They were always pretty realistic, and so too was Pentex; people are just invested in the idea that no-one can possibly be that callously evil in pursuit of profit, an idea that's shown more and more cracks as information becomes more and more freely available.
 
Pulled this bit out because it's very funny, as W:tF is literally all about being a direct-action community organiser and activist as opposed to the more fantastical kind of environmental activist/ecoterrorist you get in W:tA.
I've read W:tF's rulebook, and seen discussions--I have less exposure to it than W:tA but I do have some, and what I've seen is community focused but seems to connect the spiritual ills to actual political issues in a less explicit fashion.
i admit as someone who started gaming in NWOD i have heard a lot of wild takes from OWOD fans over the years and grown cynical but "WtA is a serious take about leftist praxis, which is why unlike WtF or any other roleplaying game it turns people into activists" is really incredible, i think it is the purest one yet

might be some selection bias here in who you've talked to about activism and games, just maybe?
Oh, it could absolutely be selection bias, but like @Amidatelion said, Apocalypse has the subtlety of a sledgehammer with regards to its politics. I do think that leaves more of an impression on people, and that's part of the reason why some people don't like it.

Also, I don't actually think WtA is a serious take about leftist praxis, I just think it has clearly leftist themes.
 
I'd suggest that you try and place yourself in the mind of a wolf and think about their perspective.
I'm sorry, do you think that… wolves are sapient?

Like, this isn't a comment on the general politics here, but you realize that you can't literally inhabit the conscious perspective of a wolf, because a.) they don't have one and b.) even if they did they wouldn't be able to communicate it, right? When you play as one you're creating your own hypothetical interpretation of what a sapient wolf would be like just like everyone else, there's not some objective lupine cognition that you can imitate here. Insofar as a lupus is easier for you to play than for most it's because you have more imagination about this than others, not because people are insufficiently understanding of or empathetic to actual wolves.
 
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I'm sorry, do you think that… wolves are sapient?

Like, this isn't a comment on the general politics here, but you realize that you can't literally inhabit the conscious perspective of a wolf, right? When you play as one you're creating your own hypothetical interpretation of what a sapient wolf would be like just like everyone else, there's not some objective lupine cognition that you can learn to inhabit here.
You are reading stuff into my comment that isn't there. Lack of sapience doesn't mean they don't have a perspective, emotions, or thoughts. They are, after all, sentient; sapience is much more narrowly defined (while being simultaneously kind of vague). Obviously you can't create a perfect match, but it's also isn't that hard to try and consider their perspective; we do this with nonhuman animals all the time. While this does sometimes lead to inappropriate anthropomorphizing, it also frequently leads to insight or empathy.

I can't literally inhabit the conscious perspective of anyone but myself, after all, yet we try and consider the viewpoint of other humans all the time. Yes, closer cognitive distance means that is easier, but it's still not impossible for other species than humans if you're willing to put some thought into your approach and do some research. The fact that it isn't perfect doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

In the case of lupus Garou, it's even easier because they sapient in the same way as humans.
 
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Also aren't animals a little bit smarter in OwoD?
Yes; most editions have allowed you to play lupus Kinfolk using normal Kinfolk generation rules. It is rules-legal to make one with Int 3 and dump 3 freebie points into Academics so you can have Philosophy Wolf.

Personally I like to interpret them as being very smart, but not necessarily in the same ways humans are. Very clever, and able to think abstractly and plan ahead, but the vast majority of them have no head for numbers and little mechanistic intelligence so they aren't good tool users. You treat cognitive abilities as a toolkit rather than a single unified thing.
 
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Most real-life animals are more clever and neurologically/psychologically complex than we give them credit for. Plants, even.

I'm not saying that Wolves are cognitively equal to humans, but they probably have fairly complex emotional and mental states (Though, of course, we can't know what those are because our qualitative experience of the world is different).
 
