Shards of a Broken Sun [Deprecated; see link in final post for remake]

Essence 3 (i.e. the maximum a god-blooded can get without becoming a spirit)
IIRC it was explicitely stated that MegaTen verse have less restrictions than Exalted one in terms of what power mortals and semi-mortals can get.

Also after Alcor's machinations he is closer to Exigent with power over Dragon Stream than God-blooded... IMHO certainly. Well, those are 3E, but anyway.
 
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IIRC it was explicitely stated that MegaTen verse have less restrictions than Exalted one in terms of what power mortals and semi-mortals can get.

Also after Alcor's machinations he is closer to Exigent with power over Dragon Stream than God-blooded... IMHO certainly. Well, those are 3E, but anyway.
Baughn said god-blooded.
I gave him the best DMDV a god-blooded can get.
If he bypasses the Essence line for god-blooded without becoming a spirit, he's not a god-blooded, he's something else.
 
If he bypasses the Essence line for god-blooded without becoming a spirit, he's not a god-blooded, he's something else.
Not necessary. Looser limitations are looser limitations. For example I suspect local mortals can learn Celestial MA and don't go SPLAT from the overload.

That said as I said I suspect him starting as God-blooded but now being closer to Exigent.
 
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Not necessary. Looser limitations are looser limitations. For example I suspect local mortals can learn Celestial MA and don't go SPLAT from the overload.

That said as I said I suspect him starting as God-blooded but now being closer to Exigent.
He could be an Incarnae (10 Willpower, 10 Integrity, Essence 10) and he'd still be burning 2-3 wp after that attack (unless he used a charm to boost his MDV).
 
He could be an Incarnae (10 Willpower, 10 Integrity, Essence 10) and he'd still be burning 2-3 wp after that attack (unless he used a charm to boost his MDV).
It essentially doesn't matter. Let's say you are right and it burns 5 willpower. You know what he will do next? Realize what is going on and initiate physical combat instead of social. And it would be our loss even if we will win.

There are plenty of beings in MegaTen that would persuade you to slit your own throat if you allow them to talk long enough. It's not OCP for people high enough like Hotsuin so he know that if somebody social attack you on this level you go combat and hope for the best.
 
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It essentially doesn't matter. Let's say you are right and it burns 5 willpower. You know what he will do next? Realize what is going on and initiate physical combat instead of social. And it would be our loss even if we will win.

There are plenty of beings in MegaTen that would persuade you to slit your own throat if you allow them to talk long enough. It's not OCP for people high enough like Hotsuin so he know that if somebody social attack you on this level you go combat and hope for the best.
He summons Satan

Naturally he's aware of beings such as the Morningstar.

Escalating with him is a bad idea.
 
It essentially doesn't matter. Let's say you are right and it burns 5 willpower. You know what he will do next? Realize what is going on and initiate physical combat instead of social. And it would be our loss even if we will win.
Wait, he's the kind of person who beats up people who make convincing arguments?
And you want us to work with him?

Enemy Castigating Solar Judgement only works on Creatures of Darkness, so we wouldn't get anything out of this without Should the Sun Not Rise and some way of inflicting that status.
No, ECSJ has multiple effects. The one that makes it UMI only targets CoD, but the DV-halving effect lacks the CoD-only clause.
 
Wait, he's the kind of person who beats up people who make convincing arguments?
And you want us to work with him?


No, ECSJ has multiple effects. The one that makes it UMI only targets CoD, but the DV-halving effect lacks the CoD-only clause.
.

More like he's a control freak, and if he feels we're infringing on his territory, he'll commit himself to putting us in our place.
 
No, ECSJ has multiple effects. The one that makes it UMI only targets CoD, but the DV-halving effect lacks the CoD-only clause.
The wording is
This Charm makes creatures of darkness treat the social attack as unnatural mental influence that costs one Willpower to resist.
This Charm also halves the creature's base MDVs against the attack.
where "the creature's base MDV" is clearly meant to refer to the creature of darkness mentioned in the previous sentence.
 
It essentially doesn't matter. Let's say you are right and it burns 5 willpower. You know what he will do next? Realize what is going on and initiate physical combat instead of social. And it would be our loss even if we will win.

