Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

[ninjafish]

I think... @torroar would actually kill us if we asked or more babies at this point. i can barely remember the gaggle of children we currently have without constantly consulting the holy log of first page and character sheets.


not to mention...Rolan prob got like a whole mini army of new squires with him.(his grandkids)

tho...im not gonna lie i would not be averse to having more ice kids (girls!) around. The ostland castle full of ice witches in the future is a funny idea.

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Torroar is the one who let so many kids get born in the first place!

He could have fudged the dice, or changed the parameters at anytime if he thought it was too much.

Since he didn't do any of that, I'm sure he can handle it.

 

[Marlin]

It's really not... ogres still tire out and aren't made of metal.

Also you know, steam tanks can be sold, they are a source of economic power to fund the development of more things, more fortifications and in general just making things better.


Tanks would make cavalry obsolete anywhere they go.

Also its not a decade... its like 5 years to finish development

A gun is a gun, and can be developed quickly, but the tank takes a few years so we should start now, so they might actually be useful before we are overrun by all the myriad threats.

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Steam tanks can be stolen. More easily if there are many of them around too, and Ostland doesn't care about who they sell the tanks to.

The cavalry is what is more in use right now. We'd gain more money from the heavy blastguns than the steamtanks, if we care about the safety of our steamtank tech.

For a tank to be superior to cavalry the tank would need to be capable of resisting a magic user, brute force, and flying opponents. The steam tanks are not going to come out immediately capable of that. Not with out more years of development!

 

[ninjafish]

Steam tanks can be stolen. More easily if there are many of them around too, and Ostland doesn't care about who they sell the tanks too.

The cavalry is what is more in use right now. We'd gain more money from the heavy blastguns than the steamtanks, if we care about the safety of our steamtank tech.

For a tank to be superior to cavalry the tank would need to be capable of resisting a magic user, brute force, and flying opponents. The steam tanks are not going to come out immediately capable of that. Not with out more years of development!

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It doesn't matter if the tech is safe if it doesn't do us any good.

Build the tanks and take a step forward in the future of war!

 

[me.me.here]

Our tech can be stolen. The Skaven are not the only faction in existence that can make use of steam tank tech. Then again saying the skaven wouldn't need or want to steal our steam tank tech is basically another way of saying the "Skaven acknowledge Ostland's steam tanks are not superior to Skaven Steamtanks".

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Steam tanks can be stolen. More easily if there are many of them around too, and Ostland doesn't care about who they sell the tanks to.

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This isn't a particularly useful argument, because if you replace all the references to tanks with references to any other tech we could develop all of these statements are still true.

We have no reason to believe that tanks are uniquely vulnerable to being stolen in a way that none of our other techs are. If anything, the fact that Steam Tanks are larger and more expensive (and thus fewer in number and harder to move) make the tech less likely to be stolen than something like cannon improvements.

Moreover, I'm actually having trouble understanding what you actually want, because your first few points were about aiming to pick the project or projects with the least utility (on the grounds of developing new options would allow those options be stolen and used by enemies) while your later posts claim that steam tanks have less utility than cannon upgrades and therefore we should grab the cannon upgrades.

If all you really want is just to not research steam tanks for some reason, there's nothing wrong with just saying that. Otherwise, AFACT your overall argument should lead to the conclusion that we should pick steam tanks because you think it'll take longer to develop and have less overall benefits (and therefore be less likely to be stolen and/or be of less use to our enemies when stolen) which is probably not the meaning you want to convey.

 

[REAPER35]

Ok, let's review last turn and look to the future.

The Bretonnians opened an embassy in the South, so they are talking to us which is good.

We have a new Reiksmarshal and Sword of Justice which has already proved its use.

Repairs start from skaven trouble, the skaven mess with thee sewer in Altdorf.

And of some importance to us. GREENSKINS in the sea of claws. Along with beasts. Not sure if they are from chaos or DE pets.

In Kislev the Dolgan join the Roppsman, Ungor, and Gospodars. And Kat expanded the cities so they have a place to live.

In Karaz Ankor babies and skaven/greenskin problems.

