White Wolf's World of Darkness

[ChineseDrone]

The West isn't genocidal, but the technocracy is still actively hunting mages and the voids are trying to destroy all spiritual phenomena.

Also technocrats are pretty long lived you know?

Click to shrink...

Per revised, the Technocracy doesn't actively hunt down and kill mages just for existing anymore. As for spiritual phenomena, the extent to which they're even "alive" and thus valid victims of genocide is very questionable--given that they're emanations of human thought in the first place, the whole "The Technocracy is killing spirits through disbelief" thing at best runs into the Violinist conundrum, and far with far more likelihood isn't actually killing spirits but just causing them to change form?

And yes, but given that the immortal masters of the Technocracy live in a solipsist god-like existence where they understand that truth does not exist, it kind of beggars belief that they'd still be racist? "I now know that reality is a lie... but still, black people are dumb, that's without question" is... kind of absurd?

If we're going to attribute not just the sins of the current West, but the West's entire history, to the current Technocracy, then the same should be done to the Traditions and every other organization in existence. If we do that we're going to end up with "everyone's a horribly evil bastard"

 

[linkhyrule5]

.... Totally, shamelessly, and intentionally off-topic from the current rehash, it strikes me that "Prime 5: Countermagic Consensus" is, in fact, a reasonable explanation for Primium's cost. Doesn't even take too much editing. It's already an absurdly tough, nonconducting, far-too-light-for-its-size noncorroding metal - so it resists Forces 3 "I cast bullet/lightning bolt/gravity", Entropy 3 or Time 3 "Things rust and age," and Matter "bend iron" "Rotes" already.


Mm. My inner physicist is not particularly happy with femptotech antigrav or a metal that somehow tidally locks itself in space (Corr antimagic), say, but it's perhaps a start.

 

[EarthScorpion]

.... Totally, shamelessly, and intentionally off-topic from the current rehash, it strikes me that "Prime 5: Countermagic Consensus" is, in fact, a reasonable explanation for Primium's cost.

Click to shrink...

That's really not a good idea. Prime can't countermagic Consensual things at PC-OK levels of the sphere, or else it becomes an even more powerful omnisphere than Entropy in some interpretations.

 

[notanautomaton]

Here's my write-up for the Traditions I use in my game. Thought you might find it interesting. If I get some interest I'll expand on each entry in future posts.

Rebuild of the Traditions

The Traditions were formed in the early Renaissance in response to the rising power of the Order of Reason. The Houses of the Order of Hermes were the primary impetus behind it, and were soon joined by the Choir Celeste and the Solificati. These three agreed to seek out other mystics across the world in order to unify against the Technocracy. They also decided that each major tradition would have a seat, based on the Hermetic Sphere system. The Hermetics took Forces, the Choir Celeste Prime, and the Solificati Matter.

However, their further expansion hit a snag in that few traditions were both as unified or as willing to join as them. While the European pagans were willing to join, they were not unified, resulting in them being lumped together as Verenbrae under the powerful Nightshade. Likewise, most non-europeans were lumped together as Dreamspeakers, which caused many of the more proud orders to leave in disgust.

This grouping was able to persist through the political acumen of ancient mages, which resulted in the Nine Seats crumbling due to the Avatar Storm and the Cessation of the Pogrom. No more were Christian and Jewish mages content to serve in the universalist order of the Celestial Choir. No more were pagans and shamans and death-cultists content to be lumped together.

This resulted in the Nine Seats being dissolved and replaced with a council. On the Council each tradition has a spokesperson with a number of votes proportional to the power of their tradition.

The Order of Hermes

The Order of Hermes is currently the most powerful of the Traditions due to their united 'foreign policy.' While the houses disagree internally, they typically attempt to put up a divided front. This is because unlike other Traditions, they refused to allow other factions to join them without a long vetting process and compatibility with their magic.

Additionally, they are among the best of the non-technologist factions at teaching their magic to individuals that aren't already Awakened.

They are divided into houses, each of which focuses on a different aspect of magic, giving them diverse options within their Tradition

The Celestial Choir

The Celestial Choir originated as a heretical sect of Christianity, which claimed to speak for all religious mages. Due to having a number of powerful Masters they were able to get away with this for hundreds of years. While Jewish, Muslim, and Christian mages were allowed under the aegis of the Choir, they were effectively second-class citizens.

