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General Exalted Thread

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Anasurimbor said:
So long as the Eclipse ap-
proaches them on legitimate business of some kind,
shades, spirits, the demon princes of Hell, and the Fair
Folk may not attack the Eclipse or her companions
without just cause, and such creatures must observe the
local rules of hospitality.
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"You want refuge but do not offer to swear oaths of surrender of the same potency as the ones you forced on us? I have considered your offer and I reject it. These negotiations are over. You will leave my lands as fast as possible and will not linger or divert from the quickest path. You are not welcome here, and should you stay, we will annihilate your army of invaders you bring with you. Leave."

The Eclipse diplomatic immunity is in fact very narrow. It only applies when they're on legitimate business. Just cause includes "staying once you have been told to leave and the business is concluded". It forces them to not attack immediately, yes, but it doesn't actually stop them from hearing your proposal and going "Fuck no. Get off my land, or I'll consider you an invader" - which as a statement is fully compliant with the Eclipse protections. It is not a power which lets you walk around on someone else's territory unmolested. It ensures you can get to them safely to make your proposition, and won't be attacked for as long as negotiations are ongoing.

Nothing stops them from declaring negotiations over and allowing whatever customary time is permitted for you to get off their lands before attacking. Because once they've rejected your offer and refused to continue on with negotiations, you no longer have legitimate business.

Peanuckle said:
A thought based on the "Gods did it for the games, not humanity" line: Would both groups try to sabotage the other's efforts to gaining entry? The Yozis hate them both oh so much, but might they accept one group on a platter to allow the other? I'm sure they'd love to watch the exalted fighting the gods for the privilege to enter Hell.
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Oh, there's a good chance that the Yozis would offer humanity serfdom and the Exalted citizen status in return for oaths of servitude and non-aggression if they were just to hand the gods over to them. All they need to do is admit that they were wrong and bow to their creators once more. After all, humans are just prayer cattle. They don't really matter. And the Exalted can be bound by oaths. Their torture can be a slower, much more gradual thing, as the Yozis leave all humans like the Men of Malfeas. The beauties of the Demon City will break their hearts and they will slowly be shown and come to know that they were wrong to rebel. The Third Circles know that the Exalted can be swayed and one day they may trick every last one into akumahood, one by gradual one. Then they will serve them instead.

The Yozis are have time. They can play a long game, once they have their oaths. Once the humans have sworn the same oaths that the other Primordial races had, and so cannot harm the Yozis.

Ah, but the gods? The gods are the ones who planned it. The gods are the ones who stole Creation. The gods are the ones who made the Exaltations. And the gods are immortal - every human and Exalt who warred against them originally is dead. The gods include ones among their number who are personally responsible for what was done to them.

There will be no flicker of mercy for the gods. Not even when they beg to die. They showed none and will receive none.
 
Aleph said:
Uh, just to note a point, but... no. Sorry, but no. The war wasn't won by 700 Celestial Exalted; it was won on the backs of a million pureblooded Terrestrial Exalts led by the Celestials. Without their troops; without their perfect supply lines and regiments and officers and support, the Solars, Lunars and Sidereals would lost the war no matter how many times they reincarnated. And no such army exists in the modern day. That purest and greatest time of the Dragonblooded has passed. It will not return to save a scattered, desperate group of refugees and survivors evacuated from the dying embers of their home.
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You see, I've always hated that approach. The Yozi are, ultimately, less. They're broken. They're still terrible almost beyond imagination, but they aren't the equal of the Exalted Host if it ever reunified. The Exalted aren't more broken then the Yozi, because the Yozi are the end state where you can't make it worse without turning them into Neverborn.

We know that at least two different Solar Exalted single-handedly killed a Primordial, and we know that one of them did it multiple times. There might have been a lot of behind the scenes prep work for both of them, that it's ignoring all the preparations that went into doing that...

But yes, the Exalted host definitely should be still able to threaten the Yozi with death. It's what they were made to do, if they can no longer do it, no longer bring things to the point of utter ruin, then they're no longer the Exalted host. They bare the power of an absolute threat.

Of course, doing so would create MORE Neverborn, and the ones that were created before managed to screw everything up. It's a bad idea. It's a terrible idea. But if brought to the limits of brinkmanship, with their last hopes and duties on the line, they certainly should have that power of spite.
 
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EarthScorpion said:
Men of Malfeas.
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On this note, do you have a link to that writeup? I can only find broken links and dead pages.

TheLastOne said:
but they aren't the equal of the Exalted Host if it ever reunified.
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This will never happen. The Sidereals are split and half of them hate the Lunars and Solars. The Lunars are of mixed feelings about the Solars, the Solars are at half-strength and have no idea about anything and the Dragonblooded are drastically reduced and of thin blood. Even if all the exalted put aside their issues and united, they wouldn't approach the original Host.
 
