White Wolf's World of Darkness

[BiopunkOtrera]

So @FBH after the Technocracy told everyone alchemy and astrology were bad, I suppose in your world the Hermetics just removed those from their paradigm. And don't forget, after they disproved the existence of spirits, the Dreamspeakers suddenly stopped being able to do all magic, ever.
.

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No MJ, you're misunderstanding as usual. I'm suggesting that the Technocracy not believe in Chaos Theory or Quantum Mechanics. I'm suggesting that the Consensus/sleeper physics not be the same as the physics of the technocracy. Like, if you ask a technocrat about chaos theory, they'll scoff at it and say that that's disproved bullshit, a misunderstanding of mathmatics. In actuality, the universe is completely predictable. Stuff they've moved beyond.

Like, Faster than Light Travel is something that sleeper physics reject, yet technocratic physics allow.

I'm saying that the world doesn't operate under the technocratic paradigm. It's thematically inappropriate if the march of science and technology is the uncomplicated story of the rise of the technocracy. It's far more interesting if the Technocracy is itself now in decay, in a position both philosophically and practically where young mages can overthrow it, or young technocrats can reform it.

I'm also just throwing this out there, but I think for those who don't uncomplicatedly support the Technocracy, the position "all modern science is based on a giant conspiracy of evil securocrats, corrupt businessmen, mad scientists and other mad scientists" is a bit alarming, and having new physics being a rebellion against this seems like it gives mortal scientists a bit more of a chance to push back against the cruel bad guys.

...what?

The fact that the Etherites reject relativity is, like, literally why they are Etherites.

It'd be like deciding that making the Technocracy also religious fundamentalism and anarcho-primitivism just because

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The etherites splitting with general relativity doesn't actually make a great deal of sense to me, whatever trappings you want to use with them. So much of the Technocracy is based around predictability and control and interchangeability, and we're supposed to think they came up with the idea that building blocks of reality are relative to where you're standing?

Classic, pre-Chaos/Quantum/Relativity physics are a far better fit for the Technocratic paradigm.

It means you need to re-fluff the etherites but that's not a huge deal. There's a vast amount of weird old stuff in the order of reason's history you can base it on. Maybe "etherites" is just the name the order of Hermes gave them and it stuck. Or maybe the Technocracy was able to spin relativity in a way that destroyed the ones who'd introduced it to mess things up for them.

If you're committed to the idea of the etherites defecting over relativity though, Relativity itself is actually a rather different phenomena from QM or Chaos Theory. Relativity makes things relative, but they're still predictable and controllable. Chaos theory explicitly makes things hard to predict. One could perhaps suggest relativity was part of the change between the Order of Reason and the Technocracy as it now exists, with the decision being made to make the universe a far more alien place, more difficult for humans to voyage into, and would force them to cleave closer to institutions, to governments, and to areas of control, in the same way that science has been moved away from something an individual can do into something you need a whole lab complex and tons of researchers for.

Of course, this doesn't portray the technocrats in a good light, but you can easily imagine some technocratic agency talking about how with this new change to the consensus they would finally create the ultimate city wall, a locked box with the masses inside, which none would be able to escape, forcing all of them to accept the technocratic system.

It's not just that! He's also rejecting the idea that the Technocracy is Big Science and Organised Science, while the Etherites are Mad Science and Discredited Science.

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Not particularly. I reject the idea of the Etherites being wholly discredited science, and the Technocracy being all of modern physics. I think it's far more interesting if they've lost a few battles and the Consensus is not 100% how they wish it. Like, if it is, why can't they just blaze away with plasma weapons on the street? The technocracy do all kinds of wacky shit that defies conventional physicists.

I don't know, but even ignoring the fact that @EarthScorpion is my friend; I feel more inclined to trust the actual physicist with matters of physics to be quite honest.

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If we're making crude appeals to authority, I got most of this out of @Peel, who I happen to know has a PhD in physics.

 

[TheLastOne]

No, he has a point. Michelson-Morley was the experiment that pretty much nailed down ether as not existing, and that was a solid year before Einstein formalized relativity - they're separate events. We knew that something was up for a while before that, because the Maxwell equations that get you the speed of light leaves no dependence on your reference frame, but not precisely what, and until M-M we assumed that Maxwell was wrong and not Newtonian velocity vector addition.

That being said, it's still weird to say that Einstein was backed by the Etherites, given that he was the one that produced a viable alternative to the ether and got the scientific community behind him - thus shifting Consensus in the oMage world. The Etherites would've much preferred to have somehow discredited M-M, and intuition/the Consensus would've been on their side - Lorentzian velocity addition is weird as hell to a common sense that grew up in a context where 60 mph was "blazing fast." They had every reason to believe it was possible and every reason to try, so Einstein doesn't fit.

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Einstein wasn't connected to the Sons of Ether. Depending on edition, he was a NWO patsy (1st), or simply a brillent scientist who patched the hole left behind when the Etherites refused to 'fix' the damage removing Ether caused (2nd, revised). Remember, Einstein hated Quantum Mechanics. "God does not play dice with the universe."

That was exactly what the Sons were introducing. The Technocracy has spent the century since patching that interpretation out, but opening the door to spiritualists and others was the point. They've slowly lost ground here, but when it happened it was a major Etherite victory, and most of there current 'common' paradigm is based on it.

 

[Chehrazad]

If we're making crude appeals to authority, I got most of this out of @Peel, who I happen to know has a PhD in physics.

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I'm not making an appeal to authority. I legitimately just believe in @EarthScorpion because I know he has expertise in this area. Expertise which I know is confirmed by @Aleph who literally took her degree in particle physics and cosmology, which makes me far more liable to believe him. Because I know they're physicists, and I am liable to believe physicists when they talk about physics.

