[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
Real bruh moment
Real bruh moment
The Second Reconstruction-A Post-Civil War Kaiserreich USA Quest
- Thread starter Jeeshadow
- Start date
Fezzes
Knight of King Stannis Baratheon
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Yeeeeah I'm changing tack too. This is off. I should've seen it sooner.
I remind the unconvinced that MacArthur is the man who launched a bold assault on his own initiative, meant to go right up to the North Korean border with China, with very little reconaissance and an assumption that there were about 100K Chinese troops at the border and only half would cross south. He then got routed by the 300K PVA soldiers who had already crossed the border and prepared a trap which he blundered straight into. He's a general of middling competence and peerless ego. Even Ike thought he was absolutely insufferable, which says a lot considering who else he'd worked with.
[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
I remind the unconvinced that MacArthur is the man who launched a bold assault on his own initiative, meant to go right up to the North Korean border with China, with very little reconaissance and an assumption that there were about 100K Chinese troops at the border and only half would cross south. He then got routed by the 300K PVA soldiers who had already crossed the border and prepared a trap which he blundered straight into. He's a general of middling competence and peerless ego. Even Ike thought he was absolutely insufferable, which says a lot considering who else he'd worked with.
[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
- Location
- New York
[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
- Location
- NY
[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
I am a damn lemming
I am a damn lemming
- Location
- Pennslyvania
- Pronouns
- She/They
[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
So…
We now know that resistance to US government in CSA-influenced/controlled areas is of a greater, more organized nature than initially projected and the reports of desertions or failures to report may well be more serious and damaging in our ability to respond than ultra aggressive blowhard Maccattacc (now with no real combat experience!) is claiming. The odds of us facing a serious or even humiliating defeat by rushing the enemy are thus significantly higher than projected, and the odds of us attaining a crushing victory, or a victory with an acceptable loss of military material, are significantly lower. In the short term, we still have plenty of room to rapidly mobilize and deploy to theatre military force faster than the opposition and set up a proper campaign while sorting out our problems.
…
[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
We now know that resistance to US government in CSA-influenced/controlled areas is of a greater, more organized nature than initially projected and the reports of desertions or failures to report may well be more serious and damaging in our ability to respond than ultra aggressive blowhard Maccattacc (now with no real combat experience!) is claiming. The odds of us facing a serious or even humiliating defeat by rushing the enemy are thus significantly higher than projected, and the odds of us attaining a crushing victory, or a victory with an acceptable loss of military material, are significantly lower. In the short term, we still have plenty of room to rapidly mobilize and deploy to theatre military force faster than the opposition and set up a proper campaign while sorting out our problems.
…
[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
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- Location
- New York
I would like to open the Civil War with a solid Federal victory and not another Battle of Bull Run. Previous reports have underestimated the amount of hostile manpower and MacArthur is merely treating the desertion problem as "a growing issue of concern" than as a crisis. While a McClellan style of overestimating the strength of the enemy is not a good thing, it is more likely that the Federal reports are underestimating the enemy.
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Honestly my first thought when reading the options was that they sorta presumes nobody else will get the bright idea of having a go at Washington D.C should a defector/anybody bring them news that it is largely undefended, and if his ego drives MacArthur to lead things personally it would be all to easy for MacArthur in victory* when he learns that the capital is being marched upon to be driven by his ego to enter a mindset of doing whatever it takes to save the nation even if that involves abandoning the capital to do so.
Meanwhile Eisenhower is in charge of a remnant of the Illinois national guard a force MacArthur would leave to secure his rear, and Eisenhower is somebody who would do a leaping dive to save the capital if his country asked it of him, which if it results in Kentucky being lost would likely cut the forces under command of MacArthur off from the government. This probably isn't an untenable position for Eisenhower as player actions have resulted in Texas siding with the Union, and that in theory gives us access to loads of manpower to break any hypothetical siege, but troops send North are troops not helping Texas take the fight to traitors.
