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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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MJ12 Commando said:
People should know the God-Machine exists. People should know that whatever space empire runs this sector does so with the tacit approval of the God-Machine, which has declared that Thou Shalt Not Fuck Around With It In Its Historic Light-Cone Or Else. People should know that the God-Machine has autonomous synthetic lifeforms which serve it, in the form of Angels. And people should know that Daemons are rogue automata built by the God-Machine. They should know, they should be watching, they should understand. And Daemons should still be able to slip through the cracks and play their game, because simply the knowledge that spies exist doesn't give you the tools to instantly vanish them.
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Except that then the entire universe is Mechopolis. It's not "because spies exist and we know about them" it's "Why in the hell would demons not just walk around in 'loud' mode when you have changelings doing the same thing?" Is it, 'well, because *mumble mumble* God Machine *mumble mumble* Invisible War *mumble mumble*' Because other supernaturals have whole histories (or did in the past) of hiding themselves and their histories from mankind in nWoD. So it becomes an issue of how having the God Machine actively fucking with everyone everywhere isn't suitable for "And now all the supernaturals are exposed."
 
AshenFox said:
Except that then the entire universe is Mechopolis. It's not "because spies exist and we know about them" it's "Why in the hell would demons not just walk around in 'loud' mode when you have changelings doing the same thing?" Is it, 'well, because *mumble mumble* God Machine *mumble mumble* Invisible War *mumble mumble*' Because other supernaturals have whole histories (or did in the past) of hiding themselves and their histories from mankind in nWoD. So it becomes an issue of how having the God Machine actively fucking with everyone everywhere isn't suitable for "And now all the supernaturals are exposed."
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because demons look like horrible monsters when they go loud, while angels can have their forms tailored to be PR friendly. if the GM is known around the world, that doesn't mean that it has to stop what it's doing, it just has to make it look like it's making the world better for humanity, while making it look like the demons are evil terrorists bent on destroying things for the sake of destroying them.

it's easy to set things up so that the GM is accepted as good, forcing demons to keep doing exactly what they're doing now, even after the masquerade has been broken.
 
Xyzarach said:
because demons look like horrible monsters when they go loud, while angels can have their forms tailored to be PR friendly. if the GM is known around the world, that doesn't mean that it has to stop what it's doing, it just has to make it look like it's making the world better for humanity, while making it look like the demons are evil terrorists bent on destroying things for the sake of destroying them.

it's easy to set things up so that the GM is accepted as good, forcing demons to keep doing exactly what they're doing now, even after the masquerade has been broken.
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*points back to Mechopolis*
I literally covered that in the EXACT SAME POST.
If you do this, and you're using canon GM, it will just erase anyone who it deems unworthy from reality and control everything. Every outpost is just more expansion for the GM, and everyone just serves their God. Forever. Then End.
 
AshenFox said:
*points back to Mechopolis*
I literally covered that in the EXACT SAME POST.
If you do this, and you're using canon GM, it will just erase anyone who it deems unworthy from reality and control everything. Every outpost is just more expansion for the GM, and everyone just serves their God. Forever. Then End.
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Just because the secrets are out doesn't mean that everyone stops hiding. Changelings for instance will never be able to walk freely, it's simply too dangerous to leave yourself out like that. The machine will probably remain mostly hidden because it doesn't benefit from everyone knowing about what it's doing. Keep in mind that the GM city really only works because there's no one to contradict the machine and its angels. In a world where people know what's up and the various supes can say "don't trust that thing" it's a lot harder for the machine to act openly.
 
cmwatford said:
Just because the secrets are out doesn't mean that everyone stops hiding. Changelings for instance will never be able to walk freely, it's simply too dangerous to leave yourself out like that. The machine will probably remain mostly hidden because it doesn't benefit from everyone knowing about what it's doing. Keep in mind that the GM city really only works because there's no one to contradict the machine and its angels. In a world where people know what's up and the various supes can say "don't trust that thing" it's a lot harder for the machine to act openly.
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Oh for the love of... have you even read Infinite Macabre?!
THAT IS LITERALLY THE ASSUMPTION!
Mages, Changelings, vampires, werewolves, hunters, Sin-Eaters, Prometheans (Promethei?), psychics, and everyone else ALL operate in the open. Changelings aren't hidden anymore. They, in fact, are trying to find the world where the Gentry live (yes, the Gentry are magic aliens in Infinite Macabre).

