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Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest

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Angelform said:
We are not here to help them. We are not here to cut a deal or to negotiate a settlement. We are here to deliver an ultimatum. (And most likely declare war.)
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Economic support + Virmire-Favored trade agreement doesn't actually help the Lystheni. It makes them a de-facto economic vassal of ours.

The trade agreement devastates their economy, while the payments make their government dependent on ours. Look at what the US government is able to do by providing funding to its constituent states. The federal government can threaten to pull funds if one of them tries to deviate from federal policy*. We can do the same if the Lystheni try to work against our interests in the future.

*The most famous example is the NMDA of 1984. The federal government lacked the constitutional authority to enact a national minimum drinking age, but they did have the authority to withhold highway funds from states that refused to comply. Faced with losing a significant source of revenue, the states quickly "volunteered" to meet the new standards.
 
Simon_Jester said:
@PoptartProdigy ... The trouble is, if we expect the Dalatrass to be capable of surprising us with her demands, and it would be folly of us not to expect that, how Mira reacts isn't just a question of the list of things Mira MIGHT be willing to give the Lystheni.

We can, with a little difficulty, agree on what we want from the Lystheni. We can agree on what sticks we're willing to threaten with, and what carrots we're willing to offer in principle under at least SOME conditions.

But we cannot possibly make a sane attempt to precommit to which carrots we're willing to give out, without talking about the relationship between which of those carrots we give out, and which concessions the Lystheni make.

For example, if the Lystheni ask to simply join Virmire society (unlikely but let's roll with it), we'd want to make a certain set of conditions. Like "okay, but we demand that you do XYZ, allow us to sweep all your stuff for traps and bugs, et cetera." If the Lystheni ask for access to a certain planet, we'd be willing to grant it under different conditions. And so on.

On the other side of the equation, if the Lystheni reveal they have a secret supernova weapon pointed at Virmire's sun, it would significantly change the carrot/stick calculations and Mira's list of "things I am willing to do" would be apt to evolve very rapidly in one way or another.

The price the Lystheni have to pay is inherently tied up in the nature of what they want. Just as the price we have to pay is tied up with what we want.

...

So it's a bit unclear to me how we can accurately represent Mira's mindset going into these negotiations as a laundry list of things she'd purely hypothetically be willing to concede to the Lystheni, without the context of when or why she'd make those concessions.




EDIT:

Another problem is that the Lystheni have so many terminal break points it's hard to figure out a plan that gives us a workable modus vivendi with them without crossing one or more of those break points.

I mean, just telling us why they're even here is a terminal break point for them, which is just about unprecedented in the history of Earthly nations and in most of science fiction, for example. How do you negotiate peaceful coexistence with someone who won't even answer the question "so, what are you guys up to with all this stuff that looks like it miiiiight be pointed at the back of our heads during our war for survival?"

All in all, they're kind of terrible neighbors, and their most firmly defended prerogative (total secrecy) makes it very hard to trust them to keep up their side of a bargain. If they'd just unbend enough that we could be reasonably confident they were dealing with us in good faith, there'd be a lot more room for coexistence.

Can they do that? I don't know. They seem to have been an isolated commune of fanatics for so long that it's interfering with their ability to think coherently about the outside galaxy and how to interact with it.

[Which incidentally we may want to view as a cautionary tale ourselves]
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Primarily, my reasoning for presenting this list now is due to sentiments like this one:
Angelform said:
We are not here to help them. We are not here to cut a deal or to negotiate a settlement. We are here to deliver an ultimatum. (And most likely declare war.)
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Which, I stress, is not an invalid sentiment. It is, however, illustrative: for some people, right off the start, going into things, there are some concessions or demands that are flat unacceptable no matter what. Just as the Lystheni have break points, so too might the voters (by way of Mira). The Lystheni's break points exist in a vacuum of all the things they might expect you to demand of them; so too might yours exist in the absence of knowing what precisely the Lystheni desire.

Now, the opposite might also be true; some people might go into this saying that they have no intrinsic break points, and thus want absolutely everything on the table. That is as equally valid a sentiment as the above one.

Thus, presented with a spectrum of equally-valid opening stances, I am presenting the voters with the opportunity to choose between them.
 
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redzonejoe said:
Do not demand to have Virmirian merchants freed. Instead declare that any of our civilians who are killed will be repaid in kind, magnified. Otherwise, we'll limit our war targets to obvious military threats and blockades. Alternatively, prisoner exchange, our merchants for their spies.
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This will just breed hate for the MC among the affected people and groups and drives them into the opposition parties which will support a harder line.

