I'm well aware. I was referring to the fact that Saber does meet up with Assassin again...and wreck him without using any magic.
Saber is magic. She fights by amping her physical capacities with magic at all times; that's the entire purpose of Prana Burst. She doesn't Excaliblast him, true.

Isn't Assassin supposed to be ~ (anime) baseline human, physically?

I can't see why blocking/dodging/murdering for the presumption would be much harder against him than against someone with 3 arms and the appropriate level of skill.
Not... exactly true.

He is noted as the greatest in terms of pure swordsmanship among the Servants of the Fifth Holy Grail War, and not even Gilgamesh would want to face him in a battle of swordsmanship. Lancer comments that he wouldn't like fighting him one on one and would prefer to kill him off from a distance.
His swordplay is fast enough that even Saber has trouble following it.
It is not possible to get used to his fighting style no matter how many times he utilizes the same technique on a single foe due to his Knowledge of Respect and Harmony skill. It is the ability to "render one's attacks unreadable to the enemy", so even Saber's high Instinct cannot adapt to his fighting style after crossing blades many times.
The perception of his eyes is the best among Servants, allowing him to see through the weapon and style of his opponent after crossing blades only a few times. He initially has trouble withInvisible Air because its distance cannot be gauged, making it too dangerous to close in and not allow him to follow through with his strikes. He eventually becomes able to judge its exact measurements without using magecraft or even exchanging actual blows with the sword. ... It also allows him to see that Saber is unable to use her Noble Phantasm attack due to a lack of energy.
His secret technique, Tsubame Gaeshi, is three simultaneous sword slashes in mutually exclusive directions that can only be performed on flat ground. It is not a Noble Phantasm, but it has reached a similar level out of pure godlike skill. It should be unavoidable as long as there are no errors in its execution, making it a deadly technique. It makes him, who should be a "mere human", equal to Heroic Spirits armed with Noble Phantasms.
 
If an attack moves linearly towards you, and you move linearly away from it but faster, how can it hit you?
So you're saying that I can infinitely kite people in Melee in 2E with Infernals.

Brb, breaking Exalted again.

Oh, I thought you were saying he'd continue slashing (with regular slashes, as he wouldn't have time to get into his Tsubame Geashi stance again, and if he did you'd block it anyway) after you'd blocked Tsubame Gaeshi. I had presumed you'd read my way of blocking simultaneous attacks:
1. Three attacks come towards you simultaneously.
2. While the attacks are a [fraction] of the way towards you, you destroy the first one.
3. While the attacks are a [fraction] of the way towards you, you destroy the second one.
4. Repeat 2 and 3 until one attack is left.
5. While the final attack is [fraction] of the way to you, you destroy it.
6. You have blocked simultaneous attacks.

What makes this plan literally impossible?
Man, I don't know what idea you have of Solars or Celestials but I don't think that they move fast enough that ticks are actually nanoseconds.
 
Saber is magic. She fights by amping her physical capacities with magic at all times; that's the entire purpose of Prana Burst.
Is prana burst mentioned as being used during either of the fights?

It's been my understanding that Prana Burst is an active technique, after all.
 
Your unfamiliarity with Exalted is showing in that you don't realize that having a way to deal with exactly this kind of shit is vital to surviving Exalted vs. Exalted combat.
In fact, Infernals and Sidereals have charms that function almost identically, except they throw more like 5 attack out at one time, and they've got Celestial Exalt charms boosting them.

Dude's got a chance against Terrestrials and mortals, but against (combat-ready) Celestials, he's gonna have a bad time.
Huh, so exalts have ways to fight, observe the charms in use, and plan at the same time? Good to know, thanks.
 
Nonseqiter, he does have servant level stats, they are just bottom of the barrel servant stats. Which are still, at minimum, tenx best human. Salty, when when you drive off someone vastly stronger, faster, tougher, luckier, and almost as skilled as you are and force them to come back later with a plan tailored to kill you, I'd call that impressive. Also, prana burst totally counts as magic. Not Magic, but magecraft.
I call that plot armor.
 