So, tell me again how everyone is hiding in the universe that defaults to "it's all exposed", which I quoted directly from the book earlier. -_-
 
AshenFox said:
Mages, Changelings, vampires, werewolves, hunters, Sin-Eaters, Prometheans (Promethei?), psychics, and everyone else ALL operate in the open. Changelings aren't hidden anymore. They, in fact, are trying to find the world where the Gentry live (yes, the Gentry are magic aliens in Infinite Macabre).
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Now I'm imagining a swat team with Changelings in it.
 
notanautomaton said:
According to the Didgital Web book (or maybe Virtual Adepts traditionbook) going into the web is straight Corr. I consider this to be stupid, and disregard it whenever I can.
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Core book and the other two.

The Digital Web isn't supposed to be another dimension, or the world of the spirits, its supposed to be here, written into our world, and founded on the stolen remains of Mount Qaf, which was itself the reflection of the true correspondence point, the place where all places are one, which the lie of space is built upon. It's a lie built on a truth and something the Adapts in their future obsessed way ignore, to their own peril.

Calling it another dimension means your ignoring one of the major gnostic elements of the game, one of the places where the truth underneath consensual reality peaks through.
 
TheLastOne said:
Core book and the other two.

The Digital Web isn't supposed to be another dimension, or the world of the spirits, its supposed to be here, written into our world, and founded on the stolen remains of Mount Qaf, which was itself the reflection of the true correspondence point, the place where all places are one, which the lie of space is built upon. It's a lie built on a truth and something the Adapts in their future obsessed way ignore, to their own peril.

Calling it another dimension means your ignoring one of the major gnostic elements of the game, one of the places where the truth underneath consensual reality peaks through.
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And I say that's dumb, and misses the point of Consensus Reality.
 
AshenFox said:
Oh for the love of... have you even read Infinite Macabre?!
THAT IS LITERALLY THE ASSUMPTION!
Mages, Changelings, vampires, werewolves, hunters, Sin-Eaters, Prometheans (Promethei?), psychics, and everyone else ALL operate in the open. Changelings aren't hidden anymore. They, in fact, are trying to find the world where the Gentry live (yes, the Gentry are magic aliens in Infinite Macabre).

So, tell me again how everyone is hiding in the universe that defaults to "it's all exposed", which I quoted directly from the book earlier. -_-
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well yes, but the Gentry are still a thing, and they can still kidnap people near unopposed, there wouldn't be any Changelings otherwise. just because everyone and their grandmother now know that the supernatural is real, and that everyone can operate out in the open, doesn't mean that absolutely everyone does. Changelings can walk around with their true form showing because they won't get hunted down by crazed mobs (well, they might, in an area controlled by Hunters), but that doesn't mean that they will, because then they're walking around going "Hey! my old keeper! come and get me, I'm right here!". if the gentry can grab you once, when everyone in the universe knows about them, then they can sure as hell grab you again when you advertise where you are.

Hunters are also still a thing, and are still going around murdering anything 'inhuman'. they aren't going to do this completely openly, because at least some (probably most) areas of space are going to have laws against that kind of thing. and in the areas where they can operate openly, the other super-naturals can't.

Now open this up to Demons and the GM. some areas of space are going to be controlled by the GM, acting as a friendly alien intelligence benevolently guiding a planet toward the future, while demons do what they normally do. just having complete control of a given society isn't going to be enough to stamp demons out, as even with the near compete control it already has, it still can't stop them from falling in Canon. then you have other areas of space, where the GM has little to no control, and you have rebel groups who believe that the GM is an amoral monster, which they then wage interstellar war with.


tl;dr: even if everyone can be out in the open in certain places, they can't do that everywhere, and would have reasons not to act openly even in places where they can.
 
