I meant, alter their bodies in the sense of 'I suddenly have Strength 5.'
One of the basic rules of Wizards is that unless they transform, they're as squishy as a human in a world where tons of things have 6-7 Physical Attribute baseline.
Uh...Harry specifically mentioned that as a thing certain wizards can do. The problem is that his paradigm sucks for it since he believes in magic through understanding the forces involved and it's very complicated for him to work biology(you need to increase muscle mass, then strengthen bones to match, etc), as he doesn't know any medicine. His paradigm helps a lot of heavy lifting of raw physics, but is crap for detail work unless he actually went and got a couple of doctorates.
But it could be done. Billy and the Werewolves again, can use partial shapeshifts to grant themselves some of the buffs of being as strong or fast as wolf form while still mostly human, and they're basically masters of abusing that one spell.
It's important to keep in mind that Harry's perspective is a Forces + Prime musclehead.
Uh...Harry specifically mentioned that as a thing certain wizards can do. The problem is that his paradigm sucks for it since he believes in magic through understanding the forces involved and it's very complicated for him to work biology(you need to increase muscle mass, then strengthen bones to match, etc), as he doesn't know any medicine. His paradigm helps a lot of heavy lifting of raw physics, but is crap for detail work unless he actually went and got a couple of doctorates.
But it could be done. Billy and the Werewolves again, can use partial shapeshifts to grant themselves some of the buffs of being as strong or fast as wolf form while still mostly human, and they're basically masters of abusing that one spell.
It's important to keep in mind that Harry's perspective is a Forces + Prime musclehead.
Maybe, but I'm still not just sure you can just jam Wizards into a Mage hat and make it fit. It feels a little bit like stretching.
I'm also sure paradigm is also only *partially* a thing, because even "paradigms" which don't include science actually have, you know, huge problems shapeshifting others because 'where does the brain go' and other problems, hence how it's against one of the laws of magic. So it's clear that even when they don't believe in science, science believes in them, whereas with, say, oMage, in a place where their paradigm is ruling the roost, science is *wrong*.
It's also reasonably clear that it's not common, whereas, you know, pretty much every Thyrsus that puts any focus on Life (or any other Path that does try Life) can do it.
I mean, admittedly, on the 'is it simpler' test, just dummying out Mages is simpler, but seems both too powerful and too weak respectively. Unless we're meant to believe that even from the start of the series, Dresden is, like, Forces 4, top of his class, nobody's actually better than him except people with Forces 5. And too powerful because Mages, dude.
Edit: Apologies, not trying to be aggressive with this or anything. Might have come off a little more aggressive than I meant to.
He actually explicitly doesn't think that he's "Normal". It's where a lot of his psychological issues come from actually.
However, he also doesn't have any other perspective then his own when it comes to how to explain things.
Which is why all the side stories can be interesting when Butcher actually writes from the perspective of anther character. Like, say, Thomas!
That was fun.
Wizards aren't very good at improvising outside of very practiced spells or ritual effects, and Harry Dresden just keeps doing that sort of stuff and overcoming the difficulty with More Power.
To be fare, he does that a bit less now. I mean, he didn't brute force win the Hilltop Incident in Cold Days, namely because he himself was like, "I can't win by trying to be an ogre... fuck I have to be a Fae... *stabs fix with a single rusty nail* I win."
In Fool Moon, as mentioned above, we actually do. Harry literally felt like, and could have, bench pressed a truck if he wanted. Of course, the second the energy making all that happen goes away...
I'm also sure paradigm is also only *partially* a thing, because even "paradigms" which don't include science actually have, you know, huge problems shapeshifting others because 'where does the brain go' and other problems, hence how it's against one of the laws of magic. So it's clear that even when they don't believe in science, science believes in them, whereas with, say, oMage, in a place where their paradigm is ruling the roost, science is *wrong*.
Paradigm is a thing to an extent. You can't do anything with magic that you can't imagine / conceptualize, and you also can't do anything you don't believe you can do. Which, for example, is why Harry was shying away from Fire Magic after he was burned. He even mentally KNEW why said so in the book. If he failed with a fire spell, it would start to form a sort of Mental Block that would act as a sort of positive feedback loop. He tries to cast fire magic and fails because he's already failed.
