It's controlled information, but it's also information demons want out there. It's a less useful specialty if you can't reliably call up demons, it's more valuable if you can do it easily. Hence why I prefer it as sorcery rather then mere skill. Because the setting doesn't make any sense if Beckon is that easy.
And for demons to spread it they need to be beckoned. This requires demons who know the methods to be called. A bit of a catch 22, no? Reliably getting one that is both not immediately lethal and also is willing to do what the beckoner wants rather than something else is also a problem. The rewards are certainly high, but the risks are as well, and given the climate of Creation the risks are going to be much more publicized.

Only if you make assumptions like all specialties are equally available (which is counter to the setting), that demon beckoning isn't portrayed as extremely risky( again, contrary to setting), or that it is cheap to do ( contrary to the setting) do you get weird results. Otherwise, well, it's well controlled knowledge that can provide significant power to those who would grasp it, but carries significant risks as well. In addition, the ritual itself isn't easy, needing 5 success to accomplish. Someone with average stats applies 5 dice. That's not someone who's going to be summoning a lot of demons.
 
And for demons to spread it they need to be beckoned. This requires demons who know the methods to be called. A bit of a catch 22, no? Reliably getting one that is both not immediately lethal and also is willing to do what the beckoner wants rather than something else is also a problem. The rewards are certainly high, but the risks are as well, and given the climate of Creation the risks are going to be much more publicized.

Only if you make assumptions like all specialties are equally available (which is counter to the setting), that demon beckoning isn't portrayed as extremely risky( again, contrary to setting), or that it is cheap to do ( contrary to the setting) do you get weird results. Otherwise, well, it's well controlled knowledge that can provide significant power to those who would grasp it, but carries significant risks as well. In addition, the ritual itself isn't easy, needing 5 success to accomplish. Someone with average stats applies 5 dice. That's not someone who's going to be summoning a lot of demons.

Demon's spontaneously get out, Hell is leaky, and yes, many demons should know they're own Beckoning ritual. If you're Beckoning Blood Apes... well, you're a moron, but lots of demons aren't that unsociable. That's my point, Beckoning as presented isn't canon-OK. If you rewrite the demons so that they're all that bad, if you make them more standard in other words, that would also fix the problem I suppose. But I don't think of that as a good solution. Saying 'Only Sorcerers can summon demons' make it much rarer, and it makes demons want to encourage sorcery, contributing to their bad reputation.

And I'm not digging up my books at this point, but I'm pretty sure it's an extended ritual, so you don't have to make it on one roll.
 
Demon's spontaneously get out, Hell is leaky, and yes, many demons should know they're own Beckoning ritual. If you're Beckoning Blood Apes... well, you're a moron, but lots of demons aren't that unsociable. That's my point, Beckoning as presented isn't canon-OK. If you rewrite the demons so that they're all that bad, if you make them more standard in other words, that would also fix the problem I suppose. But I don't think of that as a good solution. Saying 'Only Sorcerers can summon demons' make it much rarer, and it makes demons want to encourage sorcery, contributing to their bad reputation.
Why should they know the rituals? The smarter or more powerful, sure, but why should a random first circle know?

And it doesn't require that they be unsociable. Just that they be not inclined to help the beckoner.

And while you say your point is that it isn't ok in canon, my point is that your assumptions don't really line up with canon. You assume that it's easy to get the specialty, that it's easy to summon, that the risks are low or unknown...all of that is countered by what the material actually says.
And I'm not digging up my books at this point, but I'm pretty sure it's an extended ritual, so you don't have to make it on one roll.
I did when looking up difficulty. It's not an extended roll.
 
Why should they know the rituals? The smarter or more powerful, sure, but why should a random first circle know?

And it doesn't require that they be unsociable. Just that they be not inclined to help the beckoner.
Ultimately, most demons don't want to be in Hell. It's a horrid place. If someone beckons them into Creation, they may see this as an opportunity to kill the beckoner and take some vacation time in not-Hell, but they may equally realise, hey, this person can get me out of Hell, if I make a deal with them I can convince them to do this more often and get more time in not-Hell. This isn't a terribly complex chain of thought, so we have every reason to believe there's a sizable population of demons who will greet a beckoner fairly sociably. Further, since demons want out of hell, it's sensible for them to be familiar with the means of escape. It might be esoteric knowledge, but it's esoteric knowledge that's very important to them.
 
