... Huh. You know, I knew about those. Even know the story about the discoverer and his son. I did not know they were one centimetre.
You and me both, actually, I knew they were small, but they were so small and transparent that until that 1975 discovery it was thought by some people that it was just a disease, scientists still think that there are other species of the Irukandji, but they haven't found them.
 
Eh. Technocrats have been using prophecy for a long time and managed to mostly be right despite opposition.

They just call these Rotes, "economic forecasts", "weather reports", "disaster preparedness plans" and "technological development cycles."

Every time you see a weather report on your local news affiliate recall that this is part of a grand technocratic working to make attempts by Tradionalists to cast 'lightning bolt' on demand harder. If you are investing in a fortune 500 company understand that you are taking advantage of a rote that, less than a century or two ago, was vulgar as fuck being cast by a skilled linear mage called an 'financial advisor' trained in Syndicate Indoctrination Camps (like the famous and reviled 'Yale' or 'Harvard') to draw raw power from the world's most powerful Node (located at 11 Wall St, New York, NY 10005, United States).

Yes, prophecy is not only one of the most powerful weapons in the Technocracy's playbook it is one so powerful and common most people don't even realize that it exists. Being three steps ahead in prophectic warfare is a big part of how the Technocracy has been winning the Ascension War for the last four hundred years.

Technocratic prophecy is probably far more vulgar now that it was a century ago, because they didn't have Chaos theory then.
 
Technocratic prophecy is probably far more vulgar now that it was a century ago, because they didn't have Chaos theory then.

Nah. The Union already gauges things in gradients of probabilities rather than bird viscera. So The probably 'dox contributes to the uncertainty and estimated error and all that jazz.

I mean the weatherman just goes "sixty percent chance of precipitation in the afternoon" and if he's wrong people just get pissy and he goes "well what can you do?" The local Doppler dish doesn't explode or anything.
 
Technocratic prophecy is probably far more vulgar now that it was a century ago, because they didn't have Chaos theory then.

No. Chaos Theory is an in-paradigm way of explaining the way that Time magic works, where the accuracy of your precognition is capped by the number of successes you get and gets more inaccurate the further from the present time you're looking. After all, since people actually believe their paradigms, any actually-functional paradigm with a solid underpinning will have comprehensive explanations for its own limitations.

After all, Time only ever gives you possible futures. To get a perfectly accurate forecast, you'd need to throw in high level Entropy and effectively pick out a possible future and force it to happen - and that'd be an utter bitch to do, requiring at least Entropy 4 and a lot of successes because you're going to have to snag a lot of people in a giant destiny. It's much easier to get a bunch of people to all do Time 2 forecasts and average things out - and doesn't tell everyone with Entropy 1 that something big is going down.
 
No. Chaos Theory is an in-paradigm way of explaining the way that Time magic works, .

Nah. Chaos theory goes fully against what the technocracy believes, which is a universe that's predictable and ultimately neutonian.

It being a thing the traditions invented to make the Technocracy's best predictive stuff vulgar makes a lot more sense than your desire to have your favourite faction in the game win at everything.

Edit: to be a bit less stroppy, yes, what you said is probably where the etherites got the idea of how Chaos theory works. However there's no way it's something the technocracy came up with, because that's not what the technocracy is actually about.

Nah. The Union already gauges things in gradients of probabilities rather than bird viscera. So The probably 'dox contributes to the uncertainty and estimated error and all that jazz.

I mean the weatherman just goes "sixty percent chance of precipitation in the afternoon" and if he's wrong people just get pissy and he goes "well what can you do?" The local Doppler dish doesn't explode or anything.

That is, for the desires of the technocracy, the limitations of engineering, not of science.

The technocracy would almost certainly love it if they could get weather prediction to look like fate in the V for Vendetta comic. "At 10:37 there will be a shower lasting approximately 9 minutes, followed by clear skies."

Chaos Theory means you can't actually do that.
 
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I wonder if it's possible for a Tzimisce to work with a mage, and other supernatural beings to create a better, or Refine a family of Revenants?

I see Revenants as dog breeding by the Sabbat, it could be interesting to see in an AU where the supernatural does that with humanity in secret.

Sounds like an interesting videogame idea.
 
Nah. Chaos theory goes fully against what the technocracy believes, which is a universe that's predictable and ultimately neutonian.

It being a thing the traditions invented to make the Technocracy's best predictive stuff vulgar makes a lot more sense than your desire to have your favourite faction in the game win at everything.

Edit: to be a bit less stroppy, yes, what you said is probably where the etherites got the idea of how Chaos theory works. However there's no way it's something the technocracy came up with, because that's not what the technocracy is actually about.



That is, for the desires of the technocracy, the limitations of engineering, not of science.

The technocracy would almost certainly love it if they could get weather prediction to look like fate in the V for Vendetta comic. "At 10:37 there will be a shower lasting approximately 9 minutes, followed by clear skies."

