Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]

I might continue to update this if I have time, but for now I'm mostly making this list to figure out what dots are the best to buy for our purposes.
Let me preface this by saying, I applaud all the time and effort it must've taken to compile this whole log. 👍

That said, I feel like I need to point out that the obstacles we've encountered until now (and in turn, all the actions and rolls we needed to get past them) are not going to be reflective of those in the future. In fact, I know that if I was the QM, I'd definitely be going out of my way to make the obstacles different, precisely to keep things interesting so we wouldn't be able to just repeat a successful plan from before, as that would be boring.

Not to mention, our capacity to use Write-Ins and Stunts also allows us to change to an extent which stat combo we use to tackle a particular problem.

The default approach to closing the rift back during the Saaya episode may have been Stamina + Occult + Illusion - but if the proposed voteplan to try and directly close the rift had actually won instead of the one to just fight the demons, it would have used Charisma + Integrity + Empathy instead. Because it was stunted back then to take an approach using those stats, in order to maximize the dice pool (and was confirmed it would have used those stats if it won).

In theory (and I stress "theory"), if one were to assume that we players were both innovative enough and had enough leeway from the QM that our write-ins or stunts could potentially allow any stat combo to be used when attempting things, our "best buy" would always be to buy another dot in our highest-ranked stat in one of the 3 stat categories (Attribute, Ability or Skill), choosing whichever of the 3 category top-rankers are the cheapest to buy another dot in.

As this is what would be needed to increase our theoretical "absolute maximum best-case" dice pool.

Right now, our best stats are Charisma for Attributes, tied Integrity and Presence for Abilities and Telekinesis for Psionic Skills. So the absolute best stat combination we could ever use would be Charisma + Integrity or Presence + TK, giving us 9 dice. There's no way to get more than this, without pumping up either Charisma, Integrity, Presence or Telekinesis. So one of those 4 would be our "best buy" and the cheapest would be Integrity or Presence, since the training time is only 2 weeks vs 3 weeks for TK and 4 months for Charisma (disregarding that "2 weeks" for Integrity will stretch longer in practice due to limited daily training hours).

Of course, it is highly unlikely we'd be able to somehow stunt every action ever to use the highest stats in each category (though the odds can be increased if we make sure our highest stat for a category is something versatile, that can be used for many situations, like Illusion) and was not the rationale behind why we chose to level Integrity.

We just need Integrity, because it turns out simply using Psionics and SOS stat boosts (and now Overgrowth) can cause damage to the mind/soul even without external forces trying to mind crush Amu and the former sees frequent usage, thereby making Integrity too crucial not to beef up.

So far, it's the only identifiable exception of its kind confirmed to be that heavily used.

The only other stat I think -might- be anywhere near as crucial may be Dreamwalking. From what these recent chapters indicate, without ranks in Dreamwalking, traversing through cognitive areas (at least ones like this filled with fog) will quickly incapacitate people. Depending on how much of the quest takes place in "Dreamlands" and whether adjacent dimensions like Road of Stars/Sea of Souls and Makai/wherever demons come from and the Wyld from Exalted are treated similarly to Dreamlands, we might need those Dreamwalking levels just to walk around places without collapsing. Ontop of that, we basically got given confirmation that any mind healing that would require regrowing cognitive matter (and/or "soul surgery") will require Dreamwalking, as Illusion cannot make the stuff by itself.

Of course, that's still a big "might" contingent on how often we come across those places or need to perform soul surgery.
 
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reflective of those in the future
Yeah, but keeping a running tally is still good for remembering historic challenges (I'll edit in the Stunt thing later on, thanks!)
Because we can't predict the future, and because training takes so much in-story time, I don't think we can really avoid training to fight last year's war lmao.

potentially allow any stat combo to be used when attempting things
Remember Baughn's post about us not being able to use Bureaucracy to close the Rift? At the very least, I think there are patterns to valid stat combos that we can figure out with enough effort (and as always, narrative consequences of stat combos are a thing).

For example, I don't see Wits being any less significant in the future (I doubt we will stop playing by the seat of our pants anytime soon),
Socialise matters given Amu's strengths is her bonds unless you want 3 dot Clairvoyance and Medicine helps when things go south; and Occult only shows up (so far) on really important moments?

...Empathy is also coming up fairly often huh, and Utau isn't around often enough for us to be able to leave it to her?