So when EarthScorpion tells me that you are misunderstanding quantum mechanis, I take into consideration that I like EarthScorpion; he's a man I trust, and he's a man I know, knows his stuff because he has a Major in physics. Then I consider that you have restarted an argument that generally drags this thread down into petty arguing about a topic that will reach no conclusion for no discernable reason, disincentivizes people from homebrewing (because everyone is busy arguing) and is generally a waste of everyone's time.

And then I'll side with EarthScorpion's side, because I have no reason to side with you or agree with your position.

I hope you've enjoyed this doorway into my thought process; perhaps it will increase your understanding of my position. Now I would like to understand what victories the Union and the Traditions have in your position, I am genuinely curious; inform me of the victories of both Union and it's enemies.

That was exactly what the Sons were introducing. The Technocracy has spent the century since patching that interpretation out, but opening the door to spiritualists and others was the point. They've slowly lost ground here, but when it happened it was a major Etherite victory, and most of there current 'common' paradigm is based on it.

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How does quantum mechanics open the door to spiritualists though?

 

[The Laurent]

disincentivizes people from homebrewing

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I'll try to get something out this weekend, maybe? Some people liked the Anant thing, some people clearly didn't (or didn't give a shit), so I might as well do more, I guess. It didn't really spark conversations, questions, or stop the arguments, but I tried.

 

[TheLastOne]

I'm not making an appeal to authority; I legitimately just believe in @EarthScorpion because I know he has expertise in this area; expertise which I know is confirmed by @Aleph who literally took her degree in particle physics and cosmology, which makes me far more liable to believe him. Because I know they're physicists, and I am liable to believe physicists when they talk about physics.

So when EarthScorpion tells me that you are misunderstanding quantum mechanis, I take into consideration that I like EarthScorpion; he's a man I trust, and he's a man I know, knows his stuff because he has a Major in physics. Then I consider that you have restarted an argument that generally drags this thread down into petty arguing about a topic that will reach no conclusion for no discernable reason, disincentivizes people from homebrewing (because everyone is busy arguing) and is generally a waste of everyone's time.

And then I'll side with EarthScorpion's side, because I have no reason to side with you or agree with your position.

I hope you've enjoyed this doorway into my thought process; perhaps it will increase your understanding of my position. Now I would like to understand what victories the Union and the Traditions have in your position, I am genuinely curious; inform me of the victories of both Union and it's enemies.

How does quantum mechanics open the door to spiritualists though?

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In real life? Not at all. In fiction, which Mage the Ascension is? Enough that it's its own sub-genre.

 

[Chehrazad]

I'll try to get something out this weekend, maybe? Some people liked the Anant thing, some people clearly didn't (or didn't give a shit), so I might as well do more, I guess. It didn't really spark conversations, questions, or stop the arguments, but I tried.

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This is exactly what I'm talking about; people (and I'm guilty too for that sake) get uninterested in commenting on homebrew, because everyone is arguing, and those who don't obsessively read Mage: The Ascension feel left out because Mage: The Ascension is eating all discussion space, and even a lot of those who do in fact obsessively read Mage: The Ascension are annoyed because this discussion has no conclusion and it will never reach one.

I considered doing some overhauls to Mage: The Awakening, some of the big ones I've been discussing before, but I just can't force myself to do so when there's an argument going on; maybe I'll get them done overnight perhaps.

 

[The Laurent]

This is exactly what I'm talking about; people (and I'm guilty too for that sake) get uninterested in commenting on homebrew, because everyone is arguing, and those who don't obsessively read Mage: The Ascension feel left out because Mage: The Ascension is eating all discussion space, and even a lot of those who do in fact obsessively read Mage: The Ascension are annoyed because this discussion has no conclusion and it will never reach one.

I considered doing some overhauls to Mage: The Awakening, some of the big ones I've been discussing before, but I just can't force myself to do so when there's an argument going on; maybe I'll get them done overnight perhaps.

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So, here's a question/thing I was thinking about.

In the Spire Perilous, there are the equivilent of Ghost Mages (to the extent that the Astral Realms book said 'stat them as ghost mages'). They have Influence as Arcana-alike, and can do a number of Rotes/Spells, though not to the same level of Creative Thaumaturgy as a living Mage (though I might bend that a little in homebrewing, anyways).

But they cannot leave the Gardens that they are interred/imprisoned/held in.

Here's a question: can their magic/effects do so? If a Garden Prisoner curses you with Fate-alike, does it last even beyond the confines of his or her Garden?

 

[TheLastOne]

This is exactly what I'm talking about; people (and I'm guilty too for that sake) get uninterested in commenting on homebrew, because everyone is arguing, and those who don't obsessively read Mage: The Ascension feel left out because Mage: The Ascension is eating all discussion space, and even a lot of those who do in fact obsessively read Mage: The Ascension are annoyed because this discussion has no conclusion and it will never reach one.

I considered doing some overhauls to Mage: The Awakening, some of the big ones I've been discussing before, but I just can't force myself to do so when there's an argument going on; maybe I'll get them done overnight perhaps.

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Create a Mage the Ascension thread and exile all discussion of it there. It's contentious enough that it probably would help the rest of the WoD.

 

[Chehrazad]

Here's a question: can their magic/effects do so? If a Garden Prisoner curses you with Fate-alike, does it last even beyond the confines of his or her Garden?

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I would rule yes; the ghost-wizard-merlin-alike in his tower should be able to curse you to die by the hands of those you love when you offend him in the Astral Realm.

Create a Mage the Ascension thread and exile all discussion of it there. It's contentious enough that it probably would help the rest of the WoD.

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Or hope a moderator that isn't spending his time arguing in the thread (i.e: me) makes a thread policy to banish this infernal monstrosity.

 

[MJ12 Commando]

No MJ, you're misunderstanding as usual. I'm suggesting that the Technocracy not believe in Chaos Theory or Quantum Mechanics. I'm suggesting that the Consensus/sleeper physics not be the same as the physics of the technocracy. Like, if you ask a technocrat about chaos theory, they'll scoff at it and say that that's disproved bullshit, a misunderstanding of physics. In actuality, the universe is completely predictable. Stuff they've moved beyond.

