I have considered this discussion on the Shogunate at length, writing up and deleting several posts in the process as my ADHD meds led me down a number of tangents to enlightenment, and ultimately I have concluded that, while it doesn't address the issues of fundamental theming or what the game is trying to say with the Shogunate, I think a lot of the issues and contradictions, particularly regarding centralization of power vs how divisive and conflict ridden both polity and time period were supposed to be, actually all hang together pretty decently if you say that the Shogunate was just Big Angry Calin.
General Exalted Thread
- Location
- my house
I meant to reply to that post.
Blaque
Resident Catblob
- Location
- SLC UT
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I've kind of settled on the Shogunate probably being long enough to also have had phases or even things where it has aspects of the Roman Empire. Where the position of Shogun was probably something that came from the Second Deliberative in the coup, allowed for a centralization of power not seen during most of it with the Celestials and after the initial chaos, may have had a few decades of stability under a strong asshole that had poor seccession plans like these things do.
And that despite the talk on its instability, I tend to think that towards the end of it it had begun to stabilize, the excesses of the worst daimyos was probably curtailed by progressively strengthening authority, and that there might have just been a few decades of actual stability and calm, where things were going to indeed maybe flourish....when the plague and fairies showed up and wrecked htat. So what we see as the successor states are founded by people who grew-up in that tail end of relative stability and strength of the Terrestrial Shogunate.
And that despite the talk on its instability, I tend to think that towards the end of it it had begun to stabilize, the excesses of the worst daimyos was probably curtailed by progressively strengthening authority, and that there might have just been a few decades of actual stability and calm, where things were going to indeed maybe flourish....when the plague and fairies showed up and wrecked htat. So what we see as the successor states are founded by people who grew-up in that tail end of relative stability and strength of the Terrestrial Shogunate.
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- They/Them
Definitely not. "The Realm" pg 32 has a sidebar, "Scholarship in the Realm", that talks about surviving First Age texts being available to savants, which would make an official conflation of First Age and Shogunate difficult, not to mention that pages 89 and 90 talk about searching through First Age ruins for additional texts that can be added to Immaculate canon, so this is an ongoing thing and not just pre-curated existing things.
Juche (starting on the Realm pg 125) is a location that has its urban structure go back to the First Age, but during the Shogunate it was a key piece of what would become the Immaculate Order. It's not unique in having some sort of lineage of that kind, but I think it's a good one for showing how the modern Realm sees the difference.
The Realm's Deliberative harkens back to the First Age and not the Shogunate (The Realm pg 58), which is a point of contention between the Realm and Lookshy: Lookshy is (officially) waiting for the next Shogun for them to be loyal to, though at this point no claim could be legitimate enough for them to accept that specific Shogun. Lookshy claims its legitimacy through being a part of the Shogunate that is still loyal, while the Empress' historical legitimacy is based on her divine right to oversee the First Age reborn (hence why the Realm calls it "The Realm Before"). The countries' actual tension is based on ongoing realpolitik, not quibbles about ancient history, but in terms of their claims to historical mantles, there's a distinction here that has to reach the understanding of common people.
...That all said, I actually have this as something of a headcanon that less educated Dynasts might believe: what do you mean there were two different wars against mad superhuman threats in ancient history. I think I've posted that headcanon in this thread before, so it's possible that I, personally, am directly involved in you thinking that canon might have said this.
I might be misunderstanding the Immaculate Order religious doctrine.
Are you saying the 3e canon has them believing in a historical timeline of Primordials creating the world, Solars overthrowing them, and finally the Dragonblooded overthrowing the Solars when they went mad?
My understanding is that the Immaculate Philosophy conflates the Solars and Primordials. Their history starts with the Solars ruling as the pawns of the Yozis and then being overthrown by the Immaculate Dragons who independently empowered the Dragon Blooded.
I am going to take some time to look through the books and see if we have a more detailed explanation of the Immaculate Philosophy's history of Creation
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- Nova Scotia
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- She/Her
I believe this is fanon. It's something that I have seen people repeat before, but I'm not familiar with this portrayal in any of the books. It's definitely not the case in the current material.
I think that the Realm's understands of the Realm Before, what it was like, and who ruled it is not like, necessarily uniformly rigorous -- most of the people in Numinous Rolling Wave Dominion assume that the tombs in the Valley of the Ancients were for Dragon-Blooded, for example. I just don't think that the Realm or the Immaculate Philosophy like, cares very much about the Divine Revolution at all, though.