I'd go so far as to say we can know what they are, our knowledge is just imperfect. I live with cats; it is very obvious when The Orange One is intimidated, and I can even make educated guesses as to what makes it worse and better. He doesn't seem to like it when I move quickly, and tends to respond better to shorter people; he responds better to me when I'm on the ground. Therefore I reason that my tendency to make quick, abrupt movements and height is why he tends to shy away from me.

To bring it back to the Garou, when I played my lupus one of the first things I emphasized was that he found roads incredibly restricting and even somewhat frightening. The roads make it difficult for a young male wolf to disperse; they're full of strange things that make loud noises and move very quickly (yes, he can 'kill' them, but getting hit would still hurt a lot and would probably involve a Veil breach). They're also open areas. So they're these network of strange, threatening areas that cut through the area he lives in (and where he had to go through to get to the playable area). That's very stressful for him.

I don't think actual wolves really reflect on the subject like my PC does. But the effects of roads on wolves--and wildlife in general--is well documented, and we know a lot about their life histories and population dynamics. Even if it's impossible to know what wolves think of roads, I think we can make some pretty good (if kind of basic) educated guesses about what their experiences of roads are like.

Trying to put myself into the perspective of a wolf when playing a lupus entails thinking along these lines a lot.
 
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The Technocracy is a fundamentally evil institution
So, I don't really feel up to engaging like, the whole post you made because I've got a slow burn fever rn, but lemme put another perspective on this matter, an engineers one to be specific. The Technocracy is evil as fuck, pretending otherwise is forgetting the entirety of their involvement most major Western political events from their foundation in the year 1850 to like, 1999 where their vast power was broken and they were rendered no more in control of the world than the Traditions.

However, fundamentally an evil institution ignores their foundation in its entirety and likely is sourced from not being as anal-retentive a reader of lore as me lol. The Technocratic Union, prior to the mid-19th century was something known as the Order of Reason, an enlightenment-era organization that was originally founded as the Craftsmason order back in the 11th century for one specific reason, magical tyranny.

At the time, the home remedies worked, yes, a herbal tea could cure a malaria fever! However, another thing that worked was when the local pagan goddess rolled around and demanded your firstborn, neither did anyone stop her, but some of the local magicians would be backing her and dragging your kids off. They were innately a reformist force that accomplished their goal of forcing an innately negative supernatural in the vast majority back and away from the head of humanity, and for their first half millennium of existence were completely in the right.

Dark Ages Mage goes into some of the twisted shit the Hermetic Order did as matter of course, or the sheer immoral sacrificial practices of the Old Faith, proto-Verbenae in a sense. But they can be pretty much nailed down to "Normal people aren't people" with various internal differences between the sects otherwise. The Hermetics also extended this to "all supernatural creatures aren't people, including our slave race of Djinn."

In this regard, I'd like to present the Technocratic Union as a fall by degrees. During the Sorcerers Crusade books, set in the Golden Age of Exploration era, heavily colonial, you have the Order of Reason begin cooperating with other Western Magick traditions such as the Order of Hermes to conquer, pillage and generally shatter other foreign Magi by force. During this period, a growth of cooperative anti-native thought prevailed instead of the uneasy peace and gentleman club-esque rival that had slowly come to life.

The Order of Reason become a colonial power in those centuries, and the fall by degrees continued further, here, the ideal was "If they refuse our superior understanding, they are uncivilized." This was incentivized by their vast cooperation with other, more reactionary traditional magicians which influenced them with religion and faith, making the Order of Reason an arm of the Catholic Church at the time.

A few more years pass, the 18th century rolls around and the Order of Reason is very comfortable in its presiding position over global politics, becoming a decaying aristocracy of sorts, cooperating and comingling with the traditional magicians as they firmed up their control over the planet and beyond. Now, this was all well and good until the Order of Hermes, circa the 19th century had a sudden massive resurgence in the Victorian occult craze.
The Order of Reason panicked somewhat, to put it mildly, and threw their lot in with royalty. In the 1850's World Technical Exhibit? Was that the name? You get what I mean, there was a massive Symposium, basically a meeting of big Technocrats, where a bunch of the old Order of Reasonites were brought together and, with a grand effort and likely many, many Mind effects, they reorganized the Order of Reason into the Technocratic Union.

