Everything @Quantumboost said makes sense, but I don't know if your statement is actually true. I would have justified it as learning Xenology as a specialty within DSci. It doesn't really matter, though, because I do agree that my original reason for suggesting such a thing is impractical, if not impossible.
I guess it may depend on your sources. Mage20 flat out says it's impossible and no character should ever have a variant sphere and a regular one at the same time. It's possible to change your understanding of a sphere and so move from Spirit to Dimensional Science but it's impossible to have both at the same time.
 
Eh, I am not interested in any sort of edition war type comments. It's the most recent edition and so the one I reference on this things.

Sure, but it does help explain why that might explicitly be the case in M20 as opposed to in editions where the Spheres were very much artificial concepts.

Personally, in the case of those with plural-paradigm merits I'd consider it entirely possible that you could have both DSci and Spirit. An Arete 6+ willworker might be able to do something similar, using Spirit if they're using Tradition foci, and DSci if they're using technocratic/VA foci, because the entire point of breaking through that perceptual barrier is that you can see that all paradigms are true, so why should you be limited to DSci or Spirit simply because you started as a technomancer or traditionalist, when they are two ways of looking at mostly the same phenomena?[1]​

[1] Beyond game-balance concerns.
 
Sure, but it does help explain why that might explicitly be the case in M20 as opposed to in editions where the Spheres were very much artificial concepts.

Personally, in the case of those with plural-paradigm merits I'd consider it entirely possible that you could have both DSci and Spirit. An Arete 6+ willworker might be able to do something similar, using Spirit if they're using Tradition foci, and DSci if they're using technocratic/VA foci, because the entire point of breaking through that perceptual barrier is that you can see that all paradigms are true, so why should you be limited to DSci or Spirit simply because you started as a technomancer or traditionalist, when they are two ways of looking at mostly the same phenomena?[1]​

[1] Beyond game-balance concerns.
The book doesn't have plural-paradigm merits nor does it cover Mages with Arete 6+ so I think it is reasonable for it to say that it is impossible to have a variant sphere and a regular sphere on the same character because that is the norm.
 
Aside from the fact that Mages can totally believe two contradictory worldviews at the same time, there is no particular fundamental reason I can see that would prevent you from learning techniques for "manipulating alternate-dimensional physics" and then learning techniques for "interacting with EDE biology and psychology" even in a single worldview. Convention Book: NWO even explicates that the Virtual Adepts sometimes use a synthesis of both Data and Correspondence (which is mostly a difference of what range chart you use, but still). There aren't any real balance concerns (you're paying for the second Sphere anyway) and if someone can't justify a Sphere in their personal paradigm in the first place, they shouldn't be able to purchase it.

Moreover, since beowulf is clearly pulling from Panopticon Quest for that idea - it's worth note that in the game that Kessler and Almacia are from, it was explicitly allowed for someone to pick up Dual Traditions (Void Engineers/a Tradition) and have both Spirit and DSci in particular. At least, based on the wiki page for the VCOM character creation. So there's that.
nor does it cover Mages with Arete 6+
They totally do. They overhauled it, but with high enough Arete any non-Technocrat (because Fuck The Man apparently) can totally ignore the need to actually use techniques and cause-and-effect to do magick stuff.
 
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Aside from the fact that Mages can totally believe two contradictory worldviews at the same time, there is no particular fundamental reason I can see that would prevent you from learning techniques for "manipulating alternate-dimensional physics" and then learning techniques for "interacting with EDE biology and psychology" even in a single worldview. Convention Book: NWO even explicates that the Virtual Adepts sometimes use a synthesis of both Data and Correspondence (which is mostly a difference of what range chart you use, but still). There aren't any real balance concerns (you're paying for the second Sphere anyway) and if someone can't justify a Sphere in their personal paradigm in the first place, they shouldn't be able to purchase it.

Moreover, since beowulf is clearly pulling from Panopticon Quest for that idea - it's worth note that in the game that Kessler and Almacia are from, it was explicitly allowed for someone to pick up Dual Traditions (Void Engineers/a Tradition) and have both Spirit and DSci in particular. At least, based on the wiki page for the VCOM character creation. So there's that.

