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Deus Pater (Exalted/40k)

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I present my persuasion on the idea that even if they say no to action freedom, we've already agreed to comply to their tests.
 
If they've already decided we're a triple plus evil Psyker, we'd be on fire right now.

This is very much the act of zealots who want to believe what they're seeing, but have been burned too often to dare do so.

And as I said, there are methods that can rapidly prove if someone's soul is in thrall to Chaos, or a Psyker using mind control for sinister purposes. They're just not commonly used because they require exceptional expertise and limited reagents. Neither of these are a factor here, so the odds of them holding us more than a week or two to prepare these are slim.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Talking is not a free action, not against SoBs who are well versed in fighting memetic hazards.
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And choices aren't traps. Persuasion is not an automatic failure, though it may be strongly penalized. And in the worst case scenario, she resists, and we had only approached from the angle of the empathetic beggar. I doubt we would be shot for begging.
 
Powerofmind said:
And choices aren't traps. Persuasion is not an automatic failure, though it may be strongly penalized. And in the worst case scenario, she resists, and we had only approached from the angle of the empathetic beggar. I doubt we would be shot for begging.
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Yes, but it does not mean choices lack consequences.

And a choice to try talking to memetic hazard containment unit is sorta...dubious.

Plus, even if it works, Canoness will just go "okay this shit is shady I need to send in a bunch of Seraphims with flamethrowers blazing". Or at least will be way more likely to do so.
 
[X] Persuade. You will convince the Sororitas that such a course is perhaps unwise and certainly unnecessary. There is another way.
-[X] Know that I respect the situation you have been presented with. Were I in your place, even I, whom you know to be merciful in word and deed, would be hard-pressed not to detain and verify. But I ask also that you respect mine. I have been given this blessing for my words, and my actions. I cannot, in good conscience, sit in silence and isolation when there is yet more work to be done in His name. Have you ever had reason to suspect my message, my faith, or my flock before the Inquisitor's declaration, in all my years as Cardinal? Have not my years of loyal service in His name earned me at least the opportunity to give all I can, as long as I am able? I will not resist your tests, but I beg this, that I not be delayed from my works.

THis is actually Even better than mine and could work
 
[X] Comply. You will go with the Sororitas, and trust that this will not mean your doom.
We are innocent- these tests SHOULD be legit, and if we do anything funny that will breed suspicion later on.
When you have a genuine test of purity and have NOT been sticking your hands in the Chaos cookie jar, take it. The trust is worth it.
 
[X] Persuade. You will convince the Sororitas that such a course is perhaps unwise and certainly unnecessary. There is another way.
-[X] Know that I respect the situation you have been presented with. Were I in your place, even I, whom you know to be merciful in word and deed, would be hard-pressed not to detain and verify. But I ask also that you respect mine. I have been given this blessing for my words, and my actions. I cannot, in good conscience, sit in silence and isolation when there is yet more work to be done in His name. Have you ever had reason to suspect my message, my faith, or my flock before the Inquisitor's declaration, in all my years as Cardinal? Have not my years of loyal service in His name earned me at least the opportunity to give all I can, as long as I am able? I will not resist your tests, but I beg this, that I not be delayed from my works.

I do not trust our safety if we are contained by these people, nor the safety of our flock.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Yes, but it does not mean choices lack consequences.

And a choice to try talking to memetic hazard containment unit is sorta...dubious.

Plus, even if it works, Canoness will just go "okay this shit is shady I need to send in a bunch of Seraphims with flamethrowers blazing". Or at least will be way more likely to do so.
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My argument is that choices aren't traps. Your argument to counter is "yeah it's totally a trap." This isn't a debate, because you're approaching it from the stance that the OP is totally lying, and he will all but guarantee lethal antagonism for making any choice other than compliance.
 
With Clergy on our side, things probably won't fall apart immediately.
Except...wait.

Maugan Ra said:
"Return to your kin, my faithful, and await my words," you say with a firm nod, turning your attention back to the crowd, "I will address this world entire within the coming days, and pass on to you what the Emperor Above All has passed on to me. For now… rest. You will need your strength."
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Will the populace throw a riot if we don't address them soon or not?
 
Powerofmind said:
My argument is that choices aren't traps. Your argument to counter is "yeah it's totally a trap." This isn't a debate, because you're approaching it from the stance that the OP is totally lying, and he will all but guarantee lethal antagonism for making any choice other than compliance.
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Maugan will not save people from trying to have their cake and eat it too. This has burned people before.
 
