but not really necessary at present and encouraging diverse food production is good for enduring shocks to any one food supply.

Edit: Reconsidered the missionary vote. Between our heroes, legitimacy, and preparing for ordeal next turn, we should be able to tank stab hits still, and this way flexes narrative influence over the Ember Eyes and doesn't provoke the Island Makers.

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)
[X] [Preach] Encourage the Ember-Eyes and look to take advantage of the situation. (+ Stability)

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Size (Expanded pool of possible Horned Riders) [Moderate]
[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)
[X] [Preach] Officially disallow the practice and work to stamp it out. (- Stability, - Legitimacy, -1 Religious Authority)

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Hair Production (Luxuries: Gain reliable source of fibers for clothes and rope) (Easy)
[X] [Dog] War Dogs (Martial: Increase return from Warrior Clans) [Moderate]

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)
[X] [Preach] Permit it only with direct sanction of the Pareem. (- - Stability)

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Size (Expanded pool of possible Horned Riders) [Moderate]
[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)
[X] [Preach] Encourage the Ember-Eyes and look to take advantage of the situation. (+ Stability)

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Size (Expanded pool of possible Horned Riders) [Moderate]
[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)
[X] [Preach] Encourage the Ember-Eyes and look to take advantage of the situation. (+ Stability)

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Size (Expanded pool of possible Horned Riders) [Moderate]
[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)
[X] [Preach] Permit it only with direct sanction of the Pareem. (- - Stability)
[X] [Preach] Encourage the Ember-Eyes and look to take advantage of the situation. (+ Stability)
[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Size (Expanded pool of possible Horned Riders) [Moderate]
[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]

Why are we trying to convert people to our culture? We have a decentralized government, which means that settlements not conquered by force would be self-governmen and at best ask to be part of the annual meetings and accept the outcome of said meetings. And other than said control and easier alliance/communication/population movement our culture really isn't the most friendly one to have as a neighbor. Remember that people who are similar to each other still can find plenty of reasons to go to war. Especially if violence and personal glory seeking are both columns of our culture.

Edit: If anything, culture conversion most empowers our holy orders since they are the only ones that truly care about foreigners beyond the questions of resources and war prevention. And since our holy orders are multiple separate entities, of which the Ember-Eyes are the most gregarious, popular, outgoing and experienced when it comes to foreign contacts and conversions, unregulated permission to proselytize risks further upsetting the power balance between our orders. Especially since the other orders are a) being publicly punished, b) ugly and scary as hell, c) can't work their trade in the south, or d) cavebound.

Questions to @Redium:

Redium said:

We'll put that up to the fact that every nation isn't called by their actual names. The Island Makers are the Tenders of Earth, the Peace Builders call themselves the Smiling Folk, etc. You're just approximating their name in your own language, often wildly mutating it in the process.

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So the other tribes have started calling themselves distinct names other than The People? Have we as well? If yes, what and how do our people interpret the meaning of our own name? Did the two recently integrated tribes popularize their former name(s) for us?

Now that at least one of our holy orders has started independently sending missionaries, how is the state of doctrinal differences regarding the believes of the orders? Back when I asked many turns ago you said our religion wasn't developed enough for those to matter but I've got a feeling that things changed.

Does Jeree being a mystic hero mean he has actual insights into other order mysteries and secrets? Or just a better understanding of their common teachings.

What is Jeree's opinion regarding each Order?

Also a few questions from before the update:

What do the Star Shaman spend their day to day with (in practical terms) that they believe protects The People from The Hole? And how does it look when they try to "research better methods"?

Did the Mountain Tribes split over the question of whether to accept food or not? We're there additional reasons beyond that? How are the relations between the three successor tribes nowadays?

How do the Horned Riders compare to the Fang when it comes to medical knowledge?

What was the role of the non-horned rider shamans in the North and did the Horned Riders adopt any of those now otherwise extinct practices before joining us?