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...what. Just like how modern physicists scoff at Newtonian physics, right? Oh wait no they don't. They say it's a simplification of the more complex reality of physics, one which works just fine under most circumstances. Chaos theory isn't even a thing in the sense you're turning it into. It's an entire field of scientific study. It's about compensating for the fact that predicting things is hard. It exists in part because people kept trying to predict things pre-chaos theory and could not do so. That's why pretty much every field has adopted chaos modeling to some extent. Stochastic modeling is so closely intertwined with applied economics that saying this is something the Technocracy rejects is ludicrous.

The Technocracy totally embraces quantum theory and chaos theory. Uncritically. Every integrated circuit the Technocracy mints, every railgun and nanoaugmentation and quantum computer the Technocracy builds, is a shrine to its adoption of quantum theory. Every Syndicate economist who uses equations based on Brownian motion, every quantum computer they have running econometric predictions on possible actions, every Iterator or Enforcer or NWO supercommando who has a tactical hypercomputer chipped into the back of their mind, is a shrine to chaos theory.

Like, there's a VIP transport in the Technomancer's Toybox which explicitly uses quantum effects to protect its VIPs. Under your logic, this is like the Secret Service loading the presidential limo with warding talismans made of eye of newt to protect them from bullets, rather than using actual armor. And apparently Technocrats go along with it because lol Technocrats r dum.

Like, Faster than Light Travel is something that sleeper physics reject, yet technocratic physics allow.

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Again, you are wrong. Modern physics explicitly does not reject faster than light travel. It rejects that you can do so without the capability of time travel. Modern physics assumes that because we don't see much in the way of time travel, FTL is impossible, and both relativity and causality hold. Like, if you don't believe me, read Stephen Hawking.

Space and Time Warps

He thinks there's some sort of Chronology Protection Conjecture, but that time travel would otherwise be possible. Wait... doesn't the Technocracy know that time travel and FTL are both possible and that there's a Chronology Protection Conjecture? Whooooops.

I'm saying that the world doesn't operate under the technocratic paradigm. It's thematically inappropriate if the march of science and technology is the uncomplicated story of the rise of the technocracy. It's far more interesting if the Technocracy is itself now in decay, in a position both philosophically and practically where young mages can overthrow it, or young technocrats can reform it.

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Because society boils down to merely science and technology? Yes, the world doesn't operate under the technocratic paradigm. Because scientific theory is not how the layman actually understands the world. Your misunderstandings of what quantum theory and chaos theory actually mean and your insistence that they are somehow blows against the idea that the universe is knowable and quantifiable (notice that they don't say deterministic and predictable) are ample evidence of that. The hubris of the Technocracy is the materialistic idea that science and technology are the only things which matter in progress. This is explicitly called out in 2E. The Technocracy might provide prosperity and safety and better living standards, but there's a void that their hardcore materialism leaves, a void which the Traditions can fill. Not 'the Technocracy is hubristic because they don't science good.' And moreover, it's kind of ludicrous when the biggest Traditions victories come only from Technocratic defectors.

Moreover, your argument literally makes the Etherites and Technocracy incompetent. The Etherites inserted a horrifying cancer into the middle of the Technocratic paradigm... which does exactly nothing, because the Etherites are dumb and useless.

COUNCIL OF TRADITIONS: "You say you have brought us a great victory. Please, explain."

ETHERITES: "Well, we introduced the idea that predicting things in the future is hard to the consensus."

COUNCIL OF TRADITIONS: "Didn't they know that already? Because they use the same casting rules as we do, and it's hard as fuck to gather 50 successes on a Time 2 spell unless it's something super-important, especially when you have guys who are trying to counter it."

ETHERITES: "Yes, but now we called it chaos theory!"

COUNCIL OF TRADITIONS: "So... there's no actual meaningful difference between what people believed before, which was 'it's hard to predict the future' and what people believe now?"

ETHERITES: "I guess?"

COUNCIL OF TRADITIONS: "Did you come with a receipt? We want to see if the Technocracy will take you back, because maybe if the Technocracy keeps you guys they'll be easier to defeat."

It doesn't make anyone impressive. It just makes everyone losers.

I'm also just throwing this out there, but I think for those who don't uncomplicatedly support the Technocracy, the position "all modern science is based on a giant conspiracy of evil securocrats, corrupt businessmen, mad scientists and other mad scientists" is a bit alarming, and having new physics being a rebellion against this seems like it gives mortal scientists a bit more of a chance to push back against the cruel bad guys.

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I'm just throwing this out there, but I think for those who want to support the Traditions, the position "the only victories that matter are the ones based on materialistic concerns of science and technology" is a bit alarming. But here we're back to the core point, which is 'you want the Technocracy to be the Seers of the Throne except nonsensical, and whenever the Technocracy's good points prevent them from being the Seers, you want to hack those off.' (But not the bad parts. Oh, the bad parts need to stay.)

Einstein wasn't connected to the Sons of Ether. Depending on edition, he was a NWO patsy (1st), or simply a brillent scientist who patched the hole left behind when the Etherites refused to 'fix' the damage removing Ether caused (2nd, revised). Remember, Einstein hated Quantum Mechanics. "God does not play dice with the universe."

That was exactly what the Sons were introducing. The Technocracy has spent the century since patching that interpretation out, but opening the door to spiritualists and others was the point. They've slowly lost ground here, but when it happened it was a major Etherite victory, and most of there current 'common' paradigm is based on it.

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Yes, this is a wonderful explanation except for the inconvenient problem that quantum mechanics has absolutely nothing to do with spiritualism.

In real life? Not at all. In fiction, which Mage the Ascension is? Enough that it's its own sub-genre.

