Even Further Beyond [Complete]

[X] Stealth Insertion
-[X]Expend a Mastermind Point: Guarantee safe and quiet entry into the pocket dimension, if one exists. If one does not exist, Nameless will have a significantly improved chance to figure out what is going on.
[X] Mooch off Xiaoling
[X] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free (you must choose this option to Expend any Mastermind points this update)

Be all stealthy to redeem ourselves from mooching off Ming! It's foolproof!

More seriously though about the option the "Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free" seems to be the best choice at the moment unless we go "Pass + Eyes" (and none of our big planners are supporting that route). Gameplay balance-wise I'm sure I'm missing something. @Rhihaku can you go more in detail about those bottom options?
 
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We've so far committed eight months, one sixth of our entire time adventuring, on this excursion. The question is whether to double down in the hopes of getting super lucky with Diagram magic, or whether to diversify the risk so that we at least make some minimal level of profit for an additional month's investment along with an extra chance of getting something else really useful.

Baelixnaire was an Arch-Diviner, an Arch-Necromancer, and a Chronarch. He specialized in these spells, passing many of them onto us in the form of an amazing Quickening and Lichdom. These titles imply the other Archmages have different specialties that come with different titles that we can learn. So yes, there is good reason to suspect that the Liches have very interesting spells for us to learn, since not all of their specialties match Baenlixnaire's. Consider that we're rather lacking in many of the Signs, right now, with only 9 Signs and spells in specialties that Baelixnaire did not focus in occupying many of them.

Compare Baelixnaire's Deliberation or Quickening, spells in his area of specialty, with our pathetic tracking pulse. The only way we'll find higher-tier spells without years of research is to find these Liches, and given that those spells are high-tier, it's very prudent to save BP for them.

I mean, imagine a Baelixnaire's Deliberation with a BP point! That's the kind of specialized spell we're seeking to boost. Or consider the Quickening BP boost we applied, a spell also in Baelixnaire's specialty, that obviously deserved a BP.

because Diagram research doesn't count as intensively as 'work' for him due to A Total Bookworm.

Very interesting for future reference. It seems Nameless enjoys Diagram research.
 
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What's our Beyond Point count?

You have 1 and change.

Baelixnaire was an Arch-Diviner, Arch-Necromancer, and Chronarch. He specialized in these spells, passing many of them onto us in the form of an amazing Quickening and Lichdom. These titles imply the other Archmages have different specialties that come with different titles that we can learn. So yes, there is good reason to suspect that the Liches have very interesting spells for us to learn, since not all of their specialties match Baelixnaire's. Consider that we're rather lacking in many of the Signs, right now, with only 9 Signs and spells in specialties that Baelixnaire did not focus in occupying many of them.

You have 10 Signs, you're only missing the last Ascendancy Sign.
 
He probably won't do nothing, he may even get some training in there, but there is no way he's going to train the entire time. Human psychology simply doesn't work that way outside of extreme outliers, which he is not. Nameless was working over twenty hours a day on the trip here, it's a miracle he hasn't procced Spoiled yet - the only reason he didn't is because Diagram research doesn't count as intensively as 'work' for him due to A Total Bookworm.

I assume Cultivation does count as work? I wonder if consuming sufficiently valuable cultivation resources in a suitably luxurious Vault could mitigate that, as it's so decadent.

Diagram mages have 30+ spell slots. They can survive against the vast majority of Cultivators with two: Lichdom and Vault of the Ur-Pharoah. Getting two spells of that power is not easy and death is still possible, of course.

That still leaves them without motivation to develop esoteric attacks. What's the point? As you've just said, they just need Vault and Lichdom to survive against low level Cultivators, and they'd never tag a non-scrib cultivator with an esoteric attack. Who were they going to be using these spells on. Thirty plus spell slots isn't actually that much, and there must be plenty of utility spells to fill them with, whether it's mind control to keep mortal or bestial servants in line, or energy fields to create traps, or even city nuking spells of pure force to use to kill cities of mortals.

Yes, but developing Cultivation is completely orthogonal to their original purpose. Your concern was why a Lich would bother making a spell to improve Cultivation speed. The answer is that they didn't make such spells for that reason. But that doesn't matter. You can turn a sword into a plowshare with some hammering.

My point is that we've plucked the low hanging fruit for things that are obviously directly applicable, between making it easier to find cultivation reagents, making it easier to grow them, upgrading them, and directly modifying the flow of time.

What's left that's so clearly dual-use? I don't see Diagram Magi benefiting from a a Grand Diagram of Force that rearranges the local ley lines to create an improved cultivation area, as they're not dependent on external energy supplies to develop like cultivators. Why should we expect that there are such things that coincidentally happen to have unintended synergies.

