[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Disperse among all of the People's settlements. (+ Martial, + Staples)
[X] [War] No.
Not exactly pleased with settling so many places at once but I fear refraining would be worse. From what I can tell the Arrow Lake site is to valuable to give up and settling it would help us establish hegemony in the east. As for the northeners I want to gain their techs which necesitates someplace other than Arrow Lake, however I also feel that the Summer Camp would be too difficult to retain control of in times of crisis. Thus I favor River Bend, it lies in our core lands while also helping us cement control over the floodplains.
EDIT: Two settlements is to much right now. Replaced settling River-Bend with dispersion among the people.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Merge into Arrow Lake's settlement. (+ Staples, + Martial, + Luxuries)
[X] [War] No.
@Japanime you have convinced me and I will support your vote.
Does this mean that arrow lake has less need for a temple as they could visit the one at the Fingers instead something that is not possible with the weeks of travel that lay between our existing villages.
Do the caps on religious authority increase as we create more settlements to spread their influence over?
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Found their own settlement at River-Bend, west of the Fingers. (++ Staples, + Luxuries, - Crafts, - Materials)
[X] [War] No.
Not exactly pleased with settling so many places at once but I fear refraining would be worse. From what I can tell the Arrow Lake site is to valuable to give up and settling it would help us establish hegemony in the east. As for the northeners I want to gain their techs which necesitates someplace other than Arrow Lake, however I also feel that the Summer Camp would be too difficult to retain control of in times of crisis. Thus I favor River Bend, it lies in our core lands while also helping us cement control over the floodplains.
An advantage of their current location that is the summer camp, is that its already substantially developed.
At the very least there is an extensive trail network cut into the northern plains, and its a territory that the North landers are intimately familiar with.
Something about preserving Holy Orders which hadn't existed previous to this turn.
But looks like 12 turns of trying to go Tall are about to go pop yes
Something about preserving Holy Orders which hadn't existed previous to this turn.
But looks like 12 turns of trying to go Tall are about to go pop yes
OK. But that does not explain keeping Arrow Lake. IF we keep it, that's where we should put the Northmen. I don't see why we're now trying to keep separate reindeer-herder and Arrow Lake settlements.
OK. But that does not explain keeping Arrow Lake. IF we keep it, that's where we should put the Northmen. I don't see why we're now trying to keep separate reindeer-herder and Arrow Lake settlements.
So a short-term fix that stretches the edges of our cohesiveness while making us a bigger target. Have I got it?
Logically, the caribou riders should reduce the 'distance' between our settlements enormously. That should mitigate some of the problem. But I'm not seeing any of that in the narrative yet.
I'd like to build trails and study travel. We're ridiculously far-flung and need to knit the thing back together. Also, reindeer-pulled sleds are a short jump away, and would make us unbeatable in winter.
So a short-term fix that stretches the edges of our cohesiveness while making us a bigger target. Have I got it?
Logically, the caribou riders should reduce the 'distance' between our settlements enormously. That should mitigate some of the problem. But I'm not seeing any of that in the narrative yet.
I'd like to build trails and study travel. We're ridiculously far-flung and need to knit the thing back together. Also, reindeer-pulled sleds are a short jump away, and would make us unbeatable in winter.
it does not. Arrow laid is literally a days walk from the fingers. If anything it's our other settlements that stretch our cohesiveness more than arrow lake would.
Something about preserving Holy Orders which hadn't existed previous to this turn.
But looks like 12 turns of trying to go Tall are about to go pop yes
Main reason I'm voting for settling Arrow Lake is that as far as I can tell the site is too good to give up. Not only would it address our luxuries shortage but the QM has also said it would greatly strengthen our defenses. In addition it is stated that we are currently in a near ideal situation to integrate it into our polity. Still you are correct that going for two settlements is way to much right now, will replace my River-Bend vote with dispersion amongst the people.
Main reason I'm voting for settling Arrow Lake is that as far as I can tell the site is too good to give up. Not only would it address our luxuries shortage but the QM has also said it would greatly strengthen our defenses. In addition it is stated that we are currently in a near ideal situation to integrate it into our polity. Still you are correct that going for two settlements is way to much right now, will replace my River-Bend vote with dispersion amongst the people.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Maintain their current summer camp as a year-round settlement. (+ Staples, ++ Luxuries, - Materials)
[X] [War] No.
