From Stone to the Stars

[X] Plan Resettling Foundations
-[X] [Kin] Embrace them fully, once the firebrand Grand Shaman is dead. (Additional settlement founded for free, Northlands folds into the People.)
-[X] [Action] Craftsmen
-[X] [Action] Archaic Charcoal Kilns (Crystal Lake, The Fingers)
--[X] Double Down
-[X] [Action] Expand Fishing Fleets
-[X] [Admin] Raise Temple (The Fingers)
-[X] [Empowerment] War Chief
-[X] [Empowerment] Headman of Fingers
-[X] [Empowerment] Frontier Leader
 
[X] Plan Resettling Foundations
-[X] [Kin] Embrace them fully, once the firebrand Grand Shaman is dead. (Additional settlement founded for free, Northlands folds into the People.)
-[X] [Action] Craftsmen
-[X] [Action] Archaic Charcoal Kilns (Crystal Lake, The Fingers)
--[X] Double Down
-[X] [Action] Expand Fishing Fleets
-[X] [Admin] Raise Temple (The Fingers)
-[X] [Empowerment] War Chief
-[X] [Empowerment] Headman of Fingers
-[X] [Empowerment] Frontier Leader
 
Taking actions increases your capacity. For example, your current capacity for Staples is ~65. Only a small portion of that is available to use on new things; most of it's already being used up feeding craftsmen or warriors elsewhere.

Is our capacity relative or is it an absolute value? For example, if our population is increasing, assuming our production of staples remains the same, would those automatic staples usages cause our economy to stay the same or relatively speaking would we be in deficit?

Also, do we still do climate rolls, and if so, how do they affect our production of Staples?

Buildings can still be locked in. You need to do three turns with every settlement having one, i.e. Turn 21-22-23 would lock in a building.

Ahhh, so Turn 24 then is the earliest then even if we completed a full Temple this turn then?

A deficit in craftworks hinders your ability to expand. Unless it becomes enormous, it would just start progressively locking you out of complicated construction projects. I.e. if you have a deficit of Craftworks, you would no longer be able to found new Settlements, Temples, Walls, or Hills. Now, if you have a craftworks deficit for a long time, that will start to negatively impact your infrastructure and cause problems. Doing into debt for one turn wouldn't hurt you too much, however.

When you mean deficit you mean outside deficit rather than within the parentheses? What would the difference be for within the parentheses deficits like right now sort of.

I am guessing then that getting something like copper tools then, tools that can be repaired unlike stone age tools would help with our craftswork by making it more efficient?

9 Trails covers: Hill Guard, Fingers, and Crystal Lake. 12 Trails covers them plus the Cave of Stars. The Cave of Stars is in a really awkward place since it isn't a proper settlement but it kind of functions like one. You should probably only need to do 9 actions here unless you upgrade the Cave to a proper settlement in the mean time.

So when we choose to do a trail action, as it didn't have us specify, do we need to specify a location?

Also, do we still have synergy in actions mechanically speaking? Such as, for example, choosing to build both a kiln and a Temple at the Fingers, by having the kiln assist with materials, would that help reduce the cost somewhat for the Temple logistically in a meaningful way?

You do still have some Craftworks available, you could build ~7 Fishing Fleets, for example and not completely deplete your supplies (there would be distribution problems, however). A Tiny Surplus, for all it does not sound impressive, is actually a lot. Most actions aren't that expensive, only a few are. For example, you could be 15 Trails for the same investment as 1 Temple.

Huh...that puts things into a different perspective. Will we ever get more concrete values with this kind of thing later on when we're more developed or will we just have to abstract and guess?

Unless you're going hog wild on really expensive actions (any Megaproject derived Extended Project, Temples, Walls, Warrior Clans, Holy Orders, etc.) you shouldn't worry too much. You'll only get in trouble there if you take tons if stuff which uses Craftworks and don't bump it up at all. If you are investing in something expensive (generally identified as something that uses 3+ resource types) then you shouldn't worry too much.

Good to know the measuring stick for an expensive project.

Capturing Arrow Lake would let you take Debtors and give you free buildings.

Does capturing it mean we have to storm it like the other settlements we've captured/sacked/razed before? Or would simply choosing the raid option, starving them out, and getting them to capitulate count as capturing Arrow Lake?


Figures, oh well, it still benefits us anyways.

Jeree would be assassinating his sister all on his own; he's pretty confident he can do it. His issue was: after he kills his sister, what comes next? He needed to have some type of alternative government structure to integrate the Northlands into which would justify his coup.

So, we kind of figured that. But what we haven't figured out is, what type of hero is Jeree? How would we utilize him if he joins us and how would he help our action economy?

Are the intrigue hero guesses correct?

Trade Caravans are you sending out trade missions to other civilizations. The more Trade Caravans that you have constructed, the higher your change of hearing interesting things going on in other civilizations.

Similar to the other actions and choices, is this simply us increasing the capacity, or more likely the number of caravans, as I would assume we wouldn't need to found too many right?