Ultimately, most demons don't want to be in Hell. It's a horrid place. If someone beckons them into Creation, they may see this as an opportunity to kill the beckoner and take some vacation time in not-Hell, but they may equally realise, hey, this person can get me out of Hell, if I make a deal with them I can convince them to do this more often and get more time in not-Hell. This isn't a terribly complex chain of thought, so we have every reason to believe there's a sizable population of demons who will greet a beckoner fairly sociably. Further, since demons want out of hell, it's sensible for them to be familiar with the means of escape. It might be esoteric knowledge, but it's esoteric knowledge that's very important to them.
It's not a binary position: they can certainly kill the summoner. They can also just leave, which means the beckoner has just spent a significant amount of time and money for nothing. Or many other outcomes that aren't great for the beckoner, but are neutral or positive for the demon. Yet, for the beckoner, these are bad.

And I'm not sure that a piece of information that will almost never come up except for a vanishingly small percentage of demons will be known to a relatively high number of the population of hell. I mean, even if every person in Creation beckoned at least one First Circle then you'd have a vanishingly small percentage of demons in Creation in relation to the number of demons in hell.
 
Occult 2 is a professional. Therefore, if we're counting specialties as part of occult 2(which we seem to be), then most people dealing with the occult have Occult 1 with specialties in the relevant areas for them, and for most Demons are not too important. And even if they are, that's not enough to beckon. Occult 2 demons specialty means that they're professionally trained for all general occult areas and in relation to demons they are an elite authority. I do think it is laughable to say that 1 out of every 200 people is an elite occultist when it comes to demons, because face it, saying that is laughable. Even with Modern teaching methods, I'd find that questionable. 1 out of every 200 people is in no way an elite in Computer Science, which is probably the closest analogy to how you're interpreting how relevant occult is to everyone(which I also find questionable).
Just for reference:
"Someone with Occult 1 can probably appease a minor local spirit or tell that someone is about to cast a spell. Someone with Occult 3 can recognize the difference between real and fake talismans and successfully bargain with moderately powerful gods. Someone with Occult 5 can summon elementals and demons and impress a Fair Folk noble with her knowledge of its etiquette."
So yeah, it seems that summoning is generally assumed to be done at a higher skill level than the prerequisite for demon summoning. OTOH, it takes Occult 3 before you begin seeing the difference between items made with this skill and items made as a fake, which seems like a rather basic task. On the third hand, Medicine 1 is apparently sufficient to apply medical stitches, even in the low-tech world of Exalted. So the earlier statement that modern people have Science (or other Occult equivalent) at level 1-2 after a generic (non-specialised) education seems even more of a stretch.

Right, and they clearly do that. Along with other technical details. The point is that they don't have exact measurements, and that they also have a significant number of other technical details that we don't have, because the game is an abstraction. For instance, getting melee 3 is simply: I pay y xp or bp, and get it. All the rules involved with that probably don't top 2 pages. Someone actually getting melee 3 is reading/learning multiple college level courses worth of information. Similar things happen with other parts of the system: learning a charm isn't choosing something and learning it in an instant. Deciding that you want some capability and over time learning to move your essence in such a way that it achieves that capability. There's no reason that the text to describe this would be so small or simple, as you maintain.

Have you every tried to measure how much pain someone else is in? Because without high first age equipment, that's basically what you're trying to do. And while you can get information, getting a clear numerical answer(with that number relating to a measurable number) isn't easy.

