Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

[Lealope]

I have a question about how history works in oMage; because it seems since the line wants to really stick with the whole urban fantasy sthick and historical inertia being what it is; it seems that it would really undermine the idea the whole Traditions vs technocracy as even a thing because it seems at a cursory glance the history from 1600s onwards is basiclly technocrats fighting technocrats; for example; the Ottomans loved using guns to propel their conquests so how does that explain that the proto order of the reason is supposed to be fighting the mages at same time fueling all these conflicts in period agaisnt each other? Seems really incoherent.

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"For the Traditions, their main enemy is the Technocracy. For Technocrats, their main enemy is also the Technocracy i.e. those bastards in the neighboring amalgam trying to steal your funding."

-paraphrased from @MJ12 Commando.

More seriously, mortals turning to technology for warfare is a victory for the Technocrats because it means their paradigm has become the standard and default that the entire world uses.

It would actually be worse for them if only one side used technology and the other side used magic as that would mean the latter was being acknowledged as a valid option, gaining exposure through its use in battle.

 

[Azrael]

I have a question about how history works in oMage; because it seems since the line wants to really stick with the whole urban fantasy sthick and historical inertia being what it is; it seems that it would really undermine the idea the whole Traditions vs technocracy as even a thing because it seems at a cursory glance the history from 1600s onwards is basiclly technocrats fighting technocrats; for example; the Ottomans loved using guns to propel their conquests so how does that explain that the proto order of the reason is supposed to be fighting the mages at same time fueling all these conflicts in period agaisnt each other? Seems really incoherent.

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Simple.

History is a lie.

The reason the world looks Technocratic is because the Technocracy won. It then, like all winners in history, looked at what happened and said 'I know how to spin this so I'll look better'.

Of course you don't know about Ya-Shu-Ha, whose fierce dragon-riding knights fought desperately against the Order of Reason's mechanical soldiers in the early 15th century. The Technocracy won, then wrote the history books and omitted there was ever such a country.

Of course the Ottomans didn't have a cabal of mages attached to their armies who could level the walls of a fort after a day-long ritual. The Ottomans used very big guns to slowly breach the walls, just like everyone else.

Of course the Chinese Emperor isn't descended from dragons, those don't exist. Its just a lie they used to make their rule seem more legitimate to the superstitious peasantry. This is why education and science are the path to humanity's bright, shining future.

So go to school. Get the Technocratic paradigm drilled into your head. Listen to the news shows that are funded by the government. A government that the Technocracy helped establish and retains influence in. Don't seek out alternative answers. There is nothing wondrous about the world, save that which is not yet sufficiently understood. There are no miracles, merely statistical improbabilities.

Be a good little Sleeper.


The core premise of the game has the Traditions as the underdogs in a war for the control of the hearts and minds of every human on Earth. Your question just proves that.

 

[Talkkno]

Of course the Ottomans didn't have a cabal of mages attached to their armies who could level the walls of a fort after a day-long ritual. The Ottomans used very big guns to slowly breach the walls, just like everyone else.

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That only makes sense if the Ottomans were colonized and directly under auspices of being directly imperialized to impose that history on them though which they obviously weren't. Because it doesn't make sense Ottoman mages obey the dictates of primarily European cabal of mages of following the ideology of "magic=bad" rather then a mix of tech and mysticism, because the time of the Order of the Reason was also the time the Ottomans were reaching the apex of their strength.

 

[Azrael]

That only makes sense if the Ottomans were colonized and directly under auspices of being directly imperialized to impose that history on them though which they obviously weren't. Because it doesn't make sense Ottoman mages obey the dictates of primarily European cabal of mages of following the ideology of "magic=bad" rather then a mix of tech and mysticism, because the time of the Order of the Reason was also the time the Ottomans were reaching the apex of their strength.

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Congratulations on completely missing the point.

 

[Talkkno]

Congratulations on completely missing the point.

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Then whats the real history? Because what are the Traditions really supposed to represent then, in terms being an opposing shadowy conspiracy to the Technocracy, I'm having a hard time closing the gap between somehow the Hermetics are the most powerful of the traditions and the actual relationship to historical events.

 

[BossFight]

Then whats the real history? Because what are the Traditions really supposed to represent then, in terms being an opposing shadowy conspiracy to the Technocracy, I'm having a hard time closing the gap between somehow the Hermetics are the most powerful of the traditions and the actual relationship to historical events.

