Even Further Beyond [Complete]

This thread should also keep in mind that we have chosen the Overlord : Archsmith build and archetype.

Our artifacts were supposed to supplement for Beyond points to an extent, so that we can save the BP for Truth or philosopher king.
 
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Tracking Pulse has amazing synergy with Open The Way and Mordant Fire. With Fire, we have easy way of threatening defeated Bleak Ravens into giving us information about objects we can detect with Tracking Pulse, which will then allow us to teleport there immediately. Upon capturing weaker patrol, we bully them into giving us information about locations of some of their Dao Cleavers or rooms closer to their leader; while we can't scan for Cultivators directly(presumably, although it's possible that Potentation would allow us to find people up to Soul Chrysalis), we can have them describe something like desk or chest to us, allowing us to pinpoint the room we can jump to. Then we Open The Way, allowing us to both dodge a good chunk of dungeon, and be the one forcing the engagements rather than other way around. This should help a ton with safety of our teammates, and should allow us to clear our way to the boss.

Beyond that, we could try and be cute with Guise. Turning one of our allies into someone locally famous, such as powerful Cultivator, might help a ton by causing enemies to hesitate. That will both cause them to be less likely to target affected character and will allow us to act while they are caught off guard. In addition, higher Cultivators can hide their power level, which will also help with this scam. Depending on local situation, this might allow us to bully various Bleak Ravens into going against their boss, giving us money and information and so on, which is very Nameless thing to do.

Finally, we are not helpless in actual combat. While our fighting experience is non-existent, there are the ways we could deal with Bleak Raven boss. In particular, we could try to fight him and then use our Ring so we can catch him off guard with teleport, teleproting both of us as high up as humanly possible. As in, actually Potention boost the spell so we add more distance he'll need to fall for. Then, while we are freefalling, we just Open The Way out and leave him to slowly fall down the earth, allowing us to enter the Vault in meantime. Granted, this still requires us to get him through the portal and him to lack way to fly, air-step or otherwise accelerate his way past terminal velocity, but it's still one way i could see us eking the win out of this situation, with "victory" being us getting into Vaults without losing our life or our allies.
 
I don't think moving of Xiaoling has many downsides, tbh. Boosting Spoiled could even be a good thing, since it could make Nameless decide to return to the comforts of home early.
 
To be fair, if we're doing all of that, we're not actually progressing much towards True Alchemist--which is the benchmark we should be gunning for in my opinion.

Well, yes and no. We're not progressing directly, but cultivating four or five times as fast makes it much faster (and much cheaper) to grab True Alchemist when we do go for it.

The artifacts also make the next artifact cheaper in terms of time to make. If we don't make all of them, I'd at least make the Potentiation artifact, as that could improve so much else.

We aren't actually in debt. We just don't have much money right now.

Mastermind Point debt.

Tracking Pulse has amazing synergy with Open The Way and Mordant Fire. With Fire, we have easy way of threatening defeated Bleak Ravens into giving us information about objects we can detect with Tracking Pulse, which will then allow us to teleport there immediately. Upon capturing weaker patrol, we bully them into giving us information about locations of some of their Dao Cleavers or rooms closer to their leader; while we can't scan for Cultivators directly(presumably, although it's possible that Potentation would allow us to find people up to Soul Chrysalis), we can have them describe something like desk or chest to us, allowing us to pinpoint the room we can jump to. Then we Open The Way, allowing us to both dodge a good chunk of dungeon, and be the one forcing the engagements rather than other way around. This should help a ton with safety of our teammates, and should allow us to clear our way to the boss.

So, you want to declare open war on a sect with no justification while in the territory of another great clan? Have you forgotten that Grandpa will kill us if we embarrass the clan? There's a reason that Nameless' father scammed cultivators in other regions. He didn't go on smash and grab raids.

Also remember that a Reality Formation cultivator could kill us if he catches us.

Beyond that, we could try and be cute with Guise. Turning one of our allies into someone locally famous, such as powerful Cultivator, might help a ton by causing enemies to hesitate. That will both cause them to be less likely to target affected character and will allow us to act while they are caught off guard. In addition, higher Cultivators can hide their power level, which will also help with this scam. Depending on local situation, this might allow us to bully various Bleak Ravens into going against their boss, giving us money and information and so on, which is very Nameless thing to do.