Chaos Theory means you can't actually do that.
That's not how chaos theory works, nor does it make any sense for a paradigm to have no room for failure.

Chaos theory, in fact, and nondeterministic mechanics in general, is precisely about forcing order upon and successfully predicting chaotic systems.
 
All things that could possibly weaken or undermine the Technocracy don't and can't do so because of how the entire setting is wrapped up in its own conceits.

It's why I'm always so annoyed talking about it.

It's not even wrong for the conceit of the setting and how it all works, it just mostly bores me and makes me think again that I don't care about the Technocracy either as an antagonist or (as 4/5ths of this thread seem to think of them) the great protagonist faction of everywhere let's talk endlessly about how amazing they are.

They bore me either way.

Blah, I'm going to bed.
 
Nah. Chaos theory goes fully against what the technocracy believes, which is a universe that's predictable and ultimately neutonian.
Neutonian isn't a word.

It is, however, a song by a San Fransisco electronic psychedelic industrial band called annodalleb.

I presume that you mean Newtonian, but that raises the problem that they didn't kill Einstein. Really, the decision to switch to relativity over classical Newtonian mechanics is the entire reason that the Electrodyne Engineers defected.
 
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All things that could possibly weaken or undermine the Technocracy don't and can't do so because of how the entire setting is wrapped up in its own conceits.

It's why I'm always so annoyed talking about it.

It's not even wrong for the conceit of the setting and how it all works, it just mostly bores me and makes me think again that I don't care about the Technocracy either as an antagonist or (as 4/5ths of this thread seem to think of them) the great protagonist faction of everywhere let's talk endlessly about how amazing they are.

They bore me either way.

Blah, I'm going to bed.
I get that you don't like the Technocracy, but like... popping in just to complain about how you don't like or care about the Technocracy isn't exactly worthwhile for anyone else to read either.
 
I get that you don't like the Technocracy, but like... popping in just to complain about how you don't like or care about the Technocracy isn't exactly worthwhile for anyone else to read either.

Sorry. Being slightly constructive, I think the entire premise of the setting, the way it is currently interpreted and frankly the way it is most logically interpreted, makes it hard to deal with the Technocracy as a setting element that doesn't take over everything around it.

Because it is the status quo/sins of the west/whatever, it means that pretty much everything I've ever seen written here is designed to buff the Technocracy and its power even more. It's hard to even think of a way the Technocracy hasn't won, because of the way consensual reality and paradigm and "The Technocracy is the West" is set up.

So my point was that it was a fundamental setting flaw and that the last forever of this thread when we get to it has mostly been elaborating on how powerful the Technocracy is and how totally dominant they are and how if you think you see something that might be a weakness or a flaw it's either secretly not, or it's a flaw in the same sense that 'modern society' has flaws.[1]

[1] IE, it's sometimes sexist...but remember the Traditions are even more sexist, a lot of them. Or it used to be racist but isn't anymore and the Traditions are the go-to hidey-hole for all racists. Or etc. Sins of current modern society which are implied to be fixed right around the corner if you just give them a decade or two to work it out.

*****
I hope that's at least slightly more coherent? I'm tired, so it might not be.
 
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No, chaos theory is not in contradiction with determinism.

And the Technocracy does not require Newtonian mechanics in the slightest.

They don't require it, but it makes things much easier for them. The technocracy's universal plan is that the universe is a perfectly causal structure that behaves in a predictable way. A cosmic watch. Chaos theory etc. make it so the world does not function in that fashion. Future prediction was assumed easy IRL, and then proved far harder to do because of the way the universe works.

A deterministic universe is a lot less useful to the technocracy than is a predictable one.

If you don't want it to be a thing the etherites came up with to fuck with the technocracy, then just have it be a part of how the sleepers are rebelling against what the technocracy is trying to give them.
 
Isn't Chaos theory basically saying that all of the variables matter? That sounds like it screws over the traditions more than the technocracy, given that one side has significantly more capacity to observer all of those.
 
...dude, quantum mechanics is like a thousand times more accurate than Newtonian mechanics. QM is so predictavely accurate that, to give you an analogy, it is like predicting the location of a single pin in an area the size of North America to within the width of a sheet of paper.
 
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They don't require it, but it makes things much easier for them. The technocracy's universal plan is that the universe is a perfectly causal structure that behaves in a predictable way. A cosmic watch. Chaos theory etc. make it so the world does not function in that fashion. Future prediction was assumed easy IRL, and then proved far harder to do because of the way the universe works.

A deterministic universe is a lot less useful to the technocracy than is a predictable one.

If you don't want it to be a thing the etherites came up with to fuck with the technocracy, then just have it be a part of how the sleepers are rebelling against what the technocracy is trying to give them.
... *is holding his head*

Dude. Please. Take some math courses first before you talk.