I think also that we are all making a dangerous assumption here that their idea of 'reasonable' will be the same as ours as it has been pointed out these people are more of a cult than an actual government this worries me in the sense that we may be potentially driving them into the role of a persecuted minority in their eyes and forcing them to strike back in other ways which we may not be able to counter in time.

Also, the whole religious angle is worrying as well the last thing we need is a kind of religious war which will result in heavy loses for us and massive ones for them.
 
As expected, a complete mess. Not surprised at amount of gun waving.
Adhoc vote count started by VoidZero on Feb 24, 2018 at 1:16 PM, finished with 11155 posts and 41 votes.
  • [X] Plan Damocles
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    --[X] A Lystheni-funded network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister on the Lystheni's dime).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
    [x] Plan Hammer Time
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    --[X] A Lystheni-funded network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister on the Lystheni's dime).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] A commitment to allowing the Citadel unfettered passage through Virmirean space in dealing with the Lystheni however they please (promise to let the Citadel do what they like to the Lystheni when the time comes).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] Allow Lystheni citizens not involved in espionage operations to return to Lystheni space.
    --[x] Allow Lystheni to retain claimed systems.
    --[x] Return Lystheni equipment in disassembled and sanitized manner so they may be rebuilt.
    [X] Plan Aggressive Negotiations
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    --[X] A Lystheni-funded network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister on the Lystheni's dime).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] A commitment to allowing the Citadel unfettered passage through Virmirean space in dealing with the Lystheni however they please (promise to let the Citadel do what they like to the Lystheni when the time comes).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] The resumption of trade on the Lystheni's terms (give them their lifeline back).
    --[x] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
    [X] Plan Soft Touch
    -[x] Demands
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[X] Write-In: A mutually-binding agreement to dimplomatically declare and allow cooperative and unrestricted access to all archaeological finds, be they Prothean or other, from this point forward and retroactively, to allow for joint examination and furthering of scientific research.
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[x] Allowing the resumption of trade, but no longer making terms a concern of the Virmirean government (cut your trading companies off the leash and stop telling them to play nice with the Lystheni's terms).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] The resumption of trade on the Lystheni's terms (give them their lifeline back).
    --[x] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
    --[X] Permit the relocation of Lystheni installations in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (let them have the artifacts and stations).
    --[x] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
    --[X] Write-In: An agreement to avoid military escalation on your part towards the Lystheni until and unless the Rachni threat is dealt with, provided the Lystheni promise the same; the agreement to be renewed upon final defeat of the Rachni.
    [X] [Plan] Core Interest
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[x] Allowing the resumption of trade, but no longer making terms a concern of the Virmirean government (cut your trading companies off the leash and stop telling them to play nice with the Lystheni's terms).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] The resumption of trade on the Lystheni's terms (give them their lifeline back).
    --[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (pay them).
    --[x] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
    [X] Plan Dont be stoopid, stupid!
    -[x] Demands
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[x] Allowing the resumption of trade, but no longer making terms a concern of the Virmirean government (cut your trading companies off the leash and stop telling them to play nice with the Lystheni's terms).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] The resumption of trade on the Lystheni's terms (give them their lifeline back).
    --[x] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
    --[x] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (pay them).
    --[x] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
    [X] Plan: Dreadnought diplomacy
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] Taking the Dalatrass as a hostage.
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
    [x] Plan: Initial round
    -[x] Demand 1
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    ---[x] Leverage: War
    ---[x] Concession: A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF), half imidiatly on acceptance, the other half after the merchentsare returned.
    ---[x] Concession: The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies), swaped at the same time the merchants are.
    -[x] Demand 2
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey). remind them that we will eventually get it from the Citadel when contact is restablished with them anyways.
    --[x] Leverage: Isolation and containment of Lystheni, containing the following
    ---[x] A commitment to allowing the Citadel unfettered passage through Virmirean space in dealing with the Lystheni however they please (promise to let the Citadel do what they like to the Lystheni when the time comes).
    ---[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    ---[x] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[x] concession: None, other then Further negotiations. Though the end to the trade embargo is highly likely assuming there is no glaring problem with their history and society.
    [x] Plan Hammer Time
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    --[X] A Lystheni-funded network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister on the Lystheni's dime).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] A commitment to allowing the Citadel unfettered passage through Virmirean space in dealing with the Lystheni however they please (promise to let the Citadel do what they like to the Lystheni when the time comes).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    [X] Plan Strong Pimp Hand
    [X] Plan Explanations or Blockade
    -[x] Demands
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] A commitment to allowing the Citadel unfettered passage through Virmirean space in dealing with the Lystheni however they please (promise to let the Citadel do what they like to the Lystheni when the time comes).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] The resumption of trade on the Lystheni's terms (give them their lifeline back).
    --[x] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
    --[X] Permit the relocation of Lystheni installations in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (let them have the artifacts and stations).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    [X] Plan Damocles
    -[X]Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    --[X] A Lystheni-funded network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister on the Lystheni's dime).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[X] Concessions
    --[x] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
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pbluekan said:
Looks good, Uju. But is there anybparticular reason you clarified the space window, rather than just window? It cracked me up.
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Just seemed appropriate.:)