Is prana burst mentioned as being used during either of the fights?

It's been my understanding that Prana Burst is an active technique, after all.
She uses Prana Burst at all times while fighting.

She uses the prana for her sword techniques, guarding, and movement. Her body is naturally physically frail, and she is even weaker than Shirou and Rin should she not utilize the ability. It is the secret that has allowed her to brandish her large sword with the combat style of a power fighter, and she is able to reinforce the ability of her body to such a great extent using prana that she can fight head on with monsters such as Berserker even with the thin body of a small girl. Each of her powerful blows contains enough prana that they are visible, and if Lancer's strikes are like an accurate sniper rifle, her own can be compared to a powerful shotgun.
 
Man, I don't know what idea you have of Solars or Celestials but I don't think that they move fast enough that ticks are actually nanoseconds.

Why on Earth would you need Culture Mind level reactions to deal with three sword swings moving, at most, a single OoM more than a humans peak according to @Frakir's brother ?

Also, if that's true it puts all the hypersonic servant calcs in a very silly place. Then again, that's nothing new. :p
 
Oh, I forgot about Knowledge of Respect and Harmony. Also, azoicennaed? While it is plot armor, it is also perfectly believable. Consider what saber knows: servant assassin, supposedly the weakest servant in direct combat, is holding her off through skill and speed and she can't get a hold of his style. His presence is difficult to track and he has damaged her armor, leaving an opening to take advantage of. That is time to retreat, wouldn't you agree?
 
TBH, I don't see why False Assassin has to be written as only having a shit-tier magical flurry. He's a guy that's supposed to be so good that he has perfected a technique that will kill anyone, even someone incredibly superhuman like Saber if he pulls it off successfully. He's still not doing shit to any competently built Celestial but they're going to die if they don't at least put some effort into dealing with his technique.
Why on Earth would you need Culture Mind level reactions to deal with three sword swings moving, at most, a single OoM more than a humans peak according to @Frakir's brother ?

Also, if that's true it puts all the hypersonic servant calcs in a very silly place. Then again, that's nothing new. :p
Exaggeration. Exalts aren't an OoM above him in reflexes or strength though. Technically, as an anime human, he might be an OoM above them instead.
 
Why on Earth would you need Culture Mind level reactions to deal with three sword swings moving, at most, a single OoM more than a humans peak according to @Frakir's brother ?

Also, if that's true it puts all the hypersonic servant calcs in a very silly place. Then again, that's nothing new. :p
Assassin has rank A agility. That is 50 times peak human. Just so ya know.
 
Also yeah, I'm not saying that he could take Celestial Exalts as a human. That would just be silly. A decent spar yes, possibly a moment that they couldn't afford to lose in battle. I sincerely want to know all of this.
 
Huh, so exalts have ways to fight, observe the charms in use, and plan at the same time? Good to know, thanks.

One of the things about how Exalted works is combat transparency: when at attack comes at an Exalt, he or she is subconsciously aware of what the attack does, at least enough to know the potential consequences, which defenses are applicable, and which charms they can use to protect themselves.

When Assassin and an Exalt are fighting, it goes something like this

Assassin: Wow, you are quite skilled. Take this, my greatest skill. Hiken:
Exalt: Huh, some kind of martial arts charm is coming and - OH SHIT those are some large onslaught penalties and dice pools on those attacks!
CHARMS ENSUE - onslaught negators, surprise awareness charms, counterattacks, flurry-breakers, whatever - all the way up to "block the unblockable, dodge the undodgeable, tank the untankable)
Assassin: wow that's some fuckin bullshit right there

Your best option against an Exalt is to be consistently better than them in combat (so you can grind them down) or to find an area that they lack defenses in and target them there.
 
One of the things about how Exalted works is combat transparency: when at attack comes at an Exalt, he or she is subconsciously aware of what the attack does, at least enough to know the potential consequences, which defenses are applicable, and which charms they can use to protect themselves.