Trade caravans with say the Pearl Divers for their salt is something that likely happens passively right, with this action just being used to expand that reach of it right?

Trade Posts are where other civilizations come to you in order to trade with you. This gives other civilizations an increased appreciation for your culture and achievements.

Are Trade Posts a building or something similar to an event or festival? As that wasn't entirely made clear.

You want to have both of these in order to foster healthy trade relationships.

Since you mentioned a healthy trade relationship, how does this factor in to our previous relationships, and hypothetically could we use said trade as an active weapon/tool?

The Northlands are going to come in with their own resources and build their own settlement, at least in part. They have a lot of Staples and Luxuries, some Craftworks, but few Materials. They will work, over time, to build up their settlement. The more Materials you manage to scrounge up, the faster they come online.

So the settlement won't be immediately built then is what you're saying as we likely don't have all of the materials necessary to build it right? As I remember the clay we use for our walls seems located on our riverbeds, which likely will make it hard to come by up north.

If you assimilate them, you'll also have the opportunity to place them somewhere else later. You could settle them west of the Fingers to try and control the lowlands to the south. You could also settle them near the Cave of Stars as well, to piggyback that into a full settlement.

So taking assimilating here to mean integrating, as we are already building a settlement, or more specifically having them build their own settlement, will the options to place them somewhere else later an immediate one or a later one?

Or is this simply us getting the choice of where we are building the new Northlands settlement?

Trade works for all proximate civilizations you have contact with. Instead of specific relationships, you just trade with everyone on an ad hoc basis. It really wasn't realistic to have huge, top-down directed trading at your level of sophistication yet. Trade Posts and Caravans are more an abstraction of how much incidental trade is occurring at the edges of your civilization.

But trade happens passively regardless of what we do correct?

The benefits of additional Trade Posts and Caravans are that they each give a percentage increase in hearing about going-ons in nearby civilizations. They also slowly spread your culture to others. Trade Caravans/Posts are spread more in areas on the edge of your civilization near other civilizations.

So do additional trade caravans return us a profit of some kind? As these trade caravans seem more like diplomatic delegations than ones meant to bring back luxuries to our people if our traders are skilled enough to negotiate such.

Soft Cap means that if you build more of that particular building, then it produces much less than expected. If, at a normal level, it gives +5, after the Soft Cap, it would only give +2 and go down rapidly from there. Hard Cap means that if you exceed that, you're going to start damaging your resource, potentially destroying it.

Primarily your Soft Caps are driven by lack of Trails.

Direly Needed simply means that, if you possibly can, build this building as much as possible. Direly Needed has no relationship to the Soft or Hard Cap. It simply signifies that you really need more of a particular resource. That could be because you've hit the cap, but it doesn't have to be.

Being in dire need of something could provoke innovation, but it's much more likely to break things.

So say we built a clay pit on one turn and then a trail on the next, would that pit still produce the +2 it had during the soft cap, or would the trail increasing the soft cap making it so its not capped mean that the clay pits produce the +5 instead?

Also how do efficiency boosters like kilns fit into a soft cap?

I forgot to put them on the Informational Post. That's it really.

I think it's the front page one that's missing it.

The Northlands will come with their own resources. They have a fair amount of Staples and Luxuries. Some Craftworks as well. They would likely need Materials, however. Redlining Charcoal Kilns would be enough to supply them, however.

Is the plan I submitted for a vote enough to count as redlining the kilns? Also, what effect will that have?
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Aug 22, 2018 at 12:51 AM, finished with 203 posts and 40 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Aug 22, 2018 at 12:51 AM, finished with 7 posts and 5 votes.

  • [X] Plan Resettling Foundations
    -[X] [Kin] Embrace them fully, once the firebrand Grand Shaman is dead. (Additional settlement founded for free, Northlands folds into the People.)
    -[X] [Action] Craftsmen
    -[X] [Action] Archaic Charcoal Kilns (Crystal Lake, The Fingers)
    --[X] Double Down
    -[X] [Action] Expand Fishing Fleets
    -[X] [Admin] Raise Temple (The Fingers)
    -[X] [Empowerment] War Chief
    -[X] [Empowerment] Headman of Fingers
    -[X] [Empowerment] Frontier Leader

Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Aug 22, 2018 at 2:09 AM, finished with 11 posts and 8 votes.