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Real history is basically a fantasy novel with wizards and dragons and gods gradually being exterminated by the Trechnocracy. However the Technocracy has since changed history so none of that ever happened. They have actually changed the past by changing what we believe of the past. They didn't just kill dragons, they. Add it so dragons never existed.

In 1e the original history was Exalted but that was dropped pretty early on in the line. It's now just an unknown time of magic and wonder which has since never happened.

 

[Talkkno]

Real history is basically a fantasy novel with wizard and drasgons and king th masters gradually being exterminated by the Trechnocracy. However the Technocracy has since changed history so none of that ever happened. They have actually changed the past by changing what we believe of trhe past. They didn't just kill dragons, they. Add it so dragons never existed.

In 1e the original history was Exalted but that was dropped pretty ealy on in the line. It's now just an unknown time of magic and wonder which has since never happened.

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Then why should anyone believe at all that technocracy narrative occly about "progress" when there the ones rectonning "dark ages" existing in the first place.

 

[MJ12 Commando]

Then why should anyone believe at all that technocracy narrative occly about "progress" when there the ones rectonning "dark ages" existing in the first place.

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Because the High Mythic Age was frankly not a nice place to be if you weren't a mage? Like, this comes up repeatedly as to why the Technocracy won. They enabled, and rose to power on, a mass revolt against the cruel, self-absorbed god-kings who had been ruling society.

 

[BossFight]

Then why should anyone believe at all that technocracy narrative occly about "progress" when there the ones rectonning "dark ages" existing in the first place.

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Because most people don't know about that. Consensual reality is something known about by only a very few even within the Trechnocracy itself.

 

[The Laurent]

Because the High Mythic Age was frankly not a nice place to be if you weren't a mage? Like, this comes up repeatedly as to why the Technocracy won. They enabled, and rose to power on, a mass revolt against the cruel, self-absorbed god-kings who had been ruling society.

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Though honestly that seems too one-sided a presentation of things anyways. I mean, to be much fun unless you're specifically wanting to play as the Technocracy and etc, etc.

I mean, if you want philosophical knife fights, going, "This side is totally right" doesn't help a thing.

 

[BossFight]

Though honestly that seems too one-sided a presentation of things anyways. I mean, to be much fun unless you're specifically wanting to play as the Technocracy and etc, etc.

I mean, if you want philosophical knife fights, going, "This side is totally right" doesn't help a thing.

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Agreed. I tend to play that Exalted is still the past.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Though honestly that seems too one-sided a presentation of things anyways. I mean, to be much fun unless you're specifically wanting to play as the Technocracy and etc, etc.

I mean, if you want philosophical knife fights, going, "This side is totally right" doesn't help a thing.

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Because that's the trick.

For a post-modernist game, "reverting to an idealised past" cannot be the answer the line gives you. It is equally wrong as the argument that the Technocracy gives you. Pre-modernism is equally incorrect as modernism.

This is sometimes more clear than other times in the line, but the higher ups in the Traditions are figures to reject and overcome for a young Traditionalist. They have their roadmaps for a world - and their roadmaps are no more correct than the Technocracy's roadmap (and may in fact be more wrong, because overthrowing the current world order in violent revolution resulting in a huge number of deaths, just to get back where you currently are, is a net loss).

Just as the "intended" game for a young Technocrat is either reforming the Technocracy from within or defecting, so the "intended" game for a young Traditionalist involves sticking it to the stuffy old masters who try to tell you to only associate with members of your own Tradition and that you can't practice witchcraft using grinding on an MMO to gather the symbolic ritual ingredients (putting the same amount of blood, sweat and tears in as you would going out into the woods).

 

[Talkkno]

Because the High Mythic Age was frankly not a nice place to be if you weren't a mage? Like, this comes up repeatedly as to why the Technocracy won. They enabled, and rose to power on, a mass revolt against the cruel, self-absorbed god-kings who had been ruling society.

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Why should I believe that as the "True history" as having any more veracity then the technocracy "Dragons didn't exist; they were actually dinosaurs; here's the bones" they've rectonned? Of coruse they would cast the light as an age of tyrants and barbarism fueled by those evil mages with their light of their science they banished to the dark corners of the world to justfy what they do.