Adhoc vote count started by sam5447 on Aug 29, 2018 at 12:18 PM, finished with 79 posts and 22 votes.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Upgrade the Cave of Stars into a full fledged settlement. (+ Staples, + Luxuries)
In this case, could we potentially build two Temples for a single settlement, as inefficient as it is? As, aside from the idea I put forth earlier of housing the Horned Riders with the Fangs at their Temple, which seems open for renovation due to its concept, and then moving the Fangs into the eventual Temple at Arrow Lake, I am not sure what we can do to solve this issue save create a new settlement which fits this criteria.
They are Pareem. Headmen are basically acclaimed; if you have to call yourself one, you aren't one. The position was basically subsumed and monopolized by certain families that built better client networks and could perform the work better.
Quick question about the current Arrow Lake settlement, how intact are their other structures? Such as, how intact are their farms and other producing buildings? Did they have no infrastructure or trails of their own that we could co-opt?
Arrow Lake's infrastructure would be rebuilt within a year. It's not damaged enough to cost anything to repair. The only reason it's even 'damaged' is because you're preventing them from using it. Since your tech base is still relatively primitive, there's nothing to really destroy.
When you mean second settlement for the Northlands, do you mean another settlement after the one we are deciding on right now, or is it the one we are deciding on right now?
You're not seeing the 20% research boost he's currently giving you so they seem niche. As your religion and sciences develop, Mysticism heroes will start applying to more and more actions.
It seems as if mathematical/action efficieny concern are over taking narrative.
The northlanders are a herding and hunting people, thier culture is built upon the great beasts of the plains.
The current popular proposal is throwing them down the far south.
Think what it does to a culture to be forced to march that far south to a land that is anathema to thier traditions.
Hell, even mechanic wise, the QM said that going arrow lake basically kills the tech advantages unique to northlanders.
The Northlands can adapt equally well to any of the non-Arrow Lake options. The land around the Great River they would be settling (i.e. the River-Bend, Cave of Stars, and Wide River sites) is more fertile and agriculturally productive than the periphery they currently live in. It would support their current herding activities just as well as their summer camp. The real benefit of settling their summer camp is that it gives you more access to Mastodons which provides the ability to tame them and to hunt them for luxuries (ivory and fine furs). You would still have access at non-Arrow Lake sites, but it would be noticeably less.
If you settle the Northlands internally (i.e. at River-Bend or the Cave of Stars), it's likely that they'll take their herders back and forth between Crystal Lake and the Fingers. The distance is approximately 550 kilometers so it's a very respectable range for nomads.
It's only if you settle the Northlanders at Arrow Lake that their herding will suffer. The land is simply too confined; there's low mountains to the west, south, and east. Arrow Lake itself is flat that was carved out by glaciation during the last Ice Age. The lake itself is the remains of the deepest part of the scar left in the earth by the edge of the glacier's passing.
Also: Every tile on the map is forested. It's a little bit thinner and less ecologically diverse up at the Northland's camp, but it would absolutely be considered forested. Caribou happen to be the type of animal that live in the arboreal forest as well as the tundra.
it does not. Arrow laid is literally a days walk from the fingers. If anything it's our other settlements that stretch our cohesiveness more than arrow lake would.
To nitpick: it's one day by canoe, it would be three days by walking. If you had full trails it would be a one day walk, but it would be a hard trip; only healthy, fit adults could make it. Everyone else would do it in two.
Canoes as a method of travel have the benefit that they are about 50% faster and let a team of two people carry 20 times as much stuff with a quarter of the effort. The sheer numbers of lakes and rivers around you mean that virtually everything is accessible by canoe as well.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Disperse among all of the People's settlements. (+ Martial, + Staples)
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Maintain their current summer camp as a year-round settlement. (+ Staples, ++ Luxuries, - Materials)
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Maintain their current summer camp as a year-round settlement. (+ Staples, ++ Luxuries, - Materials)
I too wish to safe The Big Fluff Boy from extinction.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Maintain their current summer camp as a year-round settlement. (+ Staples, ++ Luxuries, - Materials)
[X] [Lake] Integrate Arrow Lake into the People; have them address the lack of Materials. (+ Materials, + Craftworks)
[X] [North] Disperse among all of the People's settlements. (+ Martial, + Staples)
[X] [North] Upgrade the Cave of Stars into a full fledged settlement. (+ Staples, + Luxuries)
[X] [War] No.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Upgrade the Cave of Stars into a full fledged settlement. (+ Staples, + Luxuries)
[X] [War] No.
