General Exalted Thread

[Aleph]

The issue with them is that two of three are vanishingly rare lost technology that will often be broken and inoperable when you find it, and the third is available only to a limited group within an already-tiny limited group. There are probably only a few dozen Adamant Sorcerers in all Creation. DB-operable weapons and Shogunate WMDs are going to be far more widespread.

 

[rikalous]

Calling them 'blargs' would merely play on the onomatopoeia, giving a generic bad thing impression. But using 'demon' implies that not only that the publically-accepted ideas about them are the sort of europeoid bad thing, but also that the context in which the word sprung, and the bad traits for which the demons are seen as bad things, are Greco-Abrahamic in flavour. It's the difference between using 'rogue' and 'ninja', or 'warrior' and 'bogatyr', or 'prison' and 'gulag'. The former in each pair a descriptor which can still be subverted. The latter, in addition, also establishes a surrounding cultural framework and context; it carries more baggage than the former.
'Underworld' is a good subversible word: it kinda implies this broad concept of a world of the dead lying below Creation, only turns out that it's more like a reflection existing in parallel of Creation. But if you use, say, 'cossack' in place of 'soldier', suddenly I know that the setting surrounding said warrior has cavalry and gunpowder and distillation and rebellious attitude.
There's a difference between making the public opinion in a setting untrue, and misleading readers about what the public opinion is.

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The difference here is that if you write about these people you call "cossacks" and they're nothing like the real ones then history buffs laugh at you. If you write about these spirits you call "demons" and they're nothing like the real ones then no shit they aren't because there are no provably real ones. Stuff from mythology is up for grabs. That's why we can have things called "elementals" that aren't Paracelsus's gnomes, undines, sylphs, and salamanders.

Also, "demon" being used to refer to critters from outside Abrahamic mythology happens all the time, with oni and so forth.

 

[Revlid]

There's actually a story that suggests that Marvel civilians' mutantaphobia is the fault of a sentient bacterial colony who predates multicelled life and thinks of mutants as competition that it needs to wipe out. Comics are weird.

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That was the time Magneto got addicted to drugs and pretended to be a Chinese man pretending to be himself, but it was actually the Chinese man's evil twin pretending to be Magneto, if I recall correctly.

 

[EarthScorpion]

The West can always use more features.

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Well, I also went "You know what, there should probably be more Earth close to the pole of Earth" and stuck a continent roughly shaped like the Americas into the empty space.

(The Realm has a massive fortified area around the totally-not-Panama-Canal because if a hostile controlled it, they could both shut off access to the Far West and also access the metropolitan Realm)

I take it you're using a different caste-mark for the Slayer?

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Kerisgame caste marks are nearly the Solar ones in green. Nearly, but not quite. They slightly warp based on the Infernal's Yozis. A Fiend who favours TED, for example, might have the outer rim of their Eclipse symbol shaped like an ouroboros rather than a neat circle.

But that's basically just cosmetic and a legacy of how castes really, really don't matter much for Kerisgame. Remember, Infernals get two Favoured Yozis and no Caste Yozis - Keris favours Adorjan and Kimbery because of who she is, not because of the fact she has a corrupted Night Exaltation. Now, yes, a lot of Defilers, for example, will favour SWLIHN - but that's because of the kind of person who becomes a Twilight, not a direct link.

Seeing another Infernal at work was pretty neat. Organizing a nation way out in the sticks (as far as the Realm is concerned) is a worthwhile project, though I wonder how he's branding everyone if that's Magnanimous Warning Glyph. Or did he only tag that one girl?

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Fealty Acknowledging Audience

Ah, I should probably point out here. Sasi isn't his ex. She's his current. They're together, just separated by work. Keris is her mistress. Hence the awkwardness.

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Let's put it this way.

If MalFeasBook was a thing, their relationship status would be "It's Complicated". And was like that even before Keris showed up, because Sasi also still loves her husband despite the fact that he's a Dragonblood who would try to kill her on sight and Testolagh has his own baggage related to his tragic Doomed Home Village and aye aye aye, Infernals why you so telenovella.

 

[vicky_molokh]

The difference here is that if you write about these people you call "cossacks" and they're nothing like the real ones then history buffs laugh at you. If you write about these spirits you call "demons" and they're nothing like the real ones then no shit they aren't because there are no provably real ones. Stuff from mythology is up for grabs. That's why we can have things called "elementals" that aren't Paracelsus's gnomes, undines, sylphs, and salamanders.

Also, "demon" being used to refer to critters from outside Abrahamic mythology happens all the time, with oni and so forth.

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Using 'demon' in place of 'oni' is exactly the sort of context-shifting that I'm warning of. Paracelsus' elementals are victims of this too, albeit much more diluted than dæmons; both elementals and dæmons carry European cultural context with them.
(Also, it's not like mythic bogatyrs really existed. And yet if it gets used in place of 'warrior', 'hero', or, say, of 'wuxia', it suddenly shifts the perceived surrounding culture.)

 

[Hazard]

Or you can take a step back and realise that the idea of 'demon' is 'evil spirit from hell' is rather more modern than 'demon' meaning 'harmful spirit not aligned with Heaven.'

Exalted's concept of demons has far more to do with the latter than the former.

 

[vicky_molokh]

Or you can take a step back and realise that the idea of 'demon' is 'evil spirit from hell' is rather more modern than 'demon' meaning 'harmful spirit not aligned with Heaven.'

