Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
...source?
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Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest
...source?
You fundamentally misunderstand both negotiations and war if you think doing one precludes the other.
These assholes have screwed with us time and time again. They have taken advantage of every concession. They have abused every trust. If your plan wins all it will mean is that they will continue to screw with us because clearly it is working and even more clearly they can get away with it.
No. They had their chances.
Considering the tech, training, numbers and tonnage differences if we get a natural 1 and they get a natural 50 they might manage to inflict as many casualties as they take.
Building a ship capable of doing anything meaningful is not an easily concealed project. Getting out of an atmosphere is not a quiet operation. Being in space without broadcasting your existence is impossible without the space magic Normandy uses… which won't be invented for a couple of millennia.
The worst they could do is a bit of PR damage by not telling up they have a food/medical crisis and all dying 'on our watch'.
[x] Plan Hammer Time
-[x] Demands
--[x] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
--[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
--[x] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
--[x] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
--[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
--[x] A Lystheni-funded network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister on the Lystheni's dime).
-[x] Leverage
--[x] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
--[x] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
--[x] A commitment to allowing the Citadel unfettered passage through Virmirean space in dealing with the Lystheni however they please (promise to let the Citadel do what they like to the Lystheni when the time comes).
--[x] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
[X] Plan Damocles
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- Location
- his hidden lair
I'll admit- I'm making the very ambitious assumption that the Virmire military can deploy 5% of its military for the purpose of occupation over time /s. But we evidently have the lift capacity to redeploy wet navy battlegroups between worlds and other than the research incident our military really doesn't have anything better to do than grant every Lystheni a Virmire appointed battle buddy.
Like this isn't Space Vietnam or anything like that- this is Space Waco. Except they aren't even our citizens and they've done everything they can to vilify themselves in the eyes of our constituents. Isn't it great?
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Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Oh, sorry, my bad. I didn't realize you were planning to annihilate the Rachni in between finishing negotiations and going to war. /s
More seriously: the question is not whether we can, in an absolute sense, win a war against the Lystheni and then hold their space. The answer is trivially "yes." The question is whether we can afford to do so. We would need to divert meaningful resources to any such attempt, especially considering that they have likely made preparations for just such an eventuality, while just as aware as we are of the massive force disparity. Our own efforts against the Rachni should provide an ample demonstration of how much grief a minor power can give a larger one that's too busy to focus entirely on dealing with them.
- Location
- his hidden lair
What? That's not even sarcasm. That's a retarded strawman. Our ground forces have seen zero fighting in far more dire circumstances than Virmire is in right now, redeploying a small fraction to secure Lystheni Space in no way meaningfully compromises the security of Virmire.
Even the rest of your comment is kinda crazy. It implicitly assumes the moment the Lystheni's likely information blackout and state propaganda comes down that the civilians will still resist. When Virmire occupation is likely to lead to quality of life improvements. Better consumer goods, better job hours (no more naval stints or fission shenanigans) , better health care
, access to higher education, etc. Or that we can bring the Dalatrass to the table and force her to capitulate.
Or that shipping is a meaningful impairment on the war effort in the first place. It isn't. No more than the assets the fucking research team requested! A Ford class supercarrier masses 100k tons, if we assume the wet dreadnoughts made the same- then we're talking hundreds of thousands of men being something we can readily ship out. And any military that runs into problems projecting 1/20 of it's number into its back yard deserves some attention in the first place.
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- Location
- Europe
[x] Plan Hammer Time
[X] Plan Aggressive Negotiations
Since we're doing approval voting, these two are acceptable to me. I categorically refuse to reward the Lystheni for taking our citizens hostage by sending them money or to sign a good-will treaty for the declaration of Prothean finds. This cult needs to be dealt with, not cuddled.