Furthermore not wanting the United States to be a smoldering ruin, and likely giving MacArthur a long leash to go whac-a-mole with
*Look do you think the CSA wouldn't trade Chicago for the capital in a heartbeat given the legitimacy it would give to their movement/revolution?
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[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
Changing vote in light of new information.
Changing vote in light of new information.
- Location
- USA
I don't think moving on DC is viable for the CSA or AUS right now. Aside from internal issues, an attack from the AUS has to cross the James River, a major natural obstacle, and as you get closer to DC from the Southern direction, frontage rapidly shrinks as the Blue Ridge Mountains hem in an attacker, along with a series of smaller rivers in parallel on the way to Washington. From the directions of the CSA, one would have to cross the Appalachian Mountains which would be difficult even against token resistance.
Oh.
Oh dear.
Everyone. Both offensive options are traps, with the Northern offensive having better odds of success simply because it does not send our disorganized and deserting troops to the guerilla nightmare that is the Deep South.
Dougie Mac's murderboner can wait until we figure out what our troop disposition actually is. Abort, abort, abort.
[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
The Army has been planing for this possibility for a while now that's why they are giving us the options they are. McArthur is Chief of Staff at the moment which means he had to have gotten the rest of the Joint Chiefs to sign of on both of the plans he put on our desk. If we decide to wait then that gives our enemies and the defectors that have joined then time to actually organize forces that could put up real resistance to a full military movement. We have the best organized forces at the moment and the CSA is divided and weak. We strike now and they will be unable to link up their Territory and if they just hold some cites then they lose. The Navy is Not MacArthur's yet they have signed on to the operational plan that calls for the strike on New Orleans.
We also really don't want to have the border states who are fully loyal stuck between the CSA on one side and the AUS on the other.
The operation to land troops at Inchon and thus cut the North Koreans of was something that all the Allies in the U.N force that MacArthur was overall commander agree to. And it worked because the North Korean army fell apart and where out of things for most of the rest of the war. Continuing towards the border with China later even when their was Intelligence that the Chinese were moving troops and not Consolidating his forces was a mistake I will give you that.
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- Location
- The Colored Room
- Pronouns
- TheOne
I'm reading everything, but the emotions behind the decisions are relevant here.
Many posters have made good points for why attacking the CSA would be a sound strategic decision. I'm not denying that.
But the hostility is both premature (the CSA will have more problems if they're simply left to struggle at this point in time, that can change at any moment, but it's not true now) and unwarranted (Long is literally in league with the Klan and Dixiecrats...it would be nice if everyone was more gung-ho about pushing South).
I don't think that's being unreasonable.
I'm just reading the room, if it doesn't apply to you specifically then I apologize. But when the vote is overwhelmingly in one direction, that carries implications about what the players are concerned and moved by. It is what it is.
Fair point, and right in many ways. But by putting our weight and authority behind what is otherwise a disorganized ad hoc response clarifies what little ambiguity is left in the situation. That ambiguity allows moderates to do what they do best, which is deescalate to whatever degree is possible. ]
But strictly speaking about what happens militarily, you should not trust your army in a time of crisis like this. Militia armies are terrible at taking and holding territory beyond their locality. But defected army regulars on the other hand, especially with officers following suit, are more than capable of taking and holding territory in the way that the CSA would need to organize a true war effort.
There's been no word on Smedley Butler, as far as I can remember. That either means that he's yet to choose a side or that @Jeeshadow just hasn't mentioned him yet.
Ceasefires are possible between various factions in Kaiserreich, if we sufficiently show a lack of appetite for conflict with the Syndicates, a rapprochement may be possible. But that takes the administration having deniability in the reprisals against the Socialists. That takes not feeding the fire. And it takes giving everyone that was pressured into declaring for the Detroit Commune some room to maneuver.
An act of Federal aggression establishes the battle lines and there will be no room for diplomacy at that point.