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- They/Them
That's how it's portrayed in What Fire Hath Wrought page 16:
Then, after talking about the First Age, it goes on to say:
This one's more omniscient than in-character, but so far as I know, there's nothing in the book to indicate this is secret knowledge or unfamiliar to DBs.
Overall, then, that's multiple bits that suggest that, yeah, Realm (and thus Immaculate) savants have a solid and basically correct understanding of their world's history. They know about as much as anyone knows about the First Age, and the time before the First Age, and how the Divine Revolution and the Usurpation fit. There's some text in the books, too, about how the Immaculate theology is coherent and generally in line with observable reality, too, so trying to special-case this as something they don't know seems against both the specific writings and the general vibe and thrust of how things are presented.
I can't immediately find the exact citation for that last one, but I hope people will trust me on it with all the bits I did cite.
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- Denmark
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This actually originates with First Edition, but has been sort of twisted over time. The original Realm Historian Speaks in Exalted starts like so:
Article: Our history begins in a very dark place, both in that it was a time of evil and a time from which we know few hard facts. Most of the knowledge of the Old Realm was lost to the Contagion and the years afterward, and we find ourselves relying on folklore to compensate for lacunae in the ancient records. The understanding we arrive at when we look at these two sources is that the world we now inhabit was originally infested with great malevolent spirits or demons and their insidious thralls, whom we have come to call the Anathema.
The Anathema, it is said, used bizarre and unnatural rituals to steal power from the spirits of the sky—sun, moon and stars—as a means of proving their worth to their hideous masters. Once that inversion of the natural order took place, the Five Great Elemental Dragons realized that the loathsome elder gods and their powerful servants must be overcome if any progress or good were to come of this world. They regarded the nascent species called humanity, sought out the noblest warriors among them and breathed into them power over the elements. In that way were the Dragon-Blooded born. The Dragon-Blooded are the first and, despite what you may hear in certain mistranslated old folk-tales, the only Exalted. While we may take them for granted, it is important to remember that the Dragon-Blooded are our benefactors, our guides and our defenders.
So that seems pretty clear cut, however, we need to keep in mind that this is First Edition, and a lot of stuff is really not clear yet, so for example only a few pages from this we are told of the Immaculate Order that "Most of the order, however, is composed of the sons and daughters of patricians who did not gain land or title from their parents' inheritance", which it will take us approximately seven books (that is eight months in early 2000s language) to learn is complete nonsense and makes zero sense. I say this because this is clearly supposed to be a mortal source given how he refers to the Dragon-Blooded and also frequently makes inferences, so I would guess that this is not an "official" Immaculate version of history, merely a particular example of the kind of history that a private historian in the Realm could pierce together with the information that he would have access to and under the cultural worldview that he has grown up under.
I can easily believe that the Immaculates both know the truth, and could still be spouting utter lies to the average mortal living in the Realm about what really happened in the distant past.
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- Location
- Denmark
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- She/Her
I think that would probably not be very likely, and not very in tact with how the Immaculate religion is usually presented.
HalfTangible
Only half sane (it's less cringe)
- Location
- Valkyrie, Primus
So, from what I understand (this might just be a headcanon from my regular pod of players), the highest ranked Immaculates know the truth that the Solars are the Solar Exalted, chosen of the Unconquered Sun. But they also know that, for whatever reason, the Solars go mad if they hold their power, and so they must be culled. This is something that's only really told to the most zealous and high ranking monks. Others - including ordinary citizens - are told that the Solar and Lunar Exalted are demons that stole their power from the sun and moon and take over the body of their host.
But in both cases, they're also told the power is so immense and extreme that it corrupts the soul of the wielder. At first, a Solar or Lunar may seem like a good person with good intentions, when their soul is at its strongest and the demon/exaltation is at its weakest. In their early days they may even do some real good! But the longer they're allowed to exist, the more corrupt they will grow, the more evil they'll become, until their power undoes everything good they might have done and destroy all they hold dear.
It's like the Dark Side from Star Wars. Start out with good intent on the dark path, but before long it will destroy you and everything around you. Except *every* Jedi, without exception, eventually turns into Sidious/Vader. It's not their fault, but they have to be put down for the good of all.