Moving on, fighting league expanded and extortion was uncovered in the merc office.

Now the turn proper. The army and navy expands.

Then we found out the DE are in Abilon. Economy expands, and we get some not spain immigrants.

More expanding economy, and construction finishes.

We researched some stuff. (@torroar you need to add 1 titan cannon to Army of Ostland from last turn).

We are building some temples, and helped Stirland. Which I think after all the help we have given them they should like us more than is reflected on the front page, but that's just me.

We started to look into our enemies, and found out that not all of Marienberg hates us.

And finally we upgraded our handgunners and did some soul-searching.

Now TO THE FUTURE!!! hem hack wheeze I really shouldn't yell like that.

Milatary 2 actions.

Tracking Beast-Paths: we can look for the secret paths the beastmen use and try to keep them out.

On Wings Of Canvas: We expand our small airforce.

Blastweave Upgrading: More accurate cannons.

Grenadiers?: adding them to the armies or just AoO?

Titan cannons?: adding the big guns to the armies?

Something else?: we get something else to choose from?

Personally, I'm thinking I'll probably go with Wings and Grenadiers. Ofcourse this could change later and I am not really sold on the grenadiers, soo...

Mercenary Office

Hire: I'd like to hire all the cavalry on offer to help guard the coastal plains.

Fire: What it says on the tin.

There is a lot that could change here. I've submitted 20 companies that may or may not be made canon. and may or may not be up for hire if they are. as it stands I'd like to add 2250 cavalry to our roster.

Navy 2 actions

Guarding Ships: Guarding our trade. meh

Scouts For Launching: Flying scouts. I like it.

Build Ships: There are four options here and we are finishing more docks this turn.I'm thinking another great ship.

Something else: New Ideas

I'm thinking scouts and a greatship.

Diplomacy 3 actions

Double Barreling: selling guns.

Grasping The Comet: a loan... yeaaah... No.

Approach The Jade College: From the last update I think we are losing this one.

Trying To Speak To Middenland: Talk to Gunther...

An Open Hand: Talk to Count Rommel.

Something else: whatever else that pops up

I'm thinking double barreling, and open hand, and hopefully something else, but we might get lucky with Gunther.

Stewardship 2 actions

Lumbering Heat: Charcoal

The Lighthouse Of Salkalten, Foundation: We start to build a lighthouse.

Apple next?: We planted the elf apple, now we (might) have new things to do with them.

Something Else: something new.

I'm thinking the lighthouse and lumbering heat. Less forests make us safer.

Research 2 actions

Off-Roading: mountain bikes

Heavy Blastguns: larger shotguns.

Vaporcyclers: motorcycles

Vapor Tanks: Tanks

Imperial Organs, Big: what's better than a cannon? A cannon with more barrels.

The Other Two Cannon Types: Better cannons

Something else: you have see this before.

I'm thinking Tanks and the other two cannons. that will give us 5 turns before we can argue about it again.

Piety 1 action

Seek Out Myrmidian Artistic Priests: Priest hunting

Something else: it's here too.

one action and only one choice to really spend it on.

Intrigue 1 action.

Into The Wolf Den: Spy on gunther

Something else: yes

Anything that is not poking Gunther again. trying to talk to him... fine. spying on him and probably getting caught? No thanks.

Personal 2 actions

Gold Journeymen: add wizards to the army.

Something else: yep

2 actions and one real choice.

And let's not forget, the beastmen are up to something, there is a WAAAGH to the south, there is a DE black ark in Albion, the greenskins have entered the sea of claws, Something drove the Dolgan into Kislev, the skaven are still being a problem, the norse are awefully quiet, the vampires are planning something, and several families in Marienberg are plotting against us... so you know it's just another tuesday in WH:F.

 

[Marlin]

This isn't a particularly useful argument, because if you replace all the references to tanks with references to any other tech we could develop all of these statements are still true.

We have no reason to believe that tanks are uniquely vulnerable to being stolen in a way that none of our other techs are. If anything, the fact that Steam Tanks are larger and more expensive (and thus fewer in number and harder to move) make the tech less likely to be stolen than something like cannon improvements.