Peanuckle said:
On this note, do you have a link to that writeup? I can only find broken links and dead pages.


This will never happen. The Sidereals are split and half of them hate the Lunars and Solars. The Lunars are of mixed feelings about the Solars, the Solars are at half-strength and have no idea about anything and the Dragonblooded are drastically reduced and of thin blood. Even if all the exalted put aside their issues and united, they wouldn't approach the original Host.
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We're talking about a apocalypse scenario where creation is already destroyed, and they don't need to match the original host. If they needed to match the original host, then there would be no Yozi, the Primordials would have simply won. The Yozi are less, they are reduced, turned against each other, restricted in their actions, and there aren't as many of them. They are on every level inferior to the force the original Exalted host defeated. You don't have to have something as strong as that to win a fight, and you don't have to win a fight in the first place because if it becomes that kind of fight everyone loses.
 
Would the Yozis even be able to stop the Exalted/Humanity if they all decided to flee to Malfeas? Malfeas is BIG. Individual Exalts could easily hide or find employment under a 2CD/3CD, maybe even with 'shelter those few hundred refugees I brought with me' as an additional condition.

Of course some Unquestionables would probably try to force all of them under oaths but even their might and reach is not infinite. If Ligier asks all exalts to swear unbreakable oaths of loyalty and service to the Yozis, then some other Unquestionable that offers better conditions might get himself a nice cadre of exalts that owe him a lot if he shelters them.
 
It really strikes me as far more likely that the survivors of Creations Fall into Oblivion would seek to settle in the Wyld, or in Elsewhere, rather than Malfeas of all places. Both are much more manageable, and can be made hospitable with Exalted and Divine magic.

That being said - if you do want to have them in Malfeas, make the following deal:
Oblivion seeks to swallow everything. Only with the assistance of humanity, the Exalted Host and the Gods can Oblivion be defeated. The Yozi need their assistance to ensure their own survival.

That's something the Yozi might actually agree too. They are after all horrified by the Neverborn, and by the concept of (their own) death. And they are aware of what the Exalted Host can do. It'd be a very grudging admission, but this is a scenario I can see taking place.
 
TheLastOne said:
We're talking about a apocalypse scenario where creation is already destroyed, and they don't need to match the original host. If they needed to match the original host, then there would be no Yozi, the Primordials would have simply won. The Yozi are less, they are reduced, turned against each other, restricted in their actions, and there aren't as many of them. They are on every level inferior to the force the original Exalted host defeated. You don't have to have something as strong as that to win a fight, and you don't have to win a fight in the first place because if it becomes that kind of fight everyone loses.
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The difference between the Yozis and the Primordials is less than the difference between the First Exalted and what they have now. And now that they've been hurt and humbled, they'll be more ready to throw the first punch and not stop punching. They'll know that if they surrender again, the Exalted will outright lobotomize them and live on their empty bodies. If anything, I think the Yozis would be more effective fighters because they've experienced a real fight, loss, real pain, etc.


Elero said:
Would the Yozis even be able to stop the Exalted/Humanity if they all decided to flee to Malfeas?
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It's up to the ST whether the Yozis are perfectly aware of every inch of themselves or if they defer that to their souls. But the mass-entrance of Exalted is not going to go unnoticed.

Serafina said:
It really strikes me as far more likely that the survivors of Creations Fall into Oblivion would seek to settle in the Wyld, or in Elsewhere, rather than Malfeas of all places.
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Without Creation, or any stabilizing tech like Genesis Engines or Elemental Poles, life in the Wyld is restricted to a small diameter around whoever knows Chaos-Repelling Pattern. I don't think life in Elsewhere is possible if you're not Autocthon.

Serafina said:
Oblivion seeks to swallow everything. Only with the assistance of humanity, the Exalted Host and the Gods can Oblivion be defeated. The Yozi need their assistance to ensure their own survival.
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The original premise was that Oblivion sealed up after Creation and the Neverborn fell in. If it persisted and tried to consume Malfeas and the Wyld as well? That's a whole different situation and the Yozis would probably realize the danger.
 
Peanuckle said:
It's up to the ST whether the Yozis are perfectly aware of every inch of themselves or if they defer that to their souls. But the mass-entrance of Exalted is not going to go unnoticed.
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700 Celestials, probably over the weeks/months of Creation being consumed by Oblivion? (because if it was instant, most people wouldn't make it to a Malfeas Gate in time to evacuate). And even if they are aware, that doesn't mean they can actually keep track of them once they're in.
 
horngeek said:
UnExalted humans die after being in Malfeas for... I think three days? Or a week, one of the two.
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I've never liked that rule. It basically cordons off this massive, beautiful, interesting, cool place and says "actually no, you can't play here because lulz poison". Humans shouldn't have to worry about some random unjustified miasma for surviving in Malfeas; there are about ten thousand far more interesting obstacles to survival in there. Like the fact that there's no day/night cycle or silence and so you're going to have to work very hard just to sleep. Like the fact that there aren't really any crops or (safe) rivers, so you're going to have to find sources of food and water. Like the myriad everyday hazards from street brawls amidst serfs on up to the Silent Wind herself.
 