However, after the turn of the millennium, many of these groups declared their independence, largely on existing religious lines. The remaining Choir is much reduced, though it still has a great amount of power. It often feuds with other monotheistic Traditions over recruits.

The Verbena

The Verbena are divided into three main groups. The Old Guard are old style witches. Their magic is often bloody and rather dark. They have lost a great deal of their political power recently due to loosing their old Masters. The New Agers are the opposite of them, and typically use herbal remedies, crystals, and homeopathy in order to perform magic. They tend to hate each other.

The third group is actually several groups; the European Pagans. Each subgroup worships a different pantheon of gods, or the same pantheon in a different way. They have split from the mainstream Verbena due to not really fitting in with the less religious group.

The Euthanos

The Euthanos death cults are descended from a number of old orders, including Celtic worshipers of the Morrigan, Greek Hades worshipers, African mages that put spirits to rest, Islamic assassins, and, primarily, an Indian cult of assassins. However, each group believes that some people need to die, and they found common cause with that.

They have not splintered much, though a group of cybernetic ninja have decided to go their own way, and they groups have drifted apart slightly.

The Dreamspeakers

The Dreamspeakers used to encompass almost all non-European mages, and have accordingly splintered massively. While many of the tribal shamans have remained for political reasons, most of the groups have choosen to depart. The Schismed groups include Aztecs, Incans, Shinto exorcists and shrine tenders, and the False Face Society.

The Akashic Brotherhood

While the mainstream Akashic Brotherhood is mostly unchanged, they have lost some of their affiliated groups. For instance, an order of Samurai and an order of sumo wrestlers have left the Brotherhood.

In the more mainstream group, they are divided between those that favor internal enlightenment and those that favor external martial arts, though this is mainly an internal issue and has not yet resulted in a full schism.

The Cult of Ecstasy

The Cult divided into three groups: The Seers of Chronus, who maintain their original rituals involving the Greek Gods, the Cult of Ecstacy, which seeks enlightenment through drugs and sex, and the Seekers of Ecstacy, who are more interested in the material world.

The Sons of Ether

The Sons are divided into two main groups; the mechanics and the scientists. The scienists care deeply about their theories, while the mechincs don't really care what they use so long as it works. They are still quite unified, giving them a great deal of political power..

The Virtual Adepts

While the Virtual Adepts are nominally unified, each individual is so egotistical that you wouldn't think that they are. Getting them to actually work together is like herding cats, and is only that easy if you're a notable figure, like Dante.

 

[BiopunkOtrera]

Per revised, the Technocracy doesn't actively hunt down and kill mages just for existing anymore.

Click to shrink...

Just for a bunch of other reasons.

As for spiritual phenomena, the extent to which they're even "alive" and thus valid victims of genocide is very questionable--given that they're emanations of human thought in the first place, the whole "The Technocracy is killing spirits through disbelief" thing at best runs into the Violinist conundrum, and far with far more likelihood isn't actually killing spirits but just causing them to change form?

And yes, but given that the immortal masters of the Technocracy live in a solipsist god-like existence where they understand that truth does not exist, it kind of beggars belief that they'd still be racist? "I now know that reality is a lie... but still, black people are dumb, that's without question" is... kind of absurd?

If we're going to attribute not just the sins of the current West, but the West's entire history, to the current Technocracy, then the same should be done to the Traditions and every other organization in existence. If we do that we're going to end up with "everyone's a horribly evil bastard"

Click to shrink...

It's pretty hard to escape the fact that the technocracy was set up as an adjunct to the British empire, and is still largely run by the same people who did that. It's not like this is some radically different organization, or even that the factions within it have lost power since the days of imperialism. They're still the same organization, and using the same people.

 

[notanautomaton]

I'm not quite sure how you can get the OoH as genocidal imperialists actually. The Celestial Chorus are genocidal imperialists. . . but often against one another, and far less so than the technocracy is. When Christianity became a force of imperialism, the order of reason was already using it.

Click to shrink...