Unlikely. If you make an argument that is so convincing he needs to burn 5 willpower to ignore it he's not likely to attack you. Even if is a control freak.

Now, he might attack us because we aren't doing what he says we should be doing or because we are proving too difficult to control, but that's a different issue not directly related to the argument.
 
Wait, he's the kind of person who beats up people who make convincing arguments?
And you want us to work with him?
On that level, hell, on upper human level it's NOT "make convincing arguments" any more*.

And when girl that wasn't like that suddenly start making such arguments it's not "make convincing arguments" at all. Especially when it's known fact that there are beings that can make convincing argument to slit your own throat if you allow them to talk.

*And I'm not talking about a game. People who can persuade somebody to do something and day later said person would go all "WHY THE FUCK I DID AGREED TO THAT?!!!" are quite real. Most "funny"? Best way to deal with such people is to realise that you are dealing with one and punch in the face. Because they usually find way to make you listen if you try to evade them.
 
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On that level, hell, on upper human level it's NOT "make convincing arguments" any more.

And when girl that wasn't like that suddenly start making such arguments it's not "make convincing arguments" at all. Especially when it's known fact that there are beings that can make convincing argument to slit your own throat if you allow them to talk.
Pretty much. At this stage, if Amu's argumentation skills suddenly improve then he's going to assume the worst. He knows she's "possessed", and he's already observed some of what that means. Not to mention that her entire family (parents aside) is blatantly supernatural.

Though, that being said, there's a difference between a good argument delivered clumsily and a bad argument delivered with supernatural effectiveness. Hotsuin didn't lie, when he rejected your arguments; that would have been dangerous, and he despises that sort of manipulation. He also didn't mention every reason he might have for doing so, and slanted his reasoning, but... consider this. Amu's understanding of... anything that's not warfare or some sort of engineering/math/science.. is pretty limited.

In particular, someone made an argument that giving the rest of the government access to demons would be tantamount to pushing JPs out of the loop. This is likely to be correct. Of course Hotsuin focused on the part of that problem which was most likely to move Amu—they wouldn't know what to do with them—but removing his ability to control events is <REDACTED>.
 
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Also social-fu "convincing arguments" and hard facts convincing arguments most of the time are different things. He wouldn't punch somebody who uses Bureaucracy or War to make real convincing arguments and not "do this because I think it's right and not because it's logical to do".

...

To think about any attempt to diplomance Hotsuin should use War, Bureaucracy, Occult, Investigation, Lore or Craft - cold hard facts.
 
Presence is as much about presenting the things you've gathered as it's about anything else. It's not supported mechanically but well reasoned plans backed up by history and good research should provide considerable bonuses to the one making the arguments.

Doesn't mean you can't fuck it up because you can't present it in a way that helps convince the target, but it does mean that if you can bring it in a convincing manner the facts help your case.
 
Something interesting:
And yet, here she was. In Hotsuin's office, with him, Makoto and Fumi, doing her very best to reason out the behaviour of society from first principles, while the others picked holes in her arguments. Arguing policy and telling Hotsuin what could and couldn't be done, while her family was peacefully getting to know each other. She wanted to be there, with them.
Emphasis mine. It looks like part of the problem is that Amu isn't actually very good at modeling aggregate human political behavior, which indicates to me that her Lore-derived knowledge of sociology and anthropology is mostly academic when not combined with other Abilities.

So, maybe Amu shouldn't be pushing her plans through unmodified, regardless of Hotsuin's politicking. Bureaucracy and Socialize should help there a lot, meaning Su's our go-to Chara for devising the plans. Might even be worth quick-buying the first dot of Bureaucracy on Amu.

Pretty much. At this stage, if Amu's argumentation skills suddenly improve then he's going to assume the worst. He knows she's "possessed", and he's already observed some of what that means. Not to mention that her entire family (parents aside) is blatantly supernatural.
So, high-end Presence Excellency and Presence Charms bad. As would be suddenly gaining All the Presence Dots, I presume.

So we'll need to pace increasing that skill.

...