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Yes, a genre of sci-fi created in 1996 is an explanation for the things which happened in 1905.

 

[TheLastOne]

...what. Just like how modern physicists scoff at Newtonian physics, right? Oh wait no they don't. They say it's a simplification of the more complex reality of physics, one which works just fine under most circumstances. Chaos theory isn't even a thing in the sense you're turning it into. It's an entire field of scientific study. It's about compensating for the fact that predicting things is hard. It exists in part because people kept trying to predict things pre-chaos theory and could not do so. That's why pretty much every field has adopted chaos modeling to some extent. Stochastic modeling is so closely intertwined with applied economics that saying this is something the Technocracy rejects is ludicrous.

The Technocracy totally embraces quantum theory and chaos theory. Uncritically. Every integrated circuit the Technocracy mints, every railgun and nanoaugmentation and quantum computer the Technocracy builds, is a shrine to its adoption of quantum theory. Every Syndicate economist who uses equations based on Brownian motion, every quantum computer they have running econometric predictions on possible actions, every Iterator or Enforcer or NWO supercommando who has a tactical hypercomputer chipped into the back of their mind, is a shrine to chaos theory.

Like, there's a VIP transport in the Technomancer's Toybox which explicitly uses quantum effects to protect its VIPs. Under your logic, this is like the Secret Service loading the presidential limo with warding talismans made of eye of newt to protect them from bullets, rather than using actual armor. And apparently Technocrats go along with it because lol Technocrats r dum.



Again, you are wrong. Modern physics explicitly does not reject faster than light travel. It rejects that you can do so without the capability of time travel. Modern physics assumes that because we don't see much in the way of time travel, FTL is impossible, and both relativity and causality hold. Like, if you don't believe me, read Stephen Hawking.

Space and Time Warps

He thinks there's some sort of Chronology Protection Conjecture, but that time travel would otherwise be possible. Wait... doesn't the Technocracy know that time travel and FTL are both possible and that there's a Chronology Protection Conjecture? Whooooops.



Because society boils down to merely science and technology? Yes, the world doesn't operate under the technocratic paradigm. Because scientific theory is not how the layman actually understands the world. Your misunderstandings of what quantum theory and chaos theory actually mean and your insistence that they are somehow blows against the idea that the universe is knowable and quantifiable (notice that they don't say deterministic and predictable) are ample evidence of that. The hubris of the Technocracy is the materialistic idea that science and technology are the only things which matter in progress. This is explicitly called out in 2E. The Technocracy might provide prosperity and safety and better living standards, but there's a void that their hardcore materialism leaves, a void which the Traditions can fill. Not 'the Technocracy is hubristic because they don't science good.' And moreover, it's kind of ludicrous when the biggest Traditions victories come only from Technocratic defectors.

Moreover, your argument literally makes the Etherites and Technocracy incompetent. The Etherites inserted a horrifying cancer into the middle of the Technocratic paradigm... which does exactly nothing, because the Etherites are dumb and useless.

COUNCIL OF TRADITIONS: "You say you have brought us a great victory. Please, explain."

ETHERITES: "Well, we introduced the idea that predicting things in the future is hard to the consensus."

COUNCIL OF TRADITIONS: "Didn't they know that already? Because they use the same casting rules as we do, and it's hard as fuck to gather 50 successes on a Time 2 spell unless it's something super-important, especially when you have guys who are trying to counter it."

ETHERITES: "Yes, but now we called it chaos theory!"

COUNCIL OF TRADITIONS: "So... there's no actual meaningful difference between what people believed before, which was 'it's hard to predict the future' and what people believe now?"

ETHERITES: "I guess?"

COUNCIL OF TRADITIONS: "Did you come with a receipt? We want to see if the Technocracy will take you back, because maybe if the Technocracy keeps you guys they'll be easier to defeat."

It doesn't make anyone impressive. It just makes everyone losers.



I'm just throwing this out there, but I think for those who want to support the Traditions, the position "the only victories that matter are the ones based on materialistic concerns of science and technology" is a bit alarming. But here we're back to the core point, which is 'you want the Technocracy to be the Seers of the Throne except nonsensical, and whenever the Technocracy's good points prevent them from being the Seers, you want to hack those off.' (But not the bad parts. Oh, the bad parts need to stay.)



Yes, this is a wonderful explanation except for the inconvenient problem that quantum mechanics has absolutely nothing to do with spiritualism.



Yes, a genre of sci-fi created in 1996 is an explanation for the things which happened in 1905.

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Codified in 1996, but if you think that's the beginning of Quantum Magic in fiction, I may or may not have a bridge to sell you. It may or may not be -

a. On Earth
b. Above Water
c. Part of a tired overused joke.


And here.

Tabletop - Mage the Ascention Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

Because frankly it has eaten this thread a bunch of times at this point, and it isn't fair to all the other discussion.

 

[Broken25]

MUAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Still, shouldn't the Traditions be able to influence the Consensus? If neither the VA and the SoE have actually made any strides in the Consensus, then what's the point? And considering how varied many of the Technocratic beliefs are (or at least, they clearly have 'scientific' disagreements) over time this should create, you know, friction? As people raised in a Consensus influenced by "X" check X out[1] and, since they're not working off the Purple Paradigm, find that, "While this or that claim is overstated, there is some truth in yada yada, etc, etc" unless there's mind-editors literally standing behind them at all times making sure that they damn their lying eyes.

[1] When it's "Technocracy Adjacent" like some of the Traditions are, that is. Obviously, a Technocrat who says, "Hey, I think spirits are real and prayer cures AIDs" is sorta doomed.

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@The Laurent got caught in the TU/Traditions debate.

The swarm is growing.