They totally do. They overhauled it, but with high enough Arete any non-Technocrat (because Fuck The Man apparently) can totally ignore the need to actually use techniques and cause-and-effect to do magick stuff.
PQ has a wiki?
 
This is the same edition that had the Spheres be fundamental pillars of reality, isn't it? :V

Every edition has that, though some of the editions have other things that are contradictory to that position. Mage Revised is the one with the most 'none of the spheres are real' stuff, but it's also the edition with the most 'Tenth Sphere' nonsense. That (awful bag of worms) was a huge deal for all of the Apocalypse nonsense.

That said, you totally should be able to have too different version of the same sphere, though that a horrible xp sink. You also can going by RAW, but that's just M20 being silly and I would same its fine to ignore that provided your character understand they're making sub-optimal purchases.
 
For those interested, the next supplement for Mage the Awakening 2E, Signs of Sorcery, has officialy entered the operative Schedule and is now in the First Draft stage.

For contents, here's a quote straight from Dave Brookshaw.

Yes indeed! Signs got a slightly extended wordcount at the last minute, so it will cover...
  • Mage Sight, the Supernal World, and Supernal Entities
  • Yantras and Rituals
  • Imbued Items, Enhanced Items, Other Crafting, and the perfected Materials
  • Grimoires, Daimononika, Soul Stones, and an expanded system for requisitioning things from your Order
  • Hallows, Supernal Mysteries, Emanation Realms, Mythic Beings, Ananke, and Ochemata
  • The Awakening itself as a Mystery - theories on causing, detecting, and interfering, and rules for playing through one with an existing character.

For those who heard about it before, I underlined what sounded like new stuff for the extended wordcount from memory, I'll update if that turns out to be incorrect.
 
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Okay, just a general question. Well, it's several questions, but I'm asking it to get an rundown. What happens to various corpses, like?

Mage corpses: When a mage dies, it leaves behind just a dead body.

Vampire corpses? Well, they're undead already, but you know what I mean.

Changeling corpses?

Promethean corpses?

Demon corpses?

Etc, etc. Just, like, if someone was looking at a dead [Splat] what would they see? Both with and without the ability to see through illusions or whatever else. For some of these, I can guess or know, for others I don't, but either way, asking for help here.
 

You see an oddly well-preserved dead body that has the physical appearance of the Promethean as the Promethean see themselves - e.g. a Galatean corpse is a disturbingly beautiful body that has a thick, porcelain-like skin with the texture of carved wax. The ground around the corpse is dead; nothing grows there, and even worms, maggots, and bacteria avoid the place.
 
My interpretation in my chronicles

Changeling corpse: The mask stays on for any not enchanted people

Promethean corpse: they return to their base matter. So if people happened upon a Frankestein corpse they would probably think a madman sewed corpses together. Any traces of the Created inhumanity will interpreted as corpse mutilation.

Demons: The corpse dissapear after a few hours/days according to Cover strength. Mortals see the Cover's corpse, supernaturals (esp Mages) would see the demonic form behind.

All that disagrege after a time, sometimes harvested by an Angel.
 
A vampire who meets Final Death reverts to its natural post-mortem "age." Someone who was literally Embraced yesterday looks like a day-old corpse, someone a few weeks Embraced turns into a mostly decomposed skeleton, and elders turn to dust. The exception is Diablerie and the Banes (sunlight, fire), which as I recall all cause the vampire to turn to dust upon death regardless of age. The process is not instantaneous, and takes a minute.
 
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so, M20 is now available for the general public. I have played a little nMage, and have a basic understanding of oMage from starting to read through Panopticon Quest.

that said, I'm interested in getting M20.

I don't want to here about someone's favorite edition or which one's better because the others got X rule "wrong", I just want a general idea of what I'm getting into.

what I want to know is, how different is it from the other two, and is it worth getting.
 