Except people don't think of Exalted magic in terms of 'Excellencies' and so on. It's like a muscle; the Dynast surges with the power of the Elemental Dragons and surpasses the deeds of mortal heroes. How much? How hard is it? Unclear. It varies between people based on their skills (which are non-obvious). Basically, try applying this kind of measurement to muscle stamina, then talk about how easy it is.
I think the comparison to muscles manages to both underestimate the amount of measurements that go into physical training and be misleading due to muscular capability not being quantisized into integers the way motes (and thus their effects) are.
People do measure things like endurance, and it only takes a time-measurement device of some sort (which Exalts can do naturally) and some sort of track of a roughly known distance, or weights that can be compared to each other, or the like. But mote expenditure is much more measurable, because you can go "On a new day in the morning, can activate the weakest blessing of UCS exactly X times before my anima goes vroom" (assume either always or never spending from the Personal pool first during such experiment). So no, it is totally not comparable to measuring levels of pain (though you may be surprised that there is in fact a scale of pain, used for things like measuring how painful an insect sting/bite is).

Also, people definitely do think in terms of 'Excellencies' about magic. Thay have to. When the Eclipse comes to her Lunar Mate and asks her to teach this trick where his prettyness suddenly doubles (okay, just becomes prettier, that's enough), the Lunar will explain how to use an Appearance Excellency. Which is not the same as explaining how to groom oneself to get a permanent boost of prettiness. You can't have Exalts and Spirits teaching each other specific Charms without Charms being thought of. And Charms are integer - either you know it, or you don't; unlike other games, Exalted does not support the concept of a half-trained magical ability.
 
People do measure things like endurance, and it only takes a time-measurement device of some sort (which Exalts can do naturally) and some sort of track of a roughly known distance, or weights that can be compared to each other, or the like. But mote expenditure is much more measurable, because you can go "On a new day in the morning, can activate the weakest blessing of UCS exactly X times before my anima goes vroom" (assume either always or never spending from the Personal pool first during such experiment). So no, it is totally not comparable to measuring levels of pain (though you may be surprised that there is in fact a scale of pain, used for things like measuring how painful an insect sting/bite is).

Also, people definitely do think in terms of 'Excellencies' about magic. Thay have to. When the Eclipse comes to her Lunar Mate and asks her to teach this trick where his prettyness suddenly doubles (okay, just becomes prettier, that's enough), the Lunar will explain how to use an Appearance Excellency. Which is not the same as explaining how to groom oneself to get a permanent boost of prettiness. You can't have Exalts and Spirits teaching each other specific Charms without Charms being thought of. And Charms are integer - either you know it, or you don't; unlike other games, Exalted does not support the concept of a half-trained magical ability.
You are falling into the trap of assuming that the rules of the game perfectly describe the physics of the game.

This is not a place you want to be.
 
You are falling into the trap of assuming that the rules of the game perfectly describe the physics of the game.

This is not a place you want to be.

One of the casualties of the fact that Exalted 2 was so utterly shit in terms of quality control is the "writer's intent" argument - it goes nowhere, because the default assumption is incompetence rather than deliberate artistry. Going "oh, but, this was clearly the desired effect!" to anyone who's been around for a while will, almost inevitably, be met with "pull the other one, mate".

Back in 1E, you could maybe make that argument and have a reasonable shot at it working since Grabowski knew what he was doing and RSB had a definite 'the mechanics tell a story' bent along with the expertise to execute what she wanted (other issues aside), for 2E, well, it's a bad joke.
 
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You are falling into the trap of assuming that the rules of the game perfectly describe the physics of the game.

This is not a place you want to be.
I'm basing my argument very strictly on those assumptions that are parts of the setting, not abstractions, notably:
  • That a Mote is a minimum quantum of magical energy that is a thing in the setting (and known to scholars).
  • That the Charms need to explicitly be taught by one character to another in order for someone to learn a different-type Charm.
Everything else is a necessary logical conclusion from the above. (Is Borgstromancy related to this concept somehow?)

One of the casualties of the fact that Exalted 2 was so utterly shit in terms of quality control is the "writer's intent" argument - it goes nowhere, because the default assumption is incompetence rather than deliberate artistry. Going "oh, but, this was clearly the desired effect!" to anyone who's been around for a while will, almost inevitably, be met with "pull the other one, mate".