(NGL Teleportation, Astral Projection, Clairvoyance & Precog is quite annoying in a good way in that it requires really long term planning to get up to the tactically/strategically significant levels - 1 dot isn't exactly useless, but we need it at that at least point before crash buying will actually solve any of our potential problems lmao)
 
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Because we can't predict the future, and because training takes so much in-story time, I don't think we can really avoid training to fight last year's war lmao.
The stupid thing is, we actually currently have Dreamwalking training going on, we started it before this little escapade. And that second dot would have been perfect for this nightmare jaunt...... but it just hadn't arrived yet. 😒
For example, I don't see Wits being any less significant in the future (I doubt we will stop playing by the seat of our pants anytime soon),
Socialise matters given Amu's strengths is her bonds unless you want 3 dot Clairvoyance and Medicine helps when things go south; and Occult only shows up (so far) on really important moments?
Wits is what gets used when someone doesn't have pre-existing information about a situation. In theory, if you had good enough Precognition (or maybe Post-Cognition/Clairvoyance) you wouldn't really need Wits, at least assuming something wasn't immediately screwing over Precog/Clairvoyance so badly that it jacked up the difficulty of an action beyond just using low-level Wits (or worse, causes the action to auto-fail entirely).

I will clarify, I'm not suggesting we should rely on Precognition or Clairvoyance for all our information needs. But between a choice of spending 2 months training Wits versus spending 2 weeks training Precog or Clairvoyance.... well.....

I must admit, I remain skeptical about how much of a priority Socialize is. Amu is still not a Wildcard, she's not confirmed to have Social Links that she needs to go out of her way to build up. It's not a defensive stat either, if she needed to defend against a social attack she's using Integrity for that. Socialize is mainly for persuasion and as much as certain people wouldn't like the idea of it.... she does have "alternate means" of persuading people than talking.
...Empathy is also coming up fairly often huh, and Utau isn't around often enough for us to be able to leave it to her?
At least Amu already has 2 dots in it, that's as good or better than any of her other Psionic Skills bar Telekinesis. Not exactly bad at it.
 
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immediately screwing over Precog/Clairvoyance
Yeah, but *gestures in the general direction of Megaten's everything* we'd need 4 dots to not get blindsided if we over rely on it?
(Also, I have my doubts about us doing well enough to have enough of an idea about what's going on in the end of the world to not need Wits?)

But between a choice of spending 2 months training Wits versus spending 2 weeks training Precog or Clairvoyance.... well.....
Yeah, agreed. My main reasoning for Attribute training is that it can be used in a arbitrary set of dice pool combinations, and I don't care if we slow roll it so long as it ends before the end of the year, and also because it likely can overlap with anything/probably be passively trained with XP input if we get into enough Shenanigans. (Wits + Socialise or Lore?)

I remain skeptical about how much of a priority Socialize is
Manipulate + Socialise comes up fairly often*, unless @Baughn 3-dot Clairvoyance can substitute for Socialise we are out of luck here?
(We need more social options than spilling our spaghetti [productively, because Amu], stonewall, lawyering up and the nuclear option that is UMI, especially given the Publicity Bane?)
 
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(Also, I have my doubts about us doing well enough to have enough of an idea about what's going on in the end of the world to not need Wits?)
My view is, if we are seriously relying on a dice roll involving Wits of all stats to stave off the end of the world, we've put ourselves in some seriously deep shit.
(We need more social options than spilling our spaghetti [productively, because Amu], stonewall, lawyering up and the nuclear option that is UMI, especially given the Publicity Bane?)
Eh, stonewalling works for politicians. Feel like it would work just as well for Amu.

UMI is just one of Amu's alternate means. The other is good old fashioned brute force. The physical kind. Maybe aided by Telekinesis, but nobody's going to find out of if it's channeled through her fist.*

And then a third is money. Illusion is an amazing skill.

* This doesn't necessarily entail directly beating up the person she's trying to persuade, I hypothesize intimidation could also be done using a roll of Appearance + Presence + Telekinesis by having her frown heavily, grab a steel bar, bend it over itself, shove it in front of her victim and go: "Look, you see this? This is why you want to do what I say."
 
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But Utau doesn't have Astral Projection? (Though you could argue that Utau's Charas don't fit into the normal mold, Utau still has Chara Change/Transform as a capability)
Utau doesn't have Astral Projection, no. That doesn't mean her charas don't.

Mind saying what was this about? Couldn't quite figure it out from the Chapter 2.7 update by myself
That was a roll of Dexterity + Integrity + Telekinesis. Amu is really bad at fine control, apparently!

Also shows how much flying is a default mode of transport for her.

3-dot Clairvoyance can substitute for Socialise
That would require a really strange situation, and chances are you'd come off as the creepy child who somehow knows things you shouldn't. Empathy or Mind Control are better choices.
 
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That would require a really strange situation, and chances are you'd come off as the creepy child who somehow knows things you shouldn't. Empathy or Mind Control are better choices.
Or.... you know....

<Amu>: *Bends steel bar* Hey, you think this looks a bit like your face?
<Amu>: *Frowns* ....No? *Twists some more* How about now? Still no good?
<Amu>: ....So anyway, I was about to make a very important suggestion that you really ought to listen to.
<Amu>: Because. You know. *Hold up mangled steel bar* There's always time for this thing to look like your face.
<Amu>: ....What? I am totally into metallic sculpting. Miki's been giving me lessons.
 
Or.... you know....