Magic in Dresden Files is very much about Intent, which is why Warlocks and those who break the laws are seen as Insane, because in a way they are. They truly BELIEVE that what they're doing is how things ARE.
Now, magic itself runs on it's own set of rules, but how humans interact with that magic is semi-oWoD in a way.
In fact, it's basically like oWoD Mage if you remove consensus, and all magic users are permanently afflicted with some level of a paradox of, "Technology hates you." Also, remove anything like 'Space'.
I'm also sure paradigm is also only *partially* a thing, because even "paradigms" which don't include science actually have, you know, huge problems shapeshifting others because 'where does the brain go' and other problems, hence how it's against one of the laws of magic. So it's clear that even when they don't believe in science, science believes in them, whereas with, say, oMage, in a place where their paradigm is ruling the roost, science is *wrong*.
I'm not sure this is true; Harry explains it as 'where does the brain go,' yes, but we see shapeshifting that would violate this supposed brain rule fairly often (Lily comes to mind). This is even true when it's cast by humans; it's not like there's room for a human brain in a wolf's skull.
It's also reasonably clear that it's not common, whereas, you know, pretty much every Thyrsus that puts any focus on Life (or any other Path that does try Life) can do it.
He actually explicitly doesn't think that he's "Normal". It's where a lot of his psychological issues come from actually.
However, he also doesn't have any other perspective then his own when it comes to how to explain things.
Which is why all the side stories can be interesting when Butcher actually writes from the perspective of anther character. Like, say, Thomas!
That was fun.
To be fare, he does that a bit less now. I mean, he didn't brute force win the Hilltop Incident in Cold Days, namely because he himself was like, "I can't win by trying to be an ogre... fuck I have to be a Fae... *stabs fix with a single rusty nail* I win."
In Fool Moon, as mentioned above, we actually do. Harry literally felt like, and could have, bench pressed a truck if he wanted. Of course, the second the energy making all that happen goes away...
Paradigm is a thing to an extent. You can't do anything with magic that you can't imagine / conceptualize, and you also can't do anything you don't believe you can do. Which, for example, is why Harry was shying away from Fire Magic after he was burned. He even mentally KNEW why said so in the book. If he failed with a fire spell, it would start to form a sort of Mental Block that would act as a sort of positive feedback loop. He tries to cast fire magic and fails because he's already failed.
Magic in Dresden Files is very much about Intent, which is why Warlocks and those who break the laws are seen as Insane, because in a way they are. They truly BELIEVE that what they're doing is how things ARE.
Now, magic itself runs on it's own set of rules, but how humans interact with that magic is semi-oWoD in a way.
In fact, it's basically like oWoD Mage if you remove consensus, and all magic users are permanently afflicted with some level of a paradox of, "Technology hates you."
True. I mean, I know that magic involves what you can imagine and conceptualize. But in oMage, ignorance is an excuse. Like, you totally can do the impossible if you don't think it's impossible. In the Dresden Files (it says this in the RPG) there are definite problems with turning a person into an animal involving mass and brain that don't really go away if you're too dumb to have thought about them/don't think the brain matters because it's the soul that matters/whatnot.
But yeah, I do know that belief/will are big parts of magic.
Incidentally, is just using 2e Vamp's Vigor, Celerity, and Resilience a good way to get at the supernatural strengths of most of the vampires?
I'm not sure this is true; Harry explains it as 'where does the brain go,' yes, but we see shapeshifting that would violate this supposed brain rule fairly often (Lily comes to mind). This is even true when it's cast by humans; it's not like there's room for a human brain in a wolf's skull.
Or most Wizards have a more restrictive paradigm than Mages. And again, remember that Harry does just that Life-wise as early as Fool Moon.
I wait. Then why is there anyone who can threaten them if they can beef themselves up to superhumans at a snap of their fingers and just haven't bothered doing so since book 2/3?
I'm psyducking slightly right now because the limits I thought they had, they don't actually have. At all.
I mean, Dresden spends a lot of time talking about how the big weakness of Wizards is that they're pretty much squishy mortals, but if they can solve that with a single spell and get into Strength 7-8, then...what?
Edit: It's not even his specialty, not even related to his specialty...and he can do it in book 2?
...I'm almost thinking I should just, I dunno. I don't even know. I have no clue how to actually mechanically represent something like that without it just being an I-win button.