Because it's canon. The OoH and CC were genocidal teamkilling fucktards during the Age of Exploration. They profited hugely off the slave trade, genocided Native Americans, ect.

Just for a bunch of other reasons.

Click to shrink...

Ah yes, like 'hacking govenment databases' or 'mind controlling women to sleep with them' or 'summoning up something I can't put down.' Sometimes mages need killing.

It's pretty hard to escape the fact that the technocracy was set up as an adjunct to the British empire, and is still largely run by the same people who did that. It's not like this is some radically different organization, or even that the factions within it have lost power since the days of imperialism. They're still the same organization, and using the same people.

Click to shrink...

Those same people all died during the Avatar Storm. I mean, the focal character for Syndicate Revised is a black woman from Africa.

 

[vicky_molokh]

This thread doesn't need to turn into a gun control debate. But no one said that the Technocracy wasn't dictatorial and sinister. They're the fucking black helicopter people.

That being said, the Order of Reason almost certainly supported widespread gun ownership in the 17th and 18th centuries and Technocracy almost certainly support strong gun controls now.

Click to shrink...

Umm, you gave examples that were extremely reminiscent of mass shootings, mentioned that 'at least now humans need to own a gun to do something like that', said the typical argument of 'they will kill each other/themselves', and now you tell me that this thread doesn't need to turn into a gun control debate?

Vaccines cause Autism is more a 'modern medicine is evil' paradigm direction. It's heavily tied into all-natural woo and presupposes that the medical establishment is actively and knowingly trying to poison children. It's tied heavily into the 'corporations are evil' meme and directly relies on it. The ultimate position of the anti-vaxxers it isn't just that vaccines may have side effects. It's that vaccines have dangerous side effects, and they don't actually do anything useful, and the government, the medical establishment, and big pharma all know this, and they're intentionally injecting poison into your children because they're greedy.


This is, in fact, extremely harmful to the technocracy, not the least because the meme that corporations and governments are evil actually makes the Technocracy, which is both a corporation and a shadow government, more evil. It's also what allows corporations like Pentex to exist without their middle management immediately revolting. The idea that merely existing in a corporate structure is inheriently corrupting is really fucking bad for everyone, really. It's like a subtle planet-scale mind effect. Because, unfortunately, human (and inhuman) psychology and sociology are a part of the Consensus as much as anything else.


The adage that power corrupts is, perhaps, the worst and most dangerous thing in the Consensus. Since it directly leads to self-reinforcing corruption death spirals and ensures that benevolent rulers are extremely unlikely, if not outright impossible.

Click to shrink...

Maybe a few of the more really-out-there fans of the movement really do think that it is some sort of deliberate premeditated poisoning plot; in general, though, people tend to see bad stuff happening as more of an unintended side effect of getting some good stuff - I keep encountering this meme quite often. "Oh, you have computers, but now you're dumber and can't calculate all that in your head!", "Oh, you have a prosthetic hand to replace the one you lost in the accident, but now you're less human for it!", "Oh, you got vaccinated, but now part of your immune system is based on the consequences of a technological treatment!" (this one is of course even less nasty as the Actually Harmful Side Effect camp), "Oh, you learned that the Sun is a big fusion ball, so now you can't enjoy it poetically as before!". All these statements share one trait: they're all anti-transcendence by invoking a variation of TANSTAAFL. Even the 'power corrupts' is a variation of 'getting good stuff will give you bad stuff!'.

Of course, now that you bring up the idea that consensus opinions about people affect the people, I have to wonder about your stance regarding the effect of consensus opinions about all sorts of minorities or second-class citizens on said minorities and second-classes.

 

[ChineseDrone]

Just for a bunch of other reasons.

Click to shrink...

Not really? Canonically after revised the Technocracy generally doesn't go after people unless they're being notably disruptive.

It's pretty hard to escape the fact that the technocracy was set up as an adjunct to the British empire, and is still largely run by the same people who did that. It's not like this is some radically different organization, or even that the factions within it have lost power since the days of imperialism. They're still the same organization, and using the same people.

Click to shrink...