Back in 1E, you could maybe make that argument and have a reasonable shot at it working since Grabowski knew what he was doing and RSB had a definite 'the mechanics tell a story' bent along with the expertise to execute what she wanted (other issues aside), for 2E, well, it's a bad joke.
I thought writer's intent was largely the thing behind, say, the veteran Solar Essays in this very thread.
 
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Of course an experienced Exalt who bothers to measure such things will have a rough idea of when their anima flares, or how long they can keep up a certain level of activity.
Just like I have a rough idea of how long I can run at a certain speed, and when physical activity will start to cause me pain.

That does not, in any way, translate into said Exalt knowing anything about motes.
Why?
Because it's not an easy formula that is constant at all times.
In 2E, you have mote regeneration by stunts. In other words, sometimes you just happen to have more motes than expected - and you can't exactly differentiate that from your charms using less motes, for example.
In general, because you're not privy to your dice rolls. Sometimes, you can jump a distance of X without using any charms, so it takes no motes (lucky roll). Other times, you have to use an excellency, or another charm, so it does take motes. And that gets even more complicated with dice pool modifiers (which can happen at any time, arbitrarily depending on the storyteller and stunts) and especially once you're targeting others (because you won't know their defense values).

So in other words, you can't even measure performance exactly.
Just like in real life - despite sport sciences being a thing, an athletes performance is still not 100% predictable.


And an Exalts charms are not buttons to be pushed at-will by the Exalt, divorced from any activity!
An Exalt doesn't go "okay, I'll use my First Ability Excellency five times, spending three motes each time". Not even if you replace the words and instead say "Okay, I'll use the Suns Blessing on this activity five times, at moderate strength".
Instead, you'll get this: "I try to do this", "I try to do this harder" and "I try to do this as hard as I can". Just like you would say "okay, I jog a bit", "I start to sprint" and "I run as hard as I can". Or "I'm writing my thoughts down", "I'm structuring my post properly" or "I'm thinking really hard about this before posting it, and construct it carefully". The latter of those would certainly activate charms for an Exalt, but it's not a conscious choice to do so in-game.
Incidentally, this also means that an Exalt who's not using all available charms on an activity is holding back in-universe. An athletics-focused Solar who's not running faster than a race horse is consciously holding back, just like you would if you're riding a bike at a slow pace because you're driving alongside someone slower.​
Yes, those activities could be performed in a lab. That would give your results about the Solars performance, and you'd see that if they exert themselves they do produce anima flare and such, and eventually run out of energy. Which is pretty much the same result we today get from sport sciences and measuring athletic performance.

Except Charms and motes are about more than just athletic performance, or other easily-measurable thing. How do you measure a Linguistics Excellency? A Lore Excelly, a Sail Excellency? Never mind more complicated charms.
So you can't even measure the whole of an Exalts abilities, and any picture you'll get will be quite incomplete.


But that's not what prevents you from figuring out motes.
What prevents you from figuring out motes is that you're only measuring performance. Measuring an athletes performance tells you nothing about cell metabolism, mitochondria activity, osmosis and so on, right? Never mind about the underlying chemistry, or the physics underneath that. Just measuring an electric charge going through a nerve is really hard.
Well, for the same reason measuring an Exalts performance won't tell you anything about motes.
To measure motes, you would have to look at the physics of them. Which needs really sophisticated equipment, and underlying theories to even attempt. Equipment and knowledge that does not exist in the Second Age.

Motonic Science was comparable to quantum science for a reason - it needed really advanced, expensive research programs to actually observe (instead of just writing theories). And a single Solar - or even a circle of them - won't be building the Exalted equivalent of CERN and the LHC. Because they won't even have the tools needed to build the tools needed to build the tools - or even the theory to conceive the idea for the tools they'd need!
Sure, Benjamin Franklin could measure an electric charge. That doesn't mean he could do so in real time inside a living human being. Or that he could have built equipment to measure electron volts, and observe how charge originates from quarks and leptons. Likewise, your second age solar won't actually work with motes, and at best have a rough and inaccurate (=not matching ooc rule-measurement motes) idea of "motonic energy".
 