Exalted's concept of demons has far more to do with the latter than the former.

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Actually, I'm aware of it meaning a more neutral-to-positive reference to a (nature or similar) spirit. And I'm all in favour of words retaining their original meanings. But apparently most of humanity's understanding of language doesn't work that way, and the dominant usage of the word is the way they tend to understand the word. Which is how we ended up with Exalted dæmons being understood by some authors the way they were understood and with people in charge of choosing whether to greenlight a given version of the manuscript into print actually greenlighting said manuscripts in the form in which we now know them.

This is actually why I appreciate coming up with new or at least extremely obscure names (e.g. Yozis, Neomah etc.) for things that are supposed to keep a distance from our cultural preconceptions and prejudices.

 

[Hazard]

Which is how we ended up with Exalted dæmons being understood by some authors the way they were understood and with people in charge of choosing whether to greenlight a given version of the manuscript into print actually greenlighting said manuscripts in the form in which we now know them.

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This is a matter of the setting developer not properly communicating with the writers. I've always felt that Exalted was supposed to create that culturally conditioned response to demons on the first brush, with only after reading further into the history and society of Malfeas causing the realisation that while, yes, demons are not exactly a good thing to have run around in Creation they are not by definition evil so much as crazy and/or another culture entirely.

This is, likewise, another subversion of standard fantasy tropes.

 

[Kiyo]

Actually, I'm aware of it meaning a more neutral-to-positive reference to a (nature or similar) spirit. And I'm all in favour of words retaining their original meanings. But apparently most of humanity's understanding of language doesn't work that way, and the dominant usage of the word is the way they tend to understand the word. Which is how we ended up with Exalted dæmons being understood by some authors the way they were understood and with people in charge of choosing whether to greenlight a given version of the manuscript into print actually greenlighting said manuscripts in the form in which we now know them.

This is actually why I appreciate coming up with new or at least extremely obscure names (e.g. Yozis, Neomah etc.) for things that are supposed to keep a distance from our cultural preconceptions and prejudices.

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Um, I think I've seen you do this several times now, and it's kind of... It's demons, not dæmons.

As for your argument, Exalted has had rather poor communication between writers, that's why we get stuff like the first two chapters of MoEP: Infernals.

 

[vicky_molokh]

As for your argument, Exalted has had rather poor communication between writers, that's why we get stuff like the first two chapters of MoEP: Infernals.

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This is a matter of the setting developer not properly communicating with the writers. I've always felt that Exalted was supposed to create that culturally conditioned response to demons on the first brush, with only after reading further into the history and society of Malfeas causing the realisation that while, yes, demons are not exactly a good thing to have run around in Creation they are not by definition evil so much as crazy and/or another culture entirely.

This is, likewise, another subversion of standard fantasy tropes.

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I understand that WW is not a very well-organised company, but there's only so much that can be explained by a momentary misunderstanding: at some point the Exalted Line Editor (or whatever they call it in WW) has to read the manuscript and make a decision whether it is appropriate for printing/publishing, and very clearly we have evidence that the decision was made in favour of publishing MoEP:I.

I understand that Exalted demons are not so much inherently evil as broken into being evil. IIRC Jenna Moran said something like this, plus there's also this article:

Many misconceptions still linger about the authors of
the universe.
The most offensive of these: that the souls of the conquered
Yozis were always demons, and that the Yozis were always Yozis.
[ . . . ]
The devas of our enemies were not always the cleanest or
most beatific of things; rarely does one find any being possessed
of such majesty as the souls of the Emerald Mother. But they
were not demons before or during the Primordial War. Most of
them were mightier, loftier. They were pure, even when wicked.
They were magnanimous. Until they knew defeat, they walked
taller than the mountains. It was defeat that compounded their
fall, twisting them in a devolution of nature and making them
hideous.

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So, that indicates that the term 'demon' is not only political, but also ethical/psychological, indicating a fall.

 

[EarthScorpion]

This is actually why I appreciate coming up with new or at least extremely obscure names (e.g. Yozis, Neomah etc.) for things that are supposed to keep a distance from our cultural preconceptions and prejudices.

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You keep on ignoring that they're not supposed to keep a distance.

You are playing an inhabitant of Creation. You may, if you are educated in the Occult to a mortal level or if you're an Immaculate, know of the hellish realm of Malfeas, where the lying demon princes were bound forever by the gods and mighty heroes. From inside their jail, schem the demon princes (like the fearsome Ligier whose green fire burns and sickens and whose pride is such that he will merely send his sword to fight entire armies viewing them as beneath him) and the demon lords (like Octavian, who thrice has threatened to destroy Great Forks and only been turned back at great cost) and the lesser demons (red-furred man-eating monsters and monster-making succubae who steal the seed and flesh of intemperate men and women). They are monsters who tempt the prayer of mortals, and only through faith and strength can their wicked influence be prevented.

Exalted demons look like normal demons when viewed from a distance. Ligier is a Luciferian prideful prince of the demons. Octavian is a conquering demonic tyrant who rides a wasp and whose touch blights the land. Blood apes are man-eating monsters. Neomah make hellspawn from their trade. Your Exalted characters are meant to treat them as classical demons if they have low Occult.

Sorcerers are weird, strange people because sorcerers know the truth and act like employing man-eating red-furred apes is just a thing you do, when blood apes love eating human bones and are fucking terrifying ape-demons with the temperament of the common chimpanzee. Sorcerers know some of the hidden truths behind the world, and so they're not quite normal, even among Exalts.