[X] Plan Aggressive Negotiations
Since we're doing approval voting, these two are acceptable to me. I categorically refuse to reward the Lystheni for taking our citizens hostage by sending them money or to sign a good-will treaty for the declaration of Prothean finds. This cult needs to be dealt with, not cuddled.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
I'm planning to drop war threat once they presented their position. Forming world's largest prison camp or internalizing and granting vote to 10 million hostile people post conquer is very much insane. Marking them as citizen without voting power is creating second class citizen and that too is stupid.
Basically, destruction or seize of space assets and near-total embargo is the most I would go for should talks fail.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
They bled themselves dry to build that much of space assets, and we are talking about cultist-level paranoids. Do you seriously think they hand over military assets? I think what we might get is the merchants back, agreed-upon borders, and perhaps a space station to commence trade. Possibly an explanation (true or not) that explains their society.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
What? That's not even sarcasm. That's a retarded strawman. Our ground forces have seen zero fighting in far more dire circumstances than Virmire is in right now, redeploying a small fraction to secure Lystheni Space in no way meaningfully compromises the security of Virmire.
Even the rest of your comment is kinda crazy. It implicitly assumes the moment the Lystheni's likely information blackout and state propaganda comes down that the civilians will still resist. When Virmire occupation is likely to lead to quality of life improvements. Better consumer goods, better job hours (no more naval stints or fission shenanigans) , better health care
Or that we can bring the Dalatrass to the table and force her to capitulate.
Or that shipping is a meaningful impairment on the war effort in the first place. It isn't. No more than the assets the fucking research team requested! A Ford class supercarrier masses 100k tons, if we assume the wet dreadnoughts made the same- then we're talking hundreds of thousands of men being something we can readily ship out. And any military that runs into problems projecting 1/20 of it's number into its back yard deserves some attention in the first place.
As Kirai has just pointed out, the Lystheni do not so much resemble a government as a cult. They are not ruling over poor, oppressed citizens who will greet us as liberators. Given what we know of their operations, their entire citizenry basically has to be indoctrinated (NB: probably not the Reaper kind) for their society to even function. So yes, I am assuming that the citizenry will resist our occupation. If you have any credible evidence that they will not, I invite you to present it.
I am also, yes, assuming that there are options here which are not war. If we thought war was the only way forward we'd have been better served launching an undeclared strike immediately. We voted to try diplomacy, so let's fucking try it.
Finally: you will note that while we were able to supply the research team with their requested assets, eyebrows were raised at that request. It was not a trivial effort. Not an impediment to the war effort currently, no, but also a smaller commitment than the Lystheni will require. After all, you were earlier arguing for the deployment of tens of millions of soldiers, not the mere hundreds of thousands you cited just now.
Fortunately, this last point is one we should be able to resolve with facts. @PoptartProdigy how much effort do our advisers expect it would take us to deploy the forces necessary to secure Lystheni space and hold it, assuming we were to go to war with them with the intent of full conquest?
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
If you read carefully then you would notice the part where I said hostile actions only to be used when talk breaks down. I'm fine with them keeping their space assets and fleet once our people, our science, and their history are exchanged.
- Location
- Ural, Russia, Earth
Considering it's their only leverage, I don't think they'll agree to give it up as a precondition of negotiations.
Agree to concede it in exchange of our concessions - yes.
Agree to concede it for nothing in return - no.
This is the only demand that cannot be conceded from my opinion. Everything else is negotiable.
I don't see how they could be anything except burden. Their ships are few, pityful and without any experience.
[X] Plan Soft Touch
[X] Plan Explanations or Blockade
-[X] Demands
--[X] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
--[X] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
-[X] Leverage
--[X] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
--[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
--[X] A commitment to allowing the Citadel unfettered passage through Virmirean space in dealing with the Lystheni however they please (promise to let the Citadel do what they like to the Lystheni when the time comes).
-[X] Concessions
--[X] The resumption of trade on the Lystheni's terms (give them their lifeline back).
--[X] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
--[X] Permit the relocation of Lystheni installations in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (let them have the artifacts and stations).