Moreover, I'm actually having trouble understanding what you actually want, because your first few points were about aiming to pick the project or projects with the least utility (on the grounds of developing new options would allow those options be stolen and used by enemies) while your later posts claim that steam tanks have less utility than cannon upgrades and therefore we should grab the cannon upgrades.

If all you really want is just to not research steam tanks for some reason, there's nothing wrong with just saying that. Otherwise, AFACT your overall argument should lead to the conclusion that we should pick steam tanks because you think it'll take longer to develop and have less overall benefits (and therefore be less likely to be stolen and/or be of less use to our enemies when stolen) which is probably not the meaning you want to convey.

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Yeah, I'm not great at arguments. My goal for the tech theft was to go for the techs with the least utility when compared with a steam tank in order to delay making the steam tank tech mainstream.

You actually are wrong about "if you replace all the references to tanks with references to any other tech we could develop, all of these statements are still true." I'm gonna sound like a hypocrite for this, but the statement is right in that technically any tech Ostland has can be stolen. The statement is wrong, as "any non-steam tank tech is not as valuable as the steam tank tech". The steam tech may bring a great advantage to Ostland's armies, and maybe that the tech can be stolen because it would be valued by other people.

By creating other less overwhelming techs, stuff that isn't as significant as a steam tank, Ostland generates advances of lesser significance to those who would choose to steal the tech from the Engineering College.

On the steam tanks being hard to steal (yeah, I'm not a decent enough writer to come out of this part without trying to decry a steamtank)-
Steam Tanks can be stolen by Skaven, they apparently stole some in the canon. Canon has there being less than 20 steam tanks in existence. A mainstream production line of steam tanks means a production line of steam tanks. Ostland has a history of selling their tech to others, inside a few decades Freddy became known as the Count of cannons, for just how many guns and cannons he gave to the world. Because the steam tanks are "obviously/ not obviously" viewed as a needed weapon of the empire, production on the steam tanks, when we eventually get there in five turns, or however long it takes. Would increase the amount of available Steam Tanks to as many as we can for the safety of the empire, which can mean selling to outside the empire, instead of securely inside the empire. What's a good number for the safety of the empire? 1000 steam tanks?

The actual tech theft argument I think I was trying to say was "are the steam tanks strategically important assets we should care about if stolen?" If the answer is yes, then we should avoid taking the steam tank for a while to protect their tech path until we feel more secure in our personal security. If the answer is no, then this does mean the steam tanks are not important enough to go chasing their tech compared to other options that take less years than 5 to complete.

I was up against someone who kept bringing up the need for the steam tank because Ostland is under threat and the personal viewpoint that steam tank reproduction is our strongest option to truly make a major difference! To destabilize that argument the theft part got brought in.

The tech theft argument is not great, as the tech theft argument can be rewritten as "Any tech of Ostland can be stolen, so it doesn't matter what we research, let's go after what can give us the most benefit. Why should we care if people steal our tech? Our superior tech will beat those thieves."

 

[Mopman43]

I... really don't feel any concern over Steam Tanks getting stolen? Skaven and the Chaos Dwarfs already have similar or better, and I don't think most other destruction factions could or would use them.

Like, Orcs and Beastmen obviously couldn't use them. Most Vampires have never struck me as interested in guns or steam engines. Luthor Harkon is thousands of miles away. Dark Elves have never made use of gunpowder or steam engines- they seem the sort to look down on the inventions of men and Dwarfs.

 

[ninjafish]

I... really don't feel any concern over Steam Tanks getting stolen? Skaven and the Chaos Dwarfs already have similar or better, and I don't think most other destruction factions could or would use them.

Like, Orcs and Beastmen obviously couldn't use them. Most Vampires have never struck me as interested in guns or steam engines. Luthor Harkon is thousands of miles away. Dark Elves have never made use of gunpowder or steam engines- they seem the sort to look down on the inventions of men and Dwarfs.

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First off the are not steam tanks, they are vapor tanks.