This is how you're expected to play. Low Occult people who are told by a god that a demon has escaped from Hell and is making a cult for itself are meant to react like... well, normal fantasy characters who are told that. Most people in-universe do not know the truth of the setting. Even Mnemon, who can use Demon of the Second Circle is a devout immaculate, because who the fuck would trust a demon when they tell you everything you believe is built on a lie? Almost no one knows the history of the setting, and if you ask demons you'll get a warped version because... well, they have their own view on things and all your First Circles and a lot of your Second Circles weren't actually alive for the PW.

 

[Dark Lord Bob]

I understand that WW is not a very well-organised company, but there's only so much that can be explained by a momentary misunderstanding: at some point the Exalted Line Editor (or whatever they call it in WW) has to read the manuscript and make a decision whether it is appropriate for printing/publishing, and very clearly we have evidence that the decision was made in favour of publishing MoEP:I.

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They published to a schedule, so if they got something wrong they still published. The fae have weird names because the writers outright ignored the developers outlines and they had to do something to differentiate them so they added exotic names with what little time they had left. IIRC The 2e Sidereal charms literally aren't written for the 2e ruleset because they were copied and pasted from the 1e book.

 

[Imrix]

I understand that WW is not a very well-organised company, but there's only so much that can be explained by a momentary misunderstanding: at some point the Exalted Line Editor (or whatever they call it in WW) has to read the manuscript and make a decision whether it is appropriate for printing/publishing, and very clearly we have evidence that the decision was made in favour of publishing MoEP:I.

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As it happens, no, somebody didn't have to do that, because John Chambers (the line developer for Exalted 2e) all but abandoned it to work on Scion, because he was terrible at his job.

 

[TheLastOne]

You keep on ignoring that they're not supposed to keep a distance.

You are playing an inhabitant of Creation. You may, if you are educated in the Occult to a mortal level or if you're an Immaculate, know of the hellish realm of Malfeas, where the lying demon princes were bound forever by the gods and mighty heroes. From inside their jail, schem the demon princes (like the fearsome Ligier whose green fire burns and sickens and whose pride is such that he will merely send his sword to fight entire armies viewing them as beneath him) and the demon lords (like Octavian, who thrice has threatened to destroy Great Forks and only been turned back at great cost) and the lesser demons (red-furred man-eating monsters and monster-making succubae who steal the seed and flesh of intemperate men and women). They are monsters who tempt the prayer of mortals, and only through faith and strength can their wicked influence be prevented.

Exalted demons look like normal demons when viewed from a distance. Ligier is a Luciferian prideful prince of the demons. Octavian is a conquering demonic tyrant who rides a wasp and whose touch blights the land. Blood apes are man-eating monsters. Neomah make hellspawn from their trade. Your Exalted characters are meant to treat them as classical demons if they have low Occult.

Sorcerers are weird, strange people because sorcerers know the truth and act like employing man-eating red-furred apes is just a thing you do, when blood apes love eating human bones and are fucking terrifying ape-demons with the temperament of the common chimpanzee. Sorcerers know some of the hidden truths behind the world, and so they're not quite normal, even among Exalts.

This is how you're expected to play. Low Occult people who are told by a god that a demon has escaped from Hell and is making a cult for itself are meant to react like... well, normal fantasy characters who are told that. Most people in-universe do not know the truth of the setting. Even Mnemon, who can use Demon of the Second Circle is a devout immaculate, because who the fuck would trust a demon when they tell you everything you believe is built on a lie? Almost no one knows the history of the setting, and if you ask demons you'll get a warped version because... well, they have their own view on things and all your First Circles and a lot of your Second Circles weren't actually alive for the PW.

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^
|

This.

Double this.

Everyone needs to internalize this, and not just for Demons, and not just for Exalt.

I see far, far to many people, players, writers, assuming perfect knowledge. Hell, assuming good knowledge.

More then that, I see people assuming things appear clear cut even when they are. Like, why the hell would you assume anyone can speak in a non-biased way about a touchy subject. Pick a real world subject that's controversial (don't really, we don't need a derail). Watch people on opposite sides pull out real world data, dismiss their opponents real world data, and generally make a hash of the facts... Now pick something that happened long ago, that wasn't properly or fully recorded. Pick something where we're sure people lied, but we don't know what's lie and what's true. Try and get a clear picture of the 'facts' when no one anywhere (trustworthy) knows them.

And remember that we all would have "ones" and "twos" in a dozen limited "specialties", that the modern world and our education system has made us far more knowledgeable and broadly (though not deeply) learned then pretty much any mortal scholar in creation, with access to informational tools that haven't existed since the first age.

Like, I just made a ghostblooded character born from an ancestor cult. To him, the dead and the living intermingling is natural and proper, a soul passing straight to Lethe is a sign of moral weakness, and the idea that ghosts are unnatural and not part of the proper order of the world is so offensive that he would punch you in the face if you said it.

He also has Occult 3, and is a Terrestrial Circle sorcerer.

Lots of things he thinks are wrong. Not wrong in a 'Well, that's just your opinion, man" way. Wrong in a "Luminous Ether" way. He's still more knowledgeable on the subject then nine out of ten people.

 

[vicky_molokh]

You keep on ignoring that they're not supposed to keep a distance.