AshenFox said:
*points back to Mechopolis*
I literally covered that in the EXACT SAME POST.
If you do this, and you're using canon GM, it will just erase anyone who it deems unworthy from reality and control everything. Every outpost is just more expansion for the GM, and everyone just serves their God. Forever. Then End.
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The God Machine is ineffable. It cannot be effed. Who the fuck knows why it ever does or does not do anything?

notanautomaton said:
And I say that's dumb, and misses the point of Consensus Reality.
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The point of Consensus reality is that every human is constantly using sphere magic all the time without know it, subtly warping reality to match their precoceptions. But if you killed all humans, Consensual reality would cease to exist. Since reality presumably existed before humans came into being, there must be some underlying truth that would assert itself if we were wiped out. Some truth that we can't see because it's covered up by our beleifs.
 
hyzmarca said:
The point of Consensus reality is that every human is constantly using sphere magic all the time without know it, subtly warping reality to match their precoceptions. But if you killed all humans, Consensual reality would cease to exist. Since reality presumably existed before humans came into being, there must be some underlying truth that would assert itself if we were wiped out. Some truth that we can't see because it's covered up by our beleifs.
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Why?

No, seriously, why? That axiom is completely unsupported. In a universe where everyone is a dreaming god, why must there be a "before" or an "underlying truth"?

You say "if you killed all humans, Consensus Reality would cease to exist". I say "If you killed all humans, reality would cease to exist". Because you've just killed all the sleepers dreaming the world into being.
 
EarthScorpion said:
Why?

No, seriously, why? That axiom is completely unsupported. In a universe where everyone is a dreaming god, why must there be a "before" or an "underlying truth"?

You say "if you killed all humans, Consensus Reality would cease to exist". I say "If you killed all humans, reality would cease to exist". Because you've just killed all the sleepers dreaming the world into being.
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Because I find the uncaused cause to be completely invalid. Ultimately, when you answer "who created God" with "no one, he always existed" you're making a logical cop-out. The question of how these dreaming gods came to exist is one that might be unanswerable, to but to assert that they cause themselves is to deny logic itself, a far greater sin than denying reality.
 
hyzmarca said:
Because I find the uncaused cause to be completely invalid. Ultimately, when you answer "who created God" with "no one, he always existed" you're making a logical cop-out. The question of how these dreaming gods came to exist is one that might be unanswerable, to but to assert that they cause themselves is to deny logic itself, a far greater sin than denying reality.
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Logic is a lie used to chain our minds hyzmarca.
 
Well, I dunno. Humans have beliefs about what would happen if you killed all humans, too. So Consensus Reality might not actually end with the death of all the dreamers - but it'd still be Consensus.
 
EarthScorpion said:
Why?

No, seriously, why? That axiom is completely unsupported. In a universe where everyone is a dreaming god, why must there be a "before" or an "underlying truth"?

You say "if you killed all humans, Consensus Reality would cease to exist". I say "If you killed all humans, reality would cease to exist". Because you've just killed all the sleepers dreaming the world into being.
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Because (and this is just my opinion, so YMMV) all of reality being a schizophrenic fever dream, which will simply pop like a soap bubble leaving nothing behind when all the dreamers are gone, is less interesting than everyone being caged reality warping gods, who even in sleep twist the world around them, but that if you look hard enough and search far enough you will find glimpses of the real 'Truth' of reality hidden in the eddies.

the first simply has it that the world is as it is, nothing more and nothing else, with nothing truly mattering in the end, while the later allows for quests to find the real Truth of reality, and the root of everything that is.
 
Xyzarach said:
Because (and this is just my opinion, so YMMV) all of reality being a schizophrenic fever dream, which will simply pop like a soap bubble leaving nothing behind when all the dreamers are gone, is less interesting than everyone being caged reality warping gods, who even in sleep twist the world around them, but that if you look hard enough and search far enough you will find glimpses of the real 'Truth' of reality hidden in the eddies.

the first simply has it that the world is as it is, nothing more and nothing else, with nothing truly mattering in the end, while the later allows for quests to find the real Truth of reality, and the root of everything that is.
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Then go play Awakening, rather than Ascension. There is a Mage game built around trying to find the scraps of truth in a prison world for chained gods. It's not Ascension.

hyzmarca said:
Because I find the uncaused cause to be completely invalid. Ultimately, when you answer "who created God" with "no one, he always existed" you're making a logical cop-out. The question of how these dreaming gods came to exist is one that might be unanswerable, to but to assert that they cause themselves is to deny logic itself, a far greater sin than denying reality.
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Ah yes, "logic". That product of ancient Greek philosophers, among others. Philosophers who were the antecedents of the Order of Hermes and thus the Order of Reason and thus the Technocracy.