When Assassin and an Exalt are fighting, it goes something like this

Assassin: Wow, you are quite skilled. Take this, my greatest skill. Hiken:
Exalt: Huh, some kind of martial arts charm is coming and - OH SHIT those are some large onslaught penalties and dice pools on those attacks!
CHARMS ENSUE - onslaught negators, surprise awareness charms, counterattacks, flurry-breakers, whatever - all the way up to "block the unblockable, dodge the undodgeable, tank the untankable)
Assassin: wow that's some fuckin bullshit right there

Your best option against an Exalt is to be consistently better than them in combat (so you can grind them down) or to find an area that they lack defenses in and target them there.
Thanks! Would that pierce Knowledge of Respect and Harmony? It is a skill that exists to make it so knowledge of assassin's style and techniques are totally opaque.
 
He's a guy that's supposed to be so good that he has perfected a technique that will kill anyone, even someone incredibly superhuman like Saber if he pulls it off successfully.

Which amounts to momentarily having 3 (well-coordinated, skilled) sword arms. I mean, sure, it's supposed to be a doom combo, but the only thing that really makes it dangerous is how fast/skilled/strong Assassin is, because Tsubaeme Gaeshi (sic) only lets him make the simultaneous strike. Some dodge penalties because of the coordination, maybe a few others, but if he's using mostly human 'sword shit' pools it doesn't matter that much that he grew 3 arms, while if he's breaking the sound barrier there might be reason to worry.
 
Thanks! Would that pierce Knowledge of Respect and Harmony? It is a skill that exists to make it so knowledge of assassin's style and techniques are totally opaque.
I would stat Knowledge of Respect and Harmony so that its benefit was still measurable, but did not take that form. I'd need to think about it, but perhaps some sort of penalty applied to opponents who don't have Awareness Charms sufficient to pierce it.

Which amounts to momentarily having 3 (well-coordinated, skilled) sword arms. I mean, sure, it's supposed to be a doom combo, but the only thing that really makes it dangerous is how fast/skilled/strong Assassin is, because Tsubaeme Gaeshi (sic) only lets him make the simultaneous strike. Some dodge penalties because of the coordination, maybe a few others, but if he's using mostly human 'sword shit' pools it doesn't matter that much that he grew 3 arms, while if he's breaking the sound barrier there might be reason to worry.
Seeing as Tsubame Gaeshi is clearly intended to have this capability - the perfect, unavoidable strike - perhaps you should start from there and figure out what must be the case beyond just triple-strike.
 
Well, at rank A agility, he has 50 times max human speed. Google says that a normal swing of a sword is about 40mph, 200mph is that times fifty.
 
Which amounts to momentarily having 3 (well-coordinated, skilled) sword arms. I mean, sure, it's supposed to be a doom combo, but the only thing that really makes it dangerous is how fast/skilled/strong Assassin is, because Tsubaeme Gaeshi (sic) only lets him make the simultaneous strike. Some dodge penalties because of the coordination, maybe a few others, but if he's using mostly human 'sword shit' pools it doesn't matter that much that he grew 3 arms, while if he's breaking the sound barrier there might be reason to worry.

Well, if you believe in hypersonic servants...

Really though, it's not just a three-armed guy strike because that guy still has his swords coming from him and limited by how his hands must coordinate. Tsubame Gaeshi doesn't have those limitations, so it's more like three strikes from three different guys, perfectly coordinated at the same time and perfectly positioned in the best spot to flank you, and those guys are superhuman as well.

Unblockable/Undodgeable might be a bit too far, but Tsubame Gaeshi is the kind of thing you blow PDs for. So buff his base stats or make it more of a threat or something. A magical flurry of three blows is just way too lackluster.
 
