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Deus Pater (Exalted/40k)

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Powerofmind said:
Counter-argument. We're still in the first days of activity. I'd rather defer the test (which is technically not even what my persuasion aims for, so I wonder if you've had a chance to read it) to a point after we've secured our local position in as close to an unassailable way as possible first.
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Alright fair enough I did not read it.
My arguement was more about establishing my position then countermanding yours.
SO!
You seem to be arguing, if I understand this right, and I don't think I do- for the Sister to weigh our years of service as proof instead of the one incident. Good argument, I think. I'm not swayed, if only because on a meta-level, your write-in is under the 'Persuade' path, and thus by that metric is an attempt to bypass the test entirely on prior good behavior.
It's something I'd almost want to put under a Comply variant.
My problem is with that meta-notion of Persuade...What does the Sister do if she agrees though? Some sort of abbreviated or 'condensed' test? Forgo it entirely and say she did? Something else entirely?
 
Powerofmind said:
Want me to re-quote Maugan on this? All the arguments I see saying not to persuade are doing so on the basis that two plus two is seven, even after the teacher said it was four.
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We're using two different versions of trap.

I'm not saying it's a trap in the sense that it's going to result in game over. I am saying it's a trap in that I'm pointing out that the sisters are following a procedure and that trying to convince them to let us go will only convince them to follow the contingency of the procedure that goes, "in the event the Dialogus has been compromised, begin purge."
 
drake_azathoth said:
There are several ways that persuade could work without leading to immediate death- starting with the aforementioned 'sisters present are persuaded, those not present are not, cue civil war'. An 'incoming arty strike' needn't be lethal given Solar survivability and the likely anticipation that psykers are squishy in comparison to power armor. And we've been told some Sisters are eager to get on the Saint train- surviving would likely be a cue for them to side with us.

I can see Persuade keeping up the quest but leading to injury and civil war super easy, that would be reasonable not a 'trap option'. I can even see it getting certain concessions. I just don't really see it ignoring the whole point of Silver Whatsit Protocol, though, which is pretty much what the write-in asks.
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The protocol does demand detainment, true, but what happens while we're detained for a week? Not to mention it's an entire week we spend doing literally nothing as per the style of the detainment. We won't grow stronger, we can't self-reflect, we can do nothing but sit and waste entire days to get this go-ahead. Apparently I'm an idiot for wanting to bend that to be less crippling. Not like that's the entire point of persuasion and the art of deal-making, trying to come up with a compromise that both parties can, if not be perfectly happy with, at least accept as reasonable. House arrest, walking with a bolter pointed at the back of our head all day, I don't particularly care, so long as they let us do stuff between administering their tests. The risk of taking that option is that it fails, and we might be somewhat more stringently tested, or held longer. The negative of persuasion is that in the event of failure, it is already compliance, but the timetables are worse for us.
Zaealix said:
Alright fair enough I did not read it.
My arguement was more about establishing my position then countermanding yours.
SO!
You seem to be arguing, if I understand this right, and I don't think I do- for the Sister to weigh our years of service as proof instead of the one incident. Good argument, I think. I'm not swayed, if only because on a meta-level, your write-in is under the 'Persuade' path, and thus by that metric is an attempt to bypass the test entirely on prior good behavior.
It's something I'd almost want to put under a Comply variant.
My problem is with that meta-notion of Persuade...What does the Sister do if she agrees though? Some sort of abbreviated or 'condensed' test? Forgo it entirely and say she did? Something else entirely?
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Nah, I'm arguing that we be allowed to continue to take actions between tests instead of sitting in a box and being fed.
FunkyEntropy said:
We're using two different versions of trap.

I'm not saying it's a trap in the sense that it's going to result in game over. I am saying it's a trap in that I'm pointing out that the sisters are following a procedure and that trying to convince them to let us go will only convince them to follow the contingency of the procedure that goes, "in the event the Dialogus has been compromised, begin purge."
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Doesn't matter what definition of trap you use since Maugan said he wouldn't do trap votes at all.
 
There are benifits to having our Emperor powers authenticated by the force that is trained to measure and recognize them, and then put out as the official judgement.

Third-party verification that our powers are genuine is going to give us a social weight that should be quite powerful.

[X] Comply
 
[X] Comply. You will go with the Sororitas, and trust that this will not mean your doom.

It's almost like we have an emperor given charm that shrugs off physical torture in the worst case- even if this does devolve into them trying to torture us, that will just make it all the more evident that we're righteous.
 
CornyBones said:
There are benifits to having our Emperor powers authenticated by the force that is trained to measure and recognize them, and then put out as the official judgement.

Third-party verification that our powers are genuine is going to give us a social weight that should be quite powerful.

[X] Comply
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Yes. I suspect literally everyone who matters knows Sororitas are hard to corrupt.

Granted, due to politics it won't matter terribly much - IoM has no issue with murdering actual Saints who disagree with dogma - but it will matter to at least some.
 
Powerofmind said:
Nah, I'm arguing that we be allowed to continue to take actions between tests instead of sitting in a box and being fed.
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Ohh...Alright. I'm...Vaguely concerned that the time between tests may not necessarily be just 'empty space' or that we can't self-reflect while we wait buuut I think I'm now on-board with your arguement enough to roll with attempting it, given the notion is to Exalted Social Combat for not eating up lots of time.
[X] Persuade. You will convince the Sororitas that such a course is perhaps unwise and certainly unnecessary. There is another way.
-[X] Know that I respect the situation you have been presented with. Were I in your place, even I, whom you know to be merciful in word and deed, would be hard-pressed not to detain and verify. But I ask also that you respect mine. I have been given this blessing for my words, and my actions. I cannot, in good conscience, sit in silence and isolation when there is yet more work to be done in His name. Have you ever had reason to suspect my message, my faith, or my flock before the Inquisitor's declaration, in all my years as Cardinal? Have not my years of loyal service in His name earned me at least the opportunity to give all I can, as long as I am able? I will not resist your tests, but I beg this, that I not be delayed from my works.
 