Second, we are gonna run the dark elves over with them and see how they enjoy having to look up at our inventions, as our inventions crush the life from their awful slaving selves.

 

[Zrayz10]

First off the are not steam tanks, they are vapor tanks.

Second, we are gonna run the dark elves over with them and see how they enjoy having to look up at our inventions, as our inventions crush the life from their awful slaving selves.

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Ok but vapor tanks are not that maneuverable so in mountainous terrain or forests where beastmen are they'd be useless. Also beastmen have magic. Unless the tank has anti-magic runes on it one well places doom bolt and KABLAM!

 

[QuarkDS9]

Personally I'd like to get the vapor cycles and the heavy blast guns first. The idea of shotgun heavy motorcycle cavalry just appeals to me. Also the fact that cavalry is the one section of warfare we are still deficient in and this aids in that.

 

[Qeqre]

If nothing else, tanks are a known factor in the Empire. People understand that tanks work, that they work well enough to be worth a pretty penny and that they don't want their neighbouring province to have more tanks than them if there isn't a strong Emperor on the throne.

Not sure if many people would be able to afford them at first either, and we might need to clarify that they are actually for sale, but people know the value of tanks.

Also prestige considerations.

Ok but vapor tanks are not that maneuverable so in mountainous terrain or forests where beastmen are they'd be useless. Also beastmen have magic. Unless the tank has anti-magic runes on it one well places doom bolt and KABLAM!

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In Tabletop, Wizards and Priests get dispel dice to cancel out enemy magic. And a bray shaman that's casting doom bolts to take out our metal boxes isn't casting an AoE to mutate the soldiers and horses into Chaos Spawn.

And while tanks probably aren't going to be useful in forest patrols or fighting atop steep slopes where the terrain is untamed and the supply lines are long, it's a different story for deforested farmlands around the larger settlements and escorting merchant caravans on the roads(and possibly in properly roaded/terraced parts of the mountains).
Also useful near the coast or in the Southern parts of the Empire.

 

[Bear Templar]

I wonder, when we gain the ability to build steam/vapor tanks will we build each vapor tank in the same way we build a greatship (i.e. dedicated action... probably dedicated research action) and will they have a special upkeep cost.


I want to do vapor cycles first so that we have created a combat capable vapor engine first. Although I wonder if a vapor powered ship (thinking of a small wooden rivership, rather than a ironclad ship) would make more sense as a prototype vehicle, on the other hand the dwarfs might not be happy if we start to make an equivalent to their steam ships.

... Huh apparently China had muscle powered paddle ships, hm thinking about it cycles and vapor cycles might serve as a good starting point for paddle ships. (I am also imagining what would it be like for a ship to be powered by ogre muscles, we wouldn't be able to have that many)

In non-military research, could we start developing vapor powered pumps and other tools. Anna had the designs for a tractor correct? I semi-expect Anna will make a vapor tractor

Maybe make a vapor carriage... I'm thinking that it might work better than horses for pulling a titan cannon, be simpler to develop (and useful research for) the Vapor Tank (on that note I wonder if Oxen might be better for pulling a titan cannon than horses), edit: I'm thinking that it will be simpler since in this case the carriage would only be designed to pull rather than charge or fire its own weapons

Hm, grenadiers, I do feel it would make more sense for them to carry a bayonetted rifle than just a sword (basically becoming a elite form of handgunner, not sure if our guns have the right sort of lock for this but we have figured out bayonets). Maybe they will also become connected to sapper groups in our armies. Equally mounted grenadiers might be useful (or flying ones looking at wing suits, on the other hand might be too heavy... they will need a proper weapon at some point), and grenadiers on ships would be quite nasty

Finally, perhaps make the equivalent of a Hellhammer... thinking about it I wonder if this would work well with a paddle ships instead of a war galley or wolf ship. I am partly thinking of Hellhammers as the start of an anti-black ark ship.

 

[Interesting]

Since the dark elves on Albion are essentially a rumor at this point. (We heard they were there from talking with the locals) I expect there will be at least one action in either the intrigue and/or naval actions about that.

 

[Restalaan]

TBF, there was the whole story of Skaven stealing tanks from the Nuln engineering college for a chance to study it.