Okay, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this so far, because- well, 76 pages- so I figure I'll just ask... Does anyone know of a good Demon the Fallen conversion to nWoD? Some friends and I like the nWoD mechanics a lot better than oWoD, but the nWoD Demon is just... NOT the same.

I see there's the "Demon Translation Guide" from white wolf- has anyone actually tried it? And if so, what did you think? Are there good crunchy numbers to use, or is it just descriptive fluff?
 
so, M20 is now available for the general public. I have played a little nMage, and have a basic understanding of oMage from starting to read through Panopticon Quest.

that said, I'm interested in getting M20.

I don't want to here about someone's favorite edition or which one's better because the others got X rule "wrong", I just want a general idea of what I'm getting into.

what I want to know is, how different is it from the other two, and is it worth getting.

Very compressed, but reasonably comprehensive to play. Just don't expect in depth look of the world. Spend a little too much on fluff, imo.
 
Changeling corpse:
"Jesus, Kelly, what the hell is that?!"

The sheriff continues to stare down at the mangled body. Frozen dew has frosted on the hair and eyelashes like icy dandruff - the poor bastard's been out here all night, at least, left to cool on the roadside like so much roadkill. His looks are another thing he has common with a squashed raccoon - it's an unkind thought, and one she squashes into the corner of her brain.

"It's a body, Mason, you've seen them before. Call in an ambulance."

The deputy in question completes his jittery, disgusted about-turn and peers back down the little verge.

"Sheriff, I'm no doctor, but I don't think an ambulance is gonna help. An ice-cream van looks like it'd be better fit, don't ya think?" He takes a second look. "Or a pick-up truck. Jesus, but he's a big bastard."

He responds to her flat, unimpressed look with a sigh. It's been a long, otherwise boring night, and this doesn't look nearly as exciting as he thought it might be. As he tugs a radio from his belt and adds a deliberately-irritating nasal twang to his voice, she shuffles her way down off the roadside, to the side of the body. There won't be much in the way of evidence, unless the body's got a dented license plate clutched in its stiff fingers, but she still wants a closer look.

Yeah, she confirms, leaning over and not-quite-actually touching the corpse. One eye. It's not like the other was damaged - it's just not even there, and the one he does have is big and bulging, almost centered in his face, locked in a surprised stare above a nose that was clearly broken several times even before this final tumble.

Poor bastard. Born a freak, then you die.

Alternatively the Mask stays on or whatever.

Or the changes inflicted by your Durance are undone, and your Fetch suddenly has a doppelganger to explain to themselves.
 
so, M20 is now available for the general public. I have played a little nMage, and have a basic understanding of oMage from starting to read through Panopticon Quest.

that said, I'm interested in getting M20.

I don't want to here about someone's favorite edition or which one's better because the others got X rule "wrong", I just want a general idea of what I'm getting into.

what I want to know is, how different is it from the other two, and is it worth getting.

Very compressed, but reasonably comprehensive to play. Just don't expect in depth look of the world. Spend a little too much on fluff, imo.

Pretty much. Though there is more than enough to run a standard chronicle whether it be a Tradition, Technocrat, Disparate or whatever. However it can be pretty damn intimidating at nearly 700 pages and great deal of talking about the game's metaplot and how it could be used in games. While the Big Three, VtM, WtA and MtAs all had big metaplot events that shook things up, MtAs had the biggest and most divisive of them, the Avatar Storm.

But aside from that I like M20 and recommend as I do the other two x20 Rulebooks.
 
Honestly if you want to play a Mage chronicle just ebay a copy of... any of the other books. Even Sorcerer's Crusade. Sorcerer's Crusade had the best Magick chapter in the entire run.
 
so, M20 is now available for the general public. I have played a little nMage, and have a basic understanding of oMage from starting to read through Panopticon Quest.

that said, I'm interested in getting M20.

I don't want to here about someone's favorite edition or which one's better because the others got X rule "wrong", I just want a general idea of what I'm getting into.

I would warn you that Panopticon runs on a primarily late-Revised view of the setting, while M20... does not.
 
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