In simple terms, my persuasion uses a few techniques. The first, it creates empathy by accepting how the situation looks from their eyes. The second, it attempts to induce empathy in the target audience by putting them into our position (and sisters of battle suck at taking a back seat and waiting). Then, it offers credibility for past actions. Next, it absolutely does not resist their initial demand, "I will not resist your tests." Finally, it offers a beggar's request, placing all of the power of decision-making with the Sisters and putting us in a social position of submission.

Assuming robed woman chooses to allow our negotiation to go up the chain of command first, it would take no more than a day to be granted some freedom, or denied.
 
[X] Comply. You will go with the Sororitas, and trust that this will not mean your doom.
 
Well, on the bright side we at least secured the "loyalty" of the priesthood because otherwise this would be a perfect an opportunity to stage a coup.
 
ctulhuslp said:
We have no time to waste on this thisness. We do not know how long will examination take, and we need to ensure Navy does not do something dumb in the meantime.
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Meanwhile, at the Naval Base: "Non circum mei, non simias mei."
As far as the navy is most likely concerned right now, what's happening is some purely internal Ecclesiarchy stuff. Also keep in mind that the Navy does not get called in to solve problems that can be solved by bolter shells.

drake_azathoth said:
Yeah, I halfway expected this. Omega psykers are a thing.
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Omega and Omega-minus are anti-psykers. You're probably thinking of Alpha or Alpha-plus, which can do things like "Rip a warship in half, from the ground." The Imperium, as a rule, doesn't use anything higher than Delta, and Gamma/Delta level psykers are the ones seen on battlefields, hurling bolts of fell energy. Stable Beta psykers are rare, but occasionally exist. No stable Alpha psykers have been documented. (Well, okay, aside from Magnus, but that's a different can of worms)

[X] Comply. You will go with the Sororitas, and trust that this will not mean your doom.

It seems like the Canonness would really like it if we were a saint. But this is the sort of thing that one simply does not take chances on. They need to know, and know fast.
 
[X] Comply. You will go with the Sororitas, and trust that this will not mean your doom.

Institutional support of the entire organization on the planet is more valuable than trying to convince this particular group right now and potentially causing a schism, a Mina (I think that's the name of the sororitas guard with us) situation escalated to the whole hierarchy. We want the Sororitas to be as intact as possible because we want to turn them as an organization, which means going through their rules and their statutes to confirm our divinity.

This is the route which is most likely to lead to that. We can persuade them, and we can fight them, but neither of these two options will allow the Sororitas as a whole to verify who we are, and the latter will cause a big fight with the nun gunners.
 
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[X] Comply. You will go with the Sororitas, and trust that this will not mean your doom.

I had some pithy semi-IC bit of rhetoric but I lost it
 
Ultimately people who were expecting an easy turn of the Sororitas have been disappointed, but that does not mean that we should not continue down the path of turning the Sororitas. And the best, most effective way to do that is by complying. Arguments from time ignore that Persuade will not sway the institution, it will sway this particular squad, but the Sororitas are perhaps the most rule and honor bound organization in the entire Imperium, and thus it pays very well for us to follow their rules in proving our verifiable non-daemonness. The end result will, with hope, be gaining the trust of the local chapter of the most upstanding and fanatical religious order in the Imperium. This is no small thing.

Both Persuade and Fight are short-term solutions, and too piecemeal for our purposes.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Ultimately people who were expecting an easy turn of the Sororitas have been disappointed, but that does not mean that we should not continue down the path of turning the Sororitas. And the best, most effective way to do that is by complying. Arguments from time ignore that Persuade will not sway the institution, it will sway this particular squad, but the Sororitas are perhaps the most rule and honor bound organization in the entire Imperium, and thus it pays very well for us to follow their rules in proving our verifiable non-daemonness. The end result will, with hope, be gaining the trust of the local chapter of the most upstanding and fanatical religious order in the Imperium. This is no small thing.

Both Persuade and Fight are short-term solutions, and too piecemeal for our purposes.
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Yeah, we need to think about the planetary scale. A squad of Sororitas may look good on parade, but they aren't going to give us the legitimacy we desperately need.
 
I have neither the time nor the wakefulness to actually word a proper argument, but could we make the point that we agree to a Sororitas guard (ostensibly an honor guard) and continuous examination while we continue our work because if we're fake the damage we can do until we're confirmed daemon is limited, but if we're the real deal then locking us away literally just aborts the Emperor's resource-intensive gambit?
 
Phyrexian said:
I have neither the time nor the wakefulness to actually word a proper argument, but could we make the point that we agree to a Sororitas guard (ostensibly an honor guard) and continuous examination while we continue our work because if we're fake the damage we can do until we're confirmed daemon is limited, but if we're the real deal then locking us away literally just aborts the Emperor's resource-intensive gambit?
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The thing is, the damage we can do isn't particularly limited. Remember that Hitler expy from the Ciaphas Cain books? Every person they let us speak to could be exposed to corruption/brainwashed. You do not let a possible memetic threat give planetwide sermons.
 
spiritualatheist said:
The thing is, the damage we can do isn't particularly limited. Remember that Hitler expy from the Ciaphas Cain books? Every person they let us speak to could be exposed to corruption/brainwashed. You do not let a possible memetic threat give planetwide sermons.
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And he had the requirement that they had to be able to see him in person. A Solar Exalt has no such limitation. It's too bad 40k's interstellar communications are garbage, we could practically take the sector with a speech.
 
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