Honestly trying to relate real history to oMage feels like an exercise of futility to me.
It totally fails because you have to consider all progressive/techie/industrialiced groups as basically the same organization, which doesn't make any sense.
A setting where the whole S XIX-XX history of class conflict is ultimately an in-joke and both the hyper-rich industrialists and the socialist demagoges are different sides of the same organization fails in my books.
Honestly trying to relate real history to oMage feels like an exercise of futility to me.
It totally fails because you have to consider all progressive/techie/industrialiced groups as basically the same organization, which doesn't make any sense.
A setting where the whole S XIX-XX history of class conflict is ultimately a in-joke and both the hyper-rich industrialists and the socialist demagoges are different sides of the same organization fails in my books.
The New World Order doesn't control every progressive social movement. Most of them are just useful to it. Yes, Black Lives Matter are playing into the NWO's hands, but no, the actual Technocrats aren't involved.
The NWO are more into things like welfare and social security, which make the masses dependent on the government and thus more easily controlled, as well as the United Nations and other peace organizations, to make fearless rebels against the NWO's progressive totalitarian regime, such as Kim Jong-un, seem like tyrants.
A setting where the whole S XIX-XX history of class conflict is ultimately a in-joke and both the hyper-rich industrialists and the socialist demagoges are different sides of the same organization fails in my books.
Yes. Like, fundamentally, as written oMage has the problem that it's a product of early 90s "the West has won, the Soviet Union has fallen, it's reliant on counter-cultural movements to stand up to the forces of the Man".
This basically doesn't work in the 2010s, where the cultural-cultural hackers sold out and became Google, the counter-cultural rebel scientists spent the last two decades killing African children by getting them to reject antiretrovirals and causing disease by spreading anti-vaccination stuff, and China has gone from "mystic place of the East" to "woh, guys, you guys are basically just going full cyberpunk, aren't you?".
Oh, and we're also not goths so we can't take the Hollow Ones seriously.
It's a bit harder to do this in M20 because nuclear weapons deal "Seriously?" damage inside their blast radius. One yard outside their blast radius they deal Seriously?-1 damage, two yards outside their blast radius they deal Seriously?-2 damage...
Well yes, but 'seriously' is not a number, therefore the old Ascension figures still clearly apply because they can easily be described as 'seriously?'
where someone spent five pages arguing that Tremere could create new rituals as they wanted and could totally fight and beat the entire Technocracy alone when they wanted to!
Well, they can. Create rituals, I mean, not beat the entire Technocracy, that's dumb. It takes, like, months, so a sufficiently well-prepared Tremere can potentially have whichever particular ritual they need subject to ST approval and their own dots in Thaumaturgy (so shitty Tremere only get utilitarian-but-not-super-gamebreaking Rituals, in theory).
It really took them five pages to establish "the Tremere can invent rituals"?
It's a bit harder to do this in M20 because nuclear weapons deal "Seriously?" damage inside their blast radius. One yard outside their blast radius they deal Seriously?-1 damage, two yards outside their blast radius they deal Seriously?-2 damage...
But the suffragettes were super racist though. Not to mention high class women held the power and property of the household back then. If you were middle or lower class shit was all fucked though.
On second thought that would be a power mad Technocrat thing to do now wouldnt it?
For 'super racist' rather than just, on average 'regular racist because they're people of their time, what the hell do you expect? That just because they're ahead of the curve in one area they're automatically ahead of it in all areas?'
Dust Bowl shenanigans for Prometheans take up a chapter in Dark Eras. There's even a lineage, the Hollow, that was born in the Dust Bowl and stop being able to make new Hollow when the rains come. The ones who haven't become human by that point are basically fucked, even by Promethean standards.
Dust Bowl shenanigans for Prometheans take up a chapter in Dark Eras. There's even a lineage, the Hollow, that was born in the Dust Bowl and stop being able to make new Hollow when the rains come. The ones who haven't become human by that point are basically fucked, even by Promethean standards.