Here, still, they weren't as bad as they were even a century ago, at the height of colonialism, fighting against slavery and the like due to humanist beliefs whilst slowly shedding the influence their rivals had on society, but then again, this is a fall by degrees, not all at once. They began getting involved in low-level politics, IE, of nations, once again putting Sleeper empowerment at the top of the priority list but, in doing so, became supportive of many ideologies which were otherwise ignored by the more laisses faire old Masters of the Order of Reason such as ethnonationalism, extreme socialism, all the pretty stuff that leads into the 20th century where they become the actual mess they are today with the endless support of wars, at least one full xenocide on record, though in this instance the aliens did attack first and a general boot wearing, Illuminati, the Man, authoritarian totalitarian add your adjectives of choice they've probably done it and perfected it and then left it behind as an inefficient form of oppression.

Anyways, this is a long way to say, the Traditions aren't right, the Technocracy isn't wrong and neither are founded on evil persay. But the Union having sins it must answer for is a very true statement.
In my opinion, the Traditions don't have similar crimes simply because they haven't had the opportunity to do so, as can actually be seen in Doissestep before it exploded, or any of the other traditionalist majority Horizon realms outside of like, Horizon itself, but they are definitely not actually guilty of the same level of things in the most part, ignoring the Order of Hermes and their multiple enslavements of entire species lol.

And by 1999, in my opinion, again, those sins are wiped completely clean, because everyone who was involved in them was vaporized and everyone who was left was just the struggling, feared masses of 20-30 somethings desperately doing their all to stay alive. We shouldn't judge them by the sins of their fathers, but rather by their own merits.

Apologies for the long post, I have a slight fever as well, so if it turns into circular arguments at some point, gimme the benefit of the doubt.
 
The Technocracy's evil are high modernisms evil. It's an authoritarian, hierarchical organization which clothes itself in the aesthetics of science while failing to actually hrw to any scientific standards or beliefs. It's goal is to control the world, and in service to that effort it seeks to simplify reality so that the world better matches it's graphs and figures.
 
The Technocracy's evil are high modernisms evil. It's an authoritarian, hierarchical organization which clothes itself in the aesthetics of science while failing to actually hrw to any scientific standards or beliefs. It's goal is to control the world, and in service to that effort it seeks to simplify reality so that the world better matches it's graphs and figures.
So this is a really common view that isn't really supported anymore. Keep in mind that the Union which could control the world is long gone. It was broken in the rising of the Ravnos Antediluvian, the chaos of the Avatar Storm and the pain of the 2000's. The Union as per Technocracy Reloaded is a pretty liberal organization that infiltrates rather than controls and seeks moreso to maintain modern civilization rather than become a boot-stomping authoritarian.

This extends to, once again, slowly allowing "side beliefs" into the consensus to acclimate and calm otherwise Traditions recruits, chiropractic practice is pointed out as one such thing. The 21st century was a period of de-radicalization for Mages, both the Traditions and Technocracy backed away from the very furthest edges of ideology and became more... gray. This does in fact lead to cooperation between the two and perhaps even a chance for a 1300-1400's style gentlemans peace sorta thing.

The Time Table hasn't been updated since 1998, there is no central plan anymore. Everything is up to local Comptrollers which command regions rather than a central government.
 
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Hmm. When it comes to showing someone is a Zaibatsu what are some good ways to show it in writing? For a Toreador Vampire? Rokakku Sadayori is said Zaibatsu in Taisho Japan. That's why.
 
When it comes to showing someone is a Zaibatsu what are some good ways to show it in writing?
By definition, a natural person cannot be a zaibatsu.

A zaibatsu is a family-controlled business conglomerate consisting of a holding company, a bank, and a collection of large, vertically integrated industrial subsidiaries.

Do you mean they're an important figure within a zaibatsu?
 
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By definition, a natural person cannot be a zaibatsu.