 

[ChineseDrone]

I mean, guys, there's a pretty elegant solution to synthesize both of your viewpoints here:

TECHNOCRACY: Alright, world, we've developed an elegant and effective theory for explaining the properties of subatomic particles here called Quantum Theory, which explains that the motion of subatomic particles is probabilistic rather than simply deterministic and that it's difficult to measure such things without expensive equipment because of the scales involved. It's not finished, but we believe that with enough time and a long period of study we may be able to-

SONS OF ETHER: QUANTUM MECHANICS LETS YOU DO MAGIC!

SLEEPERS: Woah, that sounds neat

TECHNOCRACY: Wait what no that's not what we-

SONS OF ETHER: AND SINCE EVERYTHING IS RANDOM THAT MEANS YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT PHYSICS IS YOUR BITCH! USE QUANTUM MECHANICS TO GET PSYCHIC POWERS! YOUR CONSCIOUS OBSERVATION DETERMINES REALITY!

TECHNOCRACY: That's not what we said at a-

SLEEPERS: Awesome! Man, gimme some of that quantum magic shit

TECHNOCRACY: Goddammit.

The Etherites are totally right that quantum mechanics means magic--because this is a linguistic debate over what "quantum mechanics" means, whether it refers to the Etherite vision of "It's magic with particles" or the Technocratic vision of... what it actually is in real life. The Technocracy doesn't have not believe in actual QM to make the Etherites not have won a victory by making their vision of QM, the fake magical one, more synonymous with what the masses think Quantum Mechanics is.

In this sense it's actually much more relevant social commentary to, both pointing out how the meanings of words are socially determined and can be subverted by a counterculture to mean something different than what society says (for Traditions campaigns) and by demonstrating the weakness of the Technocratic paradigm at actually reaching people with ideas that usually seem bland and unattractive compared to exciting and fantastical RDisms, something for the PCs to confront (for Technocracy campaigns).

 

[MJ12 Commando]

I mean, guys, there's a pretty elegant solution to synthesize both of your viewpoints here:

Click to shrink...

This is actually pretty much my viewpoint and has been for a while? The Traditions, maybe the Etherites in specific, have been hugely successful in taking Technocratic concepts which boil down to 'science is hard, listen to experts' and turning them into 'bitch we can do magic' while the Technocracy just facepalms repeatedly and wonders why they can't stamp out the innate human desire for simple solutions and easy fixes. (While engaging in simple but flawed solutions and finding easy but incomplete fixes).

This fits with the history of quantum mechanics where the complicated, esoteric theory came early and the pop culture simplification came later.

 

[The Laurent]

Fuck it. If it'll stop argument.

Or start a new argument.

 

[The Laurent]

Hosea, The Hand of God

"God sets us to a task. You will help."

Description: He isn't much visited, though those who have have spoken of his wisdom. The last such report was two and a half decades ago, but that doesn't mean it's unreliable.[1] Hosea is a former Silver Ladder Obrimos from the 1600s, who was renowned as almost having reached the somewhat rare Diamond Mastery (Mastery of Four Arcana) before his sudden and inexplicable disappearance on an journey to the Astral to consult an Aeon. Many believed that he might have reached Archmastery, and so when he was discovered a century later as a prisoner of the Garden, it was somewhat surprising.

As were his words. He had apparently fallen battling the Tryphonides that ate away at the Spire Perilous, and yet instead of returning to his body, shocked but still alive, he died. There the story grows murky, but he does not explain himself. He sees no need.

Hosea is a tall, blonde man in his late fifties, wearing a white robe, and he has all of the tools that were once necessary for his magic, including a staff, a cross, and a chalice modeled after that of the grail.

His Garden is a paradise of greenery and lush life, including many paradoxical angelic creatures that are given life and mind by his magic, far away from Sleepers who might unravel them, as well as choirs of ephemeral beings singing hymns to the glory of God who is the manifestation of human will triumphant. It is a pleasant place, and he is a pleasant host, providing milk and honey for guests. And what does he ask in return for a chance to journey onward? The first time he asks for proof that you have slain at least one Typhonide, whether physical proof, or a memory that he may view.

It is his driving goal to destroy them and protect the Spire, which he worships as a monument to what might have been. Those who do well in this quest might soon receive other requests, usually involving spreading the Silver Ladder's ideals in the Temenos, or attacking those that by hearsay he determines are a danger to the future of Atlantis.

People find themselves coming back again and again, and given time he eventually shows them an Atlantean Artifact that he found in his Garden when he arrived. And after that?

Well, after that they crusade.

For unknown to all of the records, he is a madman, who has been growing more brittle and more dangerous, and as a former Master of Prime, Life, and Mind, and an Adept in Forces, even in his weakened ghostly form he is quite dangerous. Those who keep on returning, drawn by the easy way to a safe part of the Dreaming Earth (for he always sends them somewhere safe, though often brittle) are slowly changed to fit his ideal.

They becoming zealots, and most inevitably die young, driving themselves at impossible goals that they are far too young to achieve.

His artifact is a strange one. It is a spike with a speaking tube of sorts drilled into it. He slams it into the Astral form of a willing or unwilling participant, and then speaks words that become truth directly into their brain. Those who are so mutilated, or affected by his magic, are often driven to replicate it, and once they begin savaging themselves to fit his idea of a perfect Mage, they are hard to detect, and even harder to trace to him, since they erase and destroy their own memories that might point to him.

They are the fingers of this trapped Mage, and one day he dreams of saving the Spire and recreating Atlantis from his Garden Paradise.

It is the dream of a thing that is no longer quite human, despite covering itself in a pious, helpful facade. And with his manipulation of the texts mentioning him, he hopes that sooner or later he'll draw more and more helpful people into his web, where he can show them the truth, burning away their laziness and lack of passion and replacing it with the drive that had gotten him so far in life.

In the meantime, he greets travelers with a smile and a simple enough Ordeal, at least for an experienced cabal. The first time through is always the easiest.

[1] This is made with my 1920s Quest in mind, but any time period can be filled in, really, without changing it.