<Amu>: *Bends steel bar* Hey, you think this looks a bit like your face?
<Amu>: *Frowns* ....No? *Twists some more* How about now? Still no good?
<Amu>: ....So anyway, I was about to make a very important suggestion that you really ought to listen to.
<Amu>: Because. You know. *Hold up mangled steel bar* There's always time for this thing to look like your face.
<Amu>: ....What? I am totally into metallic sculpting. Miki's been giving me lessons.
This makes enemies. Not friends. Not allies. If we try this approach with anyone who is not already an enemy, they will become one. This is the kind of thing that will get us hunted down and arrested by JP's.

We need to be able to handle ourselves in social situations like a normal, non-homicidal human being. We need to be able to accomplish our social objectives while handling ourselves like a normal, non-homicidal human being. Stonewalling doesn't get things done. Bribery and intimidation are very situational tools. We need actual social skills.
 
This makes enemies. Not friends. Not allies. If we try this approach with anyone who is not already an enemy, they will become one. This is the kind of thing that will get us hunted down and arrested by JP's.

We need to be able to handle ourselves in social situations like a normal, non-homicidal human being. We need to be able to accomplish our social objectives while handling ourselves like a normal, non-homicidal human being. Stonewalling doesn't get things done. Bribery and intimidation are very situational tools. We need actual social skills.
For most things that a normal non-homicidal human being would require of another person, a fat stack of cash typically does the job. That's not really situational, that's just how goods and services are usually purchased. Even non-criminal lawsuits can typically be made to disappear with a big enough settlement.

On the other hand, trying to befriend someone with the specific aim of getting them to do what you want is usually considered manipulative behavior. You're not really friends if you're only trying to get them to do something. At best, you would be allies of convenience to be discarded the moment you are no longer convenient to one another. There's something to be said about Wildcards trying to collect Social Links like they are trading cards, even if Amu were a Wildcard. But in this case, she isn't even confirmed to be one, so it's a moot point anyway - no real big objective to pursue here.

Her social objectives are basically limited to the relatively small-time goal of making friends at school and she arguably doesn't need Socialize for that. Her reputation is going to precede her at this point, what with having been seen fighting demons. Seiichiro won't be the only one coming to her for autographs anymore.

That same fame is also probably going to make her enemies, but ironically those are also the sorts of people against whom intimidation would work very well. Being that those same people know she can and already has crushed demon skulls by brute force before.
 
Eh, stonewalling works for politicians. Feel like it would work just as well for Amu.
That's a nice theory, but there the Socialize stat seems to leak over to the fluff. Well due to that Amu seems to have even failed at stonewalling, being so poor at it she couldn't even achieve that.

I'd theorize that similarly the threaten attempt could also thus fail just because she's so bad at Social that others might outmaneuver her so bad there that she loses a realistic basis for threatening and instead would end up just looking like she's bullying or even worse like a kid acting up.


We've already had social rolls also come up several times, not for friend interactions, but just so succeed in getting things done at all.


So I'm kind of overall dubious on your fairly mechanistic point of view on the matter. They seem like good reasons in theory, but in practise we've been hit over the head numerous times already and had the very course of the quest altered because she failed that hard at Socialize. Anything that can change the course of the quest out of ones control is I think at least something one needs to consider a little.
 
That's a nice theory, but there the Socialize stat seems to leak over to the fluff. Well due to that Amu seems to have even failed at stonewalling, being so poor at it she couldn't even achieve that.
If you're referring to Amu failing to keep her mother from prying, that wasn't actually a failure of her stonewalling.

We could've voted for it. IIRC, someone even proposed a vote that entailed burning Willpower to zip lips and refuse to tell her mother squat.

In the end, the winning vote ended up being to spill everything.

The initial attempt that preceded that wasn't for stonewalling either, just telling her mother what was essentially "trust me bro", which would've worked if Amu's mother was more like canon Midori and not freaked-by-demons-plus-publicity-bane-equals-sudden-character growth Midori. Sadly, she didn't trust Amu, so we had to make a choice and the vote to stonewall wasn't the one that won.

If it did, it probably would have worked at the cost of making Midori more worried.

Before you argue that maybe such an extreme all-or-nothing choice could have been avoided if we had levels in Socialize and good dice to send into a contested roll against her...... I remind you that such a course of action would've basically amounted to trying to force the "trust me bro" salesman pitch onto her, against her obvious misgivings and lack of trust.

It would have been using Socialize to either downplay the risk or artificially engender trust where she was basically correct not to trust Amu, or both. The exact kind of manipulative behavior I referred to it being used for.

Not the best example to sell the benefits of Socialize.
 
IIRC, someone even proposed a vote that entailed burning Willpower to zip lips and refuse to tell her mother squat.
Something like that was proposed, though if I recall it was also noted that she'd end up using all her willpower and still lose by Baughn. Which is a thing then that can happen I guess.

And while the Midori thing does come to mind a bit in this for me, it's for different reasons then you reason it with. In my opinion the real reason it failed was because Amu was completely incapable of keeping any kind of secret on risks on the matter in any shape or form. Midori got so worried about it, because Amu just kept leaking details inadvertently through out the discussion.