  • [X] Plan Resettling Foundations
    -[X] [Kin] Embrace them fully, once the firebrand Grand Shaman is dead. (Additional settlement founded for free, Northlands folds into the People.)
    -[X] [Action] Craftsmen
    -[X] [Action] Archaic Charcoal Kilns (Crystal Lake, The Fingers)
    --[X] Double Down
    -[X] [Action] Expand Fishing Fleets
    -[X] [Admin] Raise Temple (The Fingers)
    -[X] [Empowerment] War Chief
    -[X] [Empowerment] Headman of Fingers
    -[X] [Empowerment] Frontier Leader
    [X] Plan Longer Term Foundations
    -[X] [Kin] Accept the offer, but only name Jeree Pareem. Keep the Northlanders at arms length. (Northlands become a Vassal)
    -[X] [Action] Craftsmen
    -[X] [Action] Archaic Charcoal Kilns (Crystal Lake, The Fingers)
    --[X] Double Down
    -[X] [Action] Expand Fishing Fleets
    -[X] [Admin] Raise Temple (The Fingers)
    -[X] [Empowerment] War Chief
    -[X] [Empowerment] Headman of Fingers
    -[X] [Empowerment] Frontier Leader
 
[X] Plan Longer Term Foundations
-[X] [Kin] Accept the offer, but only name Jeree Pareem. Keep the Northlanders at arms length. (Northlands become a Vassal)
-[X] [Action] Craftsmen
-[X] [Action] Archaic Charcoal Kilns (Crystal Lake, The Fingers)
--[X] Double Down
-[X] [Action] Expand Fishing Fleets
-[X] [Admin] Raise Temple (The Fingers)
-[X] [Empowerment] War Chief
-[X] [Empowerment] Headman of Fingers
-[X] [Empowerment] Frontier Leader

I guess I've already said everything I wanted to about lock-ins here.
If you assimilate them, you'll also have the opportunity to place them somewhere else later. You could settle them west of the Fingers to try and control the lowlands to the south. You could also settle them near the Cave of Stars as well, to piggyback that into a full settlement.
A slight consolation, I suppose, if the current front-runner wins; we can shove them onto the cave of stars and at least the temple will lock in. I still really wish we could just merge them into the existing settlements though.
 
[X] Plan Resettling Foundations

sounds good to me, getting the charcoal sounds like a great way to get things rolling, and if we can make the temple of stars a full settlement means we got more control over the area...unless we want to control the low-lands for food? build tall enough with that to really become a nasty problem for any bronze age attacking force?

also the craftsmen is going to get our situation with tools and other crafts under control (hopefully), as well as getting more fishing fleets cant go wrong!

raising a temple at the fingers is also good, not to mention empowering them a bit to help smooth out some feathers, not to mention hopefully we can squash arrowhead and get some debtors to get some construction projects done, maybe lots of trails? (12 of them sounds good...especially if we can get our traveling situation under control!)

also I keep wondering when will we get the dog sleds for summer to work well? maybe eventually we will find out about the wheel and things will get REALLY moving along, as with the wheel we can set up animals to carts, which in turn allows us to transport more goods around, with caribou we could use that to get carts moving along, at least for the start.
 
[X] Plan Longer Term Foundations
-[X] [Kin] Accept the offer, but only name Jeree Pareem. Keep the Northlanders at arms length. (Northlands become a Vassal)
-[X] [Action] Craftsmen
-[X] [Action] Archaic Charcoal Kilns (Crystal Lake, The Fingers)
--[X] Double Down
-[X] [Action] Expand Fishing Fleets
-[X] [Admin] Raise Temple (The Fingers)
-[X] [Empowerment] War Chief
-[X] [Empowerment] Headman of Fingers
-[X] [Empowerment] Frontier Leader

I guess I've already said everything I wanted to about lock-ins here.

A slight consolation, I suppose, if the current front-runner wins; we can shove them onto the cave of stars and at least the temple will lock in. I still really wish we could just merge them into the existing settlements though.


It makes little sense to settle them at the Cave.
Thier culture and holy order is strongly based around Nomadic life, settling them that far south basically nullifies any advantage we can gain from thier particular expertise.

As for just moving in a large population that's also foreign to a settlement all of a sudden, yeah that can't cause any problems.

It's best to leave them where they are.
 
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If we move them i would move them to wide river, between us and the pearl divers, it would increase our control of the river and its food producing foodplains and help secure the salt trade. It is also a relative short move from where they are now.
 
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[X] Plan Resettling Foundations

Close enough and I have a headache since morning so retooling to match the gap is beyond me at the moment
 
[X] Plan Resettling Foundations
-[X] [Kin] Embrace them fully, once the firebrand Grand Shaman is dead. (Additional settlement founded for free, Northlands folds into the People.)
-[X] [Action] Craftsmen
-[X] [Action] Archaic Charcoal Kilns (Crystal Lake, The Fingers)
--[X] Double Down
-[X] [Action] Expand Fishing Fleets
-[X] [Admin] Raise Temple (The Fingers)
-[X] [Empowerment] War Chief
-[X] [Empowerment] Headman of Fingers
-[X] [Empowerment] Frontier Leader
 
First, if we integrate the northlands, then why assume that they have a Staple surplus? For that matter, why assume they don't have a craftwork/material deficit that adds to ours?
Second, even if you assume that every input cost and every output result stated is 1 tier of deficit/surplus, roads also expand our farm cap. We don't need to found another settlment yet.
They have a large expanse of sparsely hunted land, as well as herds. This points to them having a Staples surplus, as well as room for expansion, as once we absorb them The Hunt also applies to their land.
As Hunting is the most lucrative food supply, rather big boosts in caloric value available expected.

