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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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Sydonai said:
They would probably see it as similar to putting a single poison pellet into the food while volunteering at a soup-kitchen.
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Are the Nobles supposed to be psychotically insane? Because equating "heavy use of blackmail" "recreational murder" is not really normal, emotionally speaking.

From what I know about the Loyalists of Thule, a good number would happily edge out of morally gray behavior if somebody could provide a better option. Hunter as a whole has a strong theme of the players fighting things above their weight class and having to struggle for every possible advantage - a Prince(ss) showing up and wailing on them for not being powerful enough to play fair just seems cruel and self-righteous on the part of the latter.
 
Princesses are basically hope and light personified. It hurts like a bitch to do morally unsound things and even to witness said morally unsound things. It's less that they're psycho and more of a survival instinct combined with a compulsion to do good. This may sound like an impossible life to maintain and that's the point. They're beings of light living in a world of darkness.
 
cmwatford said:
Princesses are basically hope and light personified. It hurts like a bitch to do morally unsound things and even to witness said morally unsound things. It's less that they're psycho and more of a survival instinct combined with a compulsion to do good. This may sound like an impossible life to maintain and that's the point. They're beings of light living in a world of darkness.
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It looks like the splat has altered a fair bit since the last time I dropped in on it, then. At that point, I'd almost argue the Princes(ses) are more danger than aid, because the world just bluntly does not fit into that kind of schema and their actions will end up causing indirect harm as they heedlessly plow through complicated situations without concern and tear peoples' lives apart out of their pathological need to erase all moral ambiguity from their surroundings. Are any of them supposed to survive more than a few years without either dying, killing themselves, going completely mad, becoming borderline hermits, succumbing to one of the Fallen Queens, and/or building a sanitized bubble of supernaturally-enforced niceness around their dwelling space to insulate themselves from the real world?

The impression I got was that Princes(ses) are idealists shaped by their encounters with the Queens who tether them to the lost glory of the past and can be called upon as bodhisattva/occult guides by those able to discern their wisdom. A Prince(ss) might cause immediate harm through their dedication to higher ideals, but they'd feel conflicted about it, work to minimize it, and avoid it where possible because they believe that they should be better than that, not because they've got Sailor Nothing-brand immorality detectors that make them freak out whenever they're exposed to anything south of the Superfriends. The line they cross when they join one of the Fallen Queens is letting their idealism give way to some other driving concern - the Stormwracked have let the need to punish evil overwhelm their belief in a higher good, Alhambrans believe that their city's survival is worth the compromising of their personal morality, and the Queen of Mirrors' chosen embrace narcissistic self-delusion as a way to escape the pressure of reconciling their ideals with reality (at the cost of becoming awful garbage-people). It's not about being an AD&D paladin (complete with falling from grace thanks to a Catch-22), it's about being someone who believes that people can be better, that the world can be better, even when everything around them seems to refute that.
 
All of that is still true. When I said it hurts I wasn't talking about health levels of damage. Was the shadows trait a thing last time you looked?
 
cmwatford said:
All of that is still true. When I said it hurts I wasn't talking about health levels of damage. Was the shadows trait a thing last time you looked?
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No, actually. Again, I checked in on Princess: the Hopeful back when it was still fairly new. I skimmed through it a bit last year when somebody tried to run a P:tH quest on this site, but clearly that left some significant data out.

My... borderline vitriol over the "morality" thing was the statement that a Prince(ss) would react with disgust and outrage toward the Loyalists of Thule - an organization that, for all its flaws, still has a significant element that are eager to believe in good (to quote The Dark Knight) and would be receptive to a charismatic idealist able to help give them the better options they've been denied all these years. To me, it seems reasonable that at least some Princes(ses) would respond to the Loyalists with sympathy and try to lead them out of the darkness, rather than condemn them for crimes committed in the name of survival.
 