PoptartProdigy said:
Next update is going to see the Lystheni presenting their demands, and nothing more. You're presenting nothing. This is the list Mira has in mind as she walks in the door. The only thing that might come up is the civilian release precondition, if it's in the winning plan.
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PoptartProdigy said:
Hey, @uju32, to clarify, this vote is about you deciding what you are ultimately prepared to accept or demand, and what is simply off the table. You're determining your shopping list, in other words. if it's something you'd be prepared to concede, put it in concessions.
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Noted. Will update plan.
And edit one of the options.
Rakuhn said:
@uju32
Based on PoptartProdigy's clarification of how concessions word, might I suggest adding
--[ ] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
to your plan, as it is something you were already willing to consider if they meet the rest of your demands?

I'd also suggest adding
--[ ] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (pay them).
under the assumption that we can use it to bargain for a renegotiated trade agreement. We want the trade agreement mostly for the economic clout, not the income. If they stop abiding by our agreement in the future, we can cut off the funds that they'd have been relying on to purchase our products (after having lost their domestic industry), and would almost immediately face economic collapse.
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Noted.
Gimme a couple minutes to go look over and update.
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Feb 24, 2018 at 6:01 PM, finished with 11202 posts and 45 votes.
  • [X] Plan Damocles
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    --[X] A network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (basically civilian Marshall Plan by Virmirean companies).
    --[x] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
    --[x] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
    [x] Plan Hammer Time
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    --[X] A Lystheni-funded network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister on the Lystheni's dime).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] A commitment to allowing the Citadel unfettered passage through Virmirean space in dealing with the Lystheni however they please (promise to let the Citadel do what they like to the Lystheni when the time comes).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] Allow Lystheni citizens not involved in espionage operations to return to Lystheni space.
    --[x] Allow Lystheni to retain claimed systems.
    --[x] Return Lystheni equipment in disassembled and sanitized manner so they may be rebuilt.
    [X] Plan Aggressive Negotiations
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    --[X] A Lystheni-funded network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister on the Lystheni's dime).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] A commitment to allowing the Citadel unfettered passage through Virmirean space in dealing with the Lystheni however they please (promise to let the Citadel do what they like to the Lystheni when the time comes).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] The resumption of trade on the Lystheni's terms (give them their lifeline back).
    --[x] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
    [X] Plan Soft Touch
    -[x] Demands
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[X] Write-In: A mutually-binding agreement to dimplomatically declare and allow cooperative and unrestricted access to all archaeological finds, be they Prothean or other, from this point forward and retroactively, to allow for joint examination and furthering of scientific research.
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[x] Allowing the resumption of trade, but no longer making terms a concern of the Virmirean government (cut your trading companies off the leash and stop telling them to play nice with the Lystheni's terms).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] The resumption of trade on the Lystheni's terms (give them their lifeline back).
    --[x] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
    --[X] Permit the relocation of Lystheni installations in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (let them have the artifacts and stations).
    --[x] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
    --[X] Write-In: An agreement to avoid military escalation on your part towards the Lystheni until and unless the Rachni threat is dealt with, provided the Lystheni promise the same; the agreement to be renewed upon final defeat of the Rachni.
    [X] [Plan] Core Interest
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[x] Allowing the resumption of trade, but no longer making terms a concern of the Virmirean government (cut your trading companies off the leash and stop telling them to play nice with the Lystheni's terms).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] The resumption of trade on the Lystheni's terms (give them their lifeline back).
    --[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (pay them).
    --[x] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
    [X] Plan Damocles
    -[X]Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    --[X] A network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[X] Concessions
    --[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (basically civilian Marshall Plan by Virmirean companies).
    --[X] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
    --[x] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
    [X] Plan Dont be stoopid, stupid!
    -[x] Demands
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[x] Allowing the resumption of trade, but no longer making terms a concern of the Virmirean government (cut your trading companies off the leash and stop telling them to play nice with the Lystheni's terms).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] The resumption of trade on the Lystheni's terms (give them their lifeline back).
    --[x] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
    --[x] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
    [X] Plan Strong Pimp Hand
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (pay them).
    --[x] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
    [X] Plan: Dreadnought diplomacy
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] Taking the Dalatrass as a hostage.
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
    [x] Plan: Initial round
    -[x] Demand 1
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    ---[x] Leverage: War
    ---[x] Concession: A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF), half imidiatly on acceptance, the other half after the merchentsare returned.
    ---[x] Concession: The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies), swaped at the same time the merchants are.
    -[x] Demand 2
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey). remind them that we will eventually get it from the Citadel when contact is restablished with them anyways.
    --[x] Leverage: Isolation and containment of Lystheni, containing the following
    ---[x] A commitment to allowing the Citadel unfettered passage through Virmirean space in dealing with the Lystheni however they please (promise to let the Citadel do what they like to the Lystheni when the time comes).
    ---[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    ---[x] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[x] concession: None, other then Further negotiations. Though the end to the trade embargo is highly likely assuming there is no glaring problem with their history and society.
    [x] Plan Hammer Time
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    --[X] A Lystheni-funded network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister on the Lystheni's dime).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] A commitment to allowing the Citadel unfettered passage through Virmirean space in dealing with the Lystheni however they please (promise to let the Citadel do what they like to the Lystheni when the time comes).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    [X] Plan Damocles
    -[x] Demands
    --[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
    --[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[x] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
    --[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
    --[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    --[X] A Lystheni-funded network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister on the Lystheni's dime).
    -[x] Leverage
    --[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
    --[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
    -[x] Concessions
    --[x] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
    --[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
    [X] Don't bother with talking. Just kill the Dalatrass. You know you want it.
Click to expand...
 