Craftworks can be expected to be low, but remember their low population. its not likely to impact our general balance much because they are small nomad populations with few demand on craftworks, whereas our people use a LOT of tools to maintain existing infrastructure.

Materials is likewise expected to be low, but they aren't consuming much yet.

You do still have some Craftworks available, you could build ~7 Fishing Fleets, for example and not completely deplete your supplies (there would be distribution problems, however). A Tiny Surplus, for all it does not sound impressive, is actually a lot. Most actions aren't that expensive, only a few are. For example, you could be 15 Trails for the same investment as 1 Temple.

Unless you're going hog wild on really expensive actions (any Megaproject derived Extended Project, Temples, Walls, Warrior Clans, Holy Orders, etc.) you shouldn't worry too much. You'll only get in trouble there if you take tons if stuff which uses Craftworks and don't bump it up at all. If you are investing in something expensive (generally identified as something that uses 3+ resource types) then you shouldn't worry too much.
That points to going on a Trail Rampage while our Admin hero lives being important. Its probably the single best option for easing our resource chokes via efficiency boosts and low costs.
Frontier Leader is a combination of farmer/hunter/logger; anyone that lives on the periphery of your civilization out in the wilderness. Rural folk.
Ah, so they're likely to do Hunting, Exploring and Study Travel.
Trade Caravans are you sending out trade missions to other civilizations. The more Trade Caravans that you have constructed, the higher your change of hearing interesting things going on in other civilizations.

Trade Posts are where other civilizations come to you in order to trade with you. This gives other civilizations an increased appreciation for your culture and achievements.

You want to have both of these in order to foster healthy trade relationships.
So, basically:
-Trade Caravan - Establish a nomadic micronation which is basically a bunch of clans owing loyalty to us who'd wander around and out of our territory exchanging goods.
-Trade Post - Establish a microsettlement at a trade nexus(like the Fingers used to be) on our borders so that traders find it easier to reach us if they have a spot they can trade for food and directions.
The Northlands are going to come in with their own resources and build their own settlement, at least in part. They have a lot of Staples and Luxuries, some Craftworks, but few Materials. They will work, over time, to build up their settlement. The more Materials you manage to scrounge up, the faster they come online.

If you assimilate them, you'll also have the opportunity to place them somewhere else later. You could settle them west of the Fingers to try and control the lowlands to the south. You could also settle them near the Cave of Stars as well, to piggyback that into a full settlement.
How much of an idea of their settlement sites do we have?
Cave of Stars sounds like it'd be nasty for them to move into, their old Winter Camp sounds like a cool oasis, but an utter bitch to cut routes to.

Don't know a lot about their geography though. Is there a spot on a river network near their current places we're on we can move their settlement to?
Do they have a Natural Wonder or Holy Site?

IIRC you mentioned before they had great trails in their territory, so at least our road network isn't going to get much worse.
 
[X] Plan Resettling Foundations
-[X] [Kin] Embrace them fully, once the firebrand Grand Shaman is dead. (Additional settlement founded for free, Northlands folds into the People.)
-[X] [Action] Craftsmen
-[X] [Action] Archaic Charcoal Kilns (Crystal Lake, The Fingers)
--[X] Double Down
-[X] [Action] Expand Fishing Fleets
-[X] [Admin] Raise Temple (The Fingers)
-[X] [Empowerment] War Chief
-[X] [Empowerment] Headman of Fingers
-[X] [Empowerment] Frontier Leader
 
A couple of things I've noticed, @Redium aside from the rather one sided vote.

Building Breweries [Art] [Admin] [Vendetta] - An ingenious way to make use of food that would otherwise go to waste, the People regularly make pots full of mashed grains and water that go subtly off. The resulting drink is quite bitter, but also extremely fun! Costs: Staples, Materials. Produces: Luxuries.

I'm guessing you forgot about this in the previous update as this just showed up here, though, we probably won't take it anyway.

Out of curiosity though, how strong or tasty is our current alcohol? Does the fact that we have sugar change things compared to the alcohol made down in the Bitter-Water Tribe?

Megaprojects:

Artificial River [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] (6 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.

The Dam [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] (6 Actions) - Inspired by the feats of ingenuity demonstrated by a large, but common, rat, the People have decided to emulate their creations on a more massive scale. By blockaded a river, it would be possible to accumulate an enormous amount of water, something that could easily be put to use. Costs: Craftworks, Materials. Produces: Staples.

The World, A Shield [Supernal Symphony] [Flat Arrow Outlook] [Martial] [Admin] (12 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.

The World in Miniature [Supernal Symphony] [Diplomacy] [Admin] (7 actions) - The world is a grand place, seemingly endless in scope. The People's exploration and search for wonders has pushed them to find a way to more effectively communicate discoveries with each other. Trail markers are a start, but they are not easily portable. More can be done. Costs: Magic? Produces: Efficiency.