But strictly speaking about what happens militarily, you should not trust your army in a time of crisis like this. Militia armies are terrible at taking and holding territory beyond their locality. But defected army regulars on the other hand, especially with officers following suit, are more than capable of taking and holding territory in the way that the CSA would need to organize a true war effort.
There's been no word on Smedley Butler, as far as I can remember. That either means that he's yet to choose a side or that @Jeeshadow just hasn't mentioned him yet.
Ceasefires are possible between various factions in Kaiserreich, if we sufficiently show a lack of appetite for conflict with the Syndicates, a rapprochement may be possible. But that takes the administration having deniability in the reprisals against the Socialists. That takes not feeding the fire. And it takes giving everyone that was pressured into declaring for the Detroit Commune some room to maneuver.
An act of Federal aggression establishes the battle lines and there will be no room for diplomacy at that point.
The Longists have the apparatus of the state at their disposal, and they likewise have broad cultural and institutional backing in the South. They are an effective parallel government to Washington with all the organizational and authoritative benefits that comes with that level of sophistication.
To the degree the Socialists have any of that, it's mostly in the cities and even still every bit of that authority has to be fought for, every inch they take they have to bleed for.
In the South, federal armories and personnel were seized across the region simultaneously. Reed had to fight for just Detroit before any other cities would answer the call.
There is no symmetry in the level of threats here. The CSA already has its hands full just attempting to establish itself, even in states where they had formal political control.
It's entirely conceivable that the Longists could push for the Capital on the same timeframe that we're pushing for Chicago.
They're not the same because they're not operating on the same level, at all.
In the north, if the CSA doesn't have the means to take it, by default it belongs to us. That's railways, that's people, that's farmland.
To deny them means, all that has to be done is to deny them the legitimacy they'd gain by having to defend their territories (which are full of people who're likely of dubious loyalty so long as the CSA is on the offense).
For the south, the inverse is true, as the localities, the people, they all default to the Longists.
The same means of coercion available to us are available to them. They can conscript soldiers, they can seize goods (bureaucratically, not just through direct force of arms), they can conduct trade with the outside world and have access to currency that the rest of the world recognizes.
They are dangerous because they are a counter-government to the Federalists. The Socialists are nowhere near being that, not yet. If they establish themselves, then they'll be so, but that has to happen first. And that process will be longer if they're left alone. For the time being.
To the degree the Socialists have any of that, it's mostly in the cities and even still every bit of that authority has to be fought for, every inch they take they have to bleed for.
In the South, federal armories and personnel were seized across the region simultaneously. Reed had to fight for just Detroit before any other cities would answer the call.
There is no symmetry in the level of threats here. The CSA already has its hands full just attempting to establish itself, even in states where they had formal political control.
It's entirely conceivable that the Longists could push for the Capital on the same timeframe that we're pushing for Chicago.
They're not the same because they're not operating on the same level, at all.
In the north, if the CSA doesn't have the means to take it, by default it belongs to us. That's railways, that's people, that's farmland.
To deny them means, all that has to be done is to deny them the legitimacy they'd gain by having to defend their territories (which are full of people who're likely of dubious loyalty so long as the CSA is on the offense).
For the south, the inverse is true, as the localities, the people, they all default to the Longists.
The same means of coercion available to us are available to them. They can conscript soldiers, they can seize goods (bureaucratically, not just through direct force of arms), they can conduct trade with the outside world and have access to currency that the rest of the world recognizes.
They are dangerous because they are a counter-government to the Federalists. The Socialists are nowhere near being that, not yet. If they establish themselves, then they'll be so, but that has to happen first. And that process will be longer if they're left alone. For the time being.
I should hope not.
Well in the spirit of fairness.
I think that move would backfire. It will make the CSA stronger if it goes badly, and even if it goes well it leaves the Federalists exposed to the Longists.