Baelixnaire was an Arch-Diviner, Arch-Necromancer, and Chronarch. He specialized in these spells, passing many of them onto us in the form of an amazing Quickening and Lichdom. These titles imply the other Archmages have different specialties that come with different titles that we can learn. So yes, there is good reason to suspect that the Liches have very interesting spells for us to learn, since not all of their specialties match Baelixnaire's. Consider that we're rather lacking in many of the Signs, right now, with only 9 Signs and spells in specialties that Baelixnaire did not focus in occupying many of them.

We have ten of the signs, not nine. They're sure to have spells we can learn. We've no reason to think that any particularly lich will have anything useful or interesting.

Some lich somewhere might, but we can't choose who to approach. Meeting one random lich doesn't give us access to the entire library of potential spells every lich knows.

Compare Baelixnaire's Deliberation or Quickening, spells in his area of specialty, with our pathetic tracking pulse. The only way we'll find higher-tier spells without years of research is to find these Liches, and given that those spells are high-tier, it's very prudent to save BP for them.

I mean, imagine a Baelixnaire's Deliberation with a BP point! That's the kind of specialized spell we're seeking to boost.

Our unmastered Tracking Pulse is only a Sigil, not a battle diagram or grand diagram. Of course it's much worse. We know there's no Beyond Point option for Baelixnaire's Deliberation.
 
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We've so far committed eight months, one sixth of our entire time adventuring, on this excursion. The question is whether to double down in the hopes of getting super lucky with Diagram magic, or whether to diversify the risk so that we at least make some minimal level of profit for an additional month's investment along with an extra chance of getting something else really useful.

As Rihaku as mentioned, the "something really useful" (Priceless Treasure) is worth less than a well-placed Spell, especially with BP. If our Quickening was an artifact, its grade would be PRICELESS PRICELESS TREASURE. And this in addition to the fact that we have a low chance of getting that treasure. A low chance multiplied by a mediocre result equates a low expected value for the decision to gamble on a Priceless Treasure.

You have 10 Signs, you're only missing the last Ascendancy Sign.

...shame on me for relying on an outdated Character Sheet.
 
I believe we are at 1, after spending one on Potentation.

Also people, don't forget that direct approach both grants us a MM and skews the destiny to helps us out. We only need to make plans so our Lieutenants don't get snipped.

We could try casting boosted Guise on them, making it hard for enemies to discern which is which. Thinking about it, while we can't hide Ring, there's nothing saying that we can't copy it's life, even if it's natural allure remains out of our reach...

That's about it? We really can't do much outside punching, Mordant Fireing and casting Illusions, huh.
 
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[X] Direct Investigation

If overawing him with our last names doesn't work we might want to try to form a coalition of the other sects in the area, to use as backing. Doubt they want their rival to get too big a boost.

[X] Take Out a Loan

If things go well for us here then the minor prestige hit will be easily cancelled out, if they don't we'll have bigger things to worry about. The sheer ease of this option makes it the winner.

[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress

Need to stoke the flames.
 
[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
-[X] Spend a Mastermind Point
[X] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free
 
That still leaves them without motivation to develop esoteric attacks. What's the point? As you've just said, they just need Vault and Lichdom to survive against low level Cultivators, and they'd never tag a non-scrib cultivator with an esoteric attack. Who were they going to be using these spells on. Thirty plus spell slots isn't actually that much, and there must be plenty of utility spells to fill them with, whether it's mind control to keep mortal or bestial servants in line, or energy fields to create traps, or even city nuking spells of pure force to use to kill cities of mortals.

Even though it might not be futile, hate and vengeance are powerful motivators to develop such attacks. If Diagram magi cannot brute-force Cultivators, the next best thing is to use esoteric attacks to kill them. Even if its unfinished, we may find their notes useful, as we found Baelixnaire's notes on Quickening useful.

My point is that we've plucked the low hanging fruit for things that are obviously directly applicable, between making it easier to find cultivation reagents, making it easier to grow them, upgrading them, and directly modifying the flow of time.

This is the point I can't find myself agreeing with. We did indeed puck the low-hanging fruit of what Baelixnaire knows, but he's only one man with limited specialties, and we're clueless on what other synergies there may be with powerful spells in other categories that Baelixnaire did not know. Remember the Liches were out of contact for thousands of years, and they spent much of that researching without communicating that research.

Some lich somewhere might, but we can't choose who to approach. Meeting one random lich doesn't give us access to the entire library of potential spells every lich knows.