Again, those same people a.) are no longer around thanks to the Avatar Storm and b.) were the E6+ masters of the Technocracy who understood things like "reality is a lie". It's kind of hard to believe that those people were genuinely racist given that they knew that, you know, reality is a lie, but then just went "but this very particular bit definitely isn't"?

Further, again, if we're going to play this game I can say the exact same thing about the leadership of all the Traditions and any other organization that ever existed in Mage.

 

[Broken25]

It's kind of hard to believe that those people were genuinely racist given that they knew that, you know, reality is a lie, but then just went "but this very particular bit definitely isn't"?

Click to shrink...

They still promoted a racist paradigm, even if they didn't believed in it, since it was convenient for their main plans.

Humm. That's even more evil than normal racism.

 

[BiopunkOtrera]

Because it's canon. The OoH and CC were genocidal teamkilling fucktards during the Age of Exploration. They profited hugely off the slave trade, genocided Native Americans, ect.

Click to shrink...

That doesn't IMHO make a huge amount of sense, as the OOH doesn't have much institutional reason why they'd be doing that.

I'm sure individual hermetics profited of course, and one could make the case that the CC was at that point actually within what would become the technocracy.

Edit: To be honest, I wonder how much the traditions should even have existed at that point. I actually think that the idea that the traditions are basically voting blocks within a big UN style council is a pretty good take on them.

Ah yes, like 'hacking govenment databases' or 'mind controlling women to sleep with them' or 'summoning up something I can't put down.' Sometimes mages need killing.

Click to shrink...

Sure. Or you know, because they prevented our unethical experiments or shady business deal.

To be honest I never really liked "We aren't killing mages just because" either very much either. The technocracy are, as I pointed out earlier, near perfect nage antagonists. Of course White Wolf being White Wolf, they ran as fast as they could away from a great thing they had going in service of trying to make Mage, Vampire, Werewolf etc. fit within exactly the same continuity, rather than just being things you could use together if you wanted because they each had dramatically different themes.

Those same people all died during the Avatar Storm. I mean, the focal character for Syndicate Revised is a black woman from Africa.

Click to shrink...

"up until a few years ago we were genocidal imperialists, but we're fine now, honest."

Not really? Canonically after revised the Technocracy generally doesn't go after people unless they're being notably disruptive.

Click to shrink...

I don't particularly rate revised in all honesty. It killed most of the more interesting things about mage.

In particularly, I don't like revised because in revised nobody has any concrete objectives at all except to maybe try to save the world or get rich, both of which are extremely tiresome.

Again, those same people a.) are no longer around thanks to the Avatar Storm and b.) were the E6+ masters of the Technocracy who understood things like "reality is a lie". It's kind of hard to believe that those people were genuinely racist given that they knew that, you know, reality is a lie, but then just went "but this very particular bit definitely isn't"?

Further, again, if we're going to play this game I can say the exact same thing about the leadership of all the Traditions and any other organization that ever existed in Mage.

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure you can still be over 100 years old (IE still be an imperialist) without being arete 6. Even if that is the case, this is kind of a huge white wash. It's suggesting that the whole nature of the organization has changed since the avatar storm, which is pretty silly.

The technocracy may not be racist (though honestly I'd bet there's a lot of scientific racism going on there) but it is responsible for a lot of racism. Imperialism was a tragedy, a holocaust, and I think having the bad guys in your setting be in effect, the force of that imperialism who you get to fight is pretty great overall.

 

[notanautomaton]

That doesn't IMHO make a huge amount of sense, as the OOH doesn't have much institutional reason why they'd be doing that.

I'm sure individual hermetics profited of course, and one could make the case that the CC was at that point actually within what would become the technocracy.

Click to shrink...

For money. Massive amounts of money. And the CC were in the Traditions at that point, not the Technocracy.

(though honestly I'd bet there's a lot of scientific racism going on there)

Click to shrink...

Why? Scientific racism is dead. Why would the group that controls science be out of step with science on this issue aside from making them eviler?

 

[BiopunkOtrera]

For money. Massive amounts of money.

Click to shrink...

What need has a wizard for silver when it can create it from mid air.

Why? Scientific racism is dead. Why would the group that controls science be out of step with science on this issue aside from making them eviler?

Click to shrink...