I'm basing my argument very strictly on those assumptions that are parts of the setting, not abstractions, notably:
  • That a Mote is a minimum quantum of magical energy that is a thing in the setting (and known to scholars).
  • That the Charms need to explicitly be taught by one character to another in order for someone to learn a different-type Charm.
Everything else is a necessary logical conclusion from the above. (Is Borgstromancy related to this concept somehow?)

As a good example, this. Why are you deciding massive setting-wide implications based on the mechanics of the Eclipse anima power, of all things? To put it in perspective, going "Because the Eclipse anima power works this way, therefore..." has about the same level of, let us say, implicit authority as "Because Scroll of the Monk mechanics imply X, therefore..." or "Because Scroll of Heroes mechanics say Y, therefore..." or "Because Sidereals 2E mechanics mandate Z, therefore...", all of which will get you, well, this reaction.

It's a terrible piece of mechanical cruft which was not balanced or thought out properly. It should not be used to talk about basic setting assumptions. Otherwise, should we assume Eclipses are supposed to be the most powerful Exalted, a step above and beyond the other, inferior, second-class Solars, and this was true in the Solar Deliberative despite all indications to the contrary?
 
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I thought writer's intent was largely the thing behind, say, the veteran Solar Essays in this very thread.

That depends on the writer. Because there was zero editorial control and most of the 2E writers had no bloody clue what they were doing, the assumption is incompetence and doing otherwise is an exception.

For example, most of the Solar Charms in the corebook were written by RSB, so taking what they imply is possible as setting information is a somewhat reasonable thing to be doing (eg, what a Solar can be expected to be capable of), whereas taking Scroll of the Monk or the mass combat system or any other mechanical disaster in the same way would be pure insanity.

Like, as an example of how ridiculous this gets if you take all the mechanics at face value, it's mechanically possible by RAW to declare mass combat with your trained pet battle-rat as a military unit and force all opposing enemies to cap their combat abilities by War and fight in long ticks while gaining massive combat bonuses from "being in close formation". Do you think this is valid setting information?
 
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@Serafina:
I'm not talking about measuring how many joules there are in a Mote. I'm talking about measuring one's Pools to an accuracy of maybe ±1 Mote. And even if you insist that Exalts cannot control their own mote-exertion for variable-cost Charms like Excellencies, there are still Charms which do allow 'button-like' activation. For instance, DB Larceny 2 Observer Awareness Method is Instant and Cost 1m.
Experiment:
The DB sids with plugged ears in an empty room, facing the windowless wall and probably blindfolded. Outside the window, there is a mortal who is facing the DB. The mortal starts with open eyes. The mortal counts to 100, then randomly either closes its eyes (or leaves them closed), or opems/keeps them open. The mortal repeats the process for, say, a hundred times. The DB also counts to 100 repeatedly, and at each hundred, activates OAM. Both are doing it routinely, without any significant differences between attempts. The result is a pseudorandom series of awareness-detections, each costing 1 mote. If both parties have a method of recording their choices/results (something that is a bit more complicated if the DB is blindfolded), then they can also start getting statistics on the Charm's reliability level.
As a good example, this. Why are you deciding massive setting-wide implications based on the mechanics of the Eclipse anima power, of all things? To put it in perspective, going "Because the Eclipse anima power works this way, therefore..." has about the same level of, let us say, implicit authority as "Because Scroll of the Monk mechanics imply X, therefore..." or "Because Scroll of Heroes mechanics say Y, therefore..." or "Because Sidereals 2E mechanics mandate Z, therefore...", all of which will get you, well, this reaction.

It's a terrible piece of mechanical cruft which was not balanced or thought out properly. It should not be used to talk about basic setting assumptions. Otherwise, should we assume Eclipses are supposed to be the most powerful Exalted, a step above and beyond the other, inferior, second-class Solars, and this was true in the Solar Deliberative despite all indications to the contrary?

Really, the fact that a Mote is an in-setting known unit of personal magical energy is actually quite logical. It's been discovered not through complex quantum mechanics, but through simplish routine experimentation that is made possible by the way charms work.

