- Location
- Italy
You know, maybe we should consider a "vicky_moloch Vs" thread, exclusively for this kind of discussions, since they seem to happen often enough.
White Wolf's World of Darkness
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
Maybe I should just not reply to the post above yours. I said that I admit this doesn't seem to produce anything new, because we seem to have very different basic premises regarding many things (e.g. I consider organisations to be sums of their component-persons, just as I consider the brain to be the sum of the component-neurons and those of component-molecules and so on), and I was trying to tone down my replies. But perhaps just not replying to that subthread is what I should do.
13th Bee
Worker
- Location
- Tennessee, USA.
The Technocracy might be willing to put out false-flag propaganda to discredit and make Reactionaries look like idiots to the Sleepers. I could also see them being tricked into attacking the Technocracy's enemies, with some minor support so they do more damage.
I think the key is that at the moment where he starts to strangle her(and no matter what, that strangulation is definitely a contributing cause of her death, given it's part of why she gave up), he was obviously not sane. Her seeming betrayal, treating everything he'd done for her, even treating it as some horrible thing? And bringing Obi Wan to him? He lashed out in uncontrolled anger, certainly aided by his recent actions and fall to the dark side. But that's very different from long term actions that hurt both one's long and short term goals, especially on the scale of an organization.
He's also worked against them when his goals diverged slightly. For instance, in the Vader Comic series he's taken several major actions that have harmed Imperial interests or investigations. He even 'trapped' himself once so that someone could avoid capture. But this is because allowing them to continue would have harmed his goal of "Find my Son(Luke Skywalker), have him join me, and take over the empire(by killing the emperor)". Personal goals can change, and as you noted sometimes short term actions can be taken that in the short term are harmful but in the long term help.
To be fair to Nobel, he was right that the invention of a sufficiently powerful bomb would render war unthinkable. He just drastically underestimated how powerful that bomb would have to be.
Anyway, the religious right are obviously part of the Celestial Chorus. The Westboro Baptist Church is absolutely supported by the Technocracy, but only because its so over the top and nakedly hateful that it harms its own position and even the actual religious right thinks their crazy. But Ted Haggard is obviously member of the Celestial Chorus who was the target of a NWO mind control scheme to make him blow random strange men in public restrooms.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
A lot of megachurches are probably the Celestial Chorus equivalent to Synidcat Primal Ventures, but some are also probably Syndicate-sponsored competition.
Any specific person being this or that faction sounds more like you have an axe to grind against said person. I'd be careful about assigning RL people who are still alive that way.
Any specific person being this or that faction sounds more like you have an axe to grind against said person. I'd be careful about assigning RL people who are still alive that way.
ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
YMMV on that of course, most of the Religious Right rethoric should remind Choristers of the Cabal of Pure Thought.
In my games the Religious Right is indeed a Chorister experiment but one they consider now for many reasons having gone off the deep end.
In my games the Religious Right is indeed a Chorister experiment but one they consider now for many reasons having gone off the deep end.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Obama/Trump is clearly a member of [Evil Faction].
Because [Long Argument.]
Obviously both of them are members of the same evil faction!
Politicians!
- Pronouns
- They/Them
The hilarious thing is when it's done in reverse. When you're not slandering real-life people, you're trying to slander a faction by associating bad-wrong real-life people with a movement. Look at all of the 'Is the Technocracy/Traditions to blame/not to blame/etc for the Holocaust, Mao's Great Leap Forward, or why it took so fucking long for McDonalds to have all-day breakfastes?'
Yes. The All-Day Breakfast was heavily desired by the Virtual Adepts. When they defected, the Syndicate intentionally blocked it to screw them.
Quantumboost
Now with 50% more dots in Dimensional Science
- Location
- Ensemble Space
...Wasn't the more recent discussion of Maoists in the thread... almost entirely centered around a completely civil "what sort of sociopolitical dynamics in megahuman factions would give rise to/result from these historical events"? As opposed to "who do we blame for this stuff".
'Cuz I'm reasonably sure people ought to be allowed to add, y'know, historical depth and complicated interplays and humans doing dumb things because they're human to settings they like playing in. That doesn't seem like something that should be lampooned to me.
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
Like, I agree to that as a general principle, but I've seen it or other things used too often as a bludgeon in this endless, back and forth, ridiculous Technocracy vs. Traditions zombie debate. Only it's more tired and dead than zombies.
God knows that I, a person with a BA in history, generally approve of having settings with a rich understanding of their own history and the like.
Perhaps I merely distrust White Wolf historiography and online sources so much that I generally take everything with a deep grain of salt.
Part of it is that despite liking nWoD which did some of this too, I always feel leery around the 'history was run by the MIB' sorts of things. Yes, it's a lot more complicated than that, and good on people online for fleshing these things out, but it always felt just a little wrong/off to me in a way I understand is entirely personal preference.
It's part of why I like the nWoD, I suppose, since most mentions of history are about supernatural beings *reacting to* the mortal actions and actors of history in a way I can grasp and apply my learning to, rather than this whole separate process that I somehow have to tie into history to make it all make sense.
Like, I have to take, "Everything I know about the U.S. Civil War" and then ask "What if oWoD Vamps were there, they'd clearly be major parts of history because nothing gets done without supernatural beings in the oWoD, so how do I shove this nonexistant thing into the gaps of my knowledge of this timeline without something blowing up."