A Temple, Grand [Supernal Symphony] [Art] (8 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.

The Sisters Three [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] (6 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.

A Field of Gold [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] (6 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.

Just something I've noticed, but it seems like a lot of these older mega projects read like ones that have the old Supernal Symphony tag attached. Can I assume that if we did take one and build one we would be fulfilling our mastery of nature requirement?

Also, in terms of the two available megaprojects, I am curious.

Does the production of Staples from the dam impact any of our hard and soft caps or does it simply avoid that?

And as for the world in miniature, as it doesn't seem like a materially intensive project, what exactly would it's questionable magic cost be?

Just curious.
 
Is our capacity relative or is it an absolute value? For example, if our population is increasing, assuming our production of staples remains the same, would those automatic staples usages cause our economy to stay the same or relatively speaking would we be in deficit?

Also, do we still do climate rolls, and if so, how do they affect our production of Staples?

Your resources are measured absolutely. You produce X number of resources and then consume Y number. The amount you can use is X - Y.

The amount of resource that each building demands will change in the future, depending on technology and infrastructure. Getting iron or widespread use of bronze is going to make things ridiculously more productive.

Climate rolls can positively or negatively effect your Staples. Generally the type of ecological crisis will determine which resource producing buildings (i.e. farms, hunting camps, etc.) are affected. You then lose a percentage of the total value of Staples produced by those buildings depending on the severity of the crisis. This means, incidentally, that the larger you are, the more vulnerable you become to ecological disruption. Since you produce ~65 Staples across all sources, this means that even a 10% overall hit to production is going to hurt. When you have 200 Staples produced, it's going to hurt even more. Maintaining some surplus of Staples is good, just in case.

Ahhh, so Turn 24 then is the earliest then even if we completed a full Temple this turn then?

No. 20-21-22: turn 22 would be the earliest if you finished a Temple this turn.

When you mean deficit you mean outside deficit rather than within the parentheses? What would the difference be for within the parentheses deficits like right now sort of.

I am guessing then that getting something like copper tools then, tools that can be repaired unlike stone age tools would help with our craftswork by making it more efficient?

A Deficit outside parenthesis means that everyone is short on that type of resources. A (Deficit) means that access to resources are spotty. The amount of resources necessary are there, but people are being forced to go without sporadically due to problems with distribution. If you're building a wall with (Deficit) of Materials, it means that work has to stop and start because you'll be working only to suddenly not receive bricks for six months.

Copper is going to dramatically reduce your Craftworks cost in general once you get widespread access to it. Bronze and, especially, iron are going to be turbo charging things.

So when we choose to do a trail action, as it didn't have us specify, do we need to specify a location?

Also, do we still have synergy in actions mechanically speaking? Such as, for example, choosing to build both a kiln and a Temple at the Fingers, by having the kiln assist with materials, would that help reduce the cost somewhat for the Temple logistically in a meaningful way?

The trails are tied to a location as a consequence of the current system, but I simply put it where it's most beneficial to you automatically.

I don't think there's synergy any more. Think about making a kiln; yes, it will help you make bricks, but it doesn't help you make bricks at the same time as you building a wall simultaneously.

I track resources on a settlement level and on the whole. As long as your settlements don't have a deficit of something beyond a hidden threshold controlled by technology and infrastructure, it isn't an issue. Unless it's Staples. You never want to do that with Staples.

Huh...that puts things into a different perspective. Will we ever get more concrete values with this kind of thing later on when we're more developed or will we just have to abstract and guess?

Absolutely. Once you manage to hit the Palace Economy in the Bronze age, you will know more or less exactly.

Does capturing it mean we have to storm it like the other settlements we've captured/sacked/razed before? Or would simply choosing the raid option, starving them out, and getting them to capitulate count as capturing Arrow Lake?

It depends on Arrow Lake, to be honest. When they're nearly starved out, they'll either surrender or try and break out in a pitched battle. You're not actually going to have to storm the walls.

So, we kind of figured that. But what we haven't figured out is, what type of hero is Jeree? How would we utilize him if he joins us and how would he help our action economy?

Are the intrigue hero guesses correct?

If you fully assimilate the Northlands, you will get him as a Hero.

He is not an Intrigue Hero. You need more sophistication for that to be possible.

Similar to the other actions and choices, is this simply us increasing the capacity, or more likely the number of caravans, as I would assume we wouldn't need to found too many right?

Trade caravans with say the Pearl Divers for their salt is something that likely happens passively right, with this action just being used to expand that reach of it right?

More caravans will always be better. There is a Soft Cap, but until you hit that, more will continue to improve your situation.

Yes.

Are Trade Posts a building or something similar to an event or festival? As that wasn't entirely made clear.

They're actually in the Marketplace building chain. They're closer to a location where people gather to trade. There will be festivals held at them, but only because that's where lots of people gather.

Since you mentioned a healthy trade relationship, how does this factor in to our previous relationships, and hypothetically could we use said trade as an active weapon/tool?