That depends on the writer. Because there was zero editorial control and most of the 2E writers had no bloody clue what they were doing, the assumption is incompetence and doing otherwise is an exception.

For example, most of the Solar Charms in the corebook were written by RSB, so taking what they imply is possible as setting information is a somewhat reasonable thing to be doing (eg, what a Solar can be expected to be capable of), whereas taking Scroll of the Monk or the mass combat system or any other mechanical disaster in the same way would be pure insanity.

Like, as an example of how ridiculous this gets if you take all the mechanics at face value, it's mechanically possible by RAW to declare mass combat with your trained pet battle-rat as a military unit and force all opposing enemies to cap their combat abilities by War and fight in long ticks while gaining massive combat bonuses from "being in close formation". Do you think this is valid setting information?
Something like Scroll of the Monk is indeed very dubious. Something like the Pet Rat Mass Combat Exploit does seem like a degenerate case that was not intended. But known motes and trainable charms seem to be two things that were pretty explicit.

As a good example, this. Why are you deciding massive setting-wide implications based on the mechanics of the Eclipse anima power, of all things? To put it in perspective, going "Because the Eclipse anima power works this way, therefore..." has about the same level of, let us say, implicit authority as "Because Scroll of the Monk mechanics imply X, therefore..." or "Because Scroll of Heroes mechanics say Y, therefore..." or "Because Sidereals 2E mechanics mandate Z, therefore...", all of which will get you, well, this reaction.

It's a terrible piece of mechanical cruft which was not balanced or thought out properly. It should not be used to talk about basic setting assumptions. Otherwise, should we assume Eclipses are supposed to be the most powerful Exalted, a step above and beyond the other, inferior, second-class Solars, and this was true in the Solar Deliberative despite all indications to the contrary?
One could argue about balance, but Eclipse Anima being part of the setting is something well-established since, IIRC, forever.
 
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Something like Scroll of the Monk is indeed very dubious. Something like the Pet Rat Mass Combat Exploit does seem like a degenerate case that was not intended. But known motes and trainable charms seem to be two things that were pretty explicit.

Yes, and it's pretty explicit that mass combat's context overrides all others too, yet we reject the One Rat Regiment as setting information because it's retarded, much like we reject Draw Forth One Shard or Void Avatar Prana.

Similarly, why are you attempting to declare how the setting works based off the Eclipse anima power?
 
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One could argue about balance, but Eclipse Anima being part of the setting is something well-established since, IIRC, forever.

The stated intent of that power is to encourage the Eclipse to go hang out with elemental courts and river spirits and celestial bureaucrats and pick up thematic crap from the people they hang out with as a roleplaying incentive. What the mechanical implementation of that power does is turn the Eclipse into a SuperSolar who can stack all the things from all the splats so as to achieve heights of cheese undreamed of by lesser Exalts, including their fellow Solars. Your argument here relies on this ability. You see the problem?

It'd be like trying to argue that the ideal frontline fighters of the Solar Host in setting history were all Twilight Essence Reactors, because that is clearly a winning strategy. Yes, sure, that's valid if Twilight Essence Reactors exist. Which they don't, because that would be retarded.
 
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Yes, and it's pretty explicit that mass combat's context overrides all others too, yet we reject the One Rat Regiment as setting information because it's retarded, much like we reject Draw Forth One Shard or Void Avatar Prana.

Similarly, why are you attempting to declare how the setting works based off the Eclipse anima power?
Because it's a fluffy concept that got a game-mechanical representation of questioned balancedness, not a questionable game-mechanic that got a retrofitted in-setting fluffy explanation. (This is also evidenced by the fact that the fluffy cross-training ability is retained in 3e, even though the game-mechanical availability of charms to Eclipses has been reportedly reduced drastically.)
 
Really, the fact that a Mote is an in-setting known unit of personal magical energy is actually quite logical. It's been discovered not through complex quantum mechanics, but through simplish routine experimentation that is made possible by the way charms work.
Your unexamined assumption is that the 'mote' that exists in-universe as a minimum unit of energy is the same 'mote' that is referred to by Charm Costs. The idea that it does is makes the setting fucking loony, and notably is not supported anywhere but in your imaginings.