Storytelling Hints:

• Your player's Cabal is trying to get to the Anima Mundi, and runs across him. How long will he be able to hide his nature from him? And if they discover it, what can a former Master of Forces do?
• Recently, some members of the Consilium are acting odd, differently from usual. They're pushing for more and more aggressive actions towards some disliked group. Perhaps they want to call the Guardians to task. Perhaps they're jumping at the shadows of hidden Scelesti, or your Consilium has a temporary truce with the Seers of the area that they want to shatter. Either way, strangely enough… their ideas seem to be picking up steam.

Mechanics: This is just a quick list of the kinds of things he can do with each of the Arcana he's slated to have for sure (you might add more if you want, or not). Not necessarily 100% complete, but a decent idea, hopefully.

Life (5): He can sense life-force, which he uses to track people down who have run through his Garden, and can increase his own initiative with magic, and change his appearance. Additionally, he can hone and degrade the form of people, and heal wounds. Finally, he can create life, which he uses to populate his Garden with 'angelic' beings.

Mind (5): He can read minds and hide his own mental state, as well as improve his first impression with others, and remove and add memories, personality traits, or wholesale parts of a target's psyche. He can shield his mind from intrusion, and weaken the mind of others, the better to manipulate them. He can speak any language, cause hallucinations, and create goetic entities, which he uses to fill the bodies of his 'angels.'

Prime (5): He can dispel and see magic (Supernal vision), as well as hiding the magic of others or his spells, and can channel mana. He can give others Mage Sight, and yet also gives them a new purpose, forging a Holy Mission by impressing upon them one of his delusions.

Forces (4): They can influence and control electricity, fire, and light, but not heat or radio waves, which came long after they died. They can protect themselves from the environment. Hosea can levitate in the air, strike down people with gathered energy suddenly unleashed, and can transform one sort of energy into another.

*******

A/N: So this was quick, rough, and the 'mechanics' was just a rough draft idea of the kinds of things he can do. So it might not be great/might be too broad, but either way, he's meant to be a big threat that starts off looking like something a little more innocuous. Sorta the flipside to how you have this bitter hermit, but no, he's not secretly evil or anything, he's just a bitter old man.

 

[BiopunkOtrera]

I'm not making an appeal to authority; I legitimately just believe in @EarthScorpion because I know he has expertise in this area; expertise which I know is confirmed by @Aleph who literally took her degree in particle physics and cosmology, which makes me far more liable to believe him. Because I know they're physicists, and I am liable to believe physicists when they talk about physics.

So when EarthScorpion tells me that you are misunderstanding quantum mechanis, I take into consideration that I like EarthScorpion; he's a man I trust, and he's a man I know, knows his stuff because he has a Major in physics. Then I consider that you have restarted an argument that generally drags this thread down into petty arguing about a topic that will reach no conclusion for no discernable reason, disincentivizes people from homebrewing (because everyone is busy arguing) and is generally a waste of everyone's time.

And then I'll side with EarthScorpion's side, because I have no reason to side with you or agree with your position.

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Got to tell you that's actually a classic appeal to authority

I'll deal with the rest tomorrow.

...what. Just like how modern physicists scoff at Newtonian physics, right? Oh wait no they don't.

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This whole section is just smoke. You're not actually making any arguments about what I'm saying, you're just restating your position and throwing details at the subject to try to get it to look like you made an argument. Obviously, if we're going to go with my explanation, we need to remove any references to quantum or th elike from the technocracy paradigm but that's fine. White Wolf didn't get physics.

To be honest, when I read your argument, I think it's pretty obvious you don't get chaos theory and you haven't thought very hard about the way the consensus works. Like, obviously the common sense understanding of physics does not hold sway, because if it did, then well, the common sense understanding of physics would hold sway. Like, you wouldn't get a difference between pop quantum mechanics and quantum mechanics, because pop quantum mechanics would be what experiments would report.

The only way I think to fluff it would be to suggest people generally have faith in scientists, and thus the consensus tends to back up what they believe.

Thus, the introduction of chaos theory (which honestly I think you don't understand) would have a large effect, because it would destroy the scientific consensus about the predictability of the universe. If you actually study the history of the stuff they thought they could do before Chaos Theory became a thing, you'll notice it reads like a list of ItX, Syndicate and New World Order Rotes. Predict the Weather? Predict Markets? Predict human behavior in large groups? These are all things that the Technocracy wants to be able to do, wants to be able to introduce to the consensus, but now here's this stubborn new physics which means that they can't.

As for the second part, whether science and technology are society? No, they aren't, but they are the basis of the technocracy's power over it. It's right there in the name technocracy. It has far more thematic heft if the Technocracy has lost the ability to make sleeper physics work the way it wants them to work than it does if they've just, I dunno, lost the ability to prevent people reading harry potter books.

 

[The Laurent]

Got to tell you that's actually a classic appeal to authority

I'll deal with the rest tomorrow.


This whole section is just smoke. You're not actually making any arguments about what I'm saying, you're just restating your position and throwing details at the subject to try to get it to look like you made an argument. Obviously, if we're going to go with my explanation, we need to remove any references to quantum or th elike from the technocracy paradigm but that's fine. White Wolf didn't get physics.

To be honest, when I read your argument, I think it's pretty obvious you don't get chaos theory and you haven't thought very hard about the way the consensus works. Like, obviously the common sense understanding of physics does not hold sway, because if it did, then well, the common sense understanding of physics would hold sway. Like, you wouldn't get a difference between pop quantum mechanics and quantum mechanics, because pop quantum mechanics would be what experiments would report.

The only way I think to fluff it would be to suggest people generally have faith in scientists, and thus the consensus tends to back up what they believe.