Skaven's aren't really particular, and more so when it comes to tech. They'll shamelessly steal and copy it even if they already have something equivalent if only to truly understand the worth of those techs. So yes, we do kind of want to safeguard our tech.

That and it's a tank, having an enemy steal one of our assets is still gonna hurt and I would like it if they don't get it in the first place.

 

[mmgaballah]

TBF, there was the whole story of Skaven stealing tanks from the Nuln engineering college for a chance to study it.

Skaven's aren't really particular, and more so when it comes to tech. They'll shamelessly steal and copy it even if they already have something equivalent if only to truly understand the worth of those techs. So yes, we do kind of want to safeguard our tech.

That and it's a tank, having an enemy steal one of our assets is still gonna hurt and I would like it if they don't get it in the first place.

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I am not seeing much of an issue if the Skaven try and steal one of our steam tanks , seeing as they have already reversed engineered one and have been making their own bootleg versions for who knows how long , so the damage has already been done we are just evening out the playing field . also I don't remember ever hearing about skaven steam tanks ever being a thing in there army list , which can be explained by the fact that skaven go beyond the pale when it comes to not sharing or passing down knowledge and secrets , so them losing the knowledge to make there steam tanks by the time cannon rolls around makes sense in fact this exact thing happened to clan Moulder were they lost the original recipe for creating rat ogres though the managed to retain a sizable breeding population of them

 

[henkalv]

I'm having visions of the vaporcycles exploding if the rider goes too fast, it just seems like goblin engineering out of world of warcraft.

On the note of industrial espionage, I don't think the solution there is "don't invent things" but rather to make an effort to improve the security at the engineering school. We have made an effort on the social security side, but I think the dwarves would know a thing or two about ensuring physical security of the workshop against skaven infiltrators. Anyone who really wants to are going to be able to get their hands on a tank since we are presumably going to be selling the things, but we can keep the plans safe if we make an effort.

One school of magic I would be in favour of approaching for our coastal defence would be Azyr. Lots of benefits there, for one being able to flick lightning at ships seems like something that should be effective, but more than that being able to predict the future would be handy both to predict raids and to predict what the weather will be like. Lastly them being able to affect the weather might be a handy way to rile up the Sea of Claws if we expect there to be raiders coming.

 

[Zrayz10]

I am not seeing much of an issue if the Skaven try and steal one of our steam tanks , seeing as they have already reversed engineered one and have been making their own bootleg versions for who knows how long , so the damage has already been done we are just evening out the playing field . also I don't remember ever hearing about skaven steam tanks ever being a thing in there army list , which can be explained by the fact that skaven go beyond the pale when it comes to not sharing or passing down knowledge and secrets , so them losing the knowledge to make there steam tanks by the time cannon rolls around makes sense in fact this exact thing happened to clan Moulder were they lost the original recipe for creating rat ogres though the managed to retain a sizable breeding population of them

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Why would the Skaven waste their time stealing our tanks? They already have some of their own.

 

[ninjafish]

Ok but vapor tanks are not that maneuverable so in mountainous terrain or forests where beastmen are they'd be useless. Also beastmen have magic. Unless the tank has anti-magic runes on it one well places doom bolt and KABLAM!

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We have wizards nao, to counteract beastmen shenanigans.

Also just make the tanks able to shove the trees over.

 

[ninjafish]

Since the dark elves on Albion are essentially a rumor at this point. (We heard they were there from talking with the locals) I expect there will be at least one action in either the intrigue and/or naval actions about that.

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they aren't a rumor though.

We have confirmation from a chieftain of a black arc being there. a chieftain who we rescued from a dark elf ship.

We can say the Druuchi are there with certainty.

 

[Interesting]

they aren't a rumor though.

We have confirmation from a chieftain of a black arc being there. a chieftain who we rescued from a dark elf ship.

We can say the Druuchi are there with certainty.