Sorry. Being slightly constructive, I think the entire premise of the setting, the way it is currently interpreted and frankly the way it is most logically interpreted, makes it hard to deal with the Technocracy as a setting element that doesn't take over everything around it.

I mean... yes. That is the point of having an antagonist. This isn't Exalted, where the idea is "you do whatever" - oMage has a metaplot, explicitly. The Ascension War is the point of the game.

It's hard to run oMage without the Technocracy, in fact. I guess you could build the universe so that it tends towards stasis on its own, and so everyone is a different kind of Tradition...? But there'd still be Mages that defect, and they would be winning. Discarding the Union requires discarding Consensus and paradigms, and honestly that's coolest part of oMage.
 
They don't require it, but it makes things much easier for them. The technocracy's universal plan is that the universe is a perfectly causal structure that behaves in a predictable way. A cosmic watch. Chaos theory etc. make it so the world does not function in that fashion. Future prediction was assumed easy IRL, and then proved far harder to do because of the way the universe works.

A deterministic universe is a lot less useful to the technocracy than is a predictable one.
No, chaos theory doesn't. Chaos theory is about predicting these things. You know how chaos theory's whole premise is that small changes in initial variables can lead to very different results, even though it'll be complicated to calculate?

It privileges people who have the resources to collate all the data on these small variables and their states and then calculate the results. Most people can't do that, and so have to make do with inaccurate predictions.

Except for, you know, the Technocracy.

Newtonian mechanics don't make it meaningfully easier to calculate the world than relativistic or quantum mechanics; the degree to which they make the math 'more complicated' is far outstripped by every other advancement the Technocracy has made in computation.

If you don't want it to be a thing the etherites came up with to fuck with the technocracy, then just have it be a part of how the sleepers are rebelling against what the technocracy is trying to give them.
There's no reason for it to be either.
 
Because it is the status quo/sins of the west/whatever, it means that pretty much everything I've ever seen written here is designed to buff the Technocracy and its power even more. It's hard to even think of a way the Technocracy hasn't won, because of the way consensual reality and paradigm and "The Technocracy is the West" is set up.

I think...mm. I tend to come down pro-Union in the debates heh, just because I really like the scifi-futuretech stuff more than the repressed magical stuff and I like being a part of The Man more than I like being a scrappy resistance fighter. :V

But you've kind of got a point I think. In that the Union often does feel sorta rosy. Sorta "well yes but" in how it's described in the thread wrt its sins.

I think the way that the Union is often described lacks a lot of the visceral fear and horror that would make it, not relateable exactly that's not really the word I'm looking for, but more nuanced maybe? More subtle? I mean part of that is just the fact that the Union as a whole has been caught between hurricanes in the gameline and a lot of the vigorous masturbation is a reaction to the sloppy oral the devs were giving the Trads for a long while afaik. And even the more contemplative and thoughtful, uh, thoughts that a lot of the thread regulars hand out in here is colored by it. And that's not bad or good or anything, it's just sort of the way it is.

But in terms of what I think like...

Like ogres and onions the Union has layers ultimately. Taking it from the perspective of a character in the setting: there's the outside, where you first see it as this huge monolithic thing. Fearsome and implacable and unrelenting. More of a vast, cogent, machine than any human organization: moving and adjusting and pruning away the undesirable bits, cultivating and encouraging the things it prefers. Then you open it up, get inside, and see that it's got very human parts. Human parts that can be your friends, be your coworkers, be the people you grab a cyber-beer with in the neon near future and all that jazz. It's harder to be afraid of Alex Mercer when you see him 9-to-5 every day and trade days to bring in bagels for the office. The Union becomes a thing with very human foibles and human failings and human virtues. And its easy as a character to go "oh wow I was completely wrong, they gave us fast food and internet porn and all the things I really like, fuck yeah Union".

And then you peel back the final layer and see that it's dark and disturbing in a very different way than the implacable machine.

The Union is workers throwing themselves from Beijing rooftops because maybe death would be better than this miserable half-life and at the very least it can't be worse. The Union is war machines crawling through Mesopotamian dirt while vast engines suck Quintessence from the ground. The Union is the Great Barrier Reef dying and antibiotic resistant bacteria proliferating and soft black bags in the night and we can fix it, we can fix all of it, just give us some time and we'll get it right honest.

There's an unfairness there. There's that element of "they can't keep getting away with it". Strains of hypocrisy that get buried deep and nobody talks about or analyzes or confronts them because hey, we're the good guys right? Sure we do bad things but we're doing what's right in the end. And we're better than we were and we'll be even better tomorrow so that makes it all okay right? And even the jaded senior operatives use their cynicism like armor. "Well someone has to plunge their hands into the muck, just the way it is, world is a dirty and ugly place and we're just taking out the trash".