As a separate question, if we spent the 1xp to raise Presence to 2 would that be likely to reduce Dia's bonus there? If so, would that be neutralized if we spent the full 5 to increase the aggregate Presence of Amu+Dia to 4 and put the gained dot in Amu's Presence?
 
Something interesting:

Emphasis mine. It looks like part of the problem is that Amu isn't actually very good at modeling aggregate human political behavior, which indicates to me that her Lore-derived knowledge of sociology and anthropology is mostly academic when not combined with other Abilities.

This is correct. Practical knowledge aggregate political behaviour is largely governed by the Socialise and Bureaucracy skills, depending on the situation, as those govern the practical skills of very large groups of people and organisations, respectively.


Lore handles most of the humanities, math and general academic knowledge. It's an important stat for any scientist as a result, but it's largely abstract. A botanist might be able to identify and rattle off the entire taxonomy of any given plant you put before him, but without Craft: Wood he wouldn't know how to keep it alive except in the broadest sense.

A gardener in contrast might not be able to tell you why exactly certain plants work bests in certain soil types, but he'd be able to keep any plant you give him alive and well.
 
As a separate question, if we spent the 1xp to raise Presence to 2 would that be likely to reduce Dia's bonus there? If so, would that be neutralized if we spent the full 5 to increase the aggregate Presence of Amu+Dia to 4 and put the gained dot in Amu's Presence?
Yes, and no.

Deliberately trying to avoid skill overlap is something Exa can do, but not without Amu and Dia becoming a lot more familiar with each other first. There's more going on with Dia than you think; even without Midori's modifications, she's less Amu than any of the others.

You could try to raise Dia's skill, which would sidestep the problem, but she's a bit fragile right now.
Lore handles most of the humanities, math and general academic knowledge. It's an important stat for any scientist as a result, but it's largely abstract. A botanist might be able to identify and rattle off the entire taxonomy of any given plant you put before him, but without Craft: Wood he wouldn't know how to keep it alive except in the broadest sense.
This is correct. To clarify the "most", some parts of academia do fall under other abilities; bureaucracy, for example, contains just as much theory as practical skills. The theory is needed to let her handle odd situations or build an ideal bureaucracy from scratch, the practical skills to actually do anything with her knowledge.

---

At this point, I should remind y'all that there's still a vote on. You don't have to visit the shrine right now, but it seems likely that you will--so who will you want to bring?

- Hotsuin would like you to bring Yukari, and while you're not privilege to his thought processes, it seems.. unlikely that he has anything but the best of intentions in this. Amu has had a chance to look through her bio, which is pretty impressive. She's presently studying at Tokyo University, a surface detail of her life that has little bearing on most of her days, which are largely concerned with... well, stopping anything like Nyx from happening again, by whichever means. She has twice declined a job offer from JPs, but did offer her services in case Nyarly surfaces again.

- Io is... probably a little scary, but she really wants something to do, and this outing seems a safe enough way of getting to know her. Amu is unsure of why she's still in JPs at all, now that lines of communication inside of Tokyo are mostly reopened, but maybe her home is in one of the areas most damaged by the earthquakes?

- Lt. Kato, the poor guy, probably won't mind the chance to go do what he's paid for. It seems he's otherwise doomed to spend his days following you around.

- Ran has her hands busy helping with fallout containment, both in the angelic and nuclear sense of the word.
 
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So, high-end Presence Excellency and Presence Charms bad. As would be suddenly gaining All the Presence Dots, I presume.

So we'll need to pace increasing that skill.
I think we can use Dia as cover here: we can get her up to 5 without increasing Amu's skills by more than one dot, and he knows (or could easily find out) that Charas can give large (by human standards) skill boosts. Charms are right out, unfortunately.

[x] Head off to Narukoten Shrine (2 hours, minimum)
- [x] Bringing Takeba
- [x] Io Nitta
- [x] Lt. Kato

- [x] Bring Dia


Removing the charm purchase and chara transform from my vote, but I still think we should bring Dia. We need to spend time around her to get to know her and her Presence boost can still be useful untransformed. I would be voting to give her and Amu another dot of Presence, but Baughn's post leads me to think we should leave that until later.
 
Yes, and no.