But the odds are highly favorable the remaining Liches are not scrubs given their survival. The odds are also stacked towards their specialties (probably more than one, given Baelixnaire had at least 3 and was not the greatest among the Liches) not coinciding perfectly with Baenlixnaire's specialties, meaning new powerful spells for us.

We know there's no Beyond Point option for Baelixnaire's Deliberation.

Hence, "imagine." I'm just pointing out what an upgraded specialized spell could look like.
 
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Mm, Rihaku, is it possible to boost Pulse so it can track Soul Chrysalis or Dao Cleaving tier people. I'm trying to think a way to cheese the dungeon with Pulse+Teleport.

Speaking of which, how many of Dao Cleaving level opponents can we even expect? I don't think that there will be more than five or seven, tops, even with accelerated Cultivation.
 
What's left that's so clearly dual-use? I don't see Diagram Magi benefiting from a a Grand Diagram of Force that rearranges the local ley lines to create an improved cultivation area, as they're not dependent on external energy supplies to develop like cultivators
Multiplying kinetic energy on hit, since Cultivation specialises in physical attacks in this story.

Esoteric offense vectors (we know they exist, Crown of Alvan is one of them. It scales with our perfect Ego Barrier too).

That still leaves them without motivation to develop esoteric attacks. What's the point? As you've just said, they just need Vault and Lichdom to survive against low level Cultivators, and they'd never tag a non-scrib cultivator with an esoteric attack. Who were they going to be using these spells on.
Because they were at some point a strong martial culture who destroyed all other paradigms of magic, killed the Orcs, etc.

Spells developed in those times should be available to people a thousand years old.

They don't know it scales with Cultivation, since they cannot Cultivate. However, we may find out how to scale esoteric attacks like we did for Alvan's Crown using Ego Barrier.
 
You have 1 and change.

Okay then. I might have mixed up this Quest with another one that has a similar mechanic.

In that case, we kinda want more than one before we enter the lair and we do know MM points help generate Beyond points so...

[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
-[X] Spend a Mastermind Point
[X] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free
 
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Even though it might not be futile, hate and vengeance are powerful motivators to develop such attacks. If Diagram magi cannot brute-force Cultivators, the next best thing is to use esoteric attacks to kill them. Even if its unfinished, we may find their notes useful, as we found Baelixnaire's notes on Quickening useful.

We know, and they know, that esoteric attacks are pointless against decent level Cultivators as they can't hit them in the first place. That's why it's a waste of effort and a spell slot to develop them when you could instead keep it for something that would actually be useful.

These are magical terrorists. Their game is killing off cities of mortals and scrub tier Cultivators, people they don't need esoteric attacks to kill, just large scale area effect attacks.

Basically, there's no one for the Diagram Magi to target with these effects

This is the point I can't find myself agreeing with. We did indeed puck the low-hanging fruit of what Baelixnaire knows, but he's only one man with limited specialties, and we're clueless on what other synergies there may be with powerful spells in other categories that Baelixnaire did not know. Remember the Liches were out of contact for thousands of years, and they spent much of that researching without communicating that research.

Why would a Death spell help with Cultivation speed for example? What's the reason to believe that there's some unlooked for synergy amongst the other Signs? Chronomancy is obviously beneficial, as is Transformation and Divination.

Because they were at some point a strong martial culture who destroyed all other paradigms of magic, killed the Orcs, etc.

Spells developed in those times should be available to people a thousand years old.

They don't know it scales with Cultivation, since they cannot Cultivate. However, we may find out how to scale esoteric attacks like we did for Alvan's Crown using Ego Barrier.

Grandpa Yong is over five thousand years old. Baelixnaire was over seven hundred years younger. They defeated the other external magical disciplines thanks to their mastery of dispelling. Given they could break their enemies' defences that way, and then kill them with conventional blaster magic, why would they need to develop esoteric attack forms?

We're also talking about enemies defeated before the Diagram was Ascendant, several thousand years before the Cultivators arose. Is there any reason to believe that there are any liches surviving from those pre-ascendancy days? The Diagram were a strong martial culture once, but they became lazy and complacent, which is why the Cultivators could develop for hundreds of years unmolested.

Yeah, Alvan was merely the Fifth Scourge of the Diagram Realms! At least four other Scourges should have possessed unique spells.

And those spells would survive because... We're dealing with the remnant of a remnant of a remnant of a world spanning Empire. Nearly everything that they were is lost to the sands of time.

You're essentially going all in on an option that we have literally no idea what the distribution of pay offs are. I'm at best hoping to get a Beyond Vault out of this.

Besides, we can upgrade virtually any Diagram with Artifact.