Oh, I forgot about Knowledge of Respect and Harmony. Also, azoicennaed? While it is plot armor, it is also perfectly believable. Consider what saber knows: servant assassin, supposedly the weakest servant in direct combat, is holding her off through skill and speed and she can't get a hold of his style. His presence is difficult to track and he has damaged her armor, leaving an opening to take advantage of. That is time to retreat, wouldn't you agree?
That's probably because she initially underestimated the threat, allowing him to gain an advantage that she couldn't shake - which is normal for Exalted combat.

Also yeah, I'm not saying that he could take Celestial Exalts as a human. That would just be silly. A decent spar yes, possibly a moment that they couldn't afford to lose in battle. I sincerely want to know all of this.
Normal for Exalted combat. It's a downward spiral after the first hit - it makes the next hit more likely, which makes the next hit more likely, and so on. When you have 7 health levels (which means you can take 7 damage) before buying Ox-Body Technique, and a fucking gauntlet does Strength +5 dice of damage (before soak, admittedly), that means you're probably going to last only a few hits - if you're lucky (or you have a fuck-ton of soak).

Health is -0/-1x2/-2x2/-4/Incapacitated (before OBT, because that's variable) - that means one HL of damage inflicts a -0 wound penalty, two inflicts a -1 wound penalty, 4 inflicts a -2 wound penalty, and 6 inflicts a -4 wound penalty. These penalties apply to dice pools and to your DVs after the pool has been divided by half. So, if Saber has a Parry DV of 8 (Dex 5, Melee 5, Swords +3, Daiklave Defense +2, total pool of 15), and the first hit took off 4 HLs, she's down to a DV of 6 - which, with a pool of 5+5+3+2=15, False Assassin has a 77.277% chance of hitting. If he only dealt 2 levels of damage, that still puts his chance of hitting at 63.473%. That's before taking into account how nasty flurries are in Exalted (especially flurries that ignore multiple action penalties).

Thanks! Would that pierce Knowledge of Respect and Harmony? It is a skill that exists to make it so knowledge of assassin's style and techniques are totally opaque.
It's fine as fluff, but mechanically doesn't work with the system (because of combat transparency; the target knows how many dice are being used, how many attacks are being made, and how much damage they deal). I'd represent that as a way to halve DVs or make attacks unexpected (either directly, or a bonus to re-establish surprise), because you do something that catches your opponent by surprise because your style is so opaque.
 
Thanks! Would that pierce Knowledge of Respect and Harmony? It is a skill that exists to make it so knowledge of assassin's style and techniques are totally opaque.

Hmm... Exalted doesn't normally fuck around with combat transparency, but you could probably design an analogue to that in the system. It would probably be either a Unnatural Mental Influence Illusion-tagged effect or a Shaping (reality-warping) effect, depending on how it works. Either way, the solar would be given an opportunity to respond to it.

"Player, an effect is preventing you from knowing what what charms he's using. Do you wish to use [appropriate solar charm] to overcome it?"
 
From what I understand, solar exalted are total b.s. I would have it as charms are open to celestial exalts, while anyone else gets the full effect.
 
So, I've got 2/3 of Iron Juggernaut Style named and written (have 6 charms that have ideas to be hammered out into full charm text, and 1 that is a boring dice adder that I want to change), pretty much all of which have at least a little fluff on them.

Anyway, I want to get some views on other oddities in the style I've added (beyond it being a non-hero style with 22 charms). First, it's a CMA that's available (at higher cost) to DBs without any initiation charms; as I've got it written, it costs 15xp for a DB with MA favored unless they have an initiation charm, and 17xp if they do (costs as unfavored if it is favored, and unfavored+2 for actually unfavored, and DBs buy CMAs at 12xp favored and 15xp unfavored). Additionally, mortals can learn the charms up to the Form charm, but they have a surcharge of 1 hl - so getting the three scene-longs up will put you on your -1s.
Is this acceptable? Should I leave it as unavailable to mortals?