Won't work, as they'll sense that their Cultivation bases are too low, and probably that their cores are too strong to be using the local cultivation method.

Finally, we are not helpless in actual combat. While our fighting experience is non-existent, there are the ways we could deal with Bleak Raven boss. In particular, we could try to fight him and then use our Ring so we can catch him off guard with teleport, teleproting both of us as high up as humanly possible. As in, actually Potention boost the spell so we add more distance he'll need to fall for. Then, while we are freefalling, we just Open The Way out and leave him to slowly fall down the earth, allowing us to enter the Vault in meantime. Granted, this still requires us to get him through the portal and him to lack way to fly, air-step or otherwise accelerate his way past terminal velocity, but it's still one way i could see us eking the win out of this situation, with "victory" being us getting into Vaults without losing our life or our allies.

A Reality Forming cultivator would probably splatter us all over walls if we let him get anywhere near to that close.
 
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Ah, but the question is whether it's worth a Beyond point, especially given they stack in efficiency. There will always be a tempting opportunity to enhance the short-term with a Beyond Point, and, knowing this tendency, Rihaku made it so that Beyond Points get better the more that are used at a time. It's up to us to ignore what's in front of us (which is really hard since we know exactly what we're getting) in exchange for greater power in the long term.

It doesn't offer us a Beyond Point though. It offers us Beyond Point progress, no more, no less. It's not utterly without value, but Beyond Points aren't our current bottleneck--we only strictly need two in the foreseeable future to achieve True Alchemist, which is likely our best means to comprehensively acquire power by the time the Heroine goes live.

Instead, he offers us a chance to automatically achieve an optimal outcome with a complicated topic, which synergizes with actually taking this element of the plot by the throat--playing up our Overlord nature while secretly stacking the deck in our favor, and effectively paying off our Mastermind Point debt in the process, which means we'll be able to start generating them again--and once a year, we can turn 2 MM points into a BP anyway.

Taking out a Loan? We hurt our Clan's Face and affirm Spoiled--and while this isn't as terrible an outcome as if we actually took Grandpa Yong as a Mentor, it's still not something desirable as it'll make it harder to get support from them later on. Mooch off of Xiaoling? That just keeps us treading water and all but guarantees a Spoiled proc.

Scamming replenishes our reserves, gains us valuable information, has at least a decent chance of acquiring normal Treasures, and a small chance of a Priceless Treasure--which is something comparable to BP in value. And as I said, tactically speaking, it synergizes impressively well with also approaching these guys directly, because it gives us the chance to stack the deck in our favor before they even know we're fucking around with them.
 
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What's our Base Cultivation level? (Before perfected stages and whatnot.)

Feasible to rush Peak Soul Chrysalis?
 
One to boost Greater Refining
One to boost Potentiation
One to boost Quickening.

Then our cultivation speed will hopefully go from our current x6 to x24 or even more.

That's 3 artifacts to go to x24. We have to do that at Soul Chrysalis, since going down Organ Refining is inadvisable. At current multipliers, it takes 5 months to go up to Soul Chrysalis peak. So that's 5 + 2.5 +1.25 months to get the three artifacts. Almost 9 objective months.

Or we could get the Beyonded Sarcophagus and go from x6 to x35 straight away (70/2 due to night limitation). With potential to stack with mastered Greater Refining for another x1.2 to x2 on top, for x42 to 70. Then make an artifact for the Sarcophagus to stack another multiplier on top. The example artifact had it go from x40 to 5x365/31 = 58x, an improvement of around 50%. Now at x63 to 140. Find a source of perpetual moonlight, and it's at 126 to 280. Sarcophagus has crazy potential.
 
but Beyond Points aren't our current bottleneck
I'm sorry, what?
Scamming replenishes our reserves, gains us valuable information, has at least a decent chance of acquiring normal Treasures, and a small chance of a Priceless Treasure--which is something comparable to BP in value. And as I said, tactically speaking, it synergizes impressively well with also approaching these guys directly, because it gives us the chance to stack the deck in our favor before they even know we're fucking around with them.
And it wastes a ton of time on dumb and pointless shit when we could actually be advancing ourselves.
 