A zaibatsu is a family-controlled business conglomerate consisting of a holding company, a bank, and a collection of large, vertically integrated industrial subsidiaries.

Do you mean they're an important figure within a zaibatsu?

I mean he has four dots in Resources. So he is Zaibatsu level wealthy. Rokkaku has eight ghouls that help him manage his day to day estate and life. So that should provide some cover. I would say that he's the guy on the top.

On another note:

What should Rokkaku Sadayori be able to do if he has one dot in Necromancy? I'm basing this off taisho Japan. I'm also using v20 and v5 rules. V20 takes precedents however.

Cause like I do want to understand what he should be able to do.
 
Four dots can mean many different things. He could have his own company, as part of Zaibatsu; he could also lead an entire division on the conglomerate; he could be deputy of C-level executive, or even one himself, but probably not Chief Executive unless he has obligation to Chairman; he could own a small company but have lots of liquid cash from bribes because his small company is especially powerful. What matter is he has liquid asset he can spend quickly to deal whatever problem he encounter in the story, without needing to worry to, say, wait for his real estate to be bought, or stock to go down if he liquidates them. Adjust accordingly to your story's need.

As for Necromancy, cracking the book and reading the description, before devising rough capability that's more thematic of your setting is best way to do it. You have v20 book, I hope. Anyway, 1-dot of effect is generally sensory power; seeing the death, determining ghostly influence; small but useful. Or active but very weak one, like moving corpse flesh for a bit. As it is, I don't see why these abilities are exclusively Taisho Japan.
 
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Four dots can mean many different things. He could have his own company, as part of Zaibatsu; he could also lead an entire division on the conglomerate; he could be deputy of C-level executive, or even one himself, but probably not Chief Executive unless he has obligation to Chairman; he could own a small company but have lots of liquid cash from bribes because his small company is especially powerful. What matter is he has liquid asset he can spend quickly to deal whatever problem he encounter in the story, without needing to worry to, say, wait for his real estate to be bought, or stock to go down if he liquidates them. Adjust accordingly to your story's need.

As for Necromancy, cracking the book and reading the description, before devising rough capability that's more thematic of your setting is best way to do it. You have v20 book, I hope. Anyway, 1-dot of effect is generally sensory power; seeing the death, determining ghostly influence; small but useful. Or active but very weak one, like moving corpse flesh for a bit. As it is, I don't see why these abilities are exclusively Taisho Japan.

That's an interesting analysis and I appreciate it. I want to say that the company has 800 Employees and is base in Kyoto. Not sure if it makes it a big Zaibatsu or not. Certainly large but what else?

I'm going to say though he owns a large estate in Kyoto during this era (Taisho) but haven't worked out the details beyond his 30 Blood Dolls live there with him. His eight ghouls help with the day to day running of his operation. But that's it.


EDIT: I was also hoping for some ideas to show in the "After story" of my fic. Basically in this case Tanjirou and Nezuko are now Toreador Ancillae Vampires in the modern age of Japan (specifically 2019). They're vampires who need to drink blood but they're still very morale and deeply in love with each other. At the present I'm planning to make them have a humanity rating of 7. For this what would be some good ways to show that they've maintained this level of humanity rating?

In the "After story" I plan for them to have three dots in resources as well. Otherwise nothing much else. Just a happily married (incestous) vampire couple still in love with each other after a century of being Vampires.

Thanks for helping with the Necromancy. I think 1 dot could work here in letting him see the nature of death. And maybe summon them to talk? But not compel them to do his bidding or such.
 
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To be clear, this is the sort of thing you should discuss with your editor/friends/people you trust, I'm personally not that interested with the premise. I don't even watch the other part of crossover.
That's an interesting analysis and I appreciate it. I want to say that the company has 800 Employees and is base in Kyoto. Not sure if it makes it a big Zaibatsu or not. Certainly large but what else?