Motes in your mote pools, dice pools, Ability ratings, etc, are all abstractions. They are not real, in-setting things, they are systems that we used to model things that happen in the setting.
 
Because it's a fluffy concept that got a game-mechanical representation of questioned balancedness, not a questionable game-mechanic that got a retrofitted in-setting fluffy explanation. (This is also evidenced by the fact that the fluffy cross-training ability is retained in 3e, even though the game-mechanical availability of charms to Eclipses has been reportedly reduced drastically.)

There is no difference here. If any given element has insane, setting-breaking side effects if we assume it is true, it doesn't matter whether the chicken came before the egg.

It might matter if the default assumption wasn't "the writers are mostly incompetent", so it would be possible to go "oh, maybe that setting-breaking effect is in fact how it should be!", but, well.
 
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I'm basing my argument very strictly on those assumptions that are parts of the setting, not abstractions, notably:
  • That a Mote is a minimum quantum of magical energy that is a thing in the setting (and known to scholars).
  • That the Charms need to explicitly be taught by one character to another in order for someone to learn a different-type Charm.
Point #1 fails utterly because you assume that "a mote" in-universe is the same as "a mate" in the rules.
Not only is this an assumption, it's also very unlikely considering that different rule-motes can do widely different things. If you want the term "mote" to have any meaning at all as a unit of measurement in-universe, this can't really be the case. Else you get an unit of five motes that does something vastly more energetic than another unit of five motes, and the term has just lost all meaning.

Edit: Sidereal'd.
 
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Point #1 fails utterly because you assume that "a mote" in-universe is the same as "a mate" in the rules.
Not only is this an assumption, it's also very unlikely considering that different rule-motes can do widely different things. If you want the term "mote" to have any meaning at all as a unit of measurement in-universe, this can't really be the case. Else you get an unit of five motes that does something vastly more energetic than another unit of five motes, and the term has just lost all meaning.

Edit: Sidereal'd.
Your unexamined assumption is that the 'mote' that exists in-universe as a minimum unit of energy is the same 'mote' that is referred to by Charm Costs. The idea that it does is makes the setting fucking loony, and notably is not supported anywhere but in your imaginings.

Motes in your mote pools, dice pools, Ability ratings, etc, are all abstractions. They are not real, in-setting things, they are systems that we used to model things that happen in the setting.
Ability ratings are definitely abstractions. OTOH, there are other things that are not abstractions. Like castes and motes.
That the mote is the same is quite clearly evidenced by examining the difinition of a mote and looking at how it works:
Core 18's Lexicon section said:
mote: The smallest divisible unit of Essence in the parlance
of savants and sorcerers
Note that there is no "1. ... 2. ..." or "... . Also ..." entry that is normally done if a word has two meanings. No, we are presented with the mote as an in-universe thing and then the book talks more about motes, expecting us to already know what they are. And indeed everywhere we go from then onward, the 1m is the smallest divisible unit of magical energy storage, and nothing ever costs and nothing can expend less than 1m but more than 0m.

Also, a mote of internal magical energy does not necessarily equal to a mote-equivalent of useful Work. Just like what you can do with one kilocalorie of energy can vary on all sorts of factors.
 
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Because it's a fluffy concept that got a game-mechanical representation of questioned balancedness, not a questionable game-mechanic that got a retrofitted in-setting fluffy explanation. (This is also evidenced by the fact that the fluffy cross-training ability is retained in 3e, even though the game-mechanical availability of charms to Eclipses has been reportedly reduced drastically.)
Setting aside your actual argument, the 3e version makes your example here
Also, people definitely do think in terms of 'Excellencies' about magic. Thay have to. When the Eclipse comes to her Lunar Mate and asks her to teach this trick where his prettyness suddenly doubles (okay, just becomes prettier, that's enough), the Lunar will explain how to use an Appearance Excellency. Which is not the same as explaining how to groom oneself to get a permanent boost of prettiness. You can't have Exalts and Spirits teaching each other specific Charms without Charms being thought of. And Charms are integer - either you know it, or you don't; unlike other games, Exalted does not support the concept of a half-trained magical ability.
not actually something that can happen. 3e Eclipses can only use their anima trick to learn a small subset of charms that are specifically designated as Eclipse-okay. They can learn a nightmare-curse from a ghost, or a wave-herding trick from a water elemental, or sexy sexy shapeshifting from a neomah. They can't learn their Lunar mate's Appearance Excellency, on account of how the Eclipse anima no longer lets you use charms from other Exalts. The only Excellencies an Eclipse will ever learn are the ones that are expressions of their own sun-touched arete.
 