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The thing that bugs me about that is that it makes no sense, the setting loses consistency. With all these supernaturals with super-socials and Mind rotes and Bureaucracy Charms and who knows what else running around, the only way to end up with anything even vaguely resembling history as we know it (that doesn't boil down to "we were always at war with Eastasia") is to have them basically be behind it all, or at least the vast majority. It turns out, when you give people power, things tend to go their way...
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I think that the nWoD overall deals with this paradox better than the oWoD does. nWoD vampires aren't powerful enough to be behind everything, and their restrictions and far more fragmented nature mean that you can buy that at most they were making ripples in the pond or influencing a few important people in a few important ways, rather than, you know, steering events.
Mages and Changelings are both given so much shit to do that has relatively little to do with who is President, who is fucking who, and whether the government is a monarchy or a dictatorship that they sort of work, too, when you imagine all of the side-projects and interests and enemies they have.
Like, Mages and Changelings are both spoiled for enemies in a way Vampires aren't (depending on how much you emphasize Hunters and VII and etc, admittedly).
No idea where Werewolves fit in.
No, bluntly, it doesn't. When it comes down to it, it doesn't. Owod gives you usually a simplistic and pretty weak version of history, but nwod just waves its hands around frantically and tells you to pretend it's not something that happens.
When it comes down to it, the nwod and its totally separated things which don't interfere is no more satisfying than the owod and its endless conspiracies.
And at least the owod gives more interesting starting blocks for discussion about how to fix its respective mage to sleeper political flaws
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Fine then: for me, in my opinion, for the fiction and my own view of things, I like the way the nWoD handles it more than the oWoD.
There, have I qualified my totally incorrect badwrong opinion enough after two posts in which I was very much talking about my own hangups involving how history is portrayed and connecting it into my opinion on which of the two does it better relative to that?
There, have I qualified my totally incorrect badwrong opinion enough after two posts in which I was very much talking about my own hangups involving how history is portrayed and connecting it into my opinion on which of the two does it better relative to that?
On a side note, something I'm confused about - why do plasma cannons emulate Forces 3? What's the third Sphere dot buying you?
Like, it doesn't seem to be doing any extra damage than a Forces 2 fire attack, which would already do agg, and it's not like it's covering an area or multiple targets or doing loadsadamage or something. What's the mechanical difference between a Forces 2 incendiary round and a Forces 3 plasma cannon?
Like, it doesn't seem to be doing any extra damage than a Forces 2 fire attack, which would already do agg, and it's not like it's covering an area or multiple targets or doing loadsadamage or something. What's the mechanical difference between a Forces 2 incendiary round and a Forces 3 plasma cannon?
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/They
I think it's technically because a plasma cannon is creating its force (superheating plasma) out of thin air whereas an incendiary round is merely magnifying the force that already naturally exists from a bullet hitting the target.
Granted, I'm probably off-base here because this means you could also make a plasma cannon with Forces 2 and a bic lighter
Nah, that'd be reflected with a Prime 2 conjunctional requirement and a mana surcharge, I think.
- Location
- Italy
While I agree that nWoD insistence in saying everything's the same, nothing to see here, move along in regards to history is sometimes SoD breaking, "simplistic and weak" is still giving too much credit to the oWoD's take on it, even examining each gameline by itself without frankensteining their backround histories.
And I say this as someone not really attached to historical accuracy in my modern settings.
And I'm curious what do you mean @EarthScorpion when you say "mage-sleeper political flaws"?
And I say this as someone not really attached to historical accuracy in my modern settings.
And I'm curious what do you mean @EarthScorpion when you say "mage-sleeper political flaws"?
Quantumboost
Now with 50% more dots in Dimensional Science
- Location
- Ensemble Space
He's entirely correct, though. In order to 'transmute' X to Y, you need the relevant Sphere levels to transmute it from X and transmute it to Y. For Forces, transmuting requires Forces 3, full stop, at least up to the point where it starts requiring Forces 4-5. For Life, it's 3 for simple life and 5 for complex life. For Matter, it depends on what properties you're trying to change, but if you're willing to let the gross physical shape remain unchanged you can get by with Matter 2.
So you need Forces 3/Life 3 to abiogenesis salamanders from a fire, Matter 2/Life 3 to make flies appear out of rotting meat, Forces 3/Matter 2 to turn a rock into a flash of light, Matter 2 to turn lead to gold or water to wine, Life 3 to turn a lobster into a blueberry bush, and Forces 3 to turn electricity from an outlet into a fireball.
Creating something ex nihilo requires Prime 2 in conjunction with the transmutation level of whatever-the-fuck it is you're trying to make; effectively, Prime 2 is the transmutation Sphere for 'background potential'. That means to create a bolt of magic exploding fire i.e. plasma without relying on fuel, you need Prime 2/Forces 3 regardless of how strong/weak it is. If you don't have an existing fire to work with, you can't use Forces 2 for it, there simply isn't anything for you to Forces at. That convenience is what requires the third dot in the Sphere.
As written, anyway. You could of course houserule it so that creation ex nihilo can be done with a point of Mana instead of Prime 2, or that Forces requires only Forces 2 to actually transmute Forces. Those are houserules you could have, which would have impacts on what the various Sphere ranks mean to your group. I'll leave it to more experienced STs/players to assess the impact of that.
I mean, that leaves us with the "so why don't they just use a perfectly mundane arc welder or, yes, a lighter, and Forces 2" question. It'd save them a quint a cannon...
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Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Paradigm, one assumes.
Quantumboost
Now with 50% more dots in Dimensional Science
- Location
- Ensemble Space
I dunno. Spess?