GardenerBriareus said:
My... borderline vitriol over the "morality" thing was the statement that a Prince(ss) would react with disgust and outrage toward the Loyalists of Thule
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They wouldn't.
It would be more like they think the Loyalists are sabotaging themselves, doing more harm than good by potentially corrupting their bases of operation and future recruits.
"The end justifies the means" will never be acceptable for most Nobles, for what they believe are entirely valid reasons.
Exceptions for Tears who are almost personified by that line of thinking, Storms who just want to kill the bad guys( and anyone who either gets in their way or refuses to help) at any cost, and Mirrors who have self-oriented morality.

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And of course this is all a gross generalization.
Also, Vigil 2E.
 
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Sydonai said:
They wouldn't.
It would be more like they think the Loyalists are sabotaging themselves, doing more harm than good by potentially corrupting their bases of operation and future recruits.
"The end justifies the means" will never be acceptable for most Nobles, for what they believe are entirely valid reasons.
Exceptions for Tears who are almost personified by that line of thinking, Storms who just want to kill the bad guys( and anyone who either gets in their way or refuses to help) at any cost, and Mirrors who have self-oriented morality.
edit:

And of course this is all a gross generalization.
Also, Vigel 2E.
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See, when you used the "poison pill in the soup" analogy, I thought you meant that they'd respond to the Loyalists the same way they'd respond to somebody who was following the general ethos of Mads Mikkleston's Hannibal, poisoning a single stranger at random while volunteering at a soup kitchen out of some depraved sense of curiosity. Or because Xenu told them to. Your metaphor seemed to imply active malice, is what I'm saying.
 
GardenerBriareus said:
See, when you used the "poison pill in the soup" analogy, I thought you meant that they'd respond to the Loyalists the same way they'd respond to somebody who was following the general ethos of Mads Mikkleston's Hannibal, poisoning a single stranger at random while volunteering at a soup kitchen out of some depraved sense of curiosity. Or because Xenu told them to. Your metaphor seemed to imply active malice, is what I'm saying.
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They would see it as malicious, but not purposefully so.
At least not most of them.

I'd expect an almost condescending pity from the ones that see the big picture.
Stern disapproval that reminds you of the stereotypically parental "I'm not angry, just disappointed" shtick from most of the rest.
 
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Sydonai said:
They would see it as malicious, but not purposefully so.
At least not most of them.

I'd expect an almost condescending pity from the ones that see the big picture.
Stern disapproval that reminds you of the stereotypically parental "I'm not angry, just disappointed" shtick from most of the rest.
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Again, not making the Nobles sound like good people. "condescending pity" and assuming a patronizing paternalistic air around hardened mortals who've seen more than their fair share of shit (and survived it without the benefit of superpowers) is something I'd expect from a First Age Solar, not a Prince(ss) of the Lost Kingdom who carries the torch of hope in the darkness.
 
GardenerBriareus said:
Are the Nobles supposed to be psychotically insane? Because equating "heavy use of blackmail" "recreational murder" is not really normal, emotionally speaking.

From what I know about the Loyalists of Thule, a good number would happily edge out of morally gray behavior if somebody could provide a better option. Hunter as a whole has a strong theme of the players fighting things above their weight class and having to struggle for every possible advantage - a Prince(ss) showing up and wailing on them for not being powerful enough to play fair just seems cruel and self-righteous on the part of the latter.
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cmwatford said:
Princesses are basically hope and light personified. It hurts like a bitch to do morally unsound things and even to witness said morally unsound things. It's less that they're psycho and more of a survival instinct combined with a compulsion to do good. This may sound like an impossible life to maintain and that's the point. They're beings of light living in a world of darkness.
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Until recently I thought VALKYRIE's arresting first ask questions later approach to Princesses made no sense.
Now it fits together perfectly and rather understandably.
 