Rafin said:

Why are we trying to convert people to our culture? We have a decentralized government, which means that settlements not conquered by force would be self-governmen and at best ask to be part of the annual meetings and accept the outcome of said meetings. And other than said control and easier alliance/communication/population movement our culture really isn't the most friendly one to have as a neighbor. Remember that people who are similar to each other still can find plenty of reasons to go to war. Especially if violence and personal glory seeking are both columns of our culture.

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Uh, dude, its like our foreign policy. We sent missionaries to the Northlands, to the Pearl Divers and once to Arrow Lake(but we stopped and they forgot). Culture converted neighbors generate less strife due to being of similar cultures, there are less misunderstandings, and they are more likely to follow our lead as the source of religious authority.

This allows us to assimilate other cultures(like the Northlands) wholesale much later, but this is a process that will take upwards of nine turns to see through. Basically it lets us eat our neighbors while focusing on backfilling our infrastructure. Fortunately we should finish the major infrastructures by then.

And finally, we hold THE biggest temples and religious Natural Wonder of the region. We need missionaries to leverage this into spiritual and thus diplomatic importance.

The main drawback of missionaries is that increased cultural homogenization reduces technological diversity of the region, because cultures that value similar things would pursue similar technologies.
Granted, when the Bronze age rolls around whoever gets there first would do similar things too by force.

But how many more polities do we really want to eat and fully integrate into our nation right now? Not to mention that each instance of us doing this has always been through the Ember-Eyes. Now I'm okay on principle with making our oldest Holy Order the cornerstone of our future religion, but we should do so as a conscious decision on our part and aware of the consequences and of what options that would close off in the future.

Where should Luule focus and emphasize punishment?

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)

Let's finally make systemic corruption a crime. Especially when it comes to inter-clan organizations. We don't want such entities to be able to ignore the government too much. Even if they really need the meat to produce our borders of war and peace dogs.

How do the People react to the Ember-Eyes attempts to spread their stories and influence outside the tribe?

[X] [Preach] Permit it only with direct sanction of the Pareem. (- - Stability)

Personally, I don't want rampant Ember-Eye expansion without any oversight.

New Research Projects have appeared. What strikes the People's fancy?

Arboriculture

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]
[X] [Tree] Increased Sugar Production (Luxuries) [Difficult]

Coppicing seems like the nicest right now but Sugar is Difficult, meaning we don't want to wait till we need it before starting it. So I'm divided.

Caribou

[X] [Caribou] Increased Climate Adaptation (Caribou can operate south of Great River in summer) [Hard]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Size (Expanded pool of possible Horned Riders) [Moderate]

Both seem really important short term. I'm open to arguments as to why one should happen before the other.

Dog

[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]

I agree with veekie that these are the most useful for us. War dogs are enticing as well but given that the Fangs are a militarized holy order focused on dog warfare they are bound to breed their own dogs into war dogs on their own initiative at some point if only to stay relevant in war compared to the other three militarized orders.

@Redium Are we essentially making all of our dogs into herding dogs? If yes, when will having multiple different breeds of one type of animal be an option? Personally, I want the production/war split to happen as soon as possible with all of our domesticated animals, be it herding vs killing, hair and trade vs cavalry or tonnes of meat vs living siege engine.

Rafin said:

But how many more polities do we really want to eat and fully integrate into our nation right now? Not to mention that each instance of us doing this has always been through the Ember-Eyes. Now I'm okay on principle with making our oldest Holy Order the cornerstone of our future religion, but we should do so as a conscious decision on our part and aware of the consequences and of what options that would close off in the future.

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At present? Eastwards, all of the Pearl Divers out to the sea(which is large enough that we're going to need a LOT of missionaries doing their thing), Southwards, we need to take and keep both the floodplains if we want to be viable in the long run, at a minimum.

Timeline wise, this should be after the Bronze Age transition however, where we're going to zoom out a lot and our current holdings are at best, 2 provinces.

Rafin said:

@Redium Are we essentially making all of our dogs into herding dogs? If yes, when will having multiple different breeds of one type of animal be an option? Personally, I want the production/war split to happen as soon as possible with all of our domesticated animals, be it herding vs killing, hair and trade vs cavalry or tonnes of meat vs living siege engine

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We asked this before, we can't sustain multiple distinct breeds yet. The genepool isn't big enough and the concepts needed to isolate the populations don't exist yet.