I genuinely kinda just. Hrm. I need time to think and figure this out, but if anything, stopping there from being magical fuel, @notthepenguins , just means they could do something like that without any limits, unless it's an automatic Willpower per turn thing or something?
Edit: Back to the fuel source thing, at the very least it contradicts the fact that Dresden repeatedly says, "X has so much magical power/fuel that they can do spells I can't even try and barely break a sweat" which implies some sort of scale/continum, from weak to strong to Archive to Literally Just Plot Points So Powerful.
In the Dresden Files (it says this in the RPG) there are definite problems with turning a person into an animal involving mass and brain that don't really go away if you're too dumb to have thought about them/don't think the brain matters because it's the soul that matters/whatnot.
We have characters who turn into animals with very small brains compared to humans on a daily basis, and characters who have been turned into statues and been fine afterward. That statement in the RPG (also from Harry's PoV, which is often shown to be false or incomplete) runs rather contrary to what actually happens in the series.
Black Court have them perma-up, White Court are running on 1e Vamp costs instead (they burn through their blood real fast), Reds have increased cost to get them but otherwise work as 2e Vamp, I'd say.
I wait. Then why is there anyone who can threaten them if they can beef themselves up to superhumans at a snap of their fingers and just haven't bothered doing so since book 2/3?
I'm psyducking slightly right now because the limits I thought they had, they don't actually have. At all.
Yeah, but to my knowledge Jim hasn't actually retconned that. I suspect the reason is it fits in the setting but not the genre of story he's telling for Harry, and thus he's quietly ignoring it.
I mean, Dresden spends a lot of time talking about how the big weakness of Wizards is that they're pretty much squishy mortals, but if they can solve that with a single spell and get into Strength 7-8, then...what?
Edit: It's not even his specialty, not even related to his specialty...and he can do it in book 2?
Well, the strength thing didn't make him bulletproof, and it'd be plausible to say that it's way harder to do as a long-term effect than a short-term burst, but... it would still be super useful and there's no good reason it hasn't been done since. Much like potions, which also fell out of the story after book two or three.
He did make it as an enchanted item, which is one of his specialties (he's a magic nerd, remember, and while his on the fly control is limited he's consistently shown to be very good at ritual stuff).
We have characters who turn into animals with very small brains compared to humans on a daily basis, and characters who have been turned into statues and been fine afterward. That statement in the RPG (also from Harry's PoV, which is often shown to be false or incomplete) runs rather contrary to what actually happens in the series.
Black Court have them perma-up, White Court are running on 1e Vamp costs instead (they burn through their blood real fast), Reds have increased cost to get them but otherwise work as 2e Vamp, I'd say.
Yeah, but to my knowledge Jim hasn't actually retconned that. I suspect the reason is it fits in the setting but not the genre of story he's telling for Harry, and thus he's quietly ignoring it.
Well, the strength thing didn't make him bulletproof, and it'd be plausible to say that it's way harder to do as a long-term effect than a short-term burst, but... it would still be super useful and there's no good reason it hasn't been done since. Much like potions, which also fell out of the story after book two or three.
He did make it as an enchanted item, which is one of his specialties (he's a magic nerd, remember, and while his on the fly control is limited he's consistently shown to be very good at ritual stuff).
Hmm, so I think the smartest thing to do would be to ignore it somewhat or make it a rare effect? Something you have to purchase as a unique spell or effect? Like, "I channel the inner wolf to get +1 to Strength" and...with potions, I'm not sure.
Also, apologies for endless edits, this is something I added on way late.
Edit: Back to the fuel source thing, at the very least it contradicts the fact that Dresden repeatedly says, "X has so much magical power/fuel that they can do spells I can't even try and barely break a sweat" which implies some sort of scale/continum, from weak to strong to Archive to Literally Just Plot Points So Powerful.
Edit 2: Also, thanks, that does make sense, the Black, Red, and White Court thing.
Hmm, so I think the smartest thing to do would be to ignore it somewhat or make it a rare effect? Something you have to purchase as a unique spell or effect? Like, "I channel the inner wolf to get +1 to Strength" and...with potions, I'm not sure.
I'd probably say, if you're doing the Mage route, you need to take Merits to unlock some of the Sphere capabilities, like Life boosting. Potions don't need special treatment, IMO. One-use Wonders.