Adhoc vote count started by UlseDovThur on Aug 29, 2018 at 2:38 PM, finished with 88 posts and 29 votes.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
Adhoc vote count started by UlseDovThur on Aug 29, 2018 at 3:58 PM, finished with 92 posts and 30 votes.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
Adhoc vote count started by UlseDovThur on Aug 29, 2018 at 3:59 PM, finished with 92 posts and 30 votes.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
Adhoc vote count started by UlseDovThur on Aug 29, 2018 at 4:14 PM, finished with 94 posts and 30 votes.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
Adhoc vote count started by UlseDovThur on Aug 30, 2018 at 2:02 PM, finished with 113 posts and 34 votes.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
They are Pareem. Headmen are basically acclaimed; if you have to call yourself one, you aren't one. The position was basically subsumed and monopolized by certain families that built better client networks and could perform the work better.
Arrow Lake's infrastructure would be rebuilt within a year. It's not damaged enough to cost anything to repair. The only reason it's even 'damaged' is because you're preventing them from using it. Since your tech base is still relatively primitive, there's nothing to really destroy.
You're not seeing the 20% research boost he's currently giving you so they seem niche. As your religion and sciences develop, Mysticism heroes will start applying to more and more actions.
The Northlands can adapt equally well to any of the non-Arrow Lake options. The land around the Great River they would be settling (i.e. the River-Bend, Cave of Stars, and Wide River sites) is more fertile and agriculturally productive than the periphery they currently live in. It would support their current herding activities just as well as their summer camp. The real benefit of settling their summer camp is that it gives you more access to Mastodons which provides the ability to tame them and to hunt them for luxuries (ivory and fine furs). You would still have access at non-Arrow Lake sites, but it would be noticeably less.
Does settling the non-Arrow Lake sites prevent us from developing Mastodon Taming, which we are close to receiving at the moment? As the way I've interpreted this is that it is simply easier to develop Mastodon taming due to the closer proximity to them at the northern summer camp.
However, with some of this information known, this does change my ideas about this turn's vote.
If you settle the Northlands internally (i.e. at River-Bend or the Cave of Stars), it's likely that they'll take their herders back and forth between Crystal Lake and the Fingers. The distance is approximately 550 kilometers so it's a very respectable range for nomads.
It's only if you settle the Northlanders at Arrow Lake that their herding will suffer. The land is simply too confined; there's low mountains to the west, south, and east. Arrow Lake itself is flat that was carved out by glaciation during the last Ice Age. The lake itself is the remains of the deepest part of the scar left in the earth by the edge of the glacier's passing.
This particular decision is supposed to be hard; you're deciding on shinnies and sometimes grabbing everything is impossible without some degree of pain or sacrifice. You can grab everything, but that could very well mean you choke on while you try to digest things over the next few turns. Alternatively, if you play it too safe, you lose things that you never had any reason to.
Yeah I've sorta changed my mind regarding the vote now that I've had more time to sleep to process it. Right now I feel like we're trying too hard to claim all of the treasure that's being presented before us in a single turn, which could lead to the consequences indicated by the QM above, that we're biting off more than we can chew. At the same time he cautions us on playing things too safe. To me this means that we should try to do a mixture of both. While we cannot claim everything we want this turn, that does not mean we should not try to claim everything at all. In relation to that:
Essentially, there's two solutions: either commit to building a temple for the Northlands at some point in the next ~5 turns, or figure out which two choices are likely to cause the Horned Riders and Fangs to come into close proximity and end up house mates together.