Heck, we don't even control their interbreeding with the wild population, and the local wolves are basically evil because they got Smart Doggo brains without the trusting nature of Doggos.

Redium said:

Intelligence generally boosts everything. Since ravens are really smart already, however, it's not likely to be as useful in absolute terms as making, orkers more intelligent for example. If you went Intelligence -> Hunting, you would likely be able to train ravens to track down prey and then call wolves/hunters to the location by stalking the prey and crowing at it. Without the intelligence boost, they would focus more on carrion, berries and fruits, or very small animals than bigger prey. If you went Intelligence -> Messenger, then you could teach the ravens to carry short messages in their calls. They'd be intelligent enough to carry a specific number of caws from one party to another; each of which is a pre-recorded message. It's not a huge step up having the raven carry coloured stones, but damn if that would not look impressive.

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I'd imagine though that boosting Raven's intelligence should be considerably easier, given they arguably have a more "advanced" brain than we do as humans, as they don't have the restrictions on higher level thought our cerebral cortex does, thus allowing them to pack 2-4 times as many neurons as humans in the same area. What they're lacking is just the overall size of their brain, which is comparatively far simpler to breed, and with their brain architecture much more effective than doing the same procedure with other animals. From a quick googling their mating habits should also make selective breeding easier to record and manipulate, with them generally being monogamous and mating in the same location.

It's remarkable as it is how intelligent they are given how tiny their brains are, I wonder just how far you'd be willing to take long term breeding with them.

veekie said:

We asked this before, we can't sustain multiple distinct breeds yet. The genepool isn't big enough and the concepts needed to isolate the populations don't exist yet.

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Thus my question of "when". The research tree on the first page shows all of the various breed research options at (0/X) but there isn't yet a research path available for "multiple breeds" or whatever. Also, as it currently stands that would mean that breeding herding dogs would literally make all of our dogs worse at war or hunting, right? This costing the Fangs prestige in the long term.

@Redium I haven't read the updated first page until now and it has given me a few more questions.

Is our salt surplus big enough to export any of it further? If yes, do we get any profit from it, seeing how we seem to be buying it at double the value IIRC.

Does it seem like the Pearl Divers are selling their salt to any to us unknown neighbors of theirs or are we still their only human contact as far as we know?

Does No Export regarding slaves mean that we still import them? How does that look? Do the Peace Builders and Mountain Clans bring us product from their slave raids which we shruggingly accept and pay for, then convert into Debtors and put to work under Pareem supervision for an arbitrary amount of time before adopting them into our clans?

Our economy is still considered an internal gift economy despite things like weregild, distinct clans and personal property existing. Could you comment on any overt changes that happened to our People's daily economic life since the days of Aeva?
Also how does taxation work now that settlements don't have a centralized leadership anymore.

The Consequentialist Punishment trait's effect still refers to Big Men. What is its effect now that Big Men have less power and the Pareem decide stuff collectively?

The way you often describe the favored subjects of a Pareem as 'clients' makes me see them as often having a lawyer-adjacent role in society. How far off the mark am I?

Are you keeping the fluff descriptions of the Holy Orders in their original form on purpose for historic reasons or have you simply not gotten around to updating lines like "Based out of the Shrine of the Fingers,"?

What needs to happen for the Horned Riders and/or the Star Shamans to become official traits in the list of traits so as to upgrade Collection Most Holy?

Is the Mastodon still hunted so rarely it doesn't warrant being listed under Prize Animals?

Who is trying to take ravens, where'd they get the inspiration/incentive from and since when is this a thing? I have to admit that while I do read all of your posts I often only skim over the rest whenever I've been absent for a while.

I see that we have progressed on the wheel despite many cultures not discovering them till much later (especially on this continent). What is guiding us towards it? A combination of learned mystics using cavalry and dog sleds in a non-snowy environment and us having developed dedicated and unusually (for the stone age) well travelled trails?