That you put it on such a vaunted pedestal indicates you're not ready to accept the truth of the world. Still too chained by the stasis of the western paradigms and their obsession with "linear time" and "logic" and "reason".
 
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Broken25 said:
Dude. Consensual reality is all about contradictory facts that are all true. Ascension premise breaks logic since the start.
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Not at all. Consensual reality is about different facts being true depending the beliefs of the people in proximity to you. This can be expressed in a perfectly logical manner. It can be can be studied and understood.

Xyzarach said:
Because (and this is just my opinion, so YMMV) all of reality being a schizophrenic fever dream, which will simply pop like a soap bubble leaving nothing behind when all the dreamers are gone, is less interesting than everyone being caged reality warping gods, who even in sleep twist the world around them, but that if you look hard enough and search far enough you will find glimpses of the real 'Truth' of reality hidden in the eddies.
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I wouldn't call them chained gods. I would call them blind idiot gods. The sleepers are perfectly free, and the trumpeting only keeps them asleep because they want it to. They're enjoying the dream and have neither reason not desire to awake.
 
EarthScorpion said:
I didn't think we ever used pure Corr to move in and out of the Web. I thought every time we had someone physically enter the Web, they were using Spirit in some way (either Spirit + Forces or Spirit + Corr).
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The only time I can think of was Donald transferring both him and Reina physically into the Web; at least, he didn't cross the Gauntlet to do so, and there's word of ST that you can in fact do so via Corr 4.

Though apart from that it's been pretty much all either Astral Immersion or using the Umbra, yes.

Edit: Okay, forgot that Donald didn't have Correspondence 4 at that point, so it was probably Spirit 4. Which makes the Corr 4 houserule more of an 'informed attribute' than something that's actually shown up IC.
notanautomaton said:
According to the Didgital Web book (or maybe Virtual Adepts traditionbook) going into the web is straight Corr. I consider this to be stupid, and disregard it whenever I can.
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Astral Immersion specifically is straight Corr 2. In all the places I remember seeing it in the books, bodily traveling to the Web entails more than Correspondence, apart from a few specialty rotes like the VA Tradbook's version of Apportation.

And eh. It's not really any different with how you can travel to the Astral Reaches with pure Mind - it's effectively one of the alternate Gauntlets described in Book of Worlds and Infinite Tapestry. You can get into the Shard Realm of Time with Time 3 instead of Spirit 3 if you can make your way to Saturn, or shift into the Shard Realm of Correspondence on Mercury with Correspondence 3 (this may or may not entail actually being in the Umbra beforehand). The Digital Web is just that strongly tied to Correspondence, and has enough belief anchoring it that it can exist in Consensual Reality as "the place behind the screen".

Along with tapping into Qaf and all that on the mystic side.
 
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hyzmarca said:
The question of how these dreaming gods came to exist is one that might be unanswerable, but to assert that they cause themselves is to deny logic itself
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It's not, actually. It's to deny an axiom used in logic; that "effect cannot occur without cause", but that's pretty much already fucked in oMage by the higher levels of the Time sphere. Logic at its core, though, is simply following relationships between statements that naturally and provably follow on from one another. To do that you need an axiom; a starting statement that you define as true with no evidence. Science has a number of such fundamental axioms, like "the universe works on consistent rules that don't change randomly" and "we can work out these rules by observing the universe" and for that matter "the universe actually does exist, and we're not lone solipsistic minds dreaming it in a vacuum". Sure, you might say "those are all obvious", but they're not actually provable. We just assume that they are because otherwise there's not much point trying, and they've seemed to hold true up until now.

Your argument, however; that in a subjective reality there is objective truth and that should the Sleepers who define Consensus reality all die, there would be something left over afterwards. That takes as an axiom that Sleepers must have been caused by something outside themselves, and that their existence can't be part of the dream. That's unsupported. And before you use the "you can't have an uncaused cause" argument; a) that's another axiom and b) it's actually a problem in real life for the beginning of the universe as a whole; one that science still hasn't answered (and may never be able to).
 
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