While I do like the idea of having the Horned Riders and the Fangs be put in close proximity to each other, mostly because I am curious about the results. The other option of building another Temple specifically for the Northlands is viable, especially as the timeframe of 5 turns does give us some time to work with so long as we don't have too many entanglements and if we can solve our current infrastructure issues.
Here is my solution and vote for this issue:
[] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[] [North] Upgrade the Cave of Stars into a full fledged settlement. (+ Staples, + Luxuries)
[] [War] No.
Now, here me out. As others have indicated and pointed out, Arrow Lake is currently a closer settlement to us than we previously believed, one that bolsters us not only defensively as the QM said our martial hero would attest, but also economically as well, something it was noted Luule would've agreed upon. Right now we are being given the chance to construct a few new settlements, ones that we likely would not be able to do so in the future due to our current resource issues and that is only available due to two concurrent factors, the debtor status of the Arrow Lake tribesmen, and the integration of the Northlands who will be providing their own free labor to strengthen us.
In my view, by not integrating Arrow Lake as a settlement that would be one of things the QM is referring to when we are losing something we arguably had no right to lose. Arrow Lake is strategically speaking, a key focal point, one that we would need to take into account. Taking Arrow Lake bolsters the defenses of the Fingers, and essentially secures our flank in that direction, both against a potential conflict with the Pearl Divers, hey all of our other trading partners seemed to have risen up against us so this isn't too out of the question, and also the southern flank against South Reach and the Black Scars, who do not sound friendly. Politically speaking, Arrow Lake as a settlement option would also benefit the current political flare up between the Fingers and Crystal Lake, one that is as old as our civilization is really. With Arrow Lake taken it could serve the Fingers like Hill Guard serves Crystal Lake, a defensive bulwark and close ally that could be used and called upon in times of need, while also balancing out the political representation issues that they've always complained about. Finally in terms of resources, Arrow Lake is something that will likely help ease us out of our current resource troubles:
Luule would also like to weigh in: leaving Arrow Lake more-or-less intact, but supplanting their leadership, warriors, and shaman, would allow the People access to a lot more resources. Arrow Lake is rich in clay, granite, lapis luzili, limestone, (minerals in general,) wood, fish, farms (with some crops you haven't domesticated large scale) and many other necessities. Maintaining Arrow Lake in full (only replacing warriors, shaman, Pareem) would give you ~3 times the Luxuries of the Luxury Integration option and ~2 times the Materials of the Materials integration option. The more you integrate them, the less resources you would get since it's inefficient to move people around and throw away old infrastructure.
As the QM has said, taking Arrow Lake as a settlement, while it would increase our infrastructure to-do list once more, it is also insanely profitable for us in terms of rectifying our current resource woes. Currently, as everyone knows, we have moderate deficits in both materials and luxuries. By opening up Arrow Lake as a settlement and integrating it into the wider whole, I think we can solve some of our resource troubles through the materials they have to offer. In terms of luxuries, we will have full access to their lapis lazuli mines, something we had to trade for before as they were the only source. Acquiring it and having it produce the stones for ourselves would essentially ease up our luxury problems as we are now acquiring the materials at a much cheaper cost to us. Material wise, the 2X materials gained from them is also something I think that will at the very least eliminate our deficit as we've now opened up new sources of clay, granite, and limestone, the latter two of which are now available to us as we've just gotten the stonecutting technology as seen in the research tab.
@Redium By taking Arrow Lake, I'm assuming the resource structures they have available, such as say their farms, clay pits, and mines, their production won't be impacted too heavily our current resource caps right? Meaning, that they would be producing at say +5 instead of the capped +2?
Finally, in terms of staples I think while Arrow Lake does not show up as being positive in that regard, rather it comes up as neutral, Arrow Lake helps us there as well as it is positioned on that fertile plain that the QM mentioned to us before, and would likely allow us to strategically contest those agriculturally viable areas in the future. Altogether, I think taking Arrow Lake now before someone else does is something we cannot miss.
Now as for the other option I've chosen, aside from the war choice which is universally agreed upon right now, here is the main reason I am not worried about it:
The QM has stated that we could build a second Temple at another of our settlements, ones that likely already have Temples of their own. To me, this is the solution the problem we are having.