The sooner we get done with Vane and go to the Imperial Centre to join a Sect to properly cultivate and learn their Forbidden Techniques, the less salt will be generated due to Liches.
You're speaking more and more stupid shit it's amazing.
And it wastes a ton of time on dumb and pointless shit when we could actually be advancing ourselves
Oh, you mean dumb and pointless like going to hunt Liches?
 
It doesn't offer us a Beyond Point though. It offers us Beyond Point progress, no more, no less. It's not utterly without value, but Beyond Points aren't our current bottleneck--we only strictly need two in the foreseeable future to achieve True Alchemist, which is likely our best means to comprehensively acquire power by the time the Heroine goes live.

Beyond Points are always a bottleneck, since we're going to need more of them for spells in the immediate future. I mean, if we get a spell with a Beyond or Further Beyond better than Llewyn's Might, we're going to need the BP to take it, while still maintaining our goals of True Alchemist. We're unlikely to follow a strict plan to only spend BP on True Alchemist, so we need all the BP we can get, assuming that's the optimal choice.

Lich Stronghold was a BP-heavy choice, and we're going to need to match that. It'll be very awkward if everything goes well, we get into the Stronghold, only to fall flat due to not having enough BP.

Oh, you mean dumb and pointless like going to hunt Liches?

If you can't be not salty for a single post, you should just not post in order to not incite everybody else away from whatever you vote.

the less salt will be generated due to Liches.

There will always be salt. It's not up to the our story not to generate salt but up to the people themselves to stop being childish and move on.
 
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I'm sorry, what?

And it wastes a ton of time on dumb and pointless shit when we could actually be advancing ourselves.

It would be active adventuring for a month so would actually earn half a Beyond point/a Mastermind Point. It would also give us the resources we need to cultivate, and possibly treasures as well.

That's 3 artifacts to go to x24. We have to do that at Soul Chrysalis, since going down Organ Refining is inadvisable. At current multipliers, it takes 5 months to go up to Soul Chrysalis peak. So that's 5 + 2.5 +1.25 months to get the three artifacts. Almost 9 objective months.

Yes, and it earns back 702 potential months of Cultivation over the remaining time until the Heroine awakens. A seventy eight fold payback ratio is well worth it. Now we won't be cultivating full time, but it should also gain 78 months of subjective time we can do anything in.

Or we could get the Beyonded Sarcophagus and go from x6 to x35 straight away (70/2 due to night limitation). With potential to stack with mastered Greater Refining for another x1.2 to x2 on top, for x42 to 70. Then make an artifact for the Sarcophagus to stack another multiplier on top. The example artifact had it go from x40 to 5x365/31 = 58x, an improvement of around 50%. Now at x63 to 140. Find a source of perpetual moonlight, and it's at 126 to 280. Sarcophagus has crazy potential.

It might take many, many objective years to research Sarcophagus though. No one else knows the spell.

Lich Stronghold was a BP-heavy choice, and we're going to need to match that. It'll be very awkward if everything goes well, we get into the Stronghold, only to fall flat due to not having enough BP.

You're counting your chickens before they hatch, by assuming we're going to get to the Liches stronghold in a reasonable amount of time.
 
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Now that I think about it, confidence is important when it comes to scheming. Let's not interact with more people than we have to and get the liches quickly. If we're lucky we'll even reduce spoiled.

[x]Stealth Insertion
[x]Mooch off Xiaoling
[x] +40% Beyond Point Progress
 
Besides, since we have missed out on the exclusive Vane Cultivation legacy, we should anyway get this done and leave Vane asap. Everything Vane has Cultiavtion wise Yongshan or Centre can do better.

We came here to take advantage of all the relics of the past and all the knowledge they had--a well defined and good reason. I'm not wasting another 4 months traveling (somewhat less due to increased Cultivation) in order to accede to the childish, unsupported salt that some people cannot hold in.
 
Oh, you mean dumb and pointless like going to hunt Liches?
That's not addressing the point i've raised, seeing how we are bound to do that anyway.
It would be active adventuring for a month so would actually earn half a Beyond point/a Mastermind Point.
Which means dick when we can adventure in ways that are actually efficient and still get same points. As for other part of your post, we already choose not to take option that earns us ton of Cultivation materials. Doing shittier version of it instead of focusing on task at hand sounds pretty damn pointless.
 