You are playing an inhabitant of Creation. You may, if you are educated in the Occult to a mortal level or if you're an Immaculate, know of the hellish realm of Malfeas, where the lying demon princes were bound forever by the gods and mighty heroes. From inside their jail, schem the demon princes (like the fearsome Ligier whose green fire burns and sickens and whose pride is such that he will merely send his sword to fight entire armies viewing them as beneath him) and the demon lords (like Octavian, who thrice has threatened to destroy Great Forks and only been turned back at great cost) and the lesser demons (red-furred man-eating monsters and monster-making succubae who steal the seed and flesh of intemperate men and women). They are monsters who tempt the prayer of mortals, and only through faith and strength can their wicked influence be prevented.

Exalted demons look like normal demons when viewed from a distance. Ligier is a Luciferian prideful prince of the demons. Octavian is a conquering demonic tyrant who rides a wasp and whose touch blights the land. Blood apes are man-eating monsters. Neomah make hellspawn from their trade. Your Exalted characters are meant to treat them as classical demons if they have low Occult.

Sorcerers are weird, strange people because sorcerers know the truth and act like employing man-eating red-furred apes is just a thing you do, when blood apes love eating human bones and are fucking terrifying ape-demons with the temperament of the common chimpanzee. Sorcerers know some of the hidden truths behind the world, and so they're not quite normal, even among Exalts.

This is how you're expected to play. Low Occult people who are told by a god that a demon has escaped from Hell and is making a cult for itself are meant to react like... well, normal fantasy characters who are told that. Most people in-universe do not know the truth of the setting. Even Mnemon, who can use Demon of the Second Circle is a devout immaculate, because who the fuck would trust a demon when they tell you everything you believe is built on a lie? Almost no one knows the history of the setting, and if you ask demons you'll get a warped version because... well, they have their own view on things and all your First Circles and a lot of your Second Circles weren't actually alive for the PW.

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Perhaps I'm indeed underestimating the misconception of occultless mortals in areas with strong Immaculate propaganda.

However, there's a different side to it too: people who lack the deep knowledge, but still have the right superficial basics.
For example, let's take the typical mortal of Great Forks (because I'm playing a Great Forker and so read up on the city). The city has Occult 3 and +3 Supernatural Etiquette on top of it, and is renown for its universities and libraries (and literate citizens). This means that the professors (whatever you call them in Exalted) know their barzinoi from their barzinai and their shimei from their shin giri - and these sorts of savoir-faire involve quite some understanding of the soul hierarchies and respective characteristics of its members. Now, of course a professor knows stuff that a mere commoner doesn't. But knowledge does tend to rub off, and this tends to result in commoners who lack a professionally-useful level of occult knowledge, but at least have a generic idea about things that don't require any serious study to understand. For an analogy in our world: I'm no physicist, and I can't write the rocket equation, nor calculate a Schwartschild radius (without using reference materials), but I have a general idea what delta-V is (and why it matters more than acceleration for long space travel) and that black holes form when matter becomes concentrated in a limited space with a certain overwhelming ratio of mass to radius (and that black holes evaporate, and some other facts about them). This is because getting a good idea of the basics takes significantly less time, effort and books than getting even a one-dot deep understanding.
And Exalts are in an even better position than that: they also lack the penalties for not having dots in a skill, so they can intuit things that they haven't been directly taught.
Now, someone with the Barbarian Flaw would certainly be in a worse position, not having an education at all.

But my point about the word 'demon' having Europeoid connotations was not so focused on them being evil, but rather on the cultural context in which Europeans tend to understand the word: it carries either a more modern Abramoflavoured connotation of a dark entity that is easily repelled by those who just have faith in the power of light and ask nicely, or a more ancient Grecoflavoured spirit entity that is much more neutral and less alien than Exalted demons seem to be.

As it happens, no, somebody didn't have to do that, because John Chambers (the line developer for Exalted 2e) all but abandoned it to work on Scion, because he was terrible at his job.

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They published to a schedule, so if they got something wrong they still published. The fae have weird names because the writers outright ignored the developers outlines and they had to do something to differentiate them so they added exotic names with what little time they had left. IIRC The 2e Sidereal charms literally aren't written for the 2e ruleset because they were copied and pasted from the 1e book.

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That . . . sounds weird. I've seen very much the same problem, and 'just push through' is not how it's approached. I mean, SJG also started their GURPS 4e project on a schedule, and the schedule was ridiculously optimistic, and they rushed out Magic and Ultra-Tech which were criticised pretty much for the same things as you criticise Sidereals for. And so the schedule was measured and found non-viable, and replaced with a more viable schedule. And to this day I keep hearing insider comments like 'the CEO considers the book not good enough yet, so work continues and publishing is delayed' (not literal words, but roughly this meaning).
@Imrix, you seem to be saying that nobody makes the decision whether to publish the book or keep improving it . . . but you also sound as if this Chambers person was the one who okayed it as-is. Was Chambers the CEO (or equivalent) at that moment? If not, why was there no higher oversight, particularly given that it was not the only book to turn out botched like that?
I mean, WW seems like a rather successful-back-in-the-day company, and it seems implausible for such a successful company to have nobody knowing what they're doing (or at least knowing enough to encourage a review of global plans) on a whole game line.

 

[TheLastOne]

Perhaps I'm indeed underestimating the misconception of occultless mortals in areas with strong Immaculate propaganda.