And I think it's quite likely that she would do so against others as well. If some one made a preposterous accusation against her, her reaction would give her away on whether it was an accurate guess or not. The reality is that Amu is so far I can tell currently completely incapable of keeping a straight face and not even leaking the most basic of details if pressed by questions. Even if she doesn't answer, her very expressions are probably readable enough to get some idea on it at current.


As such I think Amu at current would really struggle against adults in any kind of social interaction. Whether to get something done, or to keep something secret. And in a sense this isn't surprising I guess, most kids can have some difficulty with that, where regardless of what they think, the parents all to often have some of it figured out. In Amu's case I suspect she's just perhaps even less good in some ways with it as she's been leaning on her psychic skills to compensate. Thus why she ended up even struggling reading facial expressions.
 
The reason she slipped is because it turned out that going "trust me bro" requires Manipulate + Socialize to make it work (and she didn't pass the roll). In hindsight, there was a hint a roll would happen, since this was also what happened when we tried to hand Saaya off to Tsumugu too. That roll passed, but nobody expected it would even need a Socialize roll to actually get him to agree.

After all, you'd tend to think that if there was anybody in the world who would implicitly trust Amu when she says "trust me", it would be her own parents.

Nope. Apparently nobody, not even her own parents, actually trusts Amu enough to take her at her immediate word without triggering a Socialize roll.

But now that we know it doesn't work, we also know that all we have to do to not trigger a Socialize roll is to just not appeal to trust. We can automatically assume that people just won't do favors for Amu, unless they already have a vested interest in it or Amu presents them direct incentive to do it. If they don't have any existing interest, Amu will be forced to try and roll Socialize to get them invested in it. And in alot of scenarios, that's kind of a manipulative thing to do. Not always, but alot, or at least to my (admittedly maybe limited) imagination it seems an awful lot.
 
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I gotta say, it's weird how you're simultaneously trying to claim the moral high ground and advocating for us to approach social situations with threats and bribery.

Consider someone like Hotsuin, or Fumi, or Mitsuru. You think we can pay off or threaten someone like that? Hell no. We need to interact with them using social skills.

Consider someone like Naoto. You think she'll be cowed by threats? You think she'd take a bribe? If we were older, she'd arrest us for trying. She might arrest us anyway.

Consider our classmates. Makoto's got some kind of Plan brewing. Let's say we decide it's a bad idea. How are we going to convince her to change her mind? Are we going to threaten to murder her? Are we going to hand her a stack of cash? No. We'll need social skills.

I suspect you've misunderstood what Socialize is somewhere
What do you imagine it getting used for?
You've consistently tried to present Socialize as something evil. That's not what Socialize is.

Socialize represents a character's understanding of people's feelings, motives, and interactions. Socialize can be used for cynical manipulation, but that's not what Socialize is about. It's about understanding people. It's the knowledge needed to make good decisions in social interactions. When you think before you speak, that's Socialize.

I've mentioned that Socialize can't be used to make social attacks. This is for similar reasons to why you can't use War to make physical attacks. Rather than an ability you use to say things, Socialize is what you'd use to understand the effects of what you say. For example, Socialize would have let Miki realize the consequences of offering to die in Amu's place.

There's nothing evil about understanding people. There's nothing bad about realizing that offering to die will terrify your mother instead of comfort her.

Now, Socialize's role often gets usurped by player control. Instead of characters using Socialize to make decisions, players make decisions. This is like how you don't roll Wits+War to figure out which enemy your character should punch first. But players don't have perfectly granular control over their characters' behavior, and we have even less control in this quest than we'd have in an actual game of Exalted. Social decisions below the level of player control get made by the characters. Amu and Miki screwed up with Mom because they're garbage at Socialize.
 
Empathy/Mind Control substituting for Socialise is good to know, but looking at the recent Psionic Ethics discussion it's not quite something we want to encourage too badly? (And also, Mental Blockers are everywhere, and having a baseline to interpret behaviour off even if Empathy doesn't work well is good - see Amu being unable to interpret Midori's behaviour under restraints, and Hotsuin has muted emotions which makes Empathy less usable on him?)

not trigger a Socialize roll is to just not appeal to trust
As for Socialise and Trust, if your argument were true we'd have needed a Socialise roll for Amu persuading Utau to let her do her thing earlier?
I agree that more aggressive posturings can be feasible under the right circumstances - might be able to have Charisma + Socialise or Presence + Socialise for convincing people to Trust Me Bro with respect to Psionic Capabilities (right, @Baughn?).

The Midori situation was arguably made more difficult by her being a parent that cares and that knows Amu fairly well (which is a good thing!), while the Tsumugu situation is going to be more difficult if it were someone else (though Presence might help with that instead and not carry too many narrative drawbacks, depending on approach).