Edit: Back to the fuel source thing, at the very least it contradicts the fact that Dresden repeatedly says, "X has so much magical power/fuel that they can do spells I can't even try and barely break a sweat" which implies some sort of scale/continum, from weak to strong to Archive to Literally Just Plot Points So Powerful.
If your difficulty rolls are, oh I dunno, (Arete + Sphere), something difficult to boost, then you'll want to burn Willpower regularly to perform effects, but you need to burn it less often as you get better. Harry can do simple magic utterly trivially, even towards the start of the series, it's just that as the series goes on what he doesn't need to spend effort on shrinks. Bullshit-powerful beings are running high Arete, high Sphere, and probably Autosux because lol fuck you I'm a faerie queen.
Tweak difficulty numbers as-needed to hit the right feel.
Yep. In fact, WoD Vamps are basically Black Court Vampires, only with some of those weaknesses actually turned on just by existing as opposed to the Faith making them work.
He made a special enchanted item and did the equivalent of a prolonged ritual casting where he poured in a shit ton of energy.
Oh, and when he used it he literally couldn't tell he was tired and almost killed himself and burned all the energy from it in like less then 5 minutes.
We have characters who turn into animals with very small brains compared to humans on a daily basis, and characters who have been turned into statues and been fine afterward. That statement in the RPG (also from Harry's PoV, which is often shown to be false or incomplete) runs rather contrary to what actually happens in the series.
Welcome to the flaw of having your RPG written by an IC source ICly (Namely, Billy with notes from Harry and Bob in the margins).
As for the fuel thing, if you're not looking to simulate PCs and balance, you don't even really need to use any kind of fuel at all.
Just have them be able to do their thing as much as you need them to.
Yep. In fact, WoD Vamps are basically Black Court Vampires, only with some of those weaknesses actually turned on just by existing as opposed to the Faith making them work.
He made a special enchanted item and did the equivalent of a prolonged ritual casting where he poured in a shit ton of energy.
Oh, and when he used it he literally couldn't tell he was tired and almost killed himself and burned all the energy from it in like less then 5 minutes.
Welcome to the flaw of having your RPG written by an IC source ICly (Namely, Billy with notes from Harry and Bob in the margins).
As for the fuel thing, if you're not looking to simulate PCs and balance, you don't even really need to use any kind of fuel at all.
Just have them be able to do their thing as much as you need them to.
Well, maybe, but how can you tell how much that is? And what their magic can do? It seems a bit too hand-wavey to just say, "That enemy Wizard is as powerful as--no, I don't have to tell you and you have to roll to use your magical powers but he doesn't because he just does."
I mean, I guess I could just create a magical system without fuel and just eyeball it or something, or create a list, like.
Level/Power of spells Liable to exhaust them: (List)
Spells that repeating more than 2-3 times exhausts them: (List)
Or something?
Also, if we do have rolls for magic, I definitely want to keep to the pure-magic thing. Like, one thing I like about WoD as opposed to Dresden (or rather a difference, that is) is the Arete vs. Magical Power difference. A Mage is powerful partially because they are excellent and have amazing Attributes, which allow them to roll their Rotes with more dice. A Wizard no doubt is smart and has a strong will and etc, but they don't *need* to be excellent.
And Changelings and other groups are moreso, since their basic magic doesn't use 'Sphere+Power-Stat' at all.
Unless you are running PC Wizards it does not matter.
Wizards will be running reskinned Contracts you draw from the Changelings books because Changeling is balanced around Changeling and Mage is balanced around Mage.
What you need to know about Wizards to run them in Changeling is the following:
Their energy stat is called "Magic" not "Glamour". They live longer than humans (by about a hundred years). They heal better (not faster) than humans; that is they recover Aggravated damage over time. They have a Morality trait represented by the Laws of Magic with "Kill No Humans" and "Don't Mess With Other People's Minds" being low ranking stuff (like 1 or 2 point Sins) so they will generally avoid doing that.
Other than that, reskin Contracts to suit the Wizard in the chronicle and go nuts.
Unless you are running PC Wizards it does not matter.
Wizards will be running reskinned Contracts you draw from the Changelings books because Changeling is balanced around Changeling and Mage is balanced around Mage.