[X] Comply

I made a middling post not long ago about how the Sororitas are like, the one group in the Imperium most able to not get steamrollered by our shenanigans, so yeah, let's play nice.

fictionfan said:
Odd that killing him would have likely made people less suspicious. But that is the empire of Man for you.
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Killing him probably would have been taken as evidence of our hostile intent, and we really would be looking at a squad of Seraphim dropping in with flamethrowers.
 
chocolote12 said:
Maugan will not save people from trying to have their cake and eat it too. This has burned people before.
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If the universal argument of my detractors is "This is going to fuck us over in a way that will all but guarantee game-end", it's not an argument to me, because Maugan has specifically stated, and I quote,
Maugan Ra said:
I don't do trap options.
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So either find a better reason for why persuasion isn't a viable option at all (which is what you're arguing), or stop trying.
 
Crilltic said:
Keep in mind that what we're seeing here is massively discrete and deferential by the standards of the how the Sisters usually operate.
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Given that a few million furious civilians will tear them to shreds if they don't handle this with tact it's not surprising that their trying to keep this as low key as possible. If their actions are seen as persecuting an Imperial Saint then they are Done. The Imperium takes righteous fury to another level.

X] Persuade. You will convince the Sororitas that such a course is perhaps unwise and certainly unnecessary. There is another way.
-[X] Know that I respect the situation you have been presented with. Were I in your place, even I, whom you know to be merciful in word and deed, would be hard-pressed not to detain and verify. But I ask also that you respect mine. I have been given this blessing for my words, and my actions. I cannot, in good conscience, sit in silence and isolation when there is yet more work to be done in His name. Have you ever had reason to suspect my message, my faith, or my flock before the Inquisitor's declaration, in all my years as Cardinal? Have not my years of loyal service in His name earned me at least the opportunity to give all I can, as long as I am able? I will not resist your tests, but I beg this, that I not be delayed from my works.

Hmm...

On the topic of trap options; I agree that all choices are viable. Beating the sisters to a pulp; getting back on the shuttle then having the sisters hunted down to the last woman could work but would be hell to pull off (the escaping bit not the having them killed bit). Likewise a few months being tortured to be absolutely 100% definitely sure we aren't tainted could give us the possibility of social-fuing the Canoness. The problem is that being valid doesn't mean it's a good choice and frankly I think submission sends the wrong message to others. The Canoness might be serious about giving us a shot but the next Fanatic almost certainly won't. Just look at the Inquisitor; he knew we weren't heretics he just decided he didn't care. That maintaining the status quo was more important than justice.

Plus if anyone comments about us sending him packing. Well we had a crowd of thousands if not tens of thousands turning them against him would be child's play. One more attempt at murder and well. It would be messy.
 
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Powerofmind said:
If the universal argument of my detractors is "This is going to fuck us over in a way that will all but guarantee game-end", it's not an argument to me, because Maugan has specifically stated, and I quote,

So either find a better reason for why persuasion isn't a viable option at all (which is what you're arguing), or stop trying.
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My personal argument is thus:
Purity tests are a double-edged method of denouncing someone. It's scary because it's basically trusting the other guy to not fabricate evidence, and if we DO have dirty dealings it will expose them. The trade-off is that if we're clean, this lets the tester come to the same conclusion and vouch for us sincerely.
That's why I want to take it-we should be clean, and thusly it'll let these Sisters and anyone who trusts the results of that test agree we are clean and stick up for us.
Persuade I DON'T want because it opens the way for another well-meaning yet concerned or doubting person come across the fact we did that and perform another accusation, one that will be harder to dismiss because we ducked the first test.
Fighting again has the same problem- it's short-term gain, if that, for long-term weakness- if we bypass the test by clocking these Sisters upside their heads it will DEFINITELY be an incident we need to cover up. And thus falls into the problem of 'why run if you are innocent?'. Along with, yanno, knocking Sisters on their butts and possibly taking them out of commission for awhile, meaning they won't be available if something else comes up.
I want that record of purity so that we can confidently get suspicious when someone DOES question us, instead of having to sink to playing games of politics and leverage. That's the sort of thing that wastes the God-Emperor's resources on petty squabbles.
 
...Um, guys, it would be standard practice when dealing with a suspected super-persuasive psyker to outline a plan on how they'll respond ahead of time. If they are overwhelmed by our super persuasion, those present will likely try to change the plan anyway because we have such a good argument, and this will be seen as a psychic attack by the others. Cue artillery.

This is entirely reasonable in dealing with a suspected super-psyker whereas letting them continue to talk to the masses is batshit stupid.

Normally you'd expect those we persuade to realize this and act rationally, but super persuasion like we have could convince them the original plan was horrible and MUST be changed etc. Our real defense is we're not actually a psyker, but this will take some time to determine.
 