Only if we Cultivate, which the thread is generally unwilling to do, and spend large amounts of time to create the artifact. We generally don't have time for artifact creation on spells that don't pay back more time than was invested in Cultivation and Artificing to make them.
 
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In that case, we kinda want more than one before we enter the lair and we do know MM points help generate Beyond points so...
They can only be exchanged to BPs in certain scenarios(or once per year with Deliberation), so if you want more BPs, actually getting option that just gives you them is most efficient solution.

Besides, you are not getting MM, you just get to pick MM option without spending one.
Only if we Cultivate, which the thread is generally unwilling to do.
Nonsense. We want to get Philosopher King, which more or less forces us to create Artifacts in order to yo-yo around Cultivation stages. We should most definitely look for opportunities that lets us spend Artifacts on upgrading them later on.
 
[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Take Out a Loan

[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress

Was going to vote Scam because it would find it amusing, but who cares about three million people, honestly? Direct Investigation is buffed by our archetypal choice, pays off Mastermind Debt so we don't have to worry about it anymore, and may give us more influence towards the region. It's also the most interesting, in my opinion. Philosopher-King+Spells make us very BP hungry, so we kind of need to recoup after spending it on Potentiation. This ia basically the maximum plot option, tbh, and I don't mind that.
 
Nonsense. We want to get Philosopher King, which more or less forces us to create Artifacts in order to yo-yo around Cultivation stages. We should most definitely look for opportunities that lets us spend Artifacts on upgrading them later on.

The thread explicitly voted last turn to stop investing in Cultivation and Artifice and instead make Diagram magic the centrepiece of our power. That pretty much eliminates Philosopher King from consideration unless Nameless changes his mind.

Even if we did manage that, extensive continued investment in Diagram Magic to the exclusion of all else will lead us to simply run out of time at this rate, unless we're very lucky with what spells the liches we happen to find have.
 
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The thread explicitly voted last turn to stop investing in Cultivation and Artifice and instead make Diagram magic the centrepiece of our power. That pretty much eliminates Philosopher King from consideration unless Nameless changes his mind.

Even if we did manage that, extensive continued investment in Diagram Magic will lead us to simply run out of time at this rate, unless we're very lucky with what spells the liches we happen to find have.
Silly Alratan! Don't you know flavor text means nothing?

Unless it helps their argument. Then it's the word of the gods, unable to be argued with!
 
Why would a Death spell help with Cultivation speed for example? What's the reason to believe that there's some unlooked for synergy amongst the other Signs? Chronomancy is obviously beneficial, as is Transformation and Divination.

To be honest, a Death spell, Lichdom, already almost doubled our Cultivation speed. Let's not forget that. But Death isn't the only Sigh. Force, Space, and Stone all seem to be very viable Signs for which there could be synergies. It would be nice if we actually had someone who was an expert in those fields...

And those spells would survive because... We're dealing with the remnant of a remnant of a remnant of a world spanning Empire. Nearly everything that they were is lost to the sands of time.

Given the desperation of some of the Liches, they very well could have re-researched those spells based on descriptions, even assuming there weren't records of them. And given that Alvan's Crown survived, why ignore the possibility of other ones surviving? We don't even know if the Fifth Scourge is the last--there could even be ten, with recent ones being more likely to survive. There's at least four very interesting spells out there.
 
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My own votes are aimed towards increasing our Cultivation speed, and I don't care whether the best option shows up under Diagram, Cultivation, or Artificing. That should be entirely irrelevant to the decision. (BTW, the best one we know of is the Beyonded Sarcophagus)
 
Reminder to the Diagram hunters that:

A: There is no guarantee of a Litch in there.

B. It's entirely possible the Litch we find is of a lower tier than our mentor.

And C. Even if we find a more powerful Litch there, there's no guarantee that it will have anything we'd find useful.

So if this whole thing ends up a waste of time, you can only blame yourselves.
 
The thread explicitly voted last turn to stop investing in Cultivation and Artifice and instead make Diagram magic the centrepiece of our power. That pretty much eliminates Philosopher King from consideration unless Nameless changes his mind.

Oh please! Even if we go by the blurb, that doesn't mean mono-focusing and ignoring investment in others. Our plan is to build up modifiers and then accelerate training quickly, before building up more multipliers and repeating. And given Philosopher King is literally turning Nameless's projected world (remember, his Dao is that of the Diagram) into a massive Diagram, that's hardly incompatible with our choices.

So if this whole thing ends up a waste of time, you can only blame yourselves.

Depends on the type of failure. If the spells are useless, I'll blame myself. Failures relating to getting in and I'll have to start blaming dice rolls.
 
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