However, there's a different side to it too: people who lack the deep knowledge, but still have the right superficial basics.
For example, let's take the typical mortal of Great Forks (because I'm playing a Great Forker and so read up on the city). The city has Occult 3 and +3 Supernatural Etiquette on top of it, and is renown for its universities and libraries (and literate citizens). This means that the professors (whatever you call them in Exalted) know their barzinoi from their barzinai and their shimei from their shin giri - and these sorts of savoir-faire involve quite some understanding of the soul hierarchies and respective characteristics of its members. Now, of course a professor knows stuff that a mere commoner doesn't. But knowledge does tend to rub off, and this tends to result in commoners who lack a professionally-useful level of occult knowledge, but at least have a generic idea about things that don't require any serious study to understand. For an analogy in our world: I'm no physicist, and I can't write the rocket equation, nor calculate a Schwartschild radius (without using reference materials), but I have a general idea what delta-V is (and why it matters more than acceleration for long space travel) and that black holes form when matter becomes concentrated in a limited space with a certain overwhelming ratio of mass to radius (and that black holes evaporate, and some other facts about them). This is because getting a good idea of the basics takes significantly less time, effort and books than getting even a one-dot deep understanding.
And Exalts are in an even better position than that: they also lack the penalties for not having dots in a skill, so they can intuit things that they haven't been directly taught.
Now, someone with the Barbarian Flaw would certainly be in a worse position, not having an education at all.

But my point about the word 'demon' having Europeoid connotations was not so focused on them being evil, but rather on the cultural context in which Europeans tend to understand the word: it carries either a more modern Abramoflavoured connotation of a dark entity that is easily repelled by those who just have faith in the power of light and ask nicely, or a more ancient Grecoflavoured spirit entity that is much more neutral and less alien than Exalted demons seem to be.

Click to shrink...

Celestial Circle Sorcerers, who theoretically could have Occult 4 but will have Occult 5 (because fives are too cheap and easy), and has more then a century of experence, has personally dealt with powerful demons...

Might not know as much as you think a peasant in Great Forks will know. You need to adjust your expectations downward.

And Demons do suffer when they face the Holy. It's just that it turns out Holy means you've pissed off an entity capable of turning on various creation defending functions that turn the world against you. It's a political statement. One of the great things they introduced in 3E is a bunch of charms let Solars treat anyone they hate as a Creature of Darkness. It's great, because that's what it is. You suffer the metaphysical enmity of the Sun.

And no, your character probably doesn't have a deep understanding of that either.

 

[Cosar]

Something important to realize is that while the basics are simple to know, what counts as the basics changes greatly over time. Look at the 1800's: germ theory, what can now be considered something so basic that you don't need any dots in Medicine to know (at least in terms of concepts), wasn't even considered as a valid high level theory. It only became such after 1860, with the works of Pasteur and Koch and others.

Creation is similar, in someways. Sure, they had better knowledge. At one point, they probably had more knowledge of the Yozi than had ever been gathered by non-Yozi. But then the Usurpation happened, and centuries of conflict and historical revision under the Shogunate, and then the Contagion, and the wars in the current, fallen age. What was once known, even commonly known, is now a sign that you are a scholar among scholars, if it can be known at all.

 

[vicky_molokh]

Celestial Circle Sorcerers, who theoretically could have Occult 4 but will have Occult 5 (because fives are too cheap and easy), and has more then a century of experence, has personally dealt with powerful demons...

Might not know as much as you think a peasant in Great Forks will know. You need to adjust your expectations downward.

And Demons do suffer when they face the Holy. It's just that it turns out Holy means you've pissed off an entity capable of turning on various creation defending functions that turn the world against you. It's a political statement. One of the great things they introduced in 3E is a bunch of charms let Solars treat anyone they hate as a Creature of Darkness. It's great, because that's what it is. You suffer the metaphysical enmity of the Sun.

And no, your character probably doesn't have a deep understanding of that either.

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The Holy keyword is indeed an interesting political tool because one can petition UCS to add some category of entities (in fact, a new Primordial and all corresponding devas!) to the list of Creatures of Darkness. But it takes special Charms to be able to do Holy attacks against them, and one has to actually beat their DVs and hope they don't have a damage-reducer (as opposed to a soak) and so on.

And indeed my character is unlikely to have any deep understanding, but I'm specifically talking about the more basic understandings, short, simple basics that don't require deep study, equivalent to our world's 'black holes are black because their gravity sorta bends light towards them' and 'it is safe to plug in a powertool into the socket, but please do not touch the pins of a plug when pushing it into a socket because then electricity will pass through you to the ground and hurt you'. This is of particular interest specifically in places where deep knowledge exist, and thus can be distilled into short, consolidated bits of shallow-but-correct-and-useful-and-easy-to-remember bits of knowledge. For instance, all the data on spirits and spell lists and charms and exalt types and the like takes up much less text than a typical student reads throughout a five-year university course.

Something important to realize is that while the basics are simple to know, what counts as the basics changes greatly over time. Look at the 1800's: germ theory, what can now be considered something so basic that you don't need any dots in Medicine to know (at least in terms of concepts), wasn't even considered as a valid high level theory. It only became such after 1860, with the works of Pasteur and Koch and others.

Creation is similar, in someways. Sure, they had better knowledge. At one point, they probably had more knowledge of the Yozi than had ever been gathered by non-Yozi. But then the Usurpation happened, and centuries of conflict and historical revision under the Shogunate, and then the Contagion, and the wars in the current, fallen age. What was once known, even commonly known, is now a sign that you are a scholar among scholars, if it can be known at all.