Given GM clarification of this as basically our shopping list, this is the new version of Plan Damocles.
As in everything we might be willing to accept or push for.

[X] Plan Damocles
-[X]Demands
--[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
--[X] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
--[X] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
--[X] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
--[X] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
--[X] A network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister).
-[X] Leverage
--[X] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
--[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
--[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
-[X] Concessions
--[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (basically civilian Marshall Plan by Virmirean companies).
--[X] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
--[X] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
--[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).

CHANGES
Green was added in it's original form.
Gold was edited:
Instead of the Lystheni paying for the sensor network, we can do so ourselves. And funding a civilian reconstruction program to raise the base standard of living there from utter shit acts as useful propaganda if we need to pry open their society.

War remains, as a stick; it's not possible to negotiate in good faith if they're holding hostages. Basic requirement.
They release them, or we come and take them.
 
Well the Lystheni have given us a goodly number of casus belli the hostages are just another in a very long list.
 
uju32 said:
Given GM clarification of this as basically our shopping list, this is the new version of Plan Damocles.
As in everything we might be willing to accept or push for.

[X] Plan Damocles
-[X]Demands
--[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
--[X] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
--[X] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
--[X] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
--[X] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
--[X] A network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister).
-[X] Leverage
--[X] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
--[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
--[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
-[X] Concessions
--[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (basically civilian Marshall Plan by Virmirean companies).
--[X] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
--[X] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
--[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).

CHANGES
Green was added in it's original form.
Gold was edited:
Instead of the Lystheni paying for the sensor network, we can do so ourselves. And funding a civilian reconstruction program to raise the base standard of living there from utter shit acts as useful propaganda if we need to pry open their society.

War remains, as a stick; it's not possible to negotiate in good faith if they're holding hostages. Basic requirement.
They release them, or we come and take them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hmm. Do we really want to make immediate release of the merchants a precondition for talks? As in, Mira will walk away if the Dalatrass delays, dissembles, denies or otherwise won't concede their only leverage immediately? I think we could keep the demand, but write-in a softer version?
 
Comparing the leading plans, "Hammer Time" and "Damocles..." I don't see enough difference between them to have an opinion on which should win.

Alliterate said:
Hmm. Do we really want to make immediate release of the merchants a precondition for talks? As in, Mira will walk away if the Dalatrass delays, dissembles, denies or otherwise won't concede their only leverage immediately? I think we could keep the demand, but write-in a softer version?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think a lot of us DO want to make that a precondition, and a lot of us DON'T, but no plan 'caught fire' that does anything other than demand immediate release of the merchants, so the two leading choices both demand it, while those who are willing to wait a bit to make the hostage exchange have no one to unite behind.
 