I'm not salty.

I'm pissed. Because idiots are saying making spoiled worse is a GOOD idea and insisting on learning forbidden techniques, when SUIZHEN IS A PART OF OUR PARTY.
Fair enough, join the sect with a Titan to properly Cultivate without learning Forbidden Techniques.

I'll note that torturing Forbidden Tech users for their techs and then using them had no stated impact on Suizen loyalty tho.

(Didn't that option enhance it, actually?)
 
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You're counting your chickens before they hatch, by assuming we're going to get to the Liches stronghold in a reasonable amount of time.

Perhaps, but I want to prepared to go Further Beyond on something else just in case something catches our eye (a Further Beyond Forge dramatically altered our capabilities!) and to have a buffer for the EFB given how tempting immediate options are to us. I understand your view, and I want to agree with it, but I'm feeling a bit pessimistic about our voting patterns.
 
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I'll note that torturing Forbidden Tech users for their techs and then using them had no stated impact on Suizen loyalty tho.
It's a technique for increased Cultivation speed and poison immunity. It'll help her Cultivation speed if used properly and punishes them.

She's a hypocrite if it helps her revenge.
 
I suspect forbidden techniques have a price for the advantages they offer. I am not sure how useful they will for someone who wants the 'perfect foundation' or whatever.

We came to Vale for Spells, dungeons and Heroine. We need to take full advantage of this before moving on.
 
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We came here to take advantage of all the relics of the past and all the knowledge they had--a well defined and good reason. I'm not wasting another 4 months traveling (somewhat less due to increased Cultivation) in order to accede to the childish, unsupported salt that some people cannot hold in.

And we're doing that now with this choice. When we've done so, it's time to leave. The plan was apparently only ever to spend around a year on this phase of the adventure, and with it being six months travel time each way to where we are, this is pretty much it for the place.

Which means dick when we can adventure in ways that are actually efficient and still get same points. As for other part of your post, we already choose not to take option that earns us ton of Cultivation materials. Doing shittier version of it instead of focusing on task at hand sounds pretty damn pointless.

We can't. The downside that Rihaku told us about the Scam approach is that it takes a month and the other options don't spend that time. That means that Scamming earns us an extra Mastermind point compared to the others. They presumably take a few days and then we switch back into timeskip, with less mastermind points gained.

We now have the choice to multi-task to get some useful Cultivation materials while chasing the pot of Diagram spells at the end of the rainbow.

And scamming is a way of focusing on the task on hand. It's a slower, but I think more reliable way of gaining access to the Lich, if there is one.

I suspect forbidden techniques have a price for the advantages they offer. I am not sure how useful they will for someone who wants the 'perfect foundation' or whatever.

If we scam this sect into giving up their knowledge, I would hope that the extra knowledge about cultivation helps us optimise our own path. It's not certain, of course, but then nothing is.
 
And we're doing that now with this choice. When we've done so, it's time to leave. The plan was apparently only ever to spend around a year on this phase of the adventure, and with it being six months travel time each way to where we are, this is pretty much it for the place.

We're staying in Vane for a year and half, as Rihaku mentioned, with options to extend as needed. So they'll necessarily be more relics of the past to access. This'll take at most half a year, I think, so we'll still have 2 major choices left, if this trend continues.

If we scam this sect into giving up their knowledge, I would hope that the extra knowledge about cultivation helps us optimise our own path. It's not certain, of course, but then nothing is.

Given how it weakens their foundation, I'm skeptical, but if there's no cost to it happening, there's also no real harm in scamming them their secrets as a side-benefit.
 
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I suspect forbidden techniques have a price for the advantages they offer. I am not sure how useful they will for someone who wants the 'perfect foundation' or whatever.
We learned Forbidden Techniques from our Mom in DLYW, and also spent a BP on in perfect Ego Barrier. No effects on Foundation.

(Also, if Suizen gets triggered by our Mom or something, it's going to be pretty bad. We need to work in mitigating that soon)
 
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