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Different standards of basics due to something not being discovered in the setting yet/at all are certainly a thing, but it's somewhat perpendicular to the idea of distilling the knowledge that already is discovered and available in the setting/region.
For instance, if Medicine 5 in the modern world is high stuff like knowing some of the results of mapping/analysing the human genome, then Medicine 0 (even with the extra -2 that mortals get if they have no dots in an Ability) is still enough to know there's this human genome project and that its goal is to map different genes and sequences and figure how they're related to traits expressed in human organisms.
Likewise, a city where 3 Occult + 3 Supernatural Etiquette is not unheard of in the right circles, the distilled version of that knowledge has to diffuse through the general education and exchange of wisdom of the city's citizens.

 

[FaeGlade Plural]

Something important to realize is that while the basics are simple to know, what counts as the basics changes greatly over time. Look at the 1800's: germ theory, what can now be considered something so basic that you don't need any dots in Medicine to know, wasn't even considered as a valid high level theory. It only became such after 1860, with the works of Pasteur and Koch and others.

Creation is similar, in someways. Sure, they had better knowledge. At one point, they probably had more knowledge of the Yozi than had ever been gathered by non-Yozi. But then the Usurpation happened, and centuries of conflict and historical revision under the Shogunate, and then the Contagion, and the wars in the current, fallen age. What was once known, even commonly known, is now a sign that you are a scholar among scholars, if it can be known at all.

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This.

Your ability rating represents how in-depth your knowledge is.
In the High First Age, a lot of stuff was basic knowledge. Not in-depth at all. It was probably common knowledge how the Underworld was created, for example.
In this age, you would need a pretty high ability to have such knowledge.

Now, that doesn't mean that someone with Occult 1 in the High First Age knew more than a current-day person with Occult 5. They were lacking in-depth understanding - they knew a few bullet points which happened to be accurate. But the Occult 5 person is much better at understanding the underlying principles, and putting them to practical use.
To illustrate that, just ask yourself how well you actually understand germ theory. Or electricity, or any such common knowledge. Chances are, not very well even though your basic knowledge of them is much higher than of someone 300 years ago.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Perhaps I'm indeed underestimating the misconception of occultless mortals in areas with strong Immaculate propaganda.

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No. Any mortals, and most Exalts. Creation is fallen. Knowledge is lost. Unless you are a specific expert in the field of demonology, you will not know much about the Demon Realm - and if you are an expert, you damn well better justify it with your background because that is not common knowledge and neither gods nor most polities want people outside their control just summoning demons.

Because studying demons means you will, inevitably, learn how easy it is to beckon demons.

Beckon (Demon Species) only requires Occult 3 - that's Occult 2 and a Speciality in "Demonology". Any learned occultist can learn how to summon a kind of demon if they just study the field and find the spell in question. Which means that the knowledge has to be controlled, or people will unleash unbound demons on Creation. If you're lucky, they'll be a stupid demon who'll eat their summoner. If you're unlucky, they'll be a smart demon who will come to an arrangement with their beckoner because that gives them a way out of Malfeas whenever they want it - and suddenly you've got a brand new demon cult with a First Circle backing it, which can go toe to toe with small divine cults.

That's why knowledge on demons has to be controlled in Creation. Because it's easy to unleash First Circles on the world with the level of knowledge you need to recognise First Circles.

For example, let's take the typical mortal of Great Forks (because I'm playing a Great Forker and so read up on the city). The city has Occult 3 and +3 Supernatural Etiquette on top of it, and is renown for its universities and libraries (and literate citizens). This means that the professors (whatever you call them in Exalted) know their barzinoi from their barzinai and their shimei from their shin giri - and these sorts of savoir-faire involve quite some understanding of the soul hierarchies and respective characteristics of its members.

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The Creation Ruling Mandate system is terrible and I afford it no respect at all. Basing your argument on that is laughable. No, it's stupid to give the typical mortal of Great Forks Occult 3 and a +3 speciality.

Yes, Great Forks as a city as a whole probably has some occultists in it which have more knowledge about demons. Not the average peasant. And even the occultists will probably have the knowledge in the style of Mediaeval occultists. Which is to say, they'll have read books which say things like:

"The demons that dwell in the Demon Sea that is called Kaimbery, Kimmberry, or Kimberlei by the damned are split into two kinds. Those which assume a male aspect are called the barzinoi, while those which assume a female aspect are called the barzinai. Some demon breeds exist within both the barzinoi and the barzinai, but others exist only within one. Few demon princes that dwell within the sea possess both male and female aspects, and it is believed that the toxic waters of the Hellish Ocean hate the conflation of aspects. This is related to the way that the magical acid vitriol - from which the sea is made - reduces all things to their base state."

After all, mediaeval monks obsessed about demonic hierarchies and ranks and populated things like the Ars Goetia with knowledge. In fact, the demonology textbooks of Great Forks probably resemble this page on the Ars Goetia.

Hell, something like this could basically be ported straight in:

Article:

Leraje (also Leraie, Leraikha, Leraye, Loray, Oray) is a mighty Great Marquis of Hell who has thirty legions of demons under his power. He causes great battles and disputes, and makes gangrene wounds caused by arrows.

He is depicted as a gallant and handsome archer clad in green, carrying a bow and quiver.

But this isn't some great thing of metaphysics. These are books on specific demons and observed phenomena. Great Forks does not have the knowledge of the High First Age, and it's specialised, localised, and not common even there.