You're not really friends if you're only trying to get them to do something.
Well, I don't think you are wrong, but "only" is carrying a lot of weight here; we may want to have them change their minds for perfectly good reasons from time to time, or simply want their help for something at times (ex: Literally Now).
We do not know the rest of our friend group well at all and will have a harder time maintaining relations despite drifting apart (Nadeshiko, to give an example), Socialise is the textbook definition of getting around that IMO; and if we want to know our classmates better we have a fairly stacked situation to work against, especially if later on Amu gets control over her passive aura.

More generally, we are talking about Social situations where we are not facing enemies (or enemies we can literally or metaphorically bludgeon), and how our existing toolset can easily be insufficient in such scenarios?
For example, if the Press gets their hands on Amu and aren't inclined negatively (or even neutrally) to her we are probably toast - stonewalling can be spun as uncaringness trivially, lawyering up just leaves them free to write whatever they want up to Japan's Libel Laws, and anything she says can be spun into anything else unless Amu has had warning to guard against this beforehand.

If you ask me, I'd say she's the exact opposite of stoic... and this is why she succeeded in her canon storyline.
Socialise can also be interpreted as Culture Knowledge, which in this case allows Amu to keep her strengths while mitigating the drawbacks of what she does, by learning how to tailor what she says to her understanding of them (Empathy is great, but it doesn't work on considering the long-term impacts of her words on the other party), or understanding that speaking further is a bad idea and coming to terms with that (or setting up for settling this over the longer term) so it doesn't show through her everything?

TLDR: We don't want Socialise just for small letter manipulation, but more for discretion and cultural knowledge, and also the ability to set up social encounters through more difficult circumstances if needed.



As such I think Amu at current would really struggle against adults in any kind of social interaction.
Yeah, though if we want to make a difference the best way we can we need to link up with larger organisations eventually (if only to appraise them of our capabilities while we do our own thing, so they can call us in if things go FUBAR), and guess what that entails?

For example, if we have Teleportation & Clairvoyance 3 we could probably serve to significantly speed up the Quick Response Team for D-Events, but the trust, respect, and logistical/bureaucratic awareness required to be allowed in such a position does not grow on trees right?



As for why I think social matters that much, I do not believe we can out-supercombatant Megaten, so that leaves training a group of people as best we can while manuevuring into a better position when things start going down. But if we want to train them, we need to be friends with them and involve them with the things we get up to for XP, and that absolutely requires Social?

If we had to train Social + Wits for like half an hour a day I would be perfectly fine with that - it shouldn't meaningfully affect the time when other dots come online in terms of Arcs, and I think the narrative benefits are more than enough to justify it?
 
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I gotta say, it's weird how you're simultaneously trying to claim the moral high ground and advocating for us to approach social situations with threats and bribery.

Consider someone like Hotsuin, or Fumi, or Mitsuru. You think we can pay off or threaten someone like that? Hell no. We need to interact with them using social skills.

Consider someone like Naoto. You think she'll be cowed by threats? You think she'd take a bribe? If we were older, she'd arrest us for trying. She might arrest us anyway.

Consider our classmates. Makoto's got some kind of Plan brewing. Let's say we decide it's a bad idea. How are we going to convince her to change her mind? Are we going to threaten to murder her? Are we going to hand her a stack of cash? No. We'll need social skills.
Socialize represents a character's understanding of people's feelings, motives, and interactions. Socialize can be used for cynical manipulation, but that's not what Socialize is about. It's about understanding people. It's the knowledge needed to make good decisions in social interactions. When you think before you speak, that's Socialize.
Let me make it clear - my qualms with Socialize are akin to how certain people had personal qualms against Saeki being consulted to help Amu convince her mother. They just didn't feel comfortable with the idea. It had nothing to do with any moral high ground.

I similarly don't feel comfortable having Amu using Socialize to manipulate people like a Lelouch-like chessmaster. Nothing to do with moral high ground, just a matter of what I don't feel comfortable with.

You say it's not necessarily going to be used for that, but let's take a look at 80% of the people you've listed:

Hotsuin, Fumi, Mitsuru, Naoto.

For what reason do you think Amu would ever be interacting with them? Under what circumstances do you believe Amu would be speaking to these people in the first place? To simply "understand" and make friends with them, for the sake of nothing more than having an understanding with them and hanging around?

Hell, no.

These are not the sorts of people a 13-year old middle schooler would ordinarily randomly hang out with, or want to hang around with. If a cop caught Hotsuin offering a car ride to Amu alone, they would have questions. Amu normally would have no reason to ever be speaking with them. She only met them because of screwed up circumstances, the same circumstances which now means we want favors and information from them. That we want to use them as a resource and persuade them to do things our way.

Her relationship with them is inherently transactional.

And if that is the case, threats may not work, but bribery probably would if you offered something other than money. The opportunity for Kanno to research Amu and her Charas would probably be of interest to the woman. Intel on Manticore for Mitsuru and Naoto. Hotsuin might do a small favor if Amu did a small favor for himself or Lulu in return (I maintain that man is unlikely to be swayed even with levels in Socialize).