I'm going to say though he owns a large estate in Kyoto during this era (Taisho) but haven't worked out the details beyond his 30 Blood Dolls live there with him. His eight ghouls help with the day to day running of his operation. But that's it.
I'll say it's pretty big, especially in Taishou era. The 'what else' depends on your need, of course. For example, he has 800 employees - these employees presumably come from somewhere - nearby villages? And what sort of industry that's profitable and require that many employees?

Similarly, 30 blood dolls are fine and dandy - I don't know why you specifically pick thirty, but you might want to figure out why it's thirty blood dolls all the time. ... it's from Background, isn't it. Bah. Anyway, think how he got those blood dolls: he hunt them personally? Have his ghoul pick them? Part of payment of his duty on zaibatsu? Revenge? Etc.

Simlarly, eight ghouls. How does he get these ghouls? Who are they previously? Why did he chose them as his ghouls? How do those ghouls stay loyal? Remember he need to fed them his vitae, too - how does he decide which one get fed first, which one later? And more importantly, why does he need eight ghouls? And so on.

EDIT: I was also hoping for some ideas to show in the "After story" of my fic. Basically in this case Tanjirou and Nezuko are now Toreador Ancillae Vampires in the modern age of Japan (specifically 2019). They're vampires who need to drink blood but they're still very morale and deeply in love with each other. At the present I'm planning to make them have a humanity rating of 7. For this what would be some good ways to show that they've maintained this level of humanity rating
Well, just don't make them do things that'll require rolling Humanity at 7 or lower, I guess. So, show them being careful and don't kill their dolls, maybe friendly with villages, and so on. Maybe even explicitly spurned more 'inhuman' way of vampire. Oh, and participate and socializing with human too. Hang out in bar, help guarding village. Whatever.

Regarding resources, as said previously just consider how they got those resources. Looted from somewhere else? Patronage from senior vampire? Paid by village who think they're swell and kind vampire so better keep it that way? Private detective that only appear at night to investigate? Accountant, scribes, clerk, if they're literate and being vampire means they can work harder and do things more even in limited time because of daylight? Up to you, really.
 
I don't really care what get you off to, it's not my business. That's also why you want to counsel with someone you trust and in your corner instead of strangers on internet :V
 
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What should be a net worth of a Toreador with 3 dots in Resources?

Also I've already written the "before story" first chapter. Look it up if you want to find it.
 
What should be a net worth of a Toreador with 3 dots in Resources?

Also I've already written the "before story" first chapter. Look it up if you want to find it.

You shouldn't be creating a character for a story based on game mechanics (especially not to that degree), not least because inflation will have caused a number on the as-written values.

Do your research on the socioeconomic strata you want the character to occupy, then assign income and holdings in line with that.

(or just declare "he's rich enough that any casual purchase that isn't a superyacht is trivial" and don't bother tracking petty things like that)
 
The Technocracy's evil are high modernisms evil. It's an authoritarian, hierarchical organization which clothes itself in the aesthetics of science while failing to actually hrw to any scientific standards or beliefs. It's goal is to control the world, and in service to that effort it seeks to simplify reality so that the world better matches it's graphs and figures.
I've always kind of looked over at Network Zero and not-Autochthon out in the Umbra and...

For me, I kind of want to work with that idea more? I'm imagining some branch of the Order of Reason* who start receiving visions (because hey, it's the early-to-mid Middle Ages) of unutterably beautiful clockwork, of girders and cantilevered spans and great mountains built by human hands. They're bewitched by the dream of metal, and as they start to investigate some of the ideas which have been imparted to them... they work. Not only do they work, but there's something almost infectious about them.

The Consensus takes to them with an impressive fervor - and there have been other people in other lands who also dreamed of metal. Leonardo da Vinci. The Banū Mūsā. Villard de Honnecourt. Lu Ban. Yan Shi. The Benin Bronzemakers. The dream of metal, the emanation of this prehistoric machine-that-is-a-god-yet-not as it lies adrift in the Umbra, it's a source of power. Except unlike the Consensus, it's a power that doesn't have to humor the neuroses and bigotries of the human brain, a power that can twist and pull and prod at the minds of mankind instead of being entirely at their mercy. (There are other such things, of course. Many are, or once were, worshiped as gods. It's as fair a name for them as any, even if the Order of Reason - and later the Technocracy - detests the comparison.)