And Exalts are in an even better position than that: they also lack the penalties for not having dots in a skill, so they can intuit things that they haven't been directly taught.

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Nope. I strongly disagree. I absolutely reject the idea that the map is the territory, and I would not let a character who has not been in the position to study demonology to "just intuit" things about the Demon Realm to that detail. They'll be able to work out some things - but they'll be the insights of a prodigy on the evidence of their senses, not learned knowledge.

To put it another way, if your Occult 4 Eastern shaman who knows all about the spirits of the Eastern woods and the elementals and fae who stalk this place started asking questions about how the circles of demons work, I'd give things like "Demons are divided by power. The lowest demons are weak things akin to the lesser elementals, but the mightiest are said to be even more powerful than the gods" and "Some say that the demon realm approaches the mortal world during Calibration". Which are astute observations he might have come across or put together from things he's seen in Calibration.

He'd actually need to put work into learning about demons before he got more. Skills cannot pull knowledge from nowhere.

 

[Walker of the Yellow Path]

And indeed my character is unlikely to have any deep understanding, but I'm specifically talking about the more basic understandings, short, simple basics that don't require deep study, equivalent to our world's 'black holes are black because their gravity sorta bends light towards them' and 'it is safe to plug in a powertool into the socket, but please do not touch the pins of a plug when pushing it into a socket because then electricity will pass through you to the ground and hurt you'. This is of particular interest specifically in places where deep knowledge exist, and thus can be distilled into short, consolidated bits of shallow-but-correct-and-useful-and-easy-to-remember bits of knowledge. For instance, all the data on spirits and spell lists and charms and exalt types and the like takes up much less text than a typical student reads throughout a five-year university course.

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Honestly, the reason most of us have those basics is because the general mandatory education systems in most First World countries leave us all with a minimum of Lore and [Insert Modern day Occult Equivalent here] 1 or 2, with specialties based on what we pursued, and generally more since higher education and college requires you to leave it with specialties relating to what we study.

 

[Imrix]

@Imrix, you seem to be saying that nobody makes the decision whether to publish the book or keep improving it . . . but you also sound as if this Chambers person was the one who okayed it as-is. Was Chambers the CEO (or equivalent) at that moment? If not, why was there no higher oversight, particularly given that it was not the only book to turn out botched like that?

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Most of White Wolf was busy having their talent pool being pillaged by CCP studios, and what was left over was primarily focused on the World of Darkness, which was and is their primary product. As a result, John Chambers as line developer was the final authority within WW for all things Exalted. In turn, Chambers' attitude was apparently that writers work best if they're left unfettered so the creative juices can flow, so he maintained a very laissez-faire attitude to his position as developer. In practical terms he abandoned Exalted save for rubber-stamping whatever books crossed his desk, with predictable results.

And indeed my character is unlikely to have any deep understanding, but I'm specifically talking about the more basic understandings, short, simple basics that don't require deep study,

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Yeah, TLO is saying your examples are not basics.

 

[azoicennead]

For instance, all the data on spirits and spell lists and charms and exalt types and the like takes up much less text than a typical student reads throughout a five-year university course.

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This is because we're getting an incredibly simplified version as seen through the lens of the Exalted system. We don't need to know how to manipulate our Essence to cast Death of Obsidian Butterflies, we just need to spend 15m, 1wp and take a Shape Terrestrial Sorcery action. We don't get a history of various times and places where dogs of the unbroken earth have played significant roles, or an in-depth examination of counter-measures to take against them, just that they exist and some sacrifices that appease them.

 

[TheLastOne]

Beckon (Demon Species) only requires Occult 3 - that's Occult 2 and a Speciality in "Demonology". Any learned occultist can learn how to summon a kind of demon if they just study the field and find the spell in question. Which means that the knowledge has to be controlled, or people will unleash unbound demons on Creation. If you're lucky, they'll be a stupid demon who'll eat their summoner. If you're unlucky, they'll be a smart demon who will come to an arrangement with their beckoner because that gives them a way out of Malfeas whenever they want it - and suddenly you've got a brand new demon cult with a First Circle backing it, which can go toe to toe with small divine cults.

That's why knowledge on demons has to be controlled in Creation. Because it's easy to unleash First Circles on the world with the level of knowledge you need to recognise First Circles.

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I would actually say this is a problem, because it is too damn easy in second edition, easy enough that... well, every village should have one person who knows how to call up a demon willing to listen. Which as you point out quickly turns into Demon Cults. Which turns into trouble. Demon cults might be semi-common, but they shouldn't be more common then Ghost Cults, because ghost are 'local.'

One of the things I definitely like about 3E is that 'Beckon Demon' is now 'Demon of the First Circle.' That is, you're a sorcerer, and you don't have the surrender oaths because you aren't an Exalt. And you could call up a weak elemental just as easy, and you do have a chance of controlling it rather then bargaining. It keeps hell more distant.

 

[vicky_molokh]

Your ability rating represents how in-depth your knowledge is.

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Indeed.

In the High First Age, a lot of stuff was basic knowledge. Not in-depth at all. It was probably common knowledge how the Underworld was created, for example.
In this age, you would need a pretty high ability to have such knowledge.

Now, that doesn't mean that someone with Occult 1 in the High First Age knew more than a current-day person with Occult 5. They were lacking in-depth understanding - they knew a few bullet points which happened to be accurate. But the Occult 5 person is much better at understanding the underlying principles, and putting them to practical use.
To illustrate that, just ask yourself how well you actually understand germ theory. Or electricity, or any such common knowledge. Chances are, not very well even though your basic knowledge of them is much higher than of someone 300 years ago.