Deliberately trying to avoid skill overlap is something Exa can do, but not without Amu and Dia becoming a lot more familiar with each other first. There's more going on with Dia than you think; even without Midori's modifications, she's less Amu than any of the others.

You could try to raise Dia's skill, which would sidestep the problem, but she's a bit fragile right now.
Fair 'nuff. I'm guessing this is a fragility that runs deeper than 'mundane' aspects of mental instability and that more Integrity wouldn't help, which means the mundane approach (i.e. getting to know her as you get to know anyone) might be best.
I think we can use Dia as cover here: we can get her up to 5 without increasing Amu's skills by more than one dot, and he knows (or could easily find out) that Charas can give large (by human standards) skill boosts. Charms are right out, unfortunately.
True, IIRC training time for even unfavored skills is just a couple days, so Amu getting somewhat better at making arguments (i.e. Presence 2) when she's up against Hotsuin himself isn't wholly implausible... and with Dia having +3 to that she'd be at the maximum anyway.
Removing the charm purchase and chara transform from my vote, but I still think we should bring Dia. We need to spend time around her to get to know her and her Presence boost can still be useful untransformed. I would be voting to give her and Amu another dot of Presence, but Baughn's post leads me to think we should leave that until later.
[x] Head off to Narukoten Shrine (2 hours, minimum)
- [x] Bringing Takeba
- [x] Io Nitta
- [x] Lt. Kato
- [x] Bring Dia
[x] Quick-learn Bureaucracy 1 (3 xp, 1 hour)


New sister needs Amuhugs.

Bureaucracy 1 shouldn't have catastrophic implications since it's affecting Amu's core Abilities with no existing overlaps, and it unlocks the potential for an appropriate Chara - probably Su - for bringing it past that point. Otherwise we'd be spending three weeks trying to get it, or one week with Legendary Scholar Curriculum.
 
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True, IIRC training time for even unfavored skills is just a couple days, so Amu getting somewhat better at making arguments (i.e. Presence 2) when she's up against Hotsuin himself isn't wholly implausible... and with Dia having +3 to that she'd be at the maximum anyway.
Actually, it's (New Rating) weeks, and that assumes you have a teacher and that you spend 8 hours a day practising. I'm mostly hoping that the effect of one dot is swamped by the bonus from Dia, so any suspicions that would happen from the first instead get directed at Dia and resolved (because Dia isn't particularly suspicious in that way)

Bureaucracy 1 shouldn't have catastrophic implications since it's affecting Amu's core Abilities, and it unlocks the potential for an appropriate Chara - probably Su - for bringing it past that point. Otherwise we'd be spending three weeks trying to get it, or one week with Legendary Scholar Curriculum.
We don't need the first dot of an ability to have a Chara bonus in it, Amu has nothing in any of Miki's skills. Additionally, Legendary Scholar Curriculum can't be used to teach abilities you have less than 4 dots in, so we can't self train in Bureaucracy like that.

Bureaucracy is a fairly long term skill anyway, because we would have to convince people to let us use it, so I'd like to leave it until after Hell Week.
 
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True, IIRC training time for even unfavored skills is just a couple days, so Amu getting somewhat better at making arguments (i.e. Presence 2) when she's up against Hotsuin himself isn't wholly implausible... and with Dia having +3 to that she'd be at the maximum anyway.
Actually, it's (New Rating) weeks, and that assumes you have a teacher and that you spend 8 hours a day practising. I'm mostly hoping that the effect of one dot is swamped by the bonus from Dia, so any suspicions that would happen from the first instead get directed at Dia and resolved (because Dia isn't particularly suspicious in that way)
You'd be right, except Presence is Favored.

And bumping up any stat on a Chara is treated as Favored as well.
 
We don't need the first dot of an ability to have a Chara bonus in it, Amu has nothing in any of Miki's skills.
This is true, but also wholly irrelevant. Training times and experience for the first dot of an Ability are identical whether or not it's favored. To acquire it in a reasonable amount of time (i.e. less than three weeks, especially given we can't use LSC on it), we'd need to spend a quicklearn slot and the same amount of experience points anyway, so it may as well actually be on Amu.

Craft, Stealth, and Socialize don't need this treatment not because they're Chara-favored, but because the Charas already have them.
 
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