What you need to know about Wizards to run them in Changeling is the following:
Their energy stat is called "Magic" not "Glamour". They live longer than humans (by about a hundred years). They heal better (not faster) than humans; that is they recover Aggravated damage over time. They have a Morality trait represented by the Laws of Magic with "Kill No Humans" and "Don't Mess With Other People's Minds" being low ranking stuff (like 1 or 2 point Sins) so they will generally avoid doing that.
Other than that, reskin Contracts to suit the Wizard in the chronicle and go nuts.
You have a point, though it'd be a Quest, not a chronicle. But...I'll think of something. You're right that I don't need to create a grand system/template or anything, per se.
I own everything that is Dresden Files that isn't comics and read the entire book series every year...
Ok, I also might not own everything related to the RPG they came out with. I know I own the first 2 books, and I heard they were doing some more, but I've been busy and haven't had anyone to play with, so they simply are not / haven't been a priority.
The new book's called Paranet Papers. It's got settings for Vegas, 1918 Russia, some Florida backwoods with the fountain of youth, and Red Court Territory post-changes. Plus some new stuff about Ways and casting.
But it could be done. Billy and the Werewolves again, can use partial shapeshifts to grant themselves some of the buffs of being as strong or fast as wolf form while still mostly human, and they're basically masters of abusing that one spell.
Billy, for the record, thinks that Harry conceptualizing his wereform as basically being really good at one spell is typical Magely shoehorning everything into their paradigm.
Which is why all the side stories can be interesting when Butcher actually writes from the perspective of anther character. Like, say, Thomas!
That was fun.
I wait. Then why is there anyone who can threaten them if they can beef themselves up to superhumans at a snap of their fingers and just haven't bothered doing so since book 2/3?
Doing stuff like that is one of the things that gets covered in Paranet Papers. The short version is that it's hard and gives you not!Paradox. In FATE terms, the recipient takes enough consequences to equal the cost of the powers they gain, because their body reacts badly to such dramatic alteration.
Billy, for the record, thinks that Harry conceptualizing his wereform as basically being really good at one spell is typical Magely shoehorning everything into their paradigm.
To be fair to Harry, he got that description from Bob. The fact that no one knows that, combined with never explicitly calling him on it (in anything that I've had the chance to read anyway), adds up to Harry taking it to be as Bob said it. After all, would you question the Hundreds of Years Old Spirit of Intellect and Darkness that can literally feel the shifting of magic?
Doing stuff like that is one of the things that gets covered in Paranet Papers. The short version is that it's hard and gives you not!Paradox. In FATE terms, the recipient takes enough consequences to equal the cost of the powers they gain, because their body reacts badly to such dramatic alteration.
To be fair to Harry, he got that description from Bob. The fact that no one knows that, combined with never explicitly calling him on it (in anything that I've had the chance to read anyway), adds up to Harry taking it to be as Bob said it. After all, would you question the Hundreds of Years Old Spirit of Intellect and Darkness that can literally feel the shifting of magic?
"Harry is a PHD. I went to night collage." - Thomas on Magic
"I cast Bear's Might!"
" *rolls dice* .... "
"I don't like that look.... "
That's an interesting thought. Like, for the idea or for transferring it over in general, what sort of dice are Wizards rolling? I mean, we don't see them regularly fail to do spells, but then we also mostly see them always trying to do spells they *know* they can do. Because belief matters.
I wait. Then why is there anyone who can threaten them if they can beef themselves up to superhumans at a snap of their fingers and just haven't bothered doing so since book 2/3?
I'm psyducking slightly right now because the limits I thought they had, they don't actually have. At all.
I mean, Dresden spends a lot of time talking about how the big weakness of Wizards is that they're pretty much squishy mortals, but if they can solve that with a single spell and get into Strength 7-8, then...what?
Harry for instance can only do it as a super effort intensive charged item because he's a Prime/Forces prodigy, and enchanting items is his thing, and as already stated, it's got enough holes to drive a truck through. He could temporarily lift a car, but it's really poor as an approach for him.
Most Wizards can't do personal enhancements at all, or it comes at a substantial tradeoff in skills(there's the multiple medical doctorate wizards mentioned in the Council meetings who probably could, but won't be doing fireballs and forcewalls) OR you're looking at a badass focused in that field(Injun Joe).