While I don't lose sleep over the CSA getting buffed, I don't think it's worth allowing the Longists to cover more ground in the process.
They're the true enemy, as I see it. So it's a shame to waste time on a faction that isn't yet resolved to a total conflict, in actuality.
Reed has declared for a revolution, the coalition he speaks for is of more mixed opinions. I think that's something that can be worked with, if we avoid taking aggressive actions against people that have less and less reason to fight the further the war goes on without Federal reprisals against them.
Morale is going to be shit with nothing real to rally around. Yes, Olson can't communicate much to the parts of the country under Socialist control, but an army marching toward them says everything. It says they need to arm up and fall in line. Silence on the other hand, silence will be bad for morale, good for overtures for peace.
Allowing an enemy to second guess themselves is a good opportunity, and it won't happen again once things have really ratcheted up.
I think that move would backfire. It will make the CSA stronger if it goes badly, and even if it goes well it leaves the Federalists exposed to the Longists.
While I don't lose sleep over the CSA getting buffed, I don't think it's worth allowing the Longists to cover more ground in the process.
They're the true enemy, as I see it. So it's a shame to waste time on a faction that isn't yet resolved to a total conflict, in actuality.
Reed has declared for a revolution, the coalition he speaks for is of more mixed opinions. I think that's something that can be worked with, if we avoid taking aggressive actions against people that have less and less reason to fight the further the war goes on without Federal reprisals against them.
Morale is going to be shit with nothing real to rally around. Yes, Olson can't communicate much to the parts of the country under Socialist control, but an army marching toward them says everything. It says they need to arm up and fall in line. Silence on the other hand, silence will be bad for morale, good for overtures for peace.
Allowing an enemy to second guess themselves is a good opportunity, and it won't happen again once things have really ratcheted up.
Look, I'm howling at the moon here.
I'd be less ornery if I found this quest at the beginning. By the time I found it and caught up, Olson was already POTUS and I had to work with that.
I'm for the Socialists. That doesn't mean I'm going to try and sabotage the Federalists, especially not when Long is on the map and Canadians are across the border.* It means trying to force a third path between defeat and victory.
Hopefully, we can get a ceasefire and put off a direct fight until much later and hopefully that fight never comes because the two factions reintegrate.
I don't want to turn Chicago into Guernica, sue me.
I absolutely think they wouldn't.
They're socialists, a gun in the hand is worth a thousand symbols of legitimacy. They don't need the capital. Only the means to take it and everything else.
Symbols have very little power unto themselves.
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[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
Fair enough I'm probably overthinking things, but the lack of a centralized command structure means that if somebody on opposition is given an opportunity all they need to do is take it for it to end poorly for the union, and any war plan things are based upon likely presumed a large chunk of the military wouldn't become traitors, which means there is likely to be vulnerabilities that in theory should be absent.
They're Americans launching a second American Revolution, and you don't think the city whose location was selected by the general who led the revolutionary army through the American Revolution alongside being named after George Washington isn't meaningful to those fighting for their ideals? Like they're going to be in for a brutal civil war from their pov, and they'll need all they can get to harden their supporters resolve to see things through to the end.
Frankly even if it was a meaningless symbol the cold calculus from the massive loss of legitimacy for the only remotely palatable alternative for their supporters by itself is a pretty strong reason for them to do it
[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
- Location
- somewhere on this dying planet
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] To dig in around Washington and wait for the full mobilization of Federal Forces
Vote closed
- Location
- The Colored Room
- Pronouns
- TheOne
I'm not saying they would pass it up, I'm saying they wouldn't trade Chicago in for DC. Chicago has its own significance to their cause, and it's both much more recent and much more relevant to their movement.
Chicago is like Philadelphia mixed with Lexington & Concord.
It's the birthplace of the revolution and the place where its first shots were fired. (Haymarket Massacre)
DC is a big deal, don't get me wrong. But it's a different kind of significance.