"We were just using scientific racism as a way to destroy local cultures" is not a whole lot better.

There's still be racism because like, there's still all the racial shit around science from our society. And indeed, sexual shit.

Edit: One could wonder actually, if there wasn't some identity politics going on with the virtual adepts split. At the time coding was women's work, and was generally poorly regarded by other fields of science and engineering.

I bet there's a lot of interesting politics within the virtual adepts between the older ones and the silicon valley brogrammer crowd.

 

[ChineseDrone]

"up until a few years ago we were genocidal imperialists, but we're fine now, honest."

Click to shrink...

That's... not really what I'm saying? Obviously there would have been a gradual transition, especially since even before the Avatar Storm Control was probably shifting people away from racism and the like as soon as it stopped being something that could be justified by mainstream science in the mid-1900s. Like I said, it's not like Control was really at all vested in the racism thing.

I don't particularly rate revised in all honesty. It killed most of the more interesting things about mage.

In particularly, I don't like revised because in revised nobody has any concrete objectives at all except to maybe try to save the world or get rich, both of which are extremely tiresome.

Click to shrink...

I can't speak to the Revised Trad books, I don't have them, but I definitely don't get this impression from the Revised Convention books. Granted, teh core is kind of stupid, but it's kind of dumb to judge the entire line based on its core books

I'm pretty sure you can still be over 100 years old (IE still be an imperialist) without being arete 6. Even if that is the case, this is kind of a huge white wash. It's suggesting that the whole nature of the organization has changed since the avatar storm, which is pretty silly.

The technocracy may not be racist (though honestly I'd bet there's a lot of scientific racism going on there) but it is responsible for a lot of racism. Imperialism was a tragedy, a holocaust, and I think having the bad guys in your setting be in effect, the force of that imperialism who you get to fight is pretty great overall.

Click to shrink...

First of all, you realize that it's possible to stop being racist, right? Like, people in real life have repudiated racist views they held earlier in life

You also do remember that, in the Technocracy, those HR sessions where they teach people things like "don't be racist" actually work, right? Given that they're Mind effects?

When racism was pushed out of mainstream science, it was also pushed out of the Technocracy because anything else doesn't really make sense. To be honest, I'd reject the idea that the Technocracy was responsible for imperialism in its entirety given that that sort of thing is basically just human nature, but I'll freely admit that it supported and profited upon it in the past. (The idea that the Technocracy is responsible for racism, as opposed to just human beings being shitty, is kind of laughable though. The Technocracy certainly was affected by racism, but responsible for it? Really?) I will also, however, admit that many of the Traditions did the same thing, because historically speaking that would also have happened. I will also say that, in the modern day, the Technocracy has repudiated imperialism (at least on a shallow level) and is to some extent trying to right the wrongs it caused in the past in the same sense that the modern day West tries to provide things like foreign aid.

See, this is where your problem comes in. I'm trying to craft a world where all sides have realistic motivations and reflect real-life history and ideological trends--and in real life there aren't really clear-cut good guys and bad guys. I think the idea of having any straight villain in oMage (other than arguably the Nephandi) is kind of absurd given that post-modernism was the whole point of the game.

There's still be racism because like, there's still all the racial shit around science from our society. And indeed, sexual shit.

Click to shrink...

Shit which tends to be condemned by academia, and which generally shows up in much more subtle, institutional ways in most of Western society. Which is, you know, the Technocracy.

 

[notthepenguins]

What need has a wizard for silver when it can create it from mid air.

Click to shrink...

Well not massively devaluing the currency, for one...

 

[hyzmarca]

Maybe a few of the more really-out-there fans of the movement really do think that it is some sort of deliberate premeditated poisoning plot; in general, though, people tend to see bad stuff happening as more of an unintended side effect of getting some good stuff -

Click to shrink...

Most of the anti-vaxxer I've encountered are of the opinion that vaccines are an unadulterated evil, and that even if they actually work, those diseases are good for you.

No seriously, I've seen a lot of people argue that measles is good for you.

 

[BiopunkOtrera]

That's... not really what I'm saying? Obviously there would have been a gradual transition, especially since even before the Avatar Storm Control was probably shifting people away from racism and the like as soon as it stopped being something that could be justified by mainstream science in the mid-1900s. Like I said, it's not like Control was really at all vested in the racism thing.