GardenerBriareus said:
a First Age Solar
a Prince(ss) of the Lost Kingdom who carries the torch of hope in the darkness
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Pretty damn similar to each other, actually. Minus the Great Curse.
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Onceborn (•••)
Available at character creation only.
Your character is one of the rare people who Blossomed, and became one of the Hopeful, without any memory of a past life as a Noble; her soul was never trapped in the Dreamlands, and the bitter memory of the Fall is not hers. This unshadowed innocence grants an unusual level of moral clarity. Your character's Belief begins at 8, not 7.
Drawback: Your character cannot draw on experiences from a past life.
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________________
They remember the world being a beautiful realm of Light, and then they see the World as it is now, and even if it's only on a subconscious level most of them....I'm not sure how to word what I'm trying to say here...
It's a lot like the whole "white man's burden" thing that the Technocracy has going on, except that the Nobles are physically incapable of compromising their morals without....well;

Granted, it usually isn't that bad, but it can still be bad.
 
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Sydonai said:
Would they be willing to pull Vlad the Impaler style shit, scorched/salted-earth tactics, disease warfare, blackmail, etc?
And have they already done so?
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In summery the only Hunter Conspiracy a Princess can hang out with is Vanguard Serial Crimes Unit?

Awakened Ones mediator would be good but as usual tri-face-nature of conspiracy works against.
Drug peddlers and gangsters are proprietors of human misery.

Probably more choices in the Compacts?
I'll delve much deeper in distant future.
 
Generalissimo said:
In summery the only Hunter Conspiracy a Princess can hang out with is Vanguard Serial Crimes Unit?

Awakened Ones mediator would be good but as usual tri-face-nature of conspiracy works against.
Drug peddlers and gangsters are proprietors of human misery.

Probably more choices in the Compacts?
I'll delve much deeper in distant future.
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From what I've seen I think they would get along pretty well with the Union, Network Zero, VASCU, the Maiden's Blood Sisterhood, some members of the Long Night, sometimes Les Mystères, sometimes Utopia Now, sometimes Ahl al-Jabal, occasionally the Barrett Commission, Mothers Against Cult Activity(read; Habibti Ma), the members of the Night Watch that focus less on gang activity and more on Hunting/Patrolling, and maybe the really traditional Ascending Ones if they come from the same culture.
 
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Sydonai said:
From what I've seen I think they get along pretty well with the Union, Network Zero, VASCU, and maybe the really traditional Ascending Ones if they come from the same culture.
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I'll add in Ahl al-Jabal for absolutely fanatical attitudes in avoiding collateral damage, Habibti Ma for being entirely about rescuing people, and Maiden's Blood Sisterhood for focus on defending young women?

Barrett Commission isn't necessary too immoral but outside princesses' usual interest?
(You could argue politics excellent vector to spread Hope)

Princess would probably be indifferent concerning Null Mysteriis.

Still in progress of pinning down Talbot Group?
 
Sydonai said:
From what I've seen I think they would get along pretty well with the Union, Network Zero, VASCU, sometimes Les Mystères, sometimes Utopia Now, sometimes Ahl al-Jabal, occasionally the Barrett Commission, Mothers Against Cult Activity(read; Habibti Ma), and maybe the really traditional Ascending Ones if they come from the same culture.
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And the nicer Long Night types.
 
Generalissimo said:
Barrett Commission isn't necessary too immoral but outside princesses' usual interest?
(You could argue politics excellent vector to spread Hope)
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Hehehe, a lot of the older Nobles are involved with local politics to a surprising degree.
They really hate governmental corruption, due to the possibility of it negatively effecting large numbers of people.
Generalissimo said:
Princess would probably be indifferent concerning Null Mysteriis.

Still in progress of pinning down Talbot Group?
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Diamonds would be annoyed with Null Mysteriis, to say the least.

I think they would dislike the Talbot Group, a lot.
But wouldn't be hostile to them unless a Noble, Sworn, or Beacon was targeted.
 