A lot of people, myself included, want to preserve the Horned Riders, as they are a Holy Order we could use to get the 5 needed to make our Holy Orders more hardy, but also a representation of the Northlands as a whole within us. However, as was noted above, this issue is not one we need to solve immediately, as it already has a condition which we understand and can deal with in the timeframe provided. I think five turns, should we spend them well, and take Arrow Lake into the fold as well, is a reasonable timeframe to build the Horned Riders, and the Northland settlers as an extension, their own Temple. With our action economy known, we should have ample resources and opportunities to build ourselves up to meet this challenge and be prepared for it, while at the same time working on our goals. With Luule as an admin hero, and Jeree as a martial and mysticism hero, they already give us three actions. Added together we have three free actions we can dedicate to whatever we wish, three empowerment actions, which while somewhat of a gamble are still pretty clear now that we've used them, and one admin, one martial, and one mysticism action which we can use. In total that is around 9 actions we should have access to for at least two more turns, as that seems to be how long our heroes will last. So while integrating Arrow Lake will increase our infrastructure costs, by also 9 actions, I do not think this is an insurmountable challenge to us.
That is partially why I chose to settle the Northlands at the Cave of the Stars. Firstly, as others have stated previously, this choice would be the most sound for us in terms of infrastructure. The Cave of the Stars already has a Temple, though that doesn't really matter as much now due to the need to build more anyways, but it also has a connection to the Fire Relay, something we will not have to worry about if we take it as an option. Taking the Cave of the Stars as the settlement choice will not heavily burden us with infrastructure as all we would really need to add to it in those terms are the Hill and kiln, as we currently already have trails for them under our current infrastructure needs anyways with them not being a settlement. With Arrow Lake serving as a source for materials and luxuries, I think it is eminently possibly to take the Cave of the Stars as a settlement.
Strategically by choosing it we would be solidifying our core. For the Northlands, they too benefit from this as is right in the middle of their range for herding, as it is smack dab in between the Fingers and Crystal Lake. Which, is also another consideration we should take in mind.
By settling the Cave of the Stars, I think we might be able to further alleviate the political tensions between the Fingers and Crystal Lake. By giving the Fingers a new partner in the form of Arrow Lake, we will now have two counter-balanced factions so to speak politically. The Cave of the Stars, if used as a settlement, would be the perfect place to serve as a bridge between the two and possibly the site of what will likely be our new capitol. Here me out on this. The Cave of the Stars is already significant both spiritually and politically due to the Temple of the Stars. We already intern some of our most honored leaders inside of there. Combining that with it's location, we should be able to utilize it's geographic position to appease both those from Crystal Lake and those from the Fingers regarding it as a site of mutual neutrality so to speak.
Finally, in terms of those wanting Mastodon, not picking the Summer Site as an option will not likely lock us out of it, for as the QM said earlier it would simply make it harder due to them being less accessible to us.
Right now, this is how close we are to gaining Mammoth Taming.
Even without the Summer Site chosen as the settlement, I think that we can easily get the 90 points needed to tame mammoths and start on their domestication if a site like the Cave of the Stars is chosen. Currently we have Jeree available who boosts our research by 20% and comes with free study options. The Summer Camp location if chosen separately is one that I think is a mistake. Infrastructure wise it is too expensive as it would add the need for not only a Temple, but also a Fire Relay pathway, a Hill, and a kiln as well, while at the same time being geographically isolated from the rest of the People.
That is why, I think the best option for us in terms of compromise is to simply vote for the Arrow Lake and Cave of the Stars options. Arrow Lake is both strategically important as well as economically rich. The Cave of the Stars is a good compromise for a new settlement as it will allow us to settle the Northlands without as much increased burden to our infrastructure, while at the same time only costing us in that we will likely need to build a second new Temple for the Horned Riders.
@racnor Apologies if I haven't gotten to your points, however, with the new info from the QM, I can safely say I've changed my mind.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Upgrade the Cave of Stars into a full fledged settlement. (+ Staples, + Luxuries)
[X] [War] No.
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Aug 29, 2018 at 2:49 PM, finished with 89 posts and 29 votes.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Maintain their current summer camp as a year-round settlement. (+ Staples, ++ Luxuries, - Materials)