Just because Wizards could, does not mean that any Wizard could. Each kind of trick requires a certain personality and self image to pull off. Harry's wall of force? We only ever see the Merlin and Ebenezar manage that, because it requires immense stubbornness to actually turn magic power into a wall of pure force. Injun Joe's shapeshifting and spirit banishing powers are tied to his religious beliefs, etc. Most wizards, additionally, don't really have much in the way of persistent effects, even very experienced wizards use enchanted items for stuff like that. Why would Harry Dresden for instance, use months of work to make himself more bullet resistant and stronger when he can use that same work enchanting his shield bracelet and bulletproof longcoat?
They theoretically have the full list of effects available. But any given Wizard can use only a tiny fraction of them, and can learn a slightly larger fraction.
Black Court have them perma-up, White Court are running on 1e Vamp costs instead (they burn through their blood real fast), Reds have increased cost to get them but otherwise work as 2e Vamp, I'd say.
That's an interesting thought. Like, for the idea or for transferring it over in general, what sort of dice are Wizards rolling? I mean, we don't see them regularly fail to do spells, but then we also mostly see them always trying to do spells they *know* they can do. Because belief matters.
Truthfully... Fudge Dice or a big ass pile of D6s.
I'm actually serious on this one. Wizards can basically always work magical effects, so long as they aren't under running water or have thorn manacles on them. The only question is, how much it's going to drain them and how much oomph the effect will have.
So... Fate or Shadowrun seem the easiest 'choices'. I suspect oWoD dice could be a thing to, since difficulty was a scaling thing there.
Didn't Harry mentioned somewhere that enhancing themselves is far too inefficent for Wizards.
Like Harry can enhance himself to dent a car by punching it or he can throw that power to car directly and flip it over.
It's also hilariously expensive, and you have to rework the enchantments eventually regardless of what you put them on. Remember, Harry spent something like 3 years worth of pay from the Wardens building Little Chicago. It takes him 2 days, iirc, of none stop work to lay the enchantments on his duster. Where as it's referenced somewhere that some of his tools, like his force rings, require basically a full weekend's worth of work every fortnight or so.
Of course, why use force rings when you can carve the same enchantment into your staff 77 times and try to blow yourself up?
That was mentioned as a hazard regarding why he doesn't make artifacts that are even more powerful. Even the improved shield bracelet involves significant difficulties in containing and balancing the energy involved. If it's more than single use he needs to make it stable.
Truthfully... Fudge Dice or a big ass pile of D6s.
I'm actually serious on this one. Wizards can basically always work magical effects, so long as they aren't under running water or have thorn manacles on them. The only question is, how much it's going to drain them and how much oomph the effect will have.
So... Fate or Shadowrun seem the easiest 'choices'. I suspect oWoD dice could be a thing to, since difficulty was a scaling thing there.
Well, if you're doing it in NWOD, perhaps instead of having 'failure' and 'dramatic failure' effects, their powers have 'success at a cost' effects? Or they get the option to choose 'success at a cost' if they failed their roll?
Well, if you're doing it in NWOD, perhaps instead of having 'failure' and 'dramatic failure' effects, their powers have 'success at a cost' effects? Or they get the option to choose 'success at a cost' if they failed their roll?
If you were doing it that way that would make sense.
Make a roll, on a Daramatic Failure you get... well, Dramatic Failure. On a failure you lose X Mana and the effect goes off; if you don't have the Mana you get a Dramatic Failure. On a success you get the effect at no mana cost. On a Dramatic Success you get the effect plus bennies.
That's an interesting thought. Like, for the idea or for transferring it over in general, what sort of dice are Wizards rolling? I mean, we don't see them regularly fail to do spells, but then we also mostly see them always trying to do spells they *know* they can do. Because belief matters.
"Regular chance of failure" is a thing that shows up a lot in RPGs that doesn't really match their inspirations or chapter fictions. I wouldn't think too much on it besides game abstraction.
If you still want consequences for 'failure', you do what Shadowrun does and make what amounts to Feedback. So your roll isn't to make the spell go, it's to control the effect and / or channel the energy needed to make it happen.
Anyone remember what were areas of vampire sect control in Romania (VtM)? I don't know anyone who still has a copy of the old WoD world books, and if memory serves me correct it wasn't a totally under sabbat control. Can't remember if the contention was just between the mainline of the Tzimisce and the Old Clan faction or if the Camarilla had a foothold too. Any help would be appreciated.