Same deal with TV reporters.

Befriending Makoto and other schoolmates is the only kind of interaction I can see where Socialize is not going to be used with an ulterior motive, but genuinely due to Amu wanting to "understand" and make friends. And as mentioned, I am skeptical she needs it just for that, especially when it's been indicated her class are likely just as bad at her in it.

And again, with the Midori example, Amu and Miki were trying to persuade her to do things their way irrespective of the fact that "their way" was "meet with a gang of psychic serial killers alone, fearing that they may have gotten in trouble with armed men". I repeat, not a good example of Socialize being used in a non-manipulative manner.

Don't use that as an example if you're trying to convince me we're going to be running into lots of situations where Socialize is going to be helpful when used in a non-manipulative manner.
As for why I think social matters that much, I do not believe we can out-supercombatant Megaten, so that leaves training a group of people as best we can while manuevuring into a better position when things start going down. But if we want to train them, we need to be friends with them and involve them with the things we get up to for XP, and that absolutely requires Social?
....That just requires us and them having a common enemy, not being friends.

In this example, we intend to train up this hypothetical group of people as a strike team, not some group of pals we plan to play mahjong with. They are meant to be used as weapons. It would be disingenuous to present ourselves as friends, when in truth, the relationship is meant to be highly transactional.

Offering our own services and contribution to the common cause would probably be enough to be accepted in this scenario. That's bribery too, just not in money but in superpowered services.
 
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And if that is the case, threats may not work, but bribery probably would if you offered something other than money.
By most people's definitions, using this sort of thing to bypass Socialise is even more manipulative though? (Optics as always vary on the fine details, to be fair)

I am skeptical she needs it just for that
We have a fairly big bridge we need to work through if we want to get anywhere - the class is mildly scared of Amu, and also resentful of her being good at anything without putting in effort, or simply being impossible to compete with. I don't see Amu being good enough to figure out how to navigate this bridge by herself without Socialize? (Granted, Makoto's Plan exists, but otherwise I think it's a fair point?)
Her class being bad at it can easily means that someone needs to learn if they want to get somewhere, and said someone may be Amu?

Also, her flat out having drifted away from the Guardians is something I think she may want to rectify, but she has to find a way to make regular social interactions again, and I believe that sort of thing could be narratively assisted by Socialise (since 18 year olds face these problems all day long)?
And hoo boy Nadeshiko is gonna potentially be a minefield and a half (Empathy helps, but Empathy doesn't help you with figuring out the long term impact of your words on the other party because you'd have long since left)?

More pertinently, you haven't addressed the point of Socialise being usable for persuading people to go against what would otherwise be terrible ideas in a sensitive manner (without bullrushing past it using Charisma/Presence), or the point of Socialise allowing Amu to be aware of the wider culture of her society (this is admittedly not confirmed, but I think it makes sense - the reactions of people are often framed by the society they are in). Thoughts?

screwed up circumstances
(Agreed, but these circumstances are not exactly going to get less common - it might be good to learn the toolset others may deploy against Amu in a more low stakes manner of Midori teaching her than the hard way?)



In this example, we intend to train up this hypothetical group of people as a strike team, not some group of pals we plan to play mahjong with.
Hm, Persona as a setting and the concept of Battle Buddies seem to point towards it at least being possible (although I will concede that the latter half will not automatically happen without effort); and in-story the Guardians/Utau serve as a example of both at the same time being possible?

Offering our own services and contribution to the common cause would probably be enough to be accepted in this scenario.
Fair enough, that makes sense; that leaking from OOC to IC would probably be bad.
 
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More pertinently, you haven't addressed the point of Socialise being usable for persuading people to go against what would otherwise be terrible ideas in a sensitive manner (without bullrushing past it using Charisma/Presence), or the point of Socialise allowing Amu to be aware of the wider culture of her society (this is admittedly not confirmed, but I think it makes sense - the reactions of people are often framed by the society they are in). Thoughts?
Yes, I have something to say about that too - @Quine brought up that example when talking about Makoto, of whom befriending might otherwise have been a non-manipulative use of Socialize:
Consider our classmates. Makoto's got some kind of Plan brewing. Let's say we decide it's a bad idea. How are we going to convince her to change her mind? Are we going to threaten to murder her? Are we going to hand her a stack of cash? No. We'll need social skills.
Trying to use Socialize in this manner would essentially be Amu (or us) trying to force our own conceptions of what constitutes a "good" or "bad" idea onto other people.

Fact of the matter is, whether an idea really is all that terrible, is hard to say without the benefit of hindsight from the outcome.

The idea of Amu heading to the Scavenger's house alone when there was the possibility of armed men there? Very legitimate argument that it was a bad idea. From Amu's perspective, it's a good idea because taking other people along would expose the Scavenger's secrets to them - but that only matters to Amu and the Scavengers. To someone like Midori who doesn't care about the Scavengers, just Amu, it is not a legitimate reason and would not suddenly make the idea so much better.