I like this variation moreso than the idea that the Immaculate Faith is an outright lie. There's some real weight to it, and while there is a lie in where the Solars came from, the reason the Immaculates have to hunt them down is true and righteous (at least in theory). The truth feels less like a "aha everything you believed in was a lie", and more like a "okay it's more complicated than we say to the public". Which is fair.
But in both cases, they're also told the power is so immense and extreme that it corrupts the soul of the wielder. At first, a Solar or Lunar may seem like a good person with good intentions, when their soul is at its strongest and the demon/exaltation is at its weakest. In their early days they may even do some real good! But the longer they're allowed to exist, the more corrupt they will grow, the more evil they'll become, until their power undoes everything good they might have done and destroy all they hold dear.
It's like the Dark Side from Star Wars. Start out with good intent on the dark path, but before long it will destroy you and everything around you. Except *every* Jedi, without exception, eventually turns into Sidious/Vader. It's not their fault, but they have to be put down for the good of all.
I like this variation moreso than the idea that the Immaculate Faith is an outright lie. There's some real weight to it, and while there is a lie in where the Solars came from, the reason the Immaculates have to hunt them down is true and righteous (at least in theory). The truth feels less like a "aha everything you believed in was a lie", and more like a "okay it's more complicated than we say to the public". Which is fair.
mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
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- the bottom of a coffee cup
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It isn't just the highest ranked Immaculates but yeah, pretty much.
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- They/Them
Yeah, this one's very explicit in What Fire Hath Wrought:
You don't explain this to every single person who walks through, any more than I understand how my car's engine works, but anyone who would benefit from knowing "that is the same person she was before Exalting, just she's being driven mad no matter how normal she seems right now" can be told that. And it'll be true! The first time a Limit Break shows up, or the first time a Lunar goes "I gotta eat that guy's heart", it will instantly be easy to believe because the evidence is right there in front of you!
Any general take that the Immaculate doctrine is a house of cards or provably false in a fundamental way isn't really interacting with this edition's take on the religion. I love that it holds up, honestly. I've had a lot of fun playing devout Immaculates, ranging from a Sesus golden child to a minor Intou splinter group outcaste, and it would be frustrating instead of invigorating if I had to do all the legwork myself to explain how it works.
You don't explain this to every single person who walks through, any more than I understand how my car's engine works, but anyone who would benefit from knowing "that is the same person she was before Exalting, just she's being driven mad no matter how normal she seems right now" can be told that. And it'll be true! The first time a Limit Break shows up, or the first time a Lunar goes "I gotta eat that guy's heart", it will instantly be easy to believe because the evidence is right there in front of you!
Any general take that the Immaculate doctrine is a house of cards or provably false in a fundamental way isn't really interacting with this edition's take on the religion. I love that it holds up, honestly. I've had a lot of fun playing devout Immaculates, ranging from a Sesus golden child to a minor Intou splinter group outcaste, and it would be frustrating instead of invigorating if I had to do all the legwork myself to explain how it works.
UrsaTempest
Don't Panic!
I vaguely recall that version in 3E immaculate writeup, probably the Realm.
But what impression I got from reading 3E sourcebook is for the most part The Realm and Immaculate just don't traffic in outright lies. Like some misdirection and deception, sure, but not lies. So if you're sufficiently dedicated, you'll find buried deep in religious or historical text that yeah, Primordial War happened, Solar once ruled the Realm, Solar and Lunar are Exalted, Sidereal exist, etc etc.
As for multiple Exalted between Exigent and Liminal it's a bit hard for DB to consider themselves only Exalted tbh. Could see Immaculate Priest says it, but it's a little too easy to be disproven.
But what impression I got from reading 3E sourcebook is for the most part The Realm and Immaculate just don't traffic in outright lies. Like some misdirection and deception, sure, but not lies. So if you're sufficiently dedicated, you'll find buried deep in religious or historical text that yeah, Primordial War happened, Solar once ruled the Realm, Solar and Lunar are Exalted, Sidereal exist, etc etc.
As for multiple Exalted between Exigent and Liminal it's a bit hard for DB to consider themselves only Exalted tbh. Could see Immaculate Priest says it, but it's a little too easy to be disproven.
UrsaTempest
Don't Panic!
The impression I got is 'DB is only Exalted' is just plain not a thing, or whether it's should.