--[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
- Location
- Central Europe
Do people voting for Plan Hammer Time expect this to go through? Is this meant to serve as our most outrageous demand to make them more agreeable to others? Or, would you go to war over their most likely rejection of this demand?
Sorry @Alfa290 , if I missed you already answering these.
Edit: Nevermind
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- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yes, from browsing the tally you are the most moderate. However, I don't think
Code:
--[x] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
--[x] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).- Location
- his hidden lair
First of all, the assumption that every citizen is a fanatic who upon having their world view shattered will actively resist occupation is a far harder thing to argue than supposing that *maybe* the quality of life and revelation of state lies (we don't even know if the average Lystheni knows the Rachni exist) will shake their confidence in the Dalatrass and whatever cult of personality she's developed. Assuming absolutes like the citizenry will absolutely oppose us or vice versa is premature.
As for hundreds of thousands- you misunderstand, I'm talking about in the context of a transport flotilla, not our total lift capability. I'm going to assume military wet navy vessels aren't made to be disassembled and reassembled.
But most importantly- if we can't actually sustain a few million man expedition in our own cluster... we need to reevaluate and fix that shit pronto, that's a failure of doctrine and organization in its own right- and I'm going to assume our various experts in things military wouldn't have brought up the issues occupying Lystheni space before shit got this far. We're talking a small fraction of our military for the most ludicrous of occupations over the shortest distances in interstellar terms our military is liable to see ever. If we can't make this work than we need to know what to do in order to change that not write off war and occupation as too costly as a result.
If we can't keep the blind quadrapelagic the room over under control- how are we ever going to maintain a ground presence on a world the Rachni occupied in force? We can't assume ortillery will get all of them all the time- and even when/if the Rachni collapse, we're still talking feral leftovers/ actual holdouts scattered across their worlds.
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They interned our merchants? Ballsy.
Going to cost them though.So here's my opening offer:
[X] Plan Damocles
-[X]Demands
--[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
--[X] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
--[X] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
--[X] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
--[X] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
--[X] A network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister).
-[X] Leverage
--[X] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
--[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
--[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
-[X] Concessions
--[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (pay them).
--[X] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
--[X] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
--[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
REASONING
There's a proverb that paraphrased, says you don't spank a child for spilling the palm oil, you spank him/her for spilling the dregs.Because while spilling the top, most valuable portion might be a mistake, by the time you get to the bottom of the bottle it's flagrant misbehavior.
And the lystheni are getting on my nerves; we neither need nor want a Saudi Arabia on our borders.
Basically, as long as they hold our citizens, war is very much on the table, and we will come for them. Same for the secrets, especially after they stole weapon designs from us; we need to be sure they are safe to be permitted with ship-grade nuclear weapons. We're not blind, we can look out the space window and notice that the frigate design they are currently using was stolen from us.
There have to be consequences for breaking the treaty, so they lose what's at Sikel. Flatout non-negotiable.
And as they have proven incapable of keeping their own treaty that they proposed, we are going to need independent verification, hence the sensor network.
Much of the rest are basically tying their economy comprehensively enough that if they pull this shit again, we'll break them.
More profit as well, but not letting our merchants run rampant and exploit them to the fullest, because that just generates civilian resentment and will create trouble for the future.
I'd probably be willing to pay for the Big Sister network as a concession, but that's depending on what they put forward as their opening position.
I might even be willing to guarantee Lystheni independence, depending on what they did; the generation that fled from the Citadel is almost certainly all dead by now, given average salarian lifespans, so it's going to be an easier sale to the Citadel anyway. Might consider coupling that to a Marshall Plan type plan, where Virmireans are on the ground helping build their infrastructure to civilian standards.
As long as we can be sure they aren't lying to us again, at which point all bets are off. But that's something to bring up AFTER they present their own opening position.
Their military is largely a bargaining chip we might be willing to give away, though we can probably use them to help patrol the Kepler Verge, to free up actual soldiers to go fight. Garrison, basically; you shouldn't need anything heavier than frigates and light cruisers to keep Rachni planetbound, and they can call on our fleet assets for backup.