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And indeed I agree that I have a rather superficial, non-medically-specialised understanding of germ theory, and have struggled with electricity formulae in school. But nonetheless I don't think silly things like electrons being positively charged or flu being caused by evil spirits.
My other point is that if a city contains professors with Occult 3-5, particularly in universities, then knowledge of the bullet-point sort (i.e. superficial but largely correct) will propagate through cultural osmosis. And there definitely are such cities and other centres of knowledge throughout Creation.

The Creation Ruling Mandate system is terrible and I afford it no respect at all. Basing your argument on that is laughable. No, it's stupid to give the typical mortal of Great Forks Occult 3 and a +3 speciality.

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I'm not saying that typical mortals there have Occult 3+3. I'm saying that the city's relevant centres of knowledge posses such levels of knowledge (and probably some handful of individuals who possess even more, but are few and not as talkative), and that the existence of such deep knowledge will result in some diffusion of a distilled bullet-point synopsis of it. Actually somewhat similar to the example you give (not quoted for brevity), but probably a bit more inclined to at least try to imitate the more efficient presentation from a legendary age.

(Also, laughing at canon when discussing canon is kinda headcannony. But I guess one could as well just scroll to what @Shyft said about it.)

Nope. I strongly disagree. I absolutely reject the idea that the map is the territory, and I would not let a character who has not been in the position to study demonology to "just intuit" things about the Demon Realm to that detail. They'll be able to work out some things - but they'll be the insights of a prodigy on the evidence of their senses, not learned knowledge.

To put it another way, if your Occult 4 Eastern shaman who knows all about the spirits of the Eastern woods and the elementals and fae who stalk this place started asking questions about how the circles of demons work, I'd give things like "Demons are divided by power. The lowest demons are weak things akin to the lesser elementals, but the mightiest are said to be even more powerful than the gods" and "Some say that the demon realm approaches the mortal world during Calibration". Which are astute observations he might have come across or put together from things he's seen in Calibration.

He'd actually need to put work into learning about demons before he got more. Skills cannot pull knowledge from nowhere.

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Skills cannot pull knowledge from nowhere, but apparently exaltations can. Note that an Int 5 Occult 0 mortal is only as good as an Int 2 Occult 1 mortal at most, but an Int 5 Occult 0 Exalt is as good as an Int 2 Occult 3 mortal. The Exalted's ability to intuit and innovate even without a teacher is explicitly mentioned in more than one place of the corebook. (Note that I don't have much of a horse in this race because I don't have a high enough Int on my character for it to matter. Just felt that I need to say this for some reason.)

Honestly, the reason most of us have those basics is because the general mandatory education systems in most First World countries leave us all with a minimum of Lore and [Insert Modern day Occult Equivalent here] 1 or 2, with specialties based on what we pursued, and generally more since higher education and college requires you to leave it with specialties relating to what we study.

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Maybe Science 1 for those who went to a scientific university, but not so much for those who went to an artistic one, plus 1-2 dots of the appropriate Specialisation. After all, a skill of about 2 and an attribute of about 2 is what it takes to work professionally on average, right? Agreed on Lore, but again, there are many regions where people get Lore 1+.

This is because we're getting an incredibly simplified version as seen through the lens of the Exalted system. We don't need to know how to manipulate our Essence to cast Death of Obsidian Butterflies, we just need to spend 15m, 1wp and take a Shape Terrestrial Sorcery action. We don't get a history of various times and places where dogs of the unbroken earth have played significant roles, or an in-depth examination of counter-measures to take against them, just that they exist and some sacrifices that appease them.

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System-vision is certainly a factor, though it shouldn't be overestimated either. For instance, it is trivial to record casting time if spells have a fixed casting time by level. Likewise, a mote is a measurable in-setting unit of energy, so they gotta be known by now. Willpower is more obscure and almost metagamey in some ways, so yeah, it probably shouldn't be know.
This is actually comparable to us saying that an AK-47 fires about 10 shots per second in ideal conditions and about 40/minute in practical semi-auto mode, holds about 30 shots, has adjustable iron sights for 100-800metres of range (but is impractical to shoot at beyond one-third to one-half of its maximum distance), and has a muzzle velocity of about Mach 2, and tends to penetrate armours weaker than, but is stopped by, Class III/Class 3.
I am of course not expecting the consolidated knowledge to be of any good for actually casting the thing.

I would actually say this is a problem, because it is too damn easy in second edition, easy enough that... well, every village should have one person who knows how to call up a demon willing to listen. Which as you point out quickly turns into Demon Cults. Which turns into trouble. Demon cults might be semi-common, but they shouldn't be more common then Ghost Cults, because ghost are 'local.'

One of the things I definitely like about 3E is that 'Beckon Demon' is now 'Demon of the First Circle.' That is, you're a sorcerer, and you don't have the surrender oaths because you aren't an Exalt. And you could call up a weak elemental just as easy, and you do have a chance of controlling it rather then bargaining. It keeps hell more distant.

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Hmm. Somehow I forgot about mere Thaumaturges. Though now I recall that demons get mad at mortal Sorcerers for (hopelessly) trying to Bind them, but not so much at Thaumaturges who instead invite them more as equals for a bargain of some sort. That . . . certainly shifts the perspective on a village's 'hedge wizard'.