Click to shrink...

In what way has there though? Up until the avatar storm, it was being run by the same guys who proceeded over all the genocide and stuff. With or without scientific racism, the technocracy is the same organization with basically the same leadership that was prepared to slaughter entire populations in their quest to make the world act the way they wanted it to act.

I can't speak to the Revised Trad books, I don't have them, but I definitely don't get this impression from the Revised Convention books. Granted, teh core is kind of stupid, but it's kind of dumb to judge the entire line based on its core books

Click to shrink...

The revised convention books are basically people desperately searching for some angle that isn't Traditions vs. Technocracy, which would be the most interesting angle. So we have inter convention conflict, we have Threat Null etc. Threat Null is kind of interesting but it's still a lot less interesting than the battle for the soul of humanity. It's just basic space monsters. You can't feel sympathy for threat null. It's like making the Nephandi the main villains.

It's the same problem with New Mage. They had the perfect badguy (the technocracy) and then rather than improve it as they did from first to second edition mage (man, the first edition technocracy was lulzy as fuck) they ran away from it as much as they could, because White Wolf are kind of stupid like that.

First of all, you realize that it's possible to stop being racist, right? Like, people in real life have repudiated racist views they held earlier in life

You also do remember that, in the Technocracy, those HR sessions where they teach people things like "don't be racist" actually work, right? Given that they're Mind effects?

When racism was pushed out of mainstream science, it was also pushed out of the Technocracy because anything else doesn't really make sense. To be honest, I'd reject the idea that the Technocracy was responsible for imperialism in its entirety given that that sort of thing is basically just human nature, but I'll freely admit that it supported and profited upon it in the past. (The idea that the Technocracy is responsible for racism, as opposed to just human beings being shitty, is kind of laughable though. The Technocracy certainly was affected by racism, but responsible for it? Really?) I will also, however, admit that many of the Traditions did the same thing, because historically speaking that would also have happened. I will also say that, in the modern day, the Technocracy has repudiated imperialism (at least on a shallow level) and is to some extent trying to right the wrongs it caused in the past in the same sense that the modern day West tries to provide things like foreign aid.

See, this is where your problem comes in. I'm trying to craft a world where all sides have realistic motivations and reflect real-life history and ideological trends--and in real life there aren't really clear-cut good guys and bad guys. I think the idea of having any straight villain in oMage (other than arguably the Nephandi) is kind of absurd given that post-modernism was the whole point of the game.

Click to shrink...

I don't have a problem with the technocracy having a realistic motivation. Imperialism is a realistic motivation in that it actually happened.

Like, I'm sure there's a lot of technocrats who talk about imperialism as something they used to do that they're now kind of ashamed of and needs must and all that shit, but that's an excuse you know? The fact is they're an organization built on corpses. They may not be racist now (not more than modern society is racist) but that doesn't suddenly wash away all sins or make them the good guys.

Well not massively devaluing the currency, for one...

Click to shrink...

South American silver already did that.

 

[ChineseDrone]

In what way has there though? Up until the avatar storm, it was being run by the same guys who proceeded over all the genocide and stuff. With or without scientific racism, the technocracy is the same organization with basically the same leadership that was prepared to slaughter entire populations in their quest to make the world act the way they wanted it to act.

Click to shrink...

Again, given that those people were E6+ it kind of beggars belief that they were actually racist and responsible for perpetrating active genocide because... what would be the point of doing that? It's not like every colonial mission ever launched had its Resident Technocrat who told the rest to EXTERMINATE THE SAVAGES!

It seems much more likely that the Technocracy supported the general idea of white man's burden imperialism, and the massacres that happened as a result were conducted by sleepers, maybe by low-level local Technocrats, because people are shitty. Because, again, what motive would Control have actively ordering random groups of people killed when there are much easier ways of getting rid of the RDs buried within them? This has the added benefit of fitting much closer to the way imperialism moved from intellectual circles to actual practice than some idea that the Union was just ordering groups killed left and right. By and large, the Technocracy's sins here would be paternalistic imperialism combined with apathy about people's lives rather than directly committing genocide.