 

[Chloe Sullivan]

Why should I believe that as the "True history" as having any more veracity then the technocracy "Dragons didn't exist; they were actually dinosaurs; here's the bones" they've rectonned? Of coruse they would cast the light as an age of tyrants and barbarism fueled by those evil mages with their light of their science they banished to the dark corners of the world to justfy what they do.

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You don't have to? I mean c'mon, mage is a game of philosophy, and you're supposed to provide your own answer.

But given that the masses outnumber mages like a million to one, it seems pretty intuitive that the common folk decided they liked the consistency of technology and science over magic shenanigans.

 

[Talkkno]

But given that the masses outnumber mages like a million to one, it seems pretty intuitive that the common folk decided they liked the consistency of technology and science over magic shenanigans.

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The Techcnoracys "science" is just arbitrary as any other paradigm, they peddle a vision of glorious rational scientific enlightenment but jackboot anything doesn't already fit their already proscribed vision, they aren't discovers of the unknown, they got their own conclusions about how the world works and shoot anyone who demonstrates it works otherwise.

There's no reason to believe technopardrim is the only way to bring power to the massess when there's plently of technoadjanct paragrims practiced by the traditions that basically the same thing expect for different aesthetics like alchemy; its more reason to believe the Order of the Reason was just the first group of mages that got their stuff together to be organized to apply theiir paradrim to everyone else.

 

[Bastur2]

The Techcnoracys "science" is just arbitrary as any other paradigm, they peddle a vision of glorious rational scientific enlightenment but jackboot anything doesn't already fit their already proscribed vision, they aren't discovers of the unknown, they got their own conclusions about how the world works and shoot anyone who demonstrates it works otherwise.

There's no reason to believe technopardrim is the only way to bring power to the massess when there's plently of technoadjanct paragrims practiced by the traditions that basically the same thing expect for different aesthetics like alchemy; its more reason to believe the Order of the Reason was just the first group of mages that got their stuff together to be organized to apply theiir paradrim to everyone else.

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This, as all the Traditions were enemies at that point in time and were competing to impose their Paradigms in the world.

What The Order of Reason did was simple be more efficient in using the sleepers and the animosity that the other mages had for each other (animosity that could be part otf the reing paradigma of the time, if you consider that Ars Magica was, for a time, part of the Mythical Age of the owod) against them.

 

[Quantumboost]

There's no reason to believe technopardrim is the only way to bring power to the massess when there's plently of technoadjanct paragrims practiced by the traditions that basically the same thing expect for different aesthetics like alchemy; its more reason to believe the Order of the Reason was just the first group of mages that got their stuff together to be organized to apply theiir paradrim to everyone else.

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Note that that's only completely true of the Hermetic paradigm, which is very much the main precursor to the Order of Reason in the first place. Paradigms are not truly arbitrary; they define what you believe is possible and how. That also entails defining what you believe is impossible. The Technocratic paradigm entails reproducible results and objective phenomena that can be harnessed by anyone 'in the know' or things they build to take advantage of those phenomena. The Hermetic Paradigm has that, as well. They could have done the same as the Order of Reason did, they simply did not choose to.

The core Dreamspeaker paradigm (for example) does not have that, because your ability to work miracles depends on maintaining a personal relationship with the spirit world or the individual spirits of the things you use. Nor many of the other Tradition paradigms, for that matter.

As for

Why should I believe that as the "True history" as having any more veracity then the technocracy "Dragons didn't exist; they were actually dinosaurs; here's the bones"

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...it's what the actual authors of the actual WoD books dealing with the Dark Ages and the Renaissance actually wrote about what actually happened. You are free to dislike it, and to play characters who believe otherwise, and to make it something entirely different if you ST a game. But if you're going to ask "well what actually happened", that's the answer you're going to get, because it's canon. Complaining about that to the people who're answering your question as though they're the ones who decided it is kind of silly.

 

[Talkkno]

As for ...it's what the actual authors of the actual WoD books dealing with the Dark Ages and the Renaissance actually wrote about what actually happened. You are free to dislike it, and to play characters who believe otherwise, and to make it something entirely different if you ST a game. But if you're going to ask "well what actually happened", that's the answer you're going to get, because it's canon. Complaining about that to the people who're answering your question as though they're the ones who decided it is kind of silly.

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Given the metaphyics of the setting does make sense that there is true history though? Given the ablity of thd technocracy rectonning dinosaurs into existence.