So the world turns, and the Order of Reason begins its ascent, following the dream of metal until it divides into a billion interwoven pathways that will one day be christened "science". And by calling on the dream, they draw its source closer to their world, until the thinnest shadow of it falls upon the Earth sometime in the 18th century or so.

The modern Technocracy is so powerful because they're beneficiaries of what, if you asked a Hermetic or a Verbena, looks a lot like centuries' worth of ritual worship and invocation of a god from beyond the world - but nobody knows what aspects of its influence are what the machine-that-is-a-god-yet-not would "want", and what are accidents, or human application of the tools it provides, or metaphysically distorted echoes of its nature. The Mechanicians, hands slick with the "efficiency" they had brought upon Ireland with help from figures like Lord Trevelyan, became the first to borrow the old Neo-Hermetic nostrum "ad fontes!" ("To the source!") and found a beachhead upon the Great Machine itself, which means that they were the first to try and define its nature and intent.

Is it any surprise that the people who authored the Great Famine and call it "efficiency" would then decide that 'their' Great Machine, ancient and unknowable and autochthonous (autochthonous, autochthonous, brought forth from the deep by its own will!) happened to agree with them on almost every point of their doctrine? The dream of metal spans all infinity, and it's little more than the background hum of the Machine. Could any human ever claim to have even the slightest understanding of what something like that might be, or might do, if it were ever brought to full waking? Could anyone even determine if it's currently asleep, or if it can ever awaken?


* Maybe a group who were messing with the Heptameron, since that's an occultist text which still inherently presumes that humans are/should be the ones in charge of all the weird spirit gribblies, and has a lot of mathematics and other proto-science which they'd love to pick apart and examine the underlying structures of.

Then again, it could just as easily have been a few members of the Order who originated from, and/or operated out of, a West European monastery which was big into drop hammers and pre-industrial forge work (in case you didn't know, there was a strong tradition of monks finding some kind of industry to turn their hands to when they weren't busy doing monk business, with a few modern day remnants in the forms of monastic vintners and apiaries). The big one I know of is what's now Ironbridge in Shropshire; the forges there were in operation for centuries thanks to being at a place where multiple rivers met, providing easy and plentiful access to water power for the machinery and easy transportation of raw ore in and finished goods out.
 
After playing mostly Spelljammer, Star Wars Saga and Stars Without Number (lots of space games for some reason), my group is pivoting back to the world of darkness, this time for some Hunter the Vigil, which puts me once again in the ST seat since I'm the resident advocate for all thing WoD/CoD related.

I am curious if anyone here has read Vigil 2e and what they thought of it. The only thing I remember hearing about it was that they changed VASCU from being FBI to being a private agency or something. While I am unlikely to run it as a full 2e game for multiple reason, if there's something worth checking out as material for inspiration or rules changes that people think are legitimely good I could consider it.

Related to that, I have the opportunity to get some copies of a few of the nWoD bluebooks, including Mysterious Places and Midnight Road. Any of those I should look out for as sources of good plot ideas or material?
 
Related to that, I have the opportunity to get some copies of a few of the nWoD bluebooks, including Mysterious Places and Midnight Road. Any of those I should look out for as sources of good plot ideas or material?
You should check them out they have lots of great fluff and plot hooks for Hunters. I presume your going through a rag tag bunch of people fight monsters playstlyez
 
You should check them out they have lots of great fluff and plot hooks for Hunters. I presume your going through a rag tag bunch of people fight monsters playstlyez
Oh yeah, we're still talking about specifics as we're not even starting char creation for a while, but the general agreement is for it be about random joes facing the supernatural, no Compacts or Conspiracies, for a good while at least. Also for it to be in the early 2000s, which gives me an excuse to dig up some old playlists for ambiance.
 
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