Thus, the introduction of chaos theory (which honestly I think you don't understand) would have a large effect, because it would destroy the scientific consensus about the predictability of the universe. If you actually study the history of the stuff they thought they could do before Chaos Theory became a thing, you'll notice it reads like a list of ItX, Syndicate and New World Order Rotes. Predict the Weather? Predict Markets? Predict human behavior in large groups? These are all things that the Technocracy wants to be able to do, wants to be able to introduce to the consensus, but now here's this stubborn new physics which means that they can't.

As for the second part, whether science and technology are society? No, they aren't, but they are the basis of the technocracy's power over it. It's right there in the name technocracy. It has far more thematic heft if the Technocracy has lost the ability to make sleeper physics work the way it wants them to work than it does if they've just, I dunno, lost the ability to prevent people reading harry potter books.

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Holy fuck, we just made a new thread. Go there.

Or stay here and talk about my crazy Obrimos. Or Changelings. Or something, anything else!

 

[Bel]

I rather like your crazy Obrimos, even though I'm not really up on Mage the Awakening cosmology (the 1st edition book really needed those supplements that I have now but haven't really read all the way through.). I kind of like the 'the first hits free' you have going there and a almost arch-master with multiple masteries could give some pretty neat boons to a newly formed group of young mages.

 

[notanautomaton]

You know, I like to think that the Traditions look at people who decide to pick fights about which paradigm is better the same way I (and other third parties) look at the people who pick Tradition Technocracy fights in this thread.

In an attempt to draw the discussion out of this hole we've (you've) dug, I'll be posting some MtAsc homebrew/expansion; namely a large analysis on various paradigms and easy ways to pick your own. I'm doing this since 'make up a a paradigm' is always the hardest part of the process, and one of the few things M20 tried to do right is try to help people with that. It did it badly, but hey, it tried. I'm thinking of doing Etherites first, anyone want to request future ones? (I'll be somewhat returning to my Rebuild of the Traditions to structure this, though I probably won't be redoing it, since every time I try to I get derailed with bad memories of a guy over on the OP forums who just couldn't handle it)

 

[MJ12 Commando]

Holy fuck, we just made a new thread. Go there.

Or stay here and talk about my crazy Obrimos. Or Changelings. Or something, anything else!

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Demons! Like, Demons are cool, but Angels are kind of lame because of nWoD spirit powers (which mean smart spirits are automatically super swole and the other problems @EarthScorpion found). I wonder how to do Angels as a 'splat' insofar as they have 9 stats and relevant skills and superpowers so that they're more interesting to deal with than generic 'also you fight spirits who have generic and boring spirit rules.'

 

[ChineseDrone]

So is, like, actual oMage homebrew and other discussion OK here, or are we moving everything, not just the Tech/Trad eternal debate?

pls no exile

 

[TheLastOne]

So is, like, actual oMage homebrew and other discussion OK here, or are we moving everything, not just the Tech/Trad eternal debate?

pls no exile

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Any discussion ever peripheral to mage eventually gets into peoples assumptions about mage, which continues to get more obnoxious to one side or the other till they feel they have to respond, sparking off a new mage debate. Lets just move it all over.

Like there's a reason I've been avoiding this thread for months even though I like both Mage and the WoD. I find the discussion boring and aggravating, but people will just keep whitewashing the Technocracy, losing track of what makes Mage Mage, until I feel I have to respond. And I don't like it, I don't find the discussion fun or enlightening or enjoyable. It's just a slog.

Imagine what it's like for the people who don't LIKE Mage the Ascension.

 

[notanautomaton]

Paradigm and You (If you threadmark this, use this as the title, and I'll delete this line)

Paradigm is the hardest part of building a character for new players, leaving most with fairly uninspired examples of their Tradition, cribbed right from the Traditionbook/write-up in core. This will be a guide to building a unique and interesting paradigm. Next will be a large number of overarching paradigms (with a few fuller examples) that you can either expand on, steal wholesale, or use as inspiration.

Now, what is a paradigm? A paradigm has two parts: How you think the world works, and how you do magic. (and science, but just calling it magic for now for the sake of convenience. When I do one of the actual write-ups I'll call it based on what the faction does.) The key is that you have to take advantage of how you think the world works to do magic. You can't call on the power of an archangel if you don't believe in them, for instance. However, how you think the world works does not have to only be your way of casting magic.

For instance, the Technocracy has one (or five related ones) ways the world works, but each accepts that you can do things differently. Iteration X believes that hard technology is the way to go, but also accepts that the Progenitors can make raptors that shoot lasers from their cloacas, and doesn't argue that this is impossible. They might think that hard technology is better, but they don't deny that the other ways of doing things exist. Notably, this must include your enemies as well. The Technocracy accepts that magic exists, they just think that it's morally wrong (due to degrading reality), only works because mages have superpowers, and is horribly unreliable.

Interestingly, one manner of doing magic is to enforce your way of looking at things on the world. For instance, a NWO agent can enforce magic's unreliability on a mage (mechanically doing a Prime, Forces, Life, whatever effect) simulating paradox. They don't generally need any tools to do this. Likewise, a Euthanatos could make a bad person unlucky. You could even have a guy who's convinced that they're living in a fairy tale, who constantly unconsciously does magic similar to Talecrafting from CtL. (I'm playing around with having a paradigm stat for things like this. Low numbers means you have a loosy goosey 'anything goes' paradigm, high numbers means that you're a specialist Technocrat or some equivalent)

The more mainstream method of doing magic is more relevant to our discussion, however, and is what we'll be doing.

Now, first come up with a way the world works. This should be pretty overarching, and should include several ways of doing magic. (Implicit is that your way of doing things is the best, with self depreciating paradigms being anomalies). There are two main ways of doing things here. Either everyone is using your paradigm, or there are other sources of magic. If you're a Verbena, are Technocrats and Etherites doing magic secretly/self-delusionally? Or are they actually doing science, for real?