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Azusa-Miko (HTV Fallen Blossoms) would be fairly appropriate for a Princess?

notanautomaton said:
And the nicer Long Night types.
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Let's share a prayer with the Monster!
Bringing a monster back from damnation is kind of thing a Princess could get behind?

Sydonai said:
Hehehe, a lot of the older Nobles are involved with local politics to a surprising degree.
They really hate governmental corruption, due to the possibility of it negatively effecting large numbers of people.
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Wouldn't helping out stopping Vampires from subverting democracy be within such an interest?


Sydonai said:
Diamonds would be annoyed with Null Mysteriis, to say the least..
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Null Mysteriis are portrayed with maximum inconsistency for every Hunter book.
I would say they're attempting Knowledge and Reason but with incomplete toolbox.
 
Generalissimo said:
Let's share a prayer with the Monster!
Bringing a monster back from damnation is kind of thing a Princess could get behind?

Wouldn't helping out stopping Vampires from subverting democracy be within such an interest?

Null Mysteriis are portrayed with maximum inconsistency for every Hunter book.
I would say they're attempting Knowledge and Reason but with incomplete toolbox.
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I think there was something about someone theorizing that Nobles were actually Angels that had descended from Heaven to do His work, but that interference from the Fallen caused their memories to be damaged.
A Noble would be weirded out and disagree, but might be hard-pressed to provide any evidence against the theory.

Yep.

They insist that everything has a rational explanation, that's good!
But they refuse to admit that someone/s made some mistakes early on and now their model of how the world works is fundamentally flawed, that's bad!
 
It strikes me that nWoD really needs a splat of well-adjusted normal people who are capable of operating in morally complex environments without going batshit insane.

I'm sure that one of the WANP clans will be the Psychiatrists, who prevent other splats from going batshit insane by talking to them and perhaps prescribing esoteric alchemical potions such as Lithium and Zoloft.
 
hyzmarca said:
It strikes me that nWoD really needs a splat of well-adjusted normal people who are capable of operating in morally complex environments without going batshit insane.
I'm sure that one of the WANP clans will be the Psychiatrists, who prevent other splats from going batshit insane by talking to them and perhaps prescribing esoteric alchemical potions such as Lithium and Zoloft.
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IIRC that's technically what Atolls and Beacons are supposed to be.
 
hyzmarca said:
It strikes me that nWoD really needs a splat of well-adjusted normal people who are capable of operating in morally complex environments without going batshit insane.

I'm sure that one of the WANP clans will be the Psychiatrists, who prevent other splats from going batshit insane by talking to them and perhaps prescribing esoteric alchemical potions such as Lithium and Zoloft.
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No, it really doesn't, because that would kind of be fundamentally anathema to the entire point of the World of Darkness. Let's go back to the oWoD's "gothic-punk," which nWoD still has. The use of '-punk' is in the same sense as 'cyberpunk's' fundamentally dehumanizing technology. So, the supernatural in the WoD is fundamentally dehumanizing. You don't get to have supernatural powers and be well-adjusted. You might be moral, you might be sane, you might even be heroic. But you absolutely should not be 'well-adjusted.'

Even in nWoD, the supernatural tends to be fundamentally dehumanizing. The games all expect-and intend-you to fall to Morality-stat 4-5 or so, when average humans manage around a 7. The games that don't, like Hunter or Werewolf or Demon, manage this by either letting you fundamentally fuck with core tenets of your morality ("killing is bad, except for vampires/werewolves/changelings/minorities, because they brought it onto themselves"-and yes, the last one is there on purpose. You can see how the Hunter dehumanizes the other and how that's the same attitude which creates guys like Dylan Roof. In fact, notice that a lot of Hunter groups implicitly or explicitly wear the colors of the lynch mob or the death squad), or by giving you an alien morality which explicitly allows you to hurt people without consequence, because a Demon is a rogue Agent in the Matrix and humans are mere cogs in the machine while a Werewolf is a werewolf.
 
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