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As @Alectai said, if they were convinced we were actually a daemon we'd already be on fire at this point. As supplemental evidence of how they're not convinced they need to kill us: they didn't shoot Mina when she didn't immediately comply.

Persuade is a trap option. This is a procedure they're following. Yes they need someone to talk to the suspect, but that doesn't mean that the Dialogus can't serve an additional purpose. Namely, bait for the suspected psyker/daemon.

If the Dialogus turns around and goes, "No, hang on a minute. This guy's chill" they're going to go, "psyker/daemon confirmed" and shoot us.

Let's not give them an excuse to shoot us, m'kay?
 
[X] Comply. You will go with the Sororitas, and trust that this will not mean your doom.
I'll admit that I'm a little underwhelmed by the delay write-in -- if I were a fanatic worried about supremely persuasive chaos worshippers, I'd be more than a little skeptical of the idea that I should let them go preach to the massive fleet/the billions of people on the planet.
 
Zaealix said:
My personal argument is thus:
Purity tests are a double-edged method of denouncing someone. It's scary because it's basically trusting the other guy to not fabricate evidence, and if we DO have dirty dealings it will expose them. The trade-off is that if we're clean, this lets the tester come to the same conclusion and vouch for us sincerely.
That's why I want to take it-we should be clean, and thusly it'll let these Sisters and anyone who trusts the results of that test agree we are clean and stick up for us.
Persuade I DON'T want because it opens the way for another well-meaning yet concerned or doubting person come across the fact we did that and perform another accusation, one that will be harder to dismiss because we ducked the first test.
Fighting again has the same problem- it's short-term gain, if that, for long-term weakness- if we bypass the test by clocking these Sisters upside their heads it will DEFINITELY be an incident we need to cover up. And thus falls into the problem of 'why run if you are innocent?'. Along with, yanno, knocking Sisters on their butts and possibly taking them out of commission for awhile, meaning they won't be available if something else comes up.
I want that record of purity so that we can confidently get suspicious when someone DOES question us, instead of having to sink to playing games of politics and leverage. That's the sort of thing that wastes the God-Emperor's resources on petty squabbles.
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Counter-argument. We're still in the first days of activity. I'd rather defer the test (which is technically not even what my persuasion aims for, so I wonder if you've had a chance to read it) to a point after we've secured our local position in as close to an unassailable way as possible first.
drake_azathoth said:
...Um, guys, it would be standard practice when dealing with a suspected super-persuasive psyker to outline a plan on how they'll respond ahead of time. If they are overwhelmed by our super persuasion, those present will likely try to change the plan anyway because we have such a good argument, and this will be seen as a psychic attack by the others. Cue artillery.

This is entirely reasonable in dealing with a super-psyker.

Normally you'd expect those we persuade to realize this and act rationally, but super persuasion could convince them the original plan was horrible and MUST be changed etc.
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Not an argument. This argues that the option is a trap, and that pass or fail we will be shot dead immediately or within the next two updates. I've already pointed out that Maugan does not do that, QED this isn't a valid argument.
FunkyEntropy said:
As @Alectai said, if they were convinced we were actually a daemon we'd already be on fire at this point. As supplemental evidence of how they're not convinced they need to kill us: they didn't shoot Mina when she didn't immediately comply.

Persuade is a trap option. This is a procedure they're following. Yes they need someone to talk to the suspect, but that doesn't mean that the Dialogus can't serve an additional purpose. Namely, bait for the suspected psyker/daemon.

If the Dialogus turns around and goes, "No, hang on a minute. This guy's chill" they're going to go, "psyker/daemon confirmed" and shoot us.

Let's not give them an excuse to shoot us, m'kay?
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Want me to re-quote Maugan on this? All the arguments I see saying not to persuade are doing so on the basis that two plus two is seven, even after the teacher said it was four.
 
[X] Comply. You will go with the Sororitas, and trust that this will not mean your doom.
 
There are several ways that persuade could work without leading to immediate death- starting with the aforementioned 'sisters present are persuaded, those not present are not, cue civil war'. An 'incoming arty strike' needn't be lethal given Solar survivability and the likely anticipation that psykers are squishy in comparison to power armor. And we've been told some Sisters are eager to get on the Saint train- surviving would likely be a cue for them to side with us.

I can see Persuade keeping up the quest but leading to injury and civil war super easy, that would be reasonable not a 'trap option'. I can even see it getting certain concessions. I just don't really see it ignoring the whole point of Silver Whatsit Protocol, though, which is pretty much what the write-in asks.
 
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