Example 1: Jen wants to play a Life mage, with a focus on animal minions. She decides to play a Verbena. She watched a lot of Captain Planet as a kid, so she decides that all life and energy comes from Gaia, the Earth-mother. All the gods and spirits and animals and humans are her children, in a real and physical way. Everything used to live in harmony until the Technocracy started raping the earth with their technology and evil vibes and dark, patriarchal magic (which they got rid of later). She decides that people who do magic the right way have it come from Gaia, while people who do magic the wrong way pervert her. (there's a middle ground composed of things like Etherites, Adepts, and Hermetics)

Example 2: Ken wants to play a Life mage, with a focus on animal minions. He decides to play a Progenitor. He decides that all things can be found in nature, either on Earth or on other planets, and what can't can be derived. You can go outside of biology, but why bother messing around with metal to cludge together a laserbeam when there's a species of alien that can do it naturally? Why bother with difficult artificial intelligences when nature already has intelligence? Sure there are other ways of doing things, but they're pretty inefficient (in the Technocracy) or evil-bad-wrong (outside of it).

Secondly, come up with a vague idea of how your character's magic works. This should be about as overarching as the various Technocratic Convention's paradigms. Come up with a bunch of ideas for how someone would do magic in that paradigm, as many as you can manage, time, energy and creativity permitting. Right now these can be pretty vague. Then pick out the one that most interests you, that fits with your character the best, whatever.

Example 1: Jen decides that naturally nature magic is the closest to Gaia. Other people can play around with spirits and gods and karma, but going straight to the source is the best. She comes up with a violent ascetic who's self-harm is rewarded with physical power and animal friends who drink his blood, a Disney princess who lives in harmony with nature and has animal friends, and a mythical species preservationist who works to preserve mythical species and has animal friends from those that she saves. She decides on the Disney princess.

Example 2: Ken decides that naturally since nature holds everything, he'll want something to do with that. His first idea is an animal trainer, who has a menagerie of strange creatures from earth and beyond that he trains to help him. His second idea is a geneticist who creates strange chimeras. His third idea is a guy who enhances existing animals with drugs, cybernetics, and stuff. He decides to go with the geneticist.

Finally, expand on that paradigm. How does each of the spheres manifest, if at all? (If the spheres and paradigm don't link up, change them) What kind of things do they use to help them do magic? What kind of things do they need to do magic? How do the various imperfections (sphere levels, things that need absurd numbers of successes, paradox) manifest. What does their magic look like? How specialized is their magic, and how easily can they go outside of their zone?

Example 1: Jen looks at her sheet, and decides that she needs Life and Mind and Correspondence to get the effects she sees as being core to the paradigm. She sees her character as getting her magic from being in tune with nature, with little in the way of actual ritual. She's kind of taken with the Disney Princess metaphor, so she adds in singing, helping nature, and some stuff with crystals to her tools. Her Life magic generally manifests itself in healing, and enhancing animals. Her Mind magic manifests in changing the behavior of animals and people in one specific direction. Her Correspondence works with the web of life, and how that's actually pretty literal. Her ST wants a bit more in the way of drawbacks, so she notes that a lot of her effects require pure nature, where everything is peaceful and pure and a nice web of life, rather than the Technocracy's corrupted nature that most people are familiar with. However, Gaia is resilient, so she can make pure nature again. Sphere levels are represented by not having a good enough natural ecosytem. For instance, she can't get Life 4 effects because her nature isn't pure enough, and if she just keeps trying to make it better she'll get access to Life 4 effects eventually. Effects that require a lot of successes are the same way. Paradox is the Technocracy's corrupt nature intruding in a massive backlash. Animals get tumors and turn rabid, Jen's character gets injured, trees die, ect.

Example 2: Ken looks at his sheet, and decides that he needs Life, Prime, and a third Sphere. He decides on Forces, for that extra oomph. He sees his character as doing Science through genetically altering and creating animals. Most of this is an involved process, with little in the way of quick and dirty effects, save those that have been prepared beforehand. He can't just do healing Science on anyone, only on creatures that have the proper regenerative genes that he can activate with a shot or command. He puts genetic modification, xenografts, and commanding his animals to his tools. His Life magic generally manifests itself in modification, particularly with animals. His Prime magic is a secondary sphere for making his modifications have exotic effects. His Forces primarily works with his Prime and Life to give his animals those effects, though he can cast in tandem with his critters. Sphere levels are represented by his knowledge, unlocking additional levels through study. Successes are represented by work and difficulty of acquiring exotic materials. Paradox is the unstable and experimental nature of his creations getting back at him, and generally manifests through his animals. They go nuts, die, get injured, reject their Enhancements, ect.

As an additional step, you can modify the spheres. Maybe some effects come in at higher or lower levels, maybe you get additional effects, whatever. Try to keep things balanced, but don't worry too much about it. Only do this with the ST's permission. Also, only do this if you can justify it in paradigm and casting style.

Example 1: Jen and her ST decide that since she's not able to do her effects on just any old thing, she can combine Mind and Life into a Gaian Nature sphere. It can only be used positively on people and animals that live in harmony with nature, and negatively on people that pervert it. She removes several effects, working with her ST to determine which.

Example 2: Ken decides that since his Prime only really does animals, it should be easier to modify animals than to create nonliving Devices. So he switches living and inanimate Devices on his Prime, with his ST's permission.

A note on the purple paradigm: Don't use it, and if you do, make it interesting. Characters should believe their paradigms, at least until they hit Arete 6. If you want to make a character who believes in Consensus reality, make their magic based on their worldview, like you would any other.

 

[Talkkno]

Demons! Like, Demons are cool, but Angels are kind of lame because of nWoD spirit powers (which mean smart spirits are automatically super swole and the other problems @EarthScorpion found). I wonder how to do Angels as a 'splat' insofar as they have 9 stats and relevant skills and superpowers so that they're more interesting to deal with than generic 'also you fight spirits who have generic and boring spirit rules.'

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That's really disappointing, since your hype post on SB years ago really got me hyped for it.