The revised convention books are basically people desperately searching for some angle that isn't Traditions vs. Technocracy, which would be the most interesting angle. So we have inter convention conflict, we have Threat Null etc. Threat Null is kind of interesting but it's still a lot less interesting than the battle for the soul of humanity. It's just basic space monsters. You can't feel sympathy for threat null. It's like making the Nephandi the main villains.

It's the same problem with New Mage. They had the perfect badguy (the technocracy) and then rather than improve it as they did from first to second edition mage (man, the first edition technocracy was lulzy as fuck) they ran away from it as much as they could, because White Wolf are kind of stupid like that.

Click to shrink...

The Threat Null is something that exists within the specific context of Technocracy games, and it's a very interesting antagonist for Technocratic characters given that it's literally their sins made manifest. I don't think it was ever painted as something that the entire gameline should revolve around. For that matter, I don't think Revised insisted that the war for reality was over, merely that it was no longer an open conflict, and to me the idea of mages having a cold war trying to influence human thought instead of straight-up shooting each other in every circumstance is actually a lot more interesting?

And yes, in Revised, different groups have multiple conflicts going on at once. Kind of like real life, right?

I don't have a problem with the technocracy having a realistic motivation. Imperialism is a realistic motivation in that it actually happened.

Like, I'm sure there's a lot of technocrats who talk about imperialism as something they used to do that they're now kind of ashamed of and needs must and all that shit, but that's an excuse you know? The fact is they're an organization built on corpses. They may not be racist now (not more than modern society is racist) but that doesn't suddenly wash away all sins or make them the good guys.

Click to shrink...

By this logic every government that has ever existed is sinful and needs to be destroyed. Please, name me one country that wasn't built in corpses. (Hint: You won't find one)

 

[BiopunkOtrera]

By this logic every government that has ever existed is sinful and needs to be destroyed. Please, name me one country that wasn't built in corpses. (Hint: You won't find one)

Click to shrink...

Mostly however, the people who were in charge when the corpses were made are not still alive or in charge. Avatar storm or not, there's probably some technocrats from the 1800s around.

I think you might be mistaking me here though. I'm not saying all technocrats are evil. I'm saying that in general the technocracy works better as antagonists. As avatars of the twisted system that you, as young mages, need to tear down, and ones that manifest the sins of society. From that point of view, the guys at the top being a bunch of old imperialists is actually pretty cool.

I don't really care for revised because it turns down what I regard as the central conflict of the game, the ascension war of tradition vs. technocracy. That's the, bar none, most interesting thing in mage. I kind of wish we could talk about that rather than nitpicking how much responsibility the technocracy has for this or that imperial massacre.

 

[notanautomaton]

By this logic every government that has ever existed is sinful and needs to be destroyed. Please, name me one country that wasn't built in corpses. (Hint: You won't find one)

Click to shrink...

SEALAND FTW.

 

[Mrl567]

I been lurking this thread and just a question, what is the best way to actually get into Mage line World of Darkness games?

Click to shrink...

I know im repeating myself, but my question has been hidden under another Technocracy vs Traditions argument.

Another question, why is SV so pro Technocracy? I mean they are pretty interesting, it feels like the Traditions for several reasons are sort of marginalized on SV.

 

[BiopunkOtrera]

I know im repeating myself, but my question has been hidden under another Technocracy vs Traditions argument.

Click to shrink...

Mage 20 is pretty solid.

 

[ChineseDrone]

Mostly however, the people who were in charge when the corpses were made are not still alive or in charge. Avatar storm or not, there's probably some technocrats from the 1800s around.

I think you might be mistaking me here though. I'm not saying all technocrats are evil. I'm saying that in general the technocracy works better as antagonists. As avatars of the twisted system that you, as young mages, need to tear down, and ones that manifest the sins of society. From that point of view, the guys at the top being a bunch of old imperialists is actually pretty cool.

I don't really care for revised because it turns down what I regard as the central conflict of the game, the ascension war of tradition vs. technocracy. That's the, bar none, most interesting thing in mage. I kind of wish we could talk about that rather than nitpicking how much responsibility the technocracy has for this or that imperial massacre.