For 'super racist' rather than just, on average 'regular racist because they're people of their time, what the hell do you expect? That just because they're ahead of the curve in one area they're automatically ahead of it in all areas?'
Ah, yes, these links about all suffragettes everywhere and how evil they were. I mean, god, your own links don't back up your broad brush.
First article: It talks about the mixed record of British suffragettes and then says the stunning, surprising, no doubt horrifying truth: White women in the South were racist and didn't stop being racist when they started pursuing women's rights.
Put simply, you're holding them to a standard of purity that is fair in one sense, but absurd in another.
That members of one minority group don't automatically have enlightened POVs on every other minority isn't a new phenomenon.
I mean, stepping outside of the 1920s, many lesbian bars were segregated all through the late 30s, 40s, and into the 50s.
So yeah, if you're saying that an examination of the period has to acknowledge that there were dark spots and that many of the suffragettes, including some of their most important leadership, were exactly as racist as their society and attempted to justify their white supremacy within the lens of their feminism...sure. Of course, I already actually knew about 2/3rds of what you were linking.
I'm just not sure where 'super racist' comes from. Like, those quotes are shit-heel stuff, but quite evidently not outside the mainstream, so at most it's a reminder that the whole time period is super-racist and that noting exceptions is more important than casting blame.
But yes, from the very start, Women's suffrage was no more free of the racism of society than women themselves (who were, you know, half the population). So I guess we're quibbling over semantics and, more than that, the way to properly interpret history.
From a story perspective, there's still plenty of room to have a suffragette character who doesn't conform to society's norms in other ways (IE: Not as racist as society, or etc, etc), or, since suffrage was achieved before the 1920s, a women's right activist trying to find the next fight.
There's a lot of interest in the 1920s, and I might have to dig at it, actually.
Ah, yes, these links about all suffragettes everywhere and how evil they were. I mean, god, your own links don't back up your broad brush.
First article: It talks about the mixed record of British suffragettes and then says the stunning, surprising, no doubt horrifying truth: White women in the South were racist and didn't stop being racist when they started pursuing women's rights.
Put simply, you're holding them to a standard of purity that is fair in one sense, but absurd in another.
That members of one minority group don't automatically have enlightened POVs on every other minority isn't a new phenomenon.
I mean, stepping outside of the 1920s, many lesbian bars were segregated all through the late 30s, 40s, and into the 50s.
So yeah, if you're saying that an examination of the period has to acknowledge that there were dark spots and that many of the suffragettes, including some of their most important leadership, were exactly as racist as their society and attempted to justify their white supremacy within the lens of their feminism...sure. Of course, I already actually knew about 2/3rds of what you were linking.
I'm just not sure where 'super racist' comes from. Like, those quotes are shit-heel stuff, but quite evidently not outside the mainstream, so at most it's a reminder that the whole time period is super-racist and that noting exceptions is more important than casting blame.
But yes, from the very start, Women's suffrage was no more free of the racism of society than women themselves (who were, you know, half the population). So I guess we're quibbling over semantics and, more than that, the way to properly interpret history.
From a story perspective, there's still plenty of room to have a suffragette character who doesn't conform to society's norms in other ways (IE: Not as racist as society, or etc, etc), or, since suffrage was achieved before the 1920s, a women's right activist trying to find the next fight.
There's a lot of interest in the 1920s, and I might have to dig at it, actually.
So yeah, if you're saying that an examination of the period has to acknowledge that there were dark spots and that many of the suffragettes, including some of their most important leadership, were exactly as racist as their society and attempted to justify their white supremacy within the lens of their feminism...sure. Of course, I already actually knew about 2/3rds of what you were linking..
It really doesn't matter that one of the most prominent Feminists is actually a 6000-year-old proto-vampire who wants to end the world for petty revenge, the cause is still good.