Using trade specifically as a weapon will require more sophistication. You need Bronze to really make trade warfare effective.

I turned your existing trade relationships into a number of Trade Posts and Caravans and planted them where it best reflected how people traded with you.

So the settlement won't be immediately built then is what you're saying as we likely don't have all of the materials necessary to build it right? As I remember the clay we use for our walls seems located on our riverbeds, which likely will make it hard to come by up north.

The speed of settlement construction is dependent on how many resources you have at surplus. Having a lot means that settlements will be founded in fewer turns.

So taking assimilating here to mean integrating, as we are already building a settlement, or more specifically having them build their own settlement, will the options to place them somewhere else later an immediate one or a later one?

Or is this simply us getting the choice of where we are building the new Northlands settlement?

Placing the Northlands will be voted on immediately next turn.

But trade happens passively regardless of what we do correct?

Yes.

So do additional trade caravans return us a profit of some kind? As these trade caravans seem more like diplomatic delegations than ones meant to bring back luxuries to our people if our traders are skilled enough to negotiate such.

Trade Caravans tend to consume more than they give, just on their own. You need a combination of Caravans and Posts in order to generate net stats.

So say we built a clay pit on one turn and then a trail on the next, would that pit still produce the +2 it had during the soft cap, or would the trail increasing the soft cap making it so its not capped mean that the clay pits produce the +5 instead?

Also how do efficiency boosters like kilns fit into a soft cap?

If you exceed a Soft Cap and then you improve your infrastructure, you buildings will begin producing their full amount.

Kilns don't produce resources; they lower the cost of already existing buildings. They don't really intersect beyond Kilns allowing you to get more bang for your buck at a certain number of Materials buildings.

So, basically:
-Trade Caravan - Establish a nomadic micronation which is basically a bunch of clans owing loyalty to us who'd wander around and out of our territory exchanging goods.
-Trade Post - Establish a microsettlement at a trade nexus(like the Fingers used to be) on our borders so that traders find it easier to reach us if they have a spot they can trade for food and directions.

Yes, more or less.

How much of an idea of their settlement sites do we have?
Cave of Stars sounds like it'd be nasty for them to move into, their old Winter Camp sounds like a cool oasis, but an utter bitch to cut routes to.

Don't know a lot about their geography though. Is there a spot on a river network near their current places we're on we can move their settlement to?
Do they have a Natural Wonder or Holy Site?

IIRC you mentioned before they had great trails in their territory, so at least our road network isn't going to get much worse.

The Northlander's winter campsite is located far to the northwest on a flat area of land that has few lakes and extremely thin forests. There's an enormous amount of game that moves constantly east-west across the entire range. The Northlanders don't really know what to tell you beyond that. There are people to the west and further north that the Northlands know about, but they've had relatively little contact with them

Your hunters feel some distant sense of familiarity in the region, but they're not sure what it is. They know, absolutely, it is a place they've never been before, but there's some hidden similarity to home.

To get to the winter camp, the Northlanders basically follow the river/lake network north-northwest until it ends. Their camp is spread widely outwards from that point. They have holy sites up there, but the Northlands are willing to adopt yours if they assimilate. They have no Natural Wonders.

You have basically five locations you could settle the Northlands: the Cave of Stars, west along the Great River near where the River-Bend tribe used to reside, east in between you and the Pearl Divers, south at Arrow Lake's northernmost settlement, or at their current location in the summer camp.

Voting is Closed!
 
The Northlander's winter campsite is located far to the northwest on a flat area of land that has few lakes and extremely thin forests. There's an enormous amount of game that moves constantly east-west across the entire range. The Northlanders don't really know what to tell you beyond that. There are people to the west and further north that the Northlands know about, but they've had relatively little contact with them

Your hunters feel some distant sense of familiarity in the region, but they're not sure what it is. They know, absolutely, it is a place they've never been before, but there's some hidden similarity to home.

To get to the winter camp, the Northlanders basically follow the river/lake network north-northwest until it ends. Their camp is spread widely outwards from that point. They have holy sites up there, but the Northlands are willing to adopt yours if they assimilate. They have no Natural Wonders.

You have basically five locations you could settle the Northlands: the Cave of Stars, west along the Great River near where the River-Bend tribe used to reside, east in between you and the Pearl Divers, south at Arrow Lake's northernmost settlement, or at their current location in the summer camp.
Winter site is volcanic isn't it?

Hmm, lets see based on the map:
-Cave of Stars
--Pro: Bridges gap between the Crystal Lake to Fingers route.
--Pro: Already has a Temple, just needs Hill and Kiln
--Pro: On river route, easy to supply
--Mixed: Biome is between their native biome and our forested one. Cave of Stars is a short tributary to the northern plains.
--Con: Immediate area is agriculturally poor due to Cave emissions
--Con: Likely to lose control of the furthest northern reaches of their land.

This is the choice for maintaining Build Tall Strategy, it helps make sure our civilization is tied together and isn't TOO bad for preserving their skills and culture.