Alliterate said:
Hmm. Do we really want to make immediate release of the merchants a precondition for talks? As in, Mira will walk away if the Dalatrass delays, dissembles, denies or otherwise won't concede their only leverage immediately? I think we could keep the demand, but write-in a softer version?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I warned people about brinksmanship last turn, and panicking them into precipitate action, but they still chose to put a warfleet on our border.
*shrug* At this point, I don't really see a good option.

To put it this way:
Are they going to hold them forever as sapient shields? How do they know that we won't agree to everything, get our people back and repudiate it? They went ahead and set the precedent of breaking treaties.

You can't negotiate in good faith with a government who is holding your what sounds like triple digits of your civilians because they have been ordered not to trade; that's the kind of place where foreign ministries advise their citizens not to travel to. Even the North Koreans usually find some sort of criminal charge for the prisoners they throw in jail, trumped up or not.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Comparing the leading plans, "Hammer Time" and "Damocles..." I don't see enough difference between them to have an opinion on which should win.

I think a lot of us DO want to make that a precondition, and a lot of us DON'T, but no plan 'caught fire' that does anything other than demand immediate release of the merchants, so the two leading choices both demand it, while those who are willing to wait a bit to make the hostage exchange have no one to unite behind.
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Click to shrink...
We've just learned that what matters more is what is not on the list (non-negotiable items) rather than what is on the list.

Choose Hammertime if you to make a farcical peace offer that will almost certainly lead to war.
Choose Damocles if you want to make a sincere effort at peace, and only if that effort fails do you want to go to war.
 
Rakuhn said:
We've just learned that what matters more is what is not on the list (non-negotiable items) rather than what is on the list.

Choose Hammertime if you to make a farcical peace offer that will almost certainly lead to war.
Choose Damocles if you want to make a sincere effort at peace, and only if that effort fails do you want to go to war.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You have just made it considerably more likely I'll vote for Hammer Time, because that was the most ridiculously biased (and unsubstantiated) summary of two largely similar plans that I've heard in a long time.
 
uju32 said:
--[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
uju32 said:
--[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Just a note, but we could write as part of this concession that we're willing to release their people in exchange for ours as a show of good faith, and that the negotiation process will work with us. Us having their people doesn't really give us any additional leverage here, since there's no way they could actually beat us if it came down to war.
 
Enjou said:
Just a note, but we could write as part of this concession that we're willing to release their people in exchange for ours as a show of good faith, and that the negotiation process will work with us. Us having their people doesn't really give us any additional leverage here, since there's no way they could actually beat us if it came down to war.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Disagree.

For a polity that small, the espionage operatives we're holding is a significant portion of their skilled espionage manpower, and is thus worth a lot to them. The more so if said people have other jobs in their nation, and only spy parttime.
So it is a significant piece of leverage.

Not as large as the threat of maintaining the economic blockade for example, but it is still something.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
You have just made it considerably more likely I'll vote for Hammer Time, because that was the most ridiculously biased (and unsubstantiated) summary of two largely similar plans that I've heard in a long time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm cool with that. I do have a tendency to hyperbole and overdramatization.

But as to my reasoning, here are Hammertime's concessions. Keep in mind that we've learned that any concessions not on this list will be consider non-negotiable by the MC.
--[] Allow Lystheni citizens not involved in espionage operations to return to Lystheni space.
We aren't holding any non-agent Lystheni hostage. Therefore this does nothing.
--[] Allow Lystheni to retain claimed systems.
This is just repeating threatening to declare war if they don't do what we want.
--[] Return Lystheni equipment in disassembled and sanitized manner so they may be rebuilt.
This is the only real "concession", but the Lystheni would only value it as scrap.

It doesn't even de-escalate our border situation which, according to the update, is the very first thing that the Lysenthi want. It has no non-violent mechanism to ensure their continued co-operation after the deal is stuck. The only plausible conclusion is that the peace deal is intended to fail, and that we will use that as a casus belli to destroy the Lysenthi.

Although I guess that isn't your point is it? If I had paid more attention, I'd have realized that you weren't saying that you didn't see differences between the two plans, only that the differences were pointless since they both demand the release of hostages.
 
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Guaranteeing Lystheni independence is a complete deal-breaker for me. Guaranteeing their independence basically binds us to them and turns us into their meat shield against the Citadel. We don't know anything about these people, we can't trust them to give a proper justification and, honestly, there's VERY little they can say that will make me willing to fight the Citadel on their behalf after all the shit they pulled.
 
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