Critian Caceorte
Currently Suffering from Space-Time Narcolepsy
- Location
- Washington State
Maybe "Only Proper Exalted" would be a better term. Because, well, the Liminals are walking talking corpses, that's no good, the Exigents are the result of divine overreach into the realms of what is the Dragons' Blessing, Solars and Lunars are of course demonic in origin, and Sidereals don't exist of course! In comparison to that, a 20k+ Exalt Type, the most common type in all of Creation, that doesn't go crazy and limits the power of the gods to protect mortals is a far more pleasant kind of person to interact with.
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- Nova Scotia
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- She/Her
The Immaculate Order knows what Solars and Lunars are chosen by the Unconquered Sun and Luna, and the "possessed by a demon" thing is like, a metaphor for how their overwhelming power and Essence Fever drive a spiritually naive mortal to vainglorious excess or bestial madness. It's more of a lies-to-children explanation than it is an active secret or a deception. A common point of comparison is how like, how the Christian laity's understanding of what the Holy Trinity means and what a priest's understanding of what the Holy Trinity means can be very different. A monk or someone else with advanced religious instruction has the rigorous spiritual grounding to understand why they are always Anathema who needs to be killed, regardless of who they used to be or what they claim their intentions are. It's sometimes simpler to just tell people that that's literally not their loved one anymore, though.
Exigents and Liminals are like, sketchy and suspect for different reasons, but they do not fall under the same suspicion. Exigents are believed to have served the Anathema during the Solar Purge, but are not automatically Anathema themselves and can redeem this original sin through good service to or under the supervision of the Immaculate Order. Liminals are weird unclean little corpse Exalts, but they're also like... largely preoccupied with doing shit that the Immaculate Order approves of anyway. Hunting ghosts and undead, guarding the boundaries between Creation and the Underworld. Basically neither of these kinds of Exalts are treated as Anathema unless they start acting like it. This is more or less the default -- unless you're a Lunar, a Solar, or something that's sufficiently obviously a Solar recolour, you're given some benefit of the doubt before you're hunted down like a dangerous animal.
Rather than "proper" Exalts, I would describe it as like, Immaculates believe that Dragon-Blooded are the only kind of Exalt that is earned through spiritual ascent on the Perfected Hierarchy, and therefore other kinds of Exalts are inherently more sordid and suspect. A Dragon-Blooded can be declared Anathema as well, but they have to do some pretty bad shit while corrupting mortals, usually, based on the examples we have.
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Ex3's certainly more interested in giving the Immaculates a coherent world view than some tissue paper ideology that a sufficently educated person can dismantle in seconds, because now we've seen that reddit atheism is cringe and when those people get organised they actually start doing a lot of the bad things that religious institutions do.
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- Nova Scotia
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- She/Her
The one thing I think about sometimes is like, when you do sit down with an Immaculate and explain to them what a Sidereal is, it is actually very easy to make them conform to an Immaculate worldview. They are literally chosen from birth in a way that aligns very easily with how Immaculates view reincarnation, and they are like... in this role as servants of heaven who advice the Princes of the Earth rather than like, trying to supplant them or rule over them directly. Between that and there being obscure references to them in the Immaculate Texts you can point to, I imagine Bronze Faction Sidereals are very good at making this pitch at this point.
Critian Caceorte
Currently Suffering from Space-Time Narcolepsy
- Location
- Washington State
I think Power From Darkness is less surprising then the Unconquered Sun's actual panoply. Like, I was expecting the Godspear charm to be just "strong artifact that does aggravated to creatures of darkness," I wasn't expecting "No, it's just the charm from Glories of the Most High, minus the Valor bonus."
There's also Titan-Unleashing Clarion, Aegis of Unconquered Might, the only one I'm not seeing is the Laurel.
There's also Titan-Unleashing Clarion, Aegis of Unconquered Might, the only one I'm not seeing is the Laurel.
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Now I can get behind invoking the Unconquered Sun's panoply, Essence has to an extent collapsed the power tiers of the different Exalt types so their patron and virtue is a reasonable direction to look in. Admittedly something about a charm's inability to cause harm to the Yozis is weird in the context of the current edition (though I suppose there's an interesting interaction to be had with a Sidereal using Chains of Adorjan).
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I know it's basically impossible, but I kinda find myself wishing that the current team could rewrite the Solar charmset in Ex3, or at least add another companion.
The charms they're getting in ExEss are just very fun.
The charms they're getting in ExEss are just very fun.