-River Bend
--Pro: On River route near Crystal Lake
--Pro: Same biome as Northlands used to have based on the map.
--Mixed: Largely unexplored
--Con: Widens rift with Fingers as the center of civilization skews strongly to Crystal Lake

-Summer Camp
--Pro: Same biome
--Pro: Maintains control over original territories
--Pro: Maintains original trails
--Con: This is horrible agriculture land
--Con: Accessed only through tributary route to Fingers
--Con: Gives the rift WEIGHT as the Fingers will actually have power to contest Crystal Lake from here.

These two choices are oriented towards projecting control over the northern nomadic tribes and preventing a new one from coming down or reforming.

-Pearl
--Pro: Progress towards absorbing Pearl Divers
--Pro: Progress towards claiming eastern floodplains
--Pro: Minor river route to their old summer camp, helps retain control of their old lands
--Con: Heavily forested near settlement site.
--Con: Gives the rift WEIGHT as the Fingers will actually have power to contest Crystal Lake from here.
--Con: Settling in a whole bunch of former nomads next to Pearl Divers will likely create an incident or three.

-Arrow Lake
--Pro: Seize their unique resource
--Pro: Gives us a grip on the floodplains
--Con: Probably would force us to expand sooner or later, in self defense, because their southern portion is not going to let this go.
--Con: Likely to lose control of the furthest northern reaches of their land.

These two choices are a distinct shift towards Build Wide.
 
Your resources are measured absolutely. You produce X number of resources and then consume Y number. The amount you can use is X - Y.

The amount of resource that each building demands will change in the future, depending on technology and infrastructure. Getting iron or widespread use of bronze is going to make things ridiculously more productive.

So do we know in absolute terms how many buildings we have at the moment aside from the megastructures or constructions at our settlements like walls and Temples?

As while it doesn't show on any of our stats that we have farms and clay pits, I am assuming we do actually have them right?

I'm just guessing that at this point we just don't have enough sophistication to know in totality how many of each and where they are located, right?

Climate rolls can positively or negatively effect your Staples. Generally the type of ecological crisis will determine which resource producing buildings (i.e. farms, hunting camps, etc.) are affected. You then lose a percentage of the total value of Staples produced by those buildings depending on the severity of the crisis. This means, incidentally, that the larger you are, the more vulnerable you become to ecological disruption. Since you produce ~65 Staples across all sources, this means that even a 10% overall hit to production is going to hurt. When you have 200 Staples produced, it's going to hurt even more. Maintaining some surplus of Staples is good, just in case.

Good to know, kind of figured that would be the case here. Looks like we should probably be working on increasing our soft caps and Staples surplus, as while the weather hasn't turned on us recently, all it takes is one bad roll.

Incidentally, how much of our current Staples surplus is being used to feed the Mountain Clans?

No. 20-21-22: turn 22 would be the earliest if you finished a Temple this turn.

The speed of settlement construction is dependent on how many resources you have at surplus. Having a lot means that settlements will be founded in fewer turns.

So, say we do rush build and complete the Temple this turn, with said completion taking place during one of the sub-turns, as we are said to "have" the building among all three of our current settlements, would that count towards the construction of the new settlement that we will need for the Northlands?

Such as if we finish the building the Temple this turn, and the time it takes the new Northlands settlement to be constructed is 3 turns, would that mean that because the new settlement is still under construction, that the Temple would still be locked in and added to the new Northlands settlement as it is being finished?

Similarly, if we say took and used the debtors we will get from Arrow Lake to rush build a free Hill in the Fingers during say sub-turn 20.1, and it finishes in 20.2, will the same lock in timer still be in effect: 20-21-22?

A Deficit outside parenthesis means that everyone is short on that type of resources. A (Deficit) means that access to resources are spotty. The amount of resources necessary are there, but people are being forced to go without sporadically due to problems with distribution. If you're building a wall with (Deficit) of Materials, it means that work has to stop and start because you'll be working only to suddenly not receive bricks for six months.

How does this apply to our current situation with craftworks then? As we have a tiny outer surplus but a tiny inner deficit?

How big of deficits do we need to have in say materials, which we have right now, before it starts affecting things like the number of actions needed to complete something?

Copper is going to dramatically reduce your Craftworks cost in general once you get widespread access to it. Bronze and, especially, iron are going to be turbo charging things.

Would it be enough to outright say turn a tiny surplus into a moderate one due to the tools having more endurance and longevity?

The trails are tied to a location as a consequence of the current system, but I simply put it where it's most beneficial to you automatically.

Ahh, okay, good to know. We don't have to min-max that much then.

I don't think there's synergy any more. Think about making a kiln; yes, it will help you make bricks, but it doesn't help you make bricks at the same time as you building a wall simultaneously.

So we no longer need to worry about chaining actions together to achieve any narrative synergy?

That makes sense though.