Could you really say Midori believing it was a bad idea was wrong and warranted the use of Socialize to change her mind?

The Makoto example is basically the reverse, we have someone thinking their idea is "good", now we want to try and make them think it's "bad". But are we really sure it's a "bad" idea?

Let's say Makoto's idea is to organize a psychic youth gang and become demon-hunting vigilantes. This seems like a terrible idea on the surface and puts people in danger, but if it turns out half of her class already had similar ideas in mind, blocking the attempt could just lead to a whole bunch of her classmates doing the same thing independently instead of under an organization with some semblance of leadership and central oversight.

Fact is, we don't actually know whether it would be that "bad", only take a guess.

In the end, whether Amu changing someone's mind is done in a sensitive manner with Socialize or forcefully using UMI or threats or bribery, we're still just trying to enforce our own perspectives onto them. The only difference is whether we are still pretending their opinion matters when we're doing it.
 
I similarly don't feel comfortable having Amu using Socialize to manipulate people like a Lelouch-like chessmaster. Nothing to do with moral high ground, just a matter of what I don't feel comfortable with.
I really wonder how you developed this bizarre view of social skills.

Her relationship with them is inherently transactional.
Do you think transactional relationships don't involve social skills?

Having something to offer doesn't get you out of needing social skills. That's like expecting a sword to get you out of needing Melee. You still need to understand what the other party values. You need to understand how they'll react to an offer. You need to understand what they're willing or reluctant to give. You need to avoid saying things that undermine your own bargaining position.

It's not as simple as "make offer -> transaction complete".

Trying to use Socialize in this manner would essentially be Amu (or us) trying to force our own conceptions of what constitutes a "good" or "bad" idea onto other people.
No! It means understanding what Makoto is thinking. It means presenting an argument that will show Makoto that her plan doesn't effectively support what she values, and/or finding a mutually agreeable alternative. It means doing so in a way where the conversation stays civil and friendly, without tempers getting heated, so Makoto is still ready to listen.

Social skills are not the great evil you keep trying to present them as.
 
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Do you think transactional relationships don't involve social skills?
Using Socialize in that manner tends to be manipulative, because it turns it from a wholly transactional relationship (that everyone understands is a business relationship) into one that blurs the lines.

That's one way of approaching things. Trying to get "friend discounts" out of people during your deals is a legitimate approach. You might be comfortable with it. I'm not so much into that.

If you're just trying to gather information on what people might value for a deal, that doesn't requires Socialize skills. It might be one way of gathering info, but it's not the only one.
No! It means understanding what Makoto is thinking. It means presenting an argument that will show Makoto that her plan doesn't effectively support what she values, and/or finding a mutually agreeable alternative.

Social skills are not the great evil you keep trying to present them as.
If we are initiating an action to convince someone to do X rather than Y, we the players have made up our minds to block or pursue a certain course of action and are trying to force that course of action by getting the target change their decisions to be line with ours. That is the case whether we are using Socialize or UMI or threats or bribery.

If we were actually leaving it open for someone to make up their own mind, we wouldn't be initiating the action in the first place.

In this case, you further make the assumptions that her plan might not support what Makoto truly values and that she would reject an alternative if we didn't have the Socialize stat to force it through. Neither of those are guaranteed to be the case.

Especially if the former was false - that Makoto did make the plans based on her values, which happen to conflict with ours - our use of Socialize to dissuade her would be particularly forceful and egregious. Like Lelouch trying to persuade Suzaku it would be impossible to change Brittania from within and so abandon his plan to do so, despite Suzaku's belief in the possibility.
 
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So I was digging up the Exalted 2E Core Book for definition to make sure we weren't misinterpreting things, and here's the transcribed version:
Socialize is the capacity to both to understand the feelings and motives of others and to negotiate the complex network of customs, manners and etiquette in every culture (which seems especially difficult in a Japan setting for most of us players OOC).

Mechanically, it's used in the rulebook for
1) The manipulative actions you mention (but the examples given usually require >=3 dots, which is the level of a seasoned adult in Shards Canon, and Socialise cannot be used for Social Attacks)
2) Getting your allies to help you (Manipulation + Socialise), with the caveat that your allies remain their own person and will stop remaining so if not treated well
3) Perception + Socialise instead of Perception + Investigation for figuring out a character's motivation to check for deception (which is not quite covered by Empathy)
4) Essentially, Social Concealment, which can be used for surprise Social Attacks (however, see point 1)

Hm... that is indeed not a great look most of the time, but I do think Concealment isn't inherently problematic - remaining non-judgmental while you have your own opinions internally is the very definition of Concealment, and I believe you also agree that is a good thing?