The pre-form charms are an action-long soak booster, an upgrade to that that makes it scene-long for a bit more, a damage booster, and a scene-long damage booster (that gives you +1L and Overwhelming 2), and the form charm boosts soak and hardness, Parry DV (by increasing weapons' Defense), and causes your weapons to be treated as made of iron whenever advantageous.

I think my favorite charm so far is the one that turns your fists into smashfists and your feet into god-kicking boots, which you can add magical materials to.
The actual capstone (in addition to the capstone for the core style and each of the substyles), which gives some good-but-not-super-important-at-Essence-5 effects and also causes you to leave a corpse-statue of pure iron, which causes any weapons made using it to always be treated as made of iron when advantageous, even when used artifacts of a magical material - because fuck Fair Folk with a daiklave*.

*I figure there have been maybe a dozen people who have learned that charm since the style was created during the Shogunate, and half of them were Sidereals** and thus have a good chance of still being alive, so there have been like 3-4 corpse-statues that could be used for this effect, and most of them were probably treated like regular corpses, meaning maybe 1 or 2 artifacts to date have this effect. For a Terrestrial, it's an investment of 224xp*** just on the charms (it also requires MA 5, Athletics 5, Resistance 5, and Essence 5), and for a Sidereal that's still 180xp***.
** I wonder what the gods would think of Sidereals melting down Sidereal corpses to make weapons.
*** One of the charms requires an additional 4xp to get the full effect; it's the one that gives you smashfist-fists and god-kicking-boot-feet.
 
So, random notes -

Saber escaped the second Tsubame Gaeshi because Assassin was forced to allow her to bend his sword in order to get into position; the result was an imperfect cage that left a gap. The original technique is supposed to be undodgeable.

Honestly, given that things as boring as "explosion of glass" are statted as undodgeable attacks, I don't really see a problem with making it a Principle of Motion variant that makes all strikes undodgeable; chalk it up to his supreme skill if you need a fluff reason. It may or may not be blockable, depending on the precise mechanics of the attacks - I haven't looked at an Exalted rulebook in awhile.

Start from "it's an explosion, except not an environmental hazard" and go from there, I'd say. And give it a flaw that says it can only be used on flat ground.

(Also, yeah, Saber's strength comes almost entirely from Prana Burst, it's part of why she's such a mana hog. She's basically an average sixteen-year-old girl without it; with it she stands up to Hercules.)
 
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So, random notes -

Saber escaped the second Tsubame Gaeshi because Assassin was forced to allow her to bend his sword in order to get into position; the result was an imperfect cage that left a gap. The original technique is supposed to be undodgeable.

That sounds like a stunt, really.

There is undodgeable and Undodgeable in 2e. A -2 DV penalty from a three hit flurry, especially with no multiple action penalties, is pretty damn huge.

The standard combat technique in Exalted is to just spam as many attacks as you can per action, so being able to make a three hit Extra Action is nothing to sneeze at.

If you want to buff it up, maybe add a Coordinated Attack penalty of -3. That's a total of -5 to DV, which means anyone with a DV of 5 or less (ie, basically everyone but Exalts) will be utterly destroyed.
 
That sounds like a stunt, really.

There is undodgeable and Undodgeable in 2e. A -2 DV penalty from a three hit flurry, especially with no multiple action penalties, is pretty damn huge.

The standard combat technique in Exalted is to just spam as many attacks as you can per action, so being able to make a three hit Extra Action is nothing to sneeze at.

If you want to buff it up, maybe add a Coordinated Attack penalty of -3. That's a total of -5 to DV, which means anyone with a DV of 5 or less (ie, basically everyone but Exalts) will be utterly destroyed.
I'm aware...

... but, frankly, that's boring. I don't really have a better argument, I just think that's a boring thing to give to the single most skilled swordsman in a home canon that includes borderline-Exalts.

"I'm so skilled that I've broken reality" is his thematic in the Nasuverse; "I'm so skilled I'm a mortal with a perfect attack" is a roughly comparable statement in Exalted.
 
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