I track resources on a settlement level and on the whole. As long as your settlements don't have a deficit of something beyond a hidden threshold controlled by technology and infrastructure, it isn't an issue. Unless it's Staples. You never want to do that with Staples.

Gotcha, starvation bad.

I'm curious though, will those hidden thresholds for resources apply to us say if we choose to focus explicitly on a certain settlement, like say the Fingers?

As since this decision is coming from the top down, I am assuming that any deficit said settlement would have in producing materials to say construct a Temple or Hill would be taken from the other settlements right?

Absolutely. Once you manage to hit the Palace Economy in the Bronze age, you will know more or less exactly.

I'm assuming there are more than just a few intervening economic systems that lie between our current one and the Palace Economy correct?

It depends on Arrow Lake, to be honest. When they're nearly starved out, they'll either surrender or try and break out in a pitched battle. You're not actually going to have to storm the walls.

Good, just wanted to make sure.

I'm guessing there will be some kind of morale roll or something to determine if they surrender or try for a breakout right?

If you fully assimilate the Northlands, you will get him as a Hero.

He is not an Intrigue Hero. You need more sophistication for that to be possible.

Gotcha, so not intrigue hero.

Is he a diplo/martial hybrid hero then?

More caravans will always be better. There is a Soft Cap, but until you hit that, more will continue to improve your situation.

Yes.

Do we need to know, in this instance, how many caravans we do have or are we not sophisticated enough to manage that and simply have to deal with abstracts?

They're actually in the Marketplace building chain. They're closer to a location where people gather to trade. There will be festivals held at them, but only because that's where lots of people gather.

So, how is a Trade Post related to the Trade Hub building listed under the Fingers in the settlement tab?

Using trade specifically as a weapon will require more sophistication. You need Bronze to really make trade warfare effective.

So, since we're the primary point of contact and trading partner with the Pearl Divers, could we not use salts trending status against other civilizations by limiting their access to it?

As in the 19.2 update it was alluded that we did that with salt to Arrow Lake, who we were at war with, would that not allow us to do something similar to others and give them stability damage?

I turned your existing trade relationships into a number of Trade Posts and Caravans and planted them where it best reflected how people traded with you.

So our trade status has just stayed like the previous status quo, we just now need to manage it differently?

Trade Caravans tend to consume more than they give, just on their own. You need a combination of Caravans and Posts in order to generate net stats.

Are trade posts buildings we need to specify where we put them, like with walls and kilns, or are they more like farms where we can build as many as we want until we hit a cap?

If you exceed a Soft Cap and then you improve your infrastructure, you buildings will begin producing their full amount.

Gotcha, so even if we say built a clay pit while hitting the soft cap, as soon as we increased said cap through new trails, it would produce the +5 instead of +2.

Kilns don't produce resources; they lower the cost of already existing buildings. They don't really intersect beyond Kilns allowing you to get more bang for your buck at a certain number of Materials buildings.

So, to give an example, say our existing clay pits were only producing at +2, producing the kilns wouldn't make the clay pits produce more, just hit at their soft cap and allow them to produce +3 due to being more efficient right?

The Northlander's winter campsite is located far to the northwest on a flat area of land that has few lakes and extremely thin forests. There's an enormous amount of game that moves constantly east-west across the entire range. The Northlanders don't really know what to tell you beyond that. There are people to the west and further north that the Northlands know about, but they've had relatively little contact with them

Oh joy, the dangers of the Canadian Steppe.

Your hunters feel some distant sense of familiarity in the region, but they're not sure what it is. They know, absolutely, it is a place they've never been before, but there's some hidden similarity to home.

I kind of want to explore there now.

To get to the winter camp, the Northlanders basically follow the river/lake network north-northwest until it ends. Their camp is spread widely outwards from that point. They have holy sites up there, but the Northlands are willing to adopt yours if they assimilate. They have no Natural Wonders.

Makes sense as we are assimilating them.

You have basically five locations you could settle the Northlands: the Cave of Stars, west along the Great River near where the River-Bend tribe used to reside, east in between you and the Pearl Divers, south at Arrow Lake's northernmost settlement, or at their current location in the summer camp.

Two questions.

Is the settlement area that is east near the Pearl Divers part of that fertile flood plain you mentioned?

And, when you mean south at Arrow Lake's northernmost settlement, do you mean we'd simply be taking it from Arrow Lake then?
 
Free walls and a mine!

Well yeah, that too, but depending on how the QM answers some of the questions I gave him, I might actually want to wait a little bit and create a settlement whole cloth so that we can prolong the countdown timer enough so that by the time the new settlement finishes, say in three turns, either the Temple and/or Hill will be locked in.

Considering how the QM mentioned earlier that if we beat Arrow Lake, which he sort of implies we will as he is offering that as a possible settlement location already, then we likely could still keep our tall strategy intact so long as we use the debtors we get from them to construct a new hill or something so that all three of our current settlements have the structures we want. Hopefully if we do that, and can keep the new Northlands settlement from being built under three turns, we should have the Hill and Temple locked in.
 
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