Elero said:
700 Celestials, probably over the weeks/months of Creation being consumed by Oblivion? (because if it was instant, most people wouldn't make it to a Malfeas Gate in time to evacuate). And even if they are aware, that doesn't mean they can actually keep track of them once they're in.
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With no more Creation, Cecelyne doesn't need to let them ever get through to Malfeas. "Can the Yozis find them" is moot when they'll need to lobby to be allowed in in the first place.
 
Aleph said:
I've never liked that rule. It basically cordons off this massive, beautiful, interesting, cool place and says "actually no, you can't play here because lulz poison". Humans shouldn't have to worry about some random unjustified miasma for surviving in Malfeas; there are about ten thousand far more interesting obstacles to survival in there. Like the fact that there's no day/night cycle or silence and so you're going to have to work very hard just to sleep. Like the fact that there aren't really any crops or (safe) rivers, so you're going to have to find sources of food and water. Like the myriad everyday hazards from street brawls amidst serfs on up to the Silent Wind herself.
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Given that most characters who go to Malfeas are going to be Exalted and thus immune, though...
 
horngeek said:
Given that most characters who go to Malfeas are going to be Exalted and thus immune, though...
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I'm not sure why small populations of humans (and therefore, potential Exalts to mess with things) eking a living on the margins of the Demon City shouldn't be part of the setting though. A band of nomads who got lost in the desert, a remnant of a pet project of the First Age, whatever, it's an interesting concept for a character/campaign: make a safe and comfortable space in Malfeas for your people. Hell (pardon the pun), they might never even learn of Creation for a long while - the prison of the Yozi is all they've ever known. Their ancestral myths of the gods of the sun and moon and stars have been... adapted, over the generations. The Sun lives in the centre of the world now, surrounded by the most beautiful layer of the City, and forges wonders for those who earn his respect.
 
It would actually make a lot of thematic sense for Cecylene to take her most devout followers with her into exile. Her theme of domineering laws and religious belief seems like it would attract fanatical worshippers and lead to the development of cultures that are willing to reject the opportunities offered by the victorious Exalted in favor of continuing to follow her.

I am reminded of Moses and the Twelve Tribes wandering in the desert until they are final judged worthy enough to conquer Israel. Beyond the nomadic desert lifestyle there are some striking similarities in the form of a religion based around laws passed down by a distant God and survival only through the regular granting of divine food.
 
horngeek said:
Given that most characters who go to Malfeas are going to be Exalted and thus immune, though...
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And can't have human retainers, or find men gone brutish and demonic in the demon realm, and... it basically cuts out a load of cool gameplay and interesting character concepts for no apparent gain beyond "yarr, malfeas nasty place". Which is fucking stupid when there are already hundreds of other far more deeply rooted reasons it's a horrible place that don't make it impossible to ever deal with humans in Hell. Especially when it's not even particularly justified. Nothing about Malfeas is connected to or justifies the existence of a poisonous-to-mortals-only miasma of death. The only place you could draw it from would be Yozi Venom and hate-tainted vitriol, which is poisonous to everyone, or Green Sun Wasting/Kimbery poisons/etc, which is also poisonous to everyone.
 
Personally, I suspect those humans who reside in Malfeas either are Exalted, or become not fully human anymore to survive there.

I like it, because it gets across that this is an alien world. I mean, come on, a whole lot of other things to do with Malfeas are obvious science or science fiction references, so why not this?
 
horngeek said:
Personally, I suspect those humans who reside in Malfeas either are Exalted, or become not fully human anymore to survive there.

I like it, because it gets across that this is an alien world. I mean, come on, a whole lot of other things to do with Malfeas are obvious science or science fiction references, so why not this?
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Because the other sci fi references are references that make it alien without blanket-denying it as a stage for gameplay. Because you can justify and twist and contort into how every human who goes there becomes non-human, or you can just let it be alien in the countless ways it already is and use those to emphasise its alien nature without saying "nope, mortal human games are impossible here; it's a cool setting with loads of interesting stuff that they can never play in ever, period, they die automatically via magical poison that for some reason doesn't effect anyone else". It's dumb, and seems to stem more from "it's Hell and thus only for DEVILS AND DEMONS" than the alien themes of Malfeas. If it really was an alien atmosphere then, once again, Exalted without environmental defences would choke too (and demons would choke in Creation). It's not an expression of alien-world themes, it's "you're meant to be playing games in Creation, not here; go away."