 

[Acatalepsy]

Assuming I wanted to run an Ascension game with people broadly unfamiliar with WoD, what's the best system for doing so? There are to my knowledge a couple of different versions and I'm not sure what I'd actually need to acquire to run the game (nevermind the mechanical....issues).

 

[Chehrazad]

Assuming I wanted to run an Ascension game with people broadly unfamiliar with WoD, what's the best system for doing so? There are to my knowledge a couple of different versions and I'm not sure what I'd actually need to acquire to run the game (nevermind the mechanical....issues).

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Prooobably a modified Mage: The Awakening, as any current Mage: The Ascension system is utterly broken, either that or ask @MJ12 Commando to supply you with whatever hybridized abomination that he's using for Panopticon Quest.

 

[notanautomaton]

Assuming I wanted to run an Ascension game with people broadly unfamiliar with WoD, what's the best system for doing so? There are to my knowledge a couple of different versions and I'm not sure what I'd actually need to acquire to run the game (nevermind the mechanical....issues).

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Mage the Awakening, but change the Arcana around to better represent the Spheres.

 

[Acatalepsy]

Prooobably a modified Mage: The Awakening,

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Mage the Awakening, but change the Arcana around to better represent the Spheres.

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I assumed that such a thing had to exist, but aside from some incomplete skeletons, I have not found a one that seems complete, and I have little desire to build such a conversation myself.

 

[TheLastOne]

Because that's the trick.

For a post-modernist game, "reverting to an idealised past" cannot be the answer the line gives you. It is equally wrong as the argument that the Technocracy gives you. Pre-modernism is equally incorrect as modernism.

This is sometimes more clear than other times in the line, but the higher ups in the Traditions are figures to reject and overcome for a young Traditionalist. They have their roadmaps for a world - and their roadmaps are no more correct than the Technocracy's roadmap (and may in fact be more wrong, because overthrowing the current world order in violent revolution resulting in a huge number of deaths, just to get back where you currently are, is a net loss).

Just as the "intended" game for a young Technocrat is either reforming the Technocracy from within or defecting, so the "intended" game for a young Traditionalist involves sticking it to the stuffy old masters who try to tell you to only associate with members of your own Tradition and that you can't practice witchcraft using grinding on an MMO to gather the symbolic ritual ingredients (putting the same amount of blood, sweat and tears in as you would going out into the woods).

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Yeah. One of the ongoing themes that you work with in Tradition games is that the Traditions are a herd of cats, and that (most) of the old masters don't really like the idea that people on the ground have to associate with each other, befriend each other, learn from each other.

They want to use the other traditions, without buying into the idea of the Traditions. Even the masters who are better about this have their own issues.

The Virtual Adapts and the Dreamspeakers are both extremely loose fraternities in their own ways, to the point where there is no one who can honestly speak for them as a group.

The Ethantos have the worst press and reputation for any number of reasons.

The leadership of the Cult of Ecstasy are pacifists who are unwilling to dirty their hands even by proxy.

So if something is going to happen, you'll have to do it, but you can't do it alone. You have to overcome the culture of failure that permeates the Nine Traditions, you have to establish a living movement. No amount of throwing bombs at Technocratic Constructs will change the direction things are moving - you have to sell something the Sleepers will buy.

 

[notanautomaton]

I assumed that such a thing had to exist, but aside from some incomplete skeletons, I have not found a one that seems complete, and I have little desire to build such a conversation myself.

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If you don't want to change the mechanics, would you be willing to change the setting a bit? You could have the Council of Ten, with the Hollow Ones as the Death Sphere/Arcana. Or you could give them the Sphere without the seat on the council. Or any number of things to take Awakening's mechanics and applying them to Ascension's setting.

 

[TheLastOne]

I assumed that such a thing had to exist, but aside from some incomplete skeletons, I have not found a one that seems complete, and I have little desire to build such a conversation myself.

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Honestly you can get most of what you need from the Mage Translation Guide.

Mage Translation Guide - Onyx Path Publishing | Mage: The Awakening | Mage: The Ascension Revised | Mage: The Ascension Revised Edition | Mage: The Awakening 2nd Edition | DriveThruRPG.com

If you want to use second edition Mage I have no advice, but first edition is mechanically sound enough. I have my issues with the nWoD, but it's generally ok.