Current discussion feels like several incompatible interpretations/worldviews colliding here, and I'm not sure how to have a productive conversation anyway (not enough Socialise dots for this :V)



blocking the attempt could just lead to a whole bunch of her classmates doing the same thing independently instead of under an organization with some semblance of leadership and central oversight.
Isn't that sort of considerations the decision us players have to think through before we decide, with the outcome after deciding partially dependent on Socialise?

The only difference is whether we are still pretending their opinion matters when we're doing it.
1) Taking that to the logical conclusion that would mean any attempts to change another person's mind is bad (is that what you intended to say?), and
2) You seem to be missing that how we do so (if successful) also affects the longer term outcomes?
3) Sensitivity to such matters would potentially allow Amu to allow herself to be persuaded in the other direction (example: Midori) unless we directly vote otherwise? (Social is not a 0 sum game)

I get where you are coming from, but the definition/standpoint you seem to have chosen is so strict as to be functionally useless - the problems you mention will remain even if we have 0 dots of Socialise, it's just Amu will fall flat on her face more often that way?



Using Socialize in that manner tends to be manipulative, because it turns it from a wholly transactional relationship (that everyone understands is a business relationship) into one that blurs the lines.
Quine is saying that you can't even set up transactional relationships that don't drop in your lap without Socialize (the rulebook seems to support this interpretation), if I'm not getting it wrong? Because getting to the starting line can actually be very difficult depending on what your targets are and all.
Charisma, Presence, Performance all don't map to transactional relationships, and Manipulation is exactly what you are saying is the problem (unless your concerns is more boundary-based than anything else)?

Like Lelouch trying to persuade Suzaku it would be impossible to change Brittania from within and so abandon his plan to do so, despite Suzaku's belief in the possibility.
By that logic constructing (good-faith) arguments would also be verboten even without any dice rolls? (It is arguable whether Lelouch was arguing here in good faith, or whether he had enough information to reach a good decision, but that is something else entirely)

If we were actually leaving it open for someone to make up their own mind, we wouldn't be initiating the action in the first place.
Taken to an extreme that means we shouldn't ever question another's decision or play a part in it (at least, without being invited to do so; which Makoto is likely to do).

I take you did not mean that extreme, so are there suitable scenarios in your mind where initiating such actions would be acceptable?
 
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Isn't that sort of considerations the decision us players have to think through before we decide, with the outcome after deciding partially dependent on Socialise?
It is.

The problem is, we players don't have a crystal ball, only OOC knowledge that may or may not be applicable given the crossover nature and merged lores. So we could easily turn out to be wrong about our predictions. OOC knowledge would've pegged Hotsuin as something of a Darwinist psychopath, but because Lulu is his cousin here and had some effect on his mentality, that may no longer apply here.

What we decide may not necessarily end up being a good idea and trying to force what we think is a good idea onto someone else may end up being a mistake, is the point.
1) Taking that to the logical conclusion that would mean any attempts to change another person's mind is bad (is that what you intended to say?), and
2) You seem to be missing that how we do so (if successful) also affects the longer term outcomes?
Oh no, I accept that we can probably get some very useful outcomes by getting people to do what we want with Socialize and that Socialize can also minimize the fallout or cost as opposed to other methods we can use. I absolutely don't dispute the potential gains.

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Feels manipulative and worse to me than if we were to use a bribe or bargain with them purely as a matter of business (or threaten an enemy that we weren't on good terms to begin with).

I fully accept other people may not see it as manipulative or share the same qualms, or simply consider the potential gains to be more worthwhile when stacked against a minor bit of manipulation. It's not an invalid way of thinking. This is just purely a voting preference thing.
3) Sensitivity to such matters would potentially allow Amu to allow herself to be persuaded in the other direction (example: Midori) unless we directly vote otherwise? (Social is not a 0 sum game)

I get where you are coming from, but the definition/standpoint you seem to have chosen is so strict as to be functionally useless - the problems you mention will remain even if we have 0 dots of Socialise, it's just Amu will fall flat on her face more often that way?
Socialize isn't used for defense. The defensive stat is Integrity. Someone trying to persuade Amu would run up against her Integrity and then further social combat might end up being a WP pissing match.

You say that the problems remain even with no Socialize dots, that may be true - I'd just prefer to play around them in that case.

As an example, if Makoto were to approach Amu with a "psychic vigilante" idea and was not inherently receptive to relying on external organizations like JP's instead, I'd just let her go ahead with it and opt to use the position that Makoto presumably wants to offer Amu to keep an eye on them and try and make sure they don't run up against anything they can't handle.

And if they do, we don't need to artificially persuade Makoto using any means that calling JP's for help is a good idea (if she still insists on being stubborn for whatever reason), we'd just use our own initiative to call JP's for help and let her be annoyed afterwards.
 
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What we decide may not necessarily end up being a good idea and trying to force what we think is a good idea onto someone else may end up being a mistake, is the point.
Indeed. And your followup post now makes things clear to me - no longer feels like points tilted just outside of my frame of reference.
I wonder what you think about the potential necessity of Amu needing to get better at concealment?
 
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