And frankly, it's in their own best interests to be seen to contribute to this war, and not to be freeloading. Easier to sell to the Citadel, and literally everyone else.
TL; DR
This is basically aiming for the arrangement that the Western Allies made to West Germany after WW2. Vet, verify and rebuild a nation that's safe to have as a neighbor and partner. Not just going for destruction.
Going to cost them though.So here's my opening offer:
[X] Plan Damocles
-[X]Demands
--[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
--[X] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
--[X] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
--[X] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
--[X] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
--[X] A network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister).
-[X] Leverage
--[X] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
--[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
--[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
-[X] Concessions
--[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (pay them).
--[X] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
--[X] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
--[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
REASONING
There's a proverb that paraphrased, says you don't spank a child for spilling the palm oil, you spank him/her for spilling the dregs.Because while spilling the top, most valuable portion might be a mistake, by the time you get to the bottom of the bottle it's flagrant misbehavior.
And the lystheni are getting on my nerves; we neither need nor want a Saudi Arabia on our borders.
Basically, as long as they hold our citizens, war is very much on the table, and we will come for them. Same for the secrets, especially after they stole weapon designs from us; we need to be sure they are safe to be permitted with ship-grade nuclear weapons. We're not blind, we can look out the space window and notice that the frigate design they are currently using was stolen from us.
There have to be consequences for breaking the treaty, so they lose what's at Sikel. Flatout non-negotiable.
And as they have proven incapable of keeping their own treaty that they proposed, we are going to need independent verification, hence the sensor network.
Much of the rest are basically tying their economy comprehensively enough that if they pull this shit again, we'll break them.
More profit as well, but not letting our merchants run rampant and exploit them to the fullest, because that just generates civilian resentment and will create trouble for the future.
I'd probably be willing to pay for the Big Sister network as a concession, but that's depending on what they put forward as their opening position.
I might even be willing to guarantee Lystheni independence, depending on what they did; the generation that fled from the Citadel is almost certainly all dead by now, given average salarian lifespans, so it's going to be an easier sale to the Citadel anyway. Might consider coupling that to a Marshall Plan type plan, where Virmireans are on the ground helping build their infrastructure to civilian standards.
As long as we can be sure they aren't lying to us again, at which point all bets are off. But that's something to bring up AFTER they present their own opening position.
Their military is largely a bargaining chip we might be willing to give away, though we can probably use them to help patrol the Kepler Verge, to free up actual soldiers to go fight. Garrison, basically; you shouldn't need anything heavier than frigates and light cruisers to keep Rachni planetbound, and they can call on our fleet assets for backup.
And frankly, it's in their own best interests to be seen to contribute to this war, and not to be freeloading. Easier to sell to the Citadel, and literally everyone else.
TL; DR
This is basically aiming for the arrangement that the Western Allies made to West Germany after WW2. Vet, verify and rebuild a nation that's safe to have as a neighbor and partner. Not just going for destruction.
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- Location
- Germany
[X] Plan Damocles
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
@PoptartProdigy - does our intelligence advisor has an idea how much the Lystheni could hurt us if they go on a holy crusade?
[X] Plan Damocles
Also, the war with Lystheni might not be the best course, but it is a good one.
We get a final solution to nondiplomatic cultists. We get experience for our army - not only combat experience, but the experience of deploying large masses of ground forces across the void, coordinating and supplying said masses - something that we lack. We get some small to medium colonial prospects with relatively low cost of establishment.
While seeking this war may not be in our interests, we don't need to shy away from it.
Also, the war with Lystheni might not be the best course, but it is a good one.
We get a final solution to nondiplomatic cultists. We get experience for our army - not only combat experience, but the experience of deploying large masses of ground forces across the void, coordinating and supplying said masses - something that we lack. We get some small to medium colonial prospects with relatively low cost of establishment.
While seeking this war may not be in our interests, we don't need to shy away from it.