Click to shrink...

Again, within the context of the Technocracy these people would have had their positions changed one way or another. Also, I don't really see why we should assume that Control didn't reprimand/sack/reeducate the Technocrats who were responsible for actually directly committing these crimes after it was decided that the general concept of colonialism was no longer kosher.

As I said, I reject the idea that Mage should have a central antagonist at all--it's contrary to both the postmodern nature of mage and the way actual real life works. As far as I'm concerned it should be moral ambiguity all the way down.

To be honest, I'm not at all invested in the edition wars. Look, I got into Mage, like, 3 months ago, and I wasn't even alive when Mage 2e was published. As far as I'm concerned, my vision of Mage isn't really bound to any one edition--however, I fail to see why the conflict between the Technocracy must be some sort of active war rather than a more subtle conflict, or why the ascension war being a thing needs to make the Technocracy cut and dry antagonists or get rid of all the things revised does well like actually making people believe their paradigm or not making the Technocracy ridiculous cartoon villains.

 

[BlueBiscuit]

It's the same problem with New Mage. They had the perfect badguy (the technocracy) and then rather than improve it as they did from first to second edition mage (man, the first edition technocracy was lulzy as fuck) they ran away from it as much as they could,

Click to shrink...

And nothing of value was lost.

If I were feeling fair, I'd say that Awakening never had any duty to live up to the expectations of many old fans of it being just Ascension with a fresh coat of paint, and that the coming of nMage certainly wasn't heralded by all Ascension books suddenly exploding in a great Paradox backlash.

But even then, calling the Technocracy "the perfect antagonist" is one of the most laughable things ever. THE MAN as represented by the technocracy and it's decade are among the most boring and overdone antagonist in all of fiction, let alone games.

Awakening is all the better the more distance it puts between itself and stuff like the Technocracy, Consensus and the "Running in the 90's" instrumental song that plays whenever you crack open an oMage book.

I know im repeating myself, but my question has been hidden under another Technocracy vs Traditions argument.

Another question, why is SV so pro Technocracy? I mean they are pretty interesting, it feels like the Traditions for several reasons are sort of marginalized on SV.

Click to shrink...

Which one are you interested in, Awakening or Ascension?

 

[hyzmarca]

Again, given that those people were E6+ it kind of beggars belief that they were actually racist and responsible for perpetrating active genocide because... what would be the point of doing that? It's not like every colonial mission ever launched had its Resident Technocrat who told the rest to EXTERMINATE THE SAVAGES!

Click to shrink...

Actually, they probably were going "exterminate the savages." Because those areas have a completely different Consensus, one based on local beliefs (AKA primitive superstitions). The fastest way to change the local Consensus is to kill most of the people who believe the wrong thing.


White Man's Burdern is actually impossible without the active help of the Technocrats, since you quickly run into places where gunpowder doesn't explode, steel is brittle, and the spirits actively try to murder invaders, making rationalist Europeans particularly vulnerable.

Basically, Consensus Reality means that all of Cortez's equipment stops working the second he steps off the boat unless there is a high-level technocrat helping him.

He's assisted by the fact that Consensus Reality means that Cortes is an actual fucking god. But that's just something else that the Technocracy would want to suppress by killing as many Aztecs as possible before the Europeans notice that it's true.

Which is good, because if we didn't we would be living in a world were White people are literal deities and you can imagine how much that would exacerbate racism.

 

[Mrl567]

And nothing of value was lost.

If I were feeling fair, I'd say that Awakening never had any duty to live up to the expectations of many old fans of it being just Ascension with a fresh coat of paint, and that those that coming of nMage certainly wasn't heralded by all Ascension books suddenly exploding in a great Paradox backlash.

But even then, calling the Technocracy "the perfect antagonist" is one of the most laughable things ever. THE MAN as represented by the technocracy and it's decade are among the most boring and overdone antagonist in all of fiction, let alone games.

Awakening is all the better the more distance it puts between itself and stuff like the Technocracy, Consensus and the "Running in the 90's" instrumental song that plays whenever you crack open an oMage book.


Which one are you interested in, Awakening or Ascension?

Click to shrink...

I am interesting in Ascension more.