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We know that the black arc was there not that it is still there.
I agree it is almost certainly still there now, but how long that will stay true is a open question. The leader of the black arc will probably hear the Empire rumor that there is a black arc in his location. They may then hear about the high elf response forming. If the high elf force is known about the black arc may try to slip away in the mists. This is incredibly cowardly and unlikely, but one of the dark elves tactics is not taking bad fights. The black arc will probably instead try to ambush the fleet at a place of its choosing instead, so mapping the coast of Albion to try and find the location of that ambush is important.

 

[Bear Templar]

Our navy probably can't do much against a Black Ark... at this point in time at least.


Main factors it should have a decent sized escort, some spell casters, who knows how many monsters, and doesn't it have some sort of mist to make it harder to target? We would also need to be concerned about other raiding groups in the oceans (even if our settlements are safe it would be nasty for say trade and fishing)

On the other hand, if the high elves get involved, or for that matter a major part of the kislev navy (mostly thinking of ice mages potentially being on ships), that would help.

What we can probably do is harass the smaller ships and maybe make it unprofitable to stay in the area



Oh, and a realisation our Titan Cannon are probably a bit smaller than the Hellhammer's cannon so less powerful. On the other hand easier to make a wargalley equipped to use it (also more ammo, easier to load, that sort of thing).

 

[NCRTrooper]

Our navy probably can't do much against a Black Ark... at this point in time at least.


Main factors it should have a decent sized escort, some spell casters, who knows how many monsters, and doesn't it have some sort of mist to make it harder to target? We would also need to be concerned about other raiding groups in the oceans (even if our settlements are safe it would be nasty for say trade and fishing)

On the other hand, if the high elves get involved, or for that matter a major part of the kislev navy (mostly thinking of ice mages potentially being on ships), that would help.

What we can probably do is harass the smaller ships and maybe make it unprofitable to stay in the area



Oh, and a realisation our Titan Cannon are probably a bit smaller than the Hellhammer's cannon so less powerful. On the other hand easier to make a wargalley equipped to use it (also more ammo, easier to load, that sort of thing).

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We should be looking into phasing out the wargalley as soon as we can, not introduce more variants of it, mostly because it's not very good

I'd prefer to create an entirely new ship design entirely. These ships would be based off of the captured Druchii ships we acquired during the Albion expedition. These ships, whose primary purpose would be patrol/reconnaissance, would effectively replace the wargalleys, which should be phased out as soon as our navy is big enough to afford it.

I don't know what these ships should be called, but I've taking a liking to the term "Falcon Ships" for them.

 

[Tasoli]

We should be looking into phasing out the wargalley as soon as we can, not introduce more variants of it, mostly because it's not very good

I'd prefer to create an entirely new ship design entirely. These ships would be based off of the captured Druchii ships we acquired during the Albion expedition. These ships, whose primary purpose would be patrol/reconnaissance, would effectively replace the wargalleys, which should be phased out as soon as our navy is big enough to afford it.

I don't know what these ships should be called, but I've taking a liking to the term "Falcon Ships" for them.

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Pretty much this. Mostly because despite what someone from Empire might protest, I think Empire's fleet is outdated. Compared to all of its peers it is probably only stroner than Kislev and even Marienburg is ahead of them. A general update might be the thing to do to counteract that.

 

[NCRTrooper]

Pretty much this. Mostly because despite what someone from Empire might protest, I think Empire's fleet is outdated. Compared to all of its peers it is probably only stroner than Kislev and even Marienburg is ahead of them. A general update might be the thing to do to counteract that.

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There's nothing to suggest that the Empire's navy is obsolete compared to its peers. Bretonnia hasn't modernized its navy in this quest, and Nordland's navy alone is comparable to Kislev's navy in terms of numbers

Ostland's navy is also the only one that has cannons on all of its ships, so the Imperial Navy is more advanced than its peers in some aspects.

 

[Tasoli]

There's nothing to suggest that the Empire's navy is obsolete compared to its peers. Bretonnia hasn't modernized its navy in this quest, and Nordland's navy is comparable to Kislev's navy in terms of numbers

Ostland's navy is also the only one that has cannons on all of its ships, so the Imperial Navy is more advanced than its peers in some aspects.

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In canon I should have said.