Besides, the Yozis made Creation. If they had some sort of alien atmosphere unique to them; they'd have made Creation with it.
 
horngeek said:
Personally, I suspect those humans who reside in Malfeas either are Exalted, or become not fully human anymore to survive there.

I like it, because it gets across that this is an alien world. I mean, come on, a whole lot of other things to do with Malfeas are obvious science or science fiction references, so why not this?
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It wasn't in Games of Divinity. Rebecca Borgstrom didn't feel it necessary to include it. She never mentioned it - and it is very much the sort of thing that would have been mentioned, probably in some phrasing like "The boundless spite of the Yozis towards humanity means the very air of Malfeas kills".

Which means it's not a fundamental conceptualisation of Malfeas. It was just crammed in for 2e, and given it's justified for jack shit, it can be safely ignored.
 
EarthScorpion said:
It wasn't in Games of Divinity. Rebecca Borgstrom didn't feel it necessary to include it. She never mentioned it - and it is very much the sort of thing that would have been mentioned, probably in some phrasing like "The boundless spite of the Yozis towards humanity means the very air of Malfeas kills".

Which means it's not a fundamental conceptualisation of Malfeas. It was just crammed in for 2e, and given it's justified for jack shit, it can be safely ignored.
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Man, I get really sick of "It's just a 2e thing, you can ignore it" sometimes. Sure, ignore it if you like, but the "It wasn't in 1e so it's irrelevant" feels like such an unnecessary part of this post, and comes off as more than a little insulting to people who came into the game with 2e and whose understandings of things are centred in 2e.

That said, absolutely ignore it for all the other excellent reasons provided the past couple of pages.
 
Could always have the miasma as a case by case thing. I've always thought that there should be some kind of 'metaphysical' benefit from controlling an area of malfeas, some kind of small subtle 'ownership' thing,. Maybe the ruler of each section might turn it on/off as needed (we do know that the Guild at least regularly visits hell).
 
Come to think of it, many of the laws of the Endless Desert are about what demons may and may not do. Humans are not bound by such laws. Having a pet human could be a status symbol, having a whole tribe of humans can mean... interesting things.
 
Random Entity said:
Man, I get really sick of "It's just a 2e thing, you can ignore it" sometimes. Sure, ignore it if you like, but the "It wasn't in 1e so it's irrelevant" feels like such an unnecessary part of this post, and comes off as more than a little insulting to people who came into the game with 2e and whose understandings of things are centred in 2e.
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It wasn't in the original concept for Malfeas. The thing which makes it so very distinctive and non-standard for a fictional hell. That's what matters, not the 1e/2e divide.

What matters is that the miasma got stuck in by someone else who didn't seem to care about the thematics. In fact, I recall someone saying that it was first introduced by Scroll of Heroes, in which case ha ha ha ha ha.
 
EarthScorpion said:
It wasn't in the original concept for Malfeas. The thing which makes it so very distinctive and non-standard for a fictional hell. That's what matters, not the 1e/2e divide.

What matters is that the miasma got stuck in by someone else who didn't seem to care about the thematics. In fact, I recall someone saying that it was first introduced by Scroll of Heroes, in which case ha ha ha ha ha.
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I really fail to see how either of these things matter, though. What's important is that it's a bad idea, not whether it's part of the original conception.
 
Random Entity said:
I really fail to see how either of these things matter, though. What's important is that it's a bad idea, not whether it's part of the original conception.
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When the original conception is such a big deal, it sure as hell does matter. Malfeas is distinctive, and if you lose that vision, even something which in another setting might be a good idea doesn't work. You can't take such ideas in isolation.

And the writer of the demonblooded section of Scroll of Heroes didn't give a shit and bluntly didn't actually apparently know much about Exalted. Because in the same section, they also wrote:

Demon-Blooded have some difficulty regenerating
Essence in Creation. They regenerate temporary Essence
at only half the normal rate through rest and meditation.
This rate is normal in Malfeas or while traveling the
wastes of Cecelyne. They also regain Essence normally
in Creation when resting near places of great sin or
suffering, such as slave markets and torture chambers.
Demon-Blooded seeking such places for refuge and rest
cannot act in a way that alleviates the sense of pain and
suffering. If they do, the increased Essence regeneration
is lost. To counteract this vulnerability, many demonic
sires of Demon-Blooded tithe a small amount of Essence
from their mortal cults to their children. Those Demon-
Blooded not in the service of their parents must make
do on their own.
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Does that sound like someone who actually knows about what Exalted demons are like, rather than just writing them as generic "grr, torture, sin, temptation" demons?
 
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