That's part of why I like Threat Null a lot heh. Because they're the Union's sins incarnate. They're reality taking the Union by the collar and grinding their face in the mirror and going "look at this. Look at what you made. Look at what you are."

If that makes any sense I mean? Idk I'm sorta bleary and just slapping the keyboard at this point. :V
 
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All things that could possibly weaken or undermine the Technocracy don't and can't do so because of how the entire setting is wrapped up in its own conceits.

[ . . . ]
They bore me either way.

Blah, I'm going to bed.
A Changeling finds the Technocracy, a Banality 8-10 organization, to be boring. Why am I not surprised? Well, I'm not surprised because for all your denials, it's in you blood! Your legacy! Embrace it!
 
*cough*

So I haven't looked back on the old conversations, but while we seem to be on the topic...

I'm looking to start a Mage: The Awakened (Chronicles!Mage) [2nd ed] Quest that crosses over into another universe. Hopefully Paradox shenanigans ensue, but I've run into a concept-level problem. Well, a couple, but this one I wanted to pitch into the Internet Well.

How does a mage keep up with everything moving faster than they can cast spells? Obviously you can Reach past that restriction, but at some point the never-ending paradox rolls would be grating? Maybe?

Imagine a Mage in Naruto, for example. If a mage gets into a combat situation, how are they not immediately dead?
 
Neutonian isn't a word.

It is, however, a song by a San Fransisco electronic psychedelic industrial band called annodalleb.

I presume that you mean Newtonian, but that raises the problem that they didn't kill Einstein. Really, the decision to switch to relativity over classical Newtonian mechanics is the entire reason that the Electrodyne Engineers defected.

No, switching out Ether was what made the Etherites defect. The Technocracy wasn't expecting such a grand rejection, and so Sleepers actually got to decide the future there. However, Quantum Mechanics is officially a f*** you from the Sons of Ether to the Technocracy on there way out the door. I believe ES argues that that was a huge mistakes, but that's sort of a side point.

edit:

Sorry. Being slightly constructive, I think the entire premise of the setting, the way it is currently interpreted and frankly the way it is most logically interpreted, makes it hard to deal with the Technocracy as a setting element that doesn't take over everything around it.

Because it is the status quo/sins of the west/whatever, it means that pretty much everything I've ever seen written here is designed to buff the Technocracy and its power even more. It's hard to even think of a way the Technocracy hasn't won, because of the way consensual reality and paradigm and "The Technocracy is the West" is set up.

So my point was that it was a fundamental setting flaw and that the last forever of this thread when we get to it has mostly been elaborating on how powerful the Technocracy is and how totally dominant they are and how if you think you see something that might be a weakness or a flaw it's either secretly not, or it's a flaw in the same sense that 'modern society' has flaws.[1]

[1] IE, it's sometimes sexist...but remember the Traditions are even more sexist, a lot of them. Or it used to be racist but isn't anymore and the Traditions are the go-to hidey-hole for all racists. Or etc. Sins of current modern society which are implied to be fixed right around the corner if you just give them a decade or two to work it out.

*****
I hope that's at least slightly more coherent? I'm tired, so it might not be.


The 'sins of the modern world' interpretation isn't exactly the one the books support, or the one you should automatically go with. Lots of them go rather with 'everything wrong with the world today.' That worked better in the nineties for various international reasons. and they softened their approach towards the end. You shouldn't automatically take everything you read on this board as gospel truth, though.

Culturally, the Traditions have had lots of victories, they just haven't had victories that blossomed into into letting the main body of their paradigm win, except the Virtual Adapts, who were behind the entire computer revolution and then the internet revolution.

Green technology is Etherite. It's a product of shamanistically gifted Sons of Ether being able to make technology that respects, and hence isn't rejected by, the natural world.

All the social upheaval and and liberalizing cultural change of the forties through the seventies? That was the Cult of Ecstasy and the Verbena.

The whole religious tolerance movement? That's a mix of The Celestial Chorus (who are officially quite universal in their religiosity rather then just Christian) and the Cult of Ecstasy.

Now, Technocracy has successfully rolled with all those punches, done the Jujutsu required to recover from those setbacks, to own them, and make them theirs... but that isn't exactly the same thing.

Basically, the whole 'sins of the modern world' argument is... well, not deeply supported.
 
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How does a mage keep up with everything moving faster than they can cast spells? Obviously you can Reach past that restriction, but at some point the never-ending paradox rolls would be grating? Maybe?
It only costs one Reach to cast a spell instantly and you get a free Reach just from having the minimum requirements to cast a spell, so instant casting on it's own doesn't cause a Paradox roll.
Imagine a Mage in Naruto, for example. If a mage gets into a combat situation, how are they not immediately dead?
What's stopping them from immediately teleporting away? Or using Mind, Forces or Life 2 to become any of several kinds of imperceptible?
 
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