@Redium

Two things. Considering how people are voting for both making it so that the Ember Eyes need permission from the Pareem to preach, and also at the same time want to encourage them to do it anyways. Is there a custom write in option we can go for here that officially makes it so that they need our permission while also I officially endorsing them on this?

Secondly, since Arborism is now coming into a paradigm shift, have we done enough with the materials and brick situation to avert changing our building materials back to wood?

Rafin said:

Is our salt surplus big enough to export any of it further? If yes, do we get any profit from it, seeing how we seem to be buying it at double the value IIRC.

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We don't have a salt surplus - in fact we do not produce any salt at all. On a related note @Redium, what effects does trade dominance have at our level of economic development?

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)

How do the People react to the Ember-Eyes attempts to spread their stories and influence outside the tribe?

[X] [Preach] Encourage the Ember-Eyes and look to take advantage of the situation. (+ Stability)

New Research Projects have appeared. What strikes the People's fancy?

Arboriculture

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]

Caribou


[X] [Caribou] Increased Size (Expanded pool of possible Horned Riders) [Moderate]

Dog

[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]

Rafin said:

Thus my question of "when". The research tree on the first page shows all of the various breed research options at (0/X) but there isn't yet a research path available for "multiple breeds" or whatever. Also, as it currently stands that would mean that breeding herding dogs would literally make all of our dogs worse at war or hunting, right? This costing the Fangs prestige in the long term.

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Uh:
1) Nothing to do with domestication technnology. We need a certain level of food production before its viable. Which basically means growing to the point where our entire holdings thus far is just a province. The geography and different provincial needs would shape different breeding.
2) Adaptation doesn't work like that.
-Hunting dogs would be bred for keen senses and speed.
-Herding dogs would be bred for teamwork, intelligence and generally more trusting/able to consider a broader spectrum of critters as 'pack'. They still need to chase off predators after all.
-War dogs would be bred for size and aggression.

Hunting and Herding dogs both would still be good for war, but in less significant ways, taking a tracker/harassment role rather than a war dog assault team for instance, though Hunting and War dogs would not be temperamentally suited to herding, and War dogs would probably be better big game hunters rather than suited for flushing out more practical prey. A Pet Dog in our high elitism society might well be bred into a high maintenance fluffy warhound that's both big and smart that's just too costly to feed to be practical.

Some traits cross apply, others don't.

RulerOfNothing said:

We don't have a salt surplus - in fact we do not produce any salt at all. On a related note @Redium, what effects does trade dominance have at our level of economic development?

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I know we don't produce any. My question was more whether we buy more than we use. Or in other words, if we are doing any middle man action with the salt. I mean we built who knows how many salterns for the Pearl Divers. Enough probably so that they know how to build even more if they really want to. As long as they pay for our much coveted bricks or learn how to make some themselves that is. Since they definitely can't be using all of that salty goodness themselves my question is if we use all the salt we get from them internally or if our traders and/or Pareem decide that exporting some of it further brings them more benefits than giving it out to their commoner clients.

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)
[X] [Preach] Encourage the Ember-Eyes and look to take advantage of the situation. (+ Stability)

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Size (Expanded pool of possible Horned Riders) [Moderate]
[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)
[X] [Preach] Encourage the Ember-Eyes and look to take advantage of the situation. (+ Stability)

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Size (Expanded pool of possible Horned Riders) [Moderate]
[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)
[X] [Preach] Encourage the Ember-Eyes and look to take advantage of the situation. (+ Stability)

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Size (Expanded pool of possible Horned Riders) [Moderate]
[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]

[X] [Starve] Censure the Fangs for their duplicity. (-1 RA, - - Stability)
[X] [Preach] Encourage the Ember-Eyes and look to take advantage of the situation. (+ Stability)

[X] [Tree] Coppicing (Reduced ecological impact of forestry) [Easy]
[X] [Caribou] Increased Size (Expanded pool of possible Horned Riders) [Moderate]
[X] [Dog] Herding Dogs (Staples: Increase return from Herding-type buildings) [Moderate]