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And indeed everywhere we go from then onward, the 1m is the smallest divisible unit of magical energy storage, and nothing ever costs and nothing can expend less than 1m but more than 0m.
And D&D doesn't allow you to deal fractional hit points of damage, and I can't spend 0.5 points on an ability with Wild Talents.

"But the system works with integers!!" means jack and shit.

No, we are presented with the mote as an in-universe thing and then the book talks more about motes, expecting us to already know what they are.
And yet, this is in stark conflict with the setting knowing about motes as a quantized element, because no one in the setting treats charm costs that way. This is the sort of thing, that if it were supposed to be a thing, would have proliferated through setting material far and wide because it should have enormous effects on how people view their own abilities and those of others.

And yet it has not.

When your assertion that the setting is intended to work in a certain way runs smack up against to how the setting actually is shown to work by the people to whom you are ascribing intent... the answer is that your assertion is wrong.
 
Setting aside your actual argument, the 3e version makes your example here
not actually something that can happen. 3e Eclipses can only use their anima trick to learn a small subset of charms that are specifically designated as Eclipse-okay. They can learn a nightmare-curse from a ghost, or a wave-herding trick from a water elemental, or sexy sexy shapeshifting from a neomah. They can't learn their Lunar mate's Appearance Excellency, on account of how the Eclipse anima no longer lets you use charms from other Exalts. The only Excellencies an Eclipse will ever learn are the ones that are expressions of their own sun-touched arete.
Note that I'm mostly working in a 2e/2½e framework. I only brought up 3e at all as a proof that charm cross-training is meant to be a fluffy in-setting concept that is in search of a balanced rules mechanisation, not an abstract rule in search of a setting justification.

There is no difference here. If any given element has insane, setting-breaking side effects if we assume it is true, it doesn't matter whether the chicken came before the egg.

It might matter if the default assumption wasn't "the writers are mostly incompetent", so it would be possible to go "oh, maybe that setting-breaking effect is in fact how it should be!", but, well.
I guess this boils down to "No playing the setting fluff as written" once again. Yes, the setting is far from perfect, but that doesn't make the setting not be what it is.

And D&D doesn't allow you to deal fractional hit points of damage, and I can't spend 0.5 points on an ability with Wild Talents.

"But the system works with integers!!" means jack and shit.
A hit point is not canonically an in-setting unit of health that scholars talk about. A mote is.

And yet, this is in stark conflict with the setting knowing about motes as a quantized element, because no one in the setting treats charm costs that way. This is the sort of thing, that if it were supposed to be a thing, would have proliferated through setting material far and wide because it should have enormous effects on how people view their own abilities and those of others.

And yet it has not.

When your assertion that the setting is intended to work in a certain way runs smack up against to how the setting actually is shown to work by the people to whom you are ascribing intent... the answer is that your assertion is wrong.
My assertion is that the setting is defined to work this way based on the way it is described in the core.
 
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I guess this boils down to "No playing the setting fluff as written" once again. Yes, the setting is far from perfect, but that doesn't make the setting not be what it is.
No, it runs into "the setting isn't actually written that way," as people have repeatedly pointed out. The mote as the smallest unit of essence is a thing in-setting (as a piece of arcane lore studied and talked about by First Age savants akin to modern physicists talking about the Higgs-Boson particle, and maybe some Second Age sorcerers still discuss bastardised versions of this lore that have survived and mutated in the intervening centuries and apocalypses), and it